Professional Cycling For the Fans - LOOK!! This is why Basso,Ulrich Out Of Tour:Drugs!!

I forgot to ask about your trip to Australia. :)
??? Did you just stay in Sydney, or get around a bit?

Coggee, Tamarama, Bondi, Wagga Wagga, Naranderra, usual tourist photo at the dog on the tuckerbox etc... Great time, great place, didnt want to come home, was actually looking for jobs in the paper, lol

Blood long way, but perhaps the greatest place on earth, so far....

Coggee, Tamarama, Bondi, Wagga Wagga, Naranderra, usual tourist photo at the dog on the tuckerbox etc... Great time, great place, didnt want to come home, was actually looking for jobs in the paper, lol...Bloody long way, but perhaps the greatest place on earth, so far....nice http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/images/smilies/thumb.gif You've probably seen more of the country the I have :)

The Court of Arbitration for Sport has given the Astana-Wurth team the go-ahead to race in the Tour de France. "CAS has rejected the request of ASO to stop the team Astana-Würth from starting the Tour de France," read the CAS official statement.
...
Spanish newspaper El Pais has published more names among the 58 riders involved in Operación Puerto. The list, which comes from the Spanish Civil Guard's official report on the doping probe, contains several big names, and there is a strong possibility that the Tour de France could be raced with a very different list of favourites.

Cyclingnews sources say that Spanish authorities have obtained blood tests from last year's Tour and compared them to the names on this list in order to confirm the matches to the blood found in the blood bags.

El Pais has alleged that Jan Ullrich, Roberto Heras, Oscar Sevilla, Joseba Beloki, Santiago Botero, Santi Pérez, Tyler Hamilton, Quique Gutierrez and Angel Edo are all mentioned in the 500 page report that will be delivered to the Spanish Secretary of State for Sport, Jaime Lissavetsky. In addition, Spanish radio Cadena Ser mentions that Ivan Basso and Rabobank riders Denis Menchov and Juan-Antonio Flecha are on the list. In total, 22 riders scheduled to take part in the Tour de France are on the list of 58. All the riders questioned by journalists so far have denied any involvement in the affair.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jun06/jun29news3


Edit: thanks everyone for your patience...The thread is back and running, and it is going to be stickied to make sure that the conversation is consolidated to one thread.

Thanks alot!
hi565

Menchov & Flecha are still on the roster.
Were they on the official list or was Spanish radio off on their roster. Or were Mencha & Flecha tainted to a lesser degree?

nice http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/images/smilies/thumb.gif You've probably seen more of the country the I have :)
Nevertheless, you've seen more of the sheep?

I'd give my left nut....

I'd give both of 'em. Damn things are a PITA and always getting in the way.

2004 Cadel Evans crashed the morning of the Prologue and broke his collar bone (hit a TV camera cable) and T-Mobile replaced him. This year the teams agreed that anyone who was sent home due to the doping investigation could not be replaced.

You're mixing up the Aussie rider Matthew White with Cadel Evans.

Nevertheless, you've seen more of the sheep?eh, not too many sheep in Melbourne, or in Victoria, for that matter
:)

You're mixing up the Aussie rider Matthew White with Cadel Evans.I still don't know exactly what happned there; were his hands stuck under the tri bars? Why didn't he put his hands out?

[QUOTE=Smoothie104]Ill post this again for the newcomers, read it and make your own decisions.... I am thinking about stopping my research and posting on the subject of doping, because, well... becuase it is starting to break my heart. When non riders used to ask me what I thought about it, I used to tell them everything I knew, but to be honest, I would rather say "I don't know anything about that, but what a great sport!"
QUOTE]


Smoothie I reposted that over at Dailypelotonforums.

Hope you don't mind. Great post.

I still don't know exactly what happned there; were his hands stuck under the tri bars? Why didn't he put his hands out?

You usually break your collarbone when you put your hand or forearm down to break your fall. The shock is transmitted up your arm to the shoulder breaking the collarbone.

MKahrl - you think Armstrong was the only clean rider out of all the major tour contenders of the last ten years?
Yes. He has been investigated to nearly to death and no evidence has been found - unlike the excluded riders.

So until you have some FACTS, lay off Armstrong.

And yet Lance does this for 7 years and never comes up positive. Hmmmm I wonder, maybe because he is clean and just works harder than everyone else.
I agree, but the disturbing thing to me is that all these top riders *also* came up clean. They weren't busted by testing, but by the Spanish national police doing an investigation that would make the FBI proud. (¡Viva la Guardia Civil!) If I recall some of the early stories, they were tipped off or we might never have found out about the doping.

As for Lance, he's been investigated too - several times - yet has been exonerated every time.

You usually break your collarbone when you put your hand or forearm down to break your fall. The shock is transmitted up your arm to the shoulder breaking the collarbone.thanks, but nah, this guy flipped arse-over at a very low speed on some TV communication cables, and landed on his head and shoulder, knocking himself out and busting his collar bone. He didn't get he hands out in front at all. There was footage of it

... There is the crux of the Lance debate. There are those who only want to believe the latter conclusion. They want a hero of Herculean proportion that was beyond reproach.
...
Just because he never failed a test doesn't mean he didn't dope, ...
I agree. But as has been pointed out, there are patterns that can be discerned when someone dopes. Especially, they out-perform themselves, showing sudden and/or unexpected improvements.

In Lance's case, he has been beating the crap out of other riders since he hit puberty. People who knew him them then said that if he could ever pull his head out of his backside he would be amazing. And that's what happened.

So unless someone wants to argue that Lance started doping as a child :eek: and has remained undetected all this time, there's no reason to suggest that he isn't simply an amazing athelete of "Herculean proportion".

Jan wasn't going to win anyways, he just can't climb anymore, its a fact...
You must not have seen the Tour de Suisse. :rolleyes:

Is there concrete proof? Why not run them now, then just DQ them later?
That's a question a lot of people will ask.

The answer is that, unfortunately for the presumption of innocence, cycling doesn't work that way. Even though it's an individual who wins, cycling is a team sport and team strategy depends on the individuals involved. For example, look at Team CSC. If Basso is under a cloud and subject to disqualification, then there is a disincentive to support him for the GC. The team might be better off supporting Bobby Julich who would (presumably) not lose whatever place they earned.

If American football worked this way, the Falcons could play in the Super Bowl, but even if they won and Mike Vick were later to be disqualified, they'd lose the trophy and prize money. Wouldn't they go with their backup quarterback instead? It's a tough call, and the TdF teams have unanimously decided to go with their backup players.

Remember Clinton: "I will say at only once. I never had sex with that woman." Later on, let's debate if a small b... job is considered as sex or not...
"small"?? Are you impugning our 'beloved' ex-President?

Some of you have put back my faith,the jury system does not work.

Do I smell a troll? I don't believe testicular cancer can be caused by any doping.
Steroids.


In Lance's case, he has been beating the crap out of other riders since he hit puberty. People who knew him them then said that if he could ever pull his head out of his backside he would be amazing. And that's what happened.

So unless someone wants to argue that Lance started doping as a child and has remained undetected all this time, there's no reason to suggest that he isn't simply an amazing athelete of "Herculean proportion".
Christ you are so disgustingly ignorant. Try and find me another rider in the top ten at the TdF that didn’t have exactly the same experiences as a child. Valverde never lost a race as a Junior. Pantani aged 15 beat all the local pros on the climbs near his house.

Pro cyclists are genetic freaks who are better than all of us before they dope. Then they turn pro and dope to keep up with all the other pros who are also doping. Armstrong is no different.

Christ you are so disgustingly ignorant.
Sincitycycler??? Is that you????

Steroids.



Steroids don't usually cause cancer - esp. the kind Lance had. They typically shrink the 'nads. One of our local Docs can explain it better, but I've heard cancer docs talk about it. But if you're looking for doping that does cause cancer I'd look at human growth hormones.

Basso is linked to the list by the name of his dog and Valverde is linked in the same way. From an article I just read the only reason Valverde hasn't been banned at this point is because the last reference to the name of his dog was in 2004.
cyclingnews indicates that Basso was kicked out and not Valverde because they have additional evidence of Basso's involvement besides the coded notebooks: he was discussed during telephone calls.

One presumes that is the reason only nine were banned instead of the 58 reportedly named in the documents.

Christ you are so disgustingly ignorant. Personal attack, the refuge of the rhetorically deficient. :) (Though my post was ignorant in that Lance wasn't beating cyclists back then, he was beating triatheletes.)

As to the actual substance of your post, are you claiming that Valverde and Pantani have/had been doping since they were children? That's the only way your logic works. :rolleyes:

I started a thread a few weeks back "Why the French Suck". In it I theorized that the French haven't done well in cycling since the Festina Affair because France really cracked down on doping. Wouldn't it be interesting if the French have a great Tour this year?
What will it mean when the Americans have a terrific tour? (Bobke's predicting an all-American podium.) Will it mean that the US is clean? or that we have superior technology?


Whatever, the French will continue to suck.

Yes. He has been investigated to nearly to death and no evidence has been found - unlike the excluded riders.

So until you have some FACTS, lay off Armstrong.

It's a first here at BF, we have a "Lancerbator" and a troll rolled into one. Gotta love Summer.

Every rider implicated in this scandal has been tested multiple times, using the same techniques as Launce. Tests are useless, the doctors are always ahead of them No argument from me on that one. (Except that the tests aren't useless - they make doping harder.)


- it is AS LIKELY that Armstrong doped as Basso, Ullrich, Mancebo, Virenque, Pantani, Brouchard, Jalabert, Hinault etc etc etc. It is NOT! We have hard evidence that some on your list dope(d). There is no such evidence for Lance. All we have is the calumny and fuzzy thinking from such as you.

Really, why is it so important to believe that a great champion cheated? Because he's American?

LA must have magical powers to cheat 7 times and not get caught as all others fall by the side getting caught. Its the mystery of the century how he did it. For as good as LeMond was,i wonder if he doped?

... There are two competing camps on Lance now.

Those who think he's a genetic freak and beat everyone fair and square. The other contenders were forced to dope to try to compete with him.

He doped just like the rest of them.

I'm still in the first camp. This is getting so big that I think someone may in fact blow the whistle and I'm reserving judgment until that moment.
+1 Insightful.

But while many will think the "genetic freak" bit is supposed to explain the dominance (and thus stretch credulity), it must be remembered that Lance rode behind the best team on the planet for 4 or 5 of his victories. IMO on a weaker team he might have won only four, had he even attempted that many.

Personal attack, the refuge of the rhetorically deficient. (Though my post was ignorant in that Lance wasn't beating cyclists back then, he was beating triatheletes.)
There is no personal attack. Your post was both ignorant and disgusting. Ignorant in that you assume that no other elite athletes experienced a period as a junior wherte they beat everyone. And disgusting because anyone who posts so confidently on a cycling forum but clearly has very very little knowledge of the sport is repulsive to all right-thinking people. Your post had 'I just put down the Lance Armstrong book' written all over it.


As to the actual substance of your post, are you claiming that Valverde and Pantani have/had been doping since they were children? That's the only way your logic works.
Explain to me in detail how it doesn’t work in the other way.


It is NOT! We have hard evidence that some on your list dope(d). There is no such evidence for Lance. All we have is the calumny and fuzzy thinking from such as you.
And a sworn court testimony, and a test of his urine from 1999 and links with Ferrari and I also have insider knowledge from people who have trained with the Postal team. Feel free to PM me for the details. I'm a UK racer who knows many people who train with pros on mainland Europe.


Really, why is it so important to believe that a great champion cheated? Because he's American?
Read the rest of my posts in this thread for the reasons I object to Armstrong doping and winning and why I don’t mind Lemond or all the other American champions doping and cheating.

You bitten off more than you can chew with me. You're new round here right? :)

I'm very dissapointed that the decision was to suspend Jan Ullrich, he's worked very hard in prep for what was going to be a challenging tour amongst some amazing cyclists like Ivan Basso. I think he should be allowed to continue riding until proven guilty, it would be sad to see him have to retire on such a note. Practically a disaster... I'm also not happy that the managers were faced with pressure to relieve the cyclists under suspicion.

This year the teams agreed that anyone who was sent home due to the doping investigation could not be replaced. I recall that's in the ProTour ethical compacts that all teams signed. This is being spun that the teams got together on their own and "unanimously agreed" to do X. Where X is what they were contractually obligated to do anyway... :rolleyes:

Daym, fireworks before the 4th, can you guys hold off for a while so I can get some popcorn? :)

No argument from me on that one. (Except that the tests aren't useless - they make doping harder.)

It is NOT! We have hard evidence that some on your list dope(d). There is no such evidence for Lance. All we have is the calumny and fuzzy thinking from such as you.

Really, why is it so important to believe that a great champion cheated? Because he's American?


See my thread entitled "dopers ahead of the testers" in the TdF Sub forum. Read it, investigate it, get back to us.

I recall that's in the ProTour ethical compacts that all teams signed. This is being spun that the teams got together on their own and "unanimously agreed" to do X. Where X is what they were contractually obligated to do anyway... :rolleyes:

Actually the ProTour code of conduct only requires them to suspend any rider under investagation. The teams agreed to not replace any sent home riders for the Tour.

Hey Jan ... Ivan !

We're collecting $$ to give to **** so you guys can come over and ride [B]SUPERWEEK[B] here in Wisconsin.

Pack your bags, the beer and brats are on us !!

:beer:

jw

Rider's get their own blood drawn.... they get the oxygen carrying red blood cells "spinned" out in a lab procedure and then their plasma put back in. Later when needed (TDF etc.) they get their red blood cells put back in their body. This gives them a greater ability to conduct aerobic activity (more oxygen being able to get to muscles).

The problemn is that all the extra cell matter clogs their arteries, veins and cappiallries and during exercise and since you are sweating a lot of water your blood volume thickens. This thick paste can then casuse strokes and heart attacks.

That is why the hematocrit level (amount of red blood cells in a set amount of blood) is checked on riders. A level of 50 or greater is doping and means suspension....

OP, I hope the spanish know what they are doing..... If they suspend all the top riders and later on they find out nothing happend,then there are going to be HUGE law suits for slander etc...... Looks like Lance got out at the right time.


Blood packing has been superseded by EPO.

The points competition is now the race to watch.

Here's a name nobody mentions for top ten, but I think now will be there, maybe even top 5....

Danilo Di Luca from Leaky Gas.

No way, it's George Hincapie all the way. Bob Roll called it. ;)


While I'm disappointed the Tour won't have Jan or Ivan, it will still be a great Tour, a great Tour.


For my wife, it's like three weeks of the Superbowl. :D

It's not so much that these guys dope, over the past few years I've learned to accept this fact, it's the timing of the bust. Had this happened in January and not the eve of the Tour it would have been one thing but this has now ruined the race for me.

In the bigger picture the timing may be just what cycling needs. The Tour will give even more coverage to this epidemic and maybe, just maybe, the teams and riders will start to move away from chemically assisted racing. I don't hold out much hope that it this will cause a massive change in the way the peloton races, but you never know.

As for Vino's chances for overall they are gone. There are too many good riders with full teams for him to have a chance, Disco, Evans, Valverde, Levi, Flandis, and a few others.

I think the timing was perfect. I feel the investigators gathered as much info. and evidence as they could before the Tour but dropped the bomb early enough to have the suspected riders pulled from the race. If they'd waited till after the Tour, the results would have had to be changed and that would suck. The evidence against these riders has to be pretty strong; you don't spend millions and risk serious damage to your reputation as a sponsor on a rider who gets caught doping. And since Ulrich was suspended first, the door was wide open for Basso to take the Tour, if he had nothing to fear from the allegations.

I for one am glad the teams made the decision to pull their riders rather than slog it out in court only to have them guilty later.

Dude, none of these riders have ever come up positive. They've not failed a test, they've been implicated by a police investigation into a doping ring. The very fact that these doping riders have passed multiple tests just reinforces the utter stupidity of the 'Armstrong never tested positive' argument, and testing in general.


You do know that for the past 5-6 years at least there's been a test for EPO that doesn't just rely on hematocrit levels? Even if somebody's crit levels are below 50, if they've been taking synthetic EPO it would be detected.

You mentioned masking agents; can you name any that are effective in masking synthetic EPO?

Nobody from Discover... is that 'cause they bring their junk from home?


Can you not imagine how thoroughly the American's baggage is checked by the French customs agents?

Cut It OUT with the personal attacks. Keep this clean. I dont want to have to close this thread but I will if this keeps going.

Thank you

hi565
Forum Moderator

You don't honestly believe that do you? Eki? Eki isn't there to try to win this thing. Salvo? Maybe but the truth is they have known all season that George is their man this year and the only hickup was the Pairs-Roubaix crash. Popo isn't ready yet from everything I have seen and read.

Small wager?

Damn straight. George is the man. Eki is 40. He's there because he loves to ride. Salvodelli sucked big time in the Giro(he may have been sick but he still sucked). Acevedo? Maybe but my money is still on Hincapie.

That was one hell of a Prologue. Too bad about Landis' flat tire, he would've been 3 or 4. Doesn't really matter; his team is stoked and so is Team Discovery.

$100 on Hincapie to the first person that takes me up on it. PM me after posting on this thread. I'll either send you a check or cash or send the money to the charity of your choice. (mods, if wagering on the BF is a no-no, please say so if a nice way)

You do know that for the past 5-6 years at least there's been a test for EPO that doesn't just rely on hematocrit levels? Even if somebody's crit levels are below 50, if they've been taking synthetic EPO it would be detected.

You mentioned masking agents; can you name any that are effective in masking synthetic EPO?


the EPO used to be micro dosed, small daily doses that would stay below the threshold for a positive test. This method was Allegedly taught by Michele Ferrari. It required having EPO around a lot of the times when you didnt want it, ie during a race. The old School Blood Transfusions youre hearing about rely on the EPO, its taken in mass, for about a week, leaving basically 10 to 11 days when you will test positive. Then the enriched blood is withdrawn, concentrated and saved for re infusion at a later date.

The metabolites from synthetic EPO are indistinquishable from Natural after about 3 to 4 days.

Once you upped the HCT undetected, and withdrawn the blood, you only have to sneak it back in, no EPO test is going to catch this.

This is why the EPO positives seem to come from out of competition testing, and the Funny Blood Cell counts show up during the race testing.

the EPO used to be micro dosed, small daily doses that would stay below the threshold for a positive test. This method was Allegedly taught by Michele Ferrari. It required having EPO around a lot of the times when you didnt want it, ie during a race. The old School Blood Transfusions youre hearing about rely on the EPO, its taken in mass, for about a week, leaving basically 10 to 11 days when you will test positive. Then the enriched blood is withdrawn, concentrated and saved for re infusion at a later date.

The metabolites from synthetic EPO are indistinquishable from Natural after about 3 to 4 days.

Once you upped the HCT undetected, and withdrawn the blood, you only have to sneak it back in, no EPO test is going to catch this.

This is why the EPO positives seem to come from out of competition testing, and the Funny Blood Cell counts show up during the race testing.

Thank you.

Yeah, I'd like to know how much it costs too....do you think my medical Insurance might cover it?
:D :D

the EPO used to be micro dosed, small daily doses that would stay below the threshold for a positive test. This method was Allegedly taught by Michele Ferrari. It required having EPO around a lot of the times when you didnt want it, ie during a race. The old School Blood Transfusions youre hearing about rely on the EPO, its taken in mass, for about a week, leaving basically 10 to 11 days when you will test positive. Then the enriched blood is withdrawn, concentrated and saved for re infusion at a later date.

The metabolites from synthetic EPO are indistinquishable from Natural after about 3 to 4 days.

Once you upped the HCT undetected, and withdrawn the blood, you only have to sneak it back in, no EPO test is going to catch this.

This is why the EPO positives seem to come from out of competition testing, and the Funny Blood Cell counts show up during the race testing.

I think a lot of people get caught up in the idea that because someone doesn't test positive, then there is no way that they are doping. The whole point of these scandals is that they specifically doing things to avoid testing positive. I've gotten to the point that when I hear about someone testing positive, I believe its because they made a mistake in there regimine or they're just stupid.

I'm a big Lance fan. But I'm finding it harder and harder to believe that he wasn't doing something when he was crushing guys like Ulrich and Basso for the last 7 years. I don't think less of him because its obvious that a good portion, if not all, of the top competition were. Barry Bonds, Big Mac, and Sammy Sosa never tested positive. Neither has Marion Jones. Flo Jo never did...

I'm almost to a point where I think they ought to just let them take whatever it is they want. Its obvious that the governing bodies in all professional sports will never be completely on top of what athletes are taking.

They didnt test pos because they were taking something they were not even testing for.

They didnt test pos because they were taking something they were not even testing for.

That's the whole point. Even when tests are developed, they find new ways to defeat them. If someone gets caught, its because they made a mistake in they're formula or they're just stupid. There's always something new on the horizon....

I'm almost to a point where I think they ought to just let them take whatever it is they want. Its obvious that the governing bodies in all professional sports will never be completely on top of what athletes are taking.

I'm the same way. Let 'em dope themselves to hell for all I care. If Tom Simpson isn't a good enough reminder of what can happen, whatever.

For example, Lance: He has a lot of accusers and has so far been more or less Teflon, but ultimately his pride should be unfettered if he didn't dope (HE knows the truth - whatever it is - no matter how many accusations come his way), but if he DID dope, he gets the dubious pleasure of living a total lie for the rest of his life. Worth it? Maybe if you don't have a soul (OR if you know that literally everyone in the pro peloton does it!)

What's funny to me is hearing people say things like "Oh, this is great! Now we get a drug-free TdF 2006!" My ass. This is just who was caught in this one case. It doesn't make the rest of the peloton totally innocent, and anyone who thinks that is true, despite the "innocent until guilty" cliche, is off their rocker.

Personally, I think they all dope and we should let them. This whole action has turned this race into the "Bore de France" for me. I don't give a damn who wins the GC now.