The Court of Arbitration for Sport has given the Astana-Wurth team the go-ahead to race in the Tour de France. "CAS has rejected the request of ASO to stop the team Astana-Würth from starting the Tour de France," read the CAS official statement.
...
Spanish newspaper El Pais has published more names among the 58 riders involved in Operación Puerto. The list, which comes from the Spanish Civil Guard's official report on the doping probe, contains several big names, and there is a strong possibility that the Tour de France could be raced with a very different list of favourites.
Cyclingnews sources say that Spanish authorities have obtained blood tests from last year's Tour and compared them to the names on this list in order to confirm the matches to the blood found in the blood bags.
El Pais has alleged that Jan Ullrich, Roberto Heras, Oscar Sevilla, Joseba Beloki, Santiago Botero, Santi Pérez, Tyler Hamilton, Quique Gutierrez and Angel Edo are all mentioned in the 500 page report that will be delivered to the Spanish Secretary of State for Sport, Jaime Lissavetsky. In addition, Spanish radio Cadena Ser mentions that Ivan Basso and Rabobank riders Denis Menchov and Juan-Antonio Flecha are on the list. In total, 22 riders scheduled to take part in the Tour de France are on the list of 58. All the riders questioned by journalists so far have denied any involvement in the affair.
Edit: thanks everyone for your patience...The thread is back and running, and it is going to be stickied to make sure that the conversation is consolidated to one thread.
Thanks alot!
hi565
Helmet Head
06-29-06, 05:23 PM
Several sources indicate that the official information on the 58 (or 56) riders implicated in the scandal will be available by Friday, June 30, at 9.30am European time, when the Spanish judge will release the investigation documents, already believed to have been handed out to the Spanish minister for Sport, Jaime Lissavetzky. Of those named, a total of 22 cyclists are rumoured to be on the Tour de France start list. "Those riders named in the dossier will not be allowed to start," said Patrick Lefévčre, president of the professional team's association AIGCP and manager of team Quick.Step.
If Lefévčre is right, and the leaked reports are accurate, Basso and Ullrich will not start!!!
pedex
06-29-06, 05:30 PM
good, this is a decent step towards cleaning up the elite pro racing mess
Jakey
06-29-06, 05:56 PM
If all those guys doped...there is no way armstrong didn't.
pedex
06-29-06, 07:32 PM
Armstrong is probably dirty as can be, in MY opinion. Again, ive posted this before, find me someone who's never ever even heard of EPO or any performance enhancing drugs that can put out 450 watts for an hour or about 6.7-6.9 watts per kilo, it wont happen. You dont get to those kind of power levels naturally, nor has anyone EVER been able to sustain them for more than a few weeks. Then there's the INCREASING hemacrit levels DURING a stage race, explain that !! Even Armstrong has pulled off that miracle. Sorry, it doesnt fly, it defies all logic and convention. Someone want to explain away why ALL the top race teams have a huge supply of syringes and IV equipment around? What? Just to supply fluids after each stage? Please, im not buying it. I would think after the docs showing Hamilton's rather intense doping schedule some doubters might think twice. We've all seen athletes claim not doping then turn around and either get caught or die from the side effects, hardly an isolated case of just a few here and there. Are there clean riders, sure, Im sure some of the pack fodder doesnt dope, or not regularly, why? cause its damn expensive, about $1100-$2000 per month for an HGH and EPO program, some teams and riders simply cant afford it, some U23 guys only make $10k a year !! You get into the big leagues where guys have million dollar plus sponsors and good salaries and its chump change.
DrPete
06-29-06, 07:42 PM
Then there's the INCREASING hemacrit levels DURING a stage race, explain that !! Even Armstrong has pulled off that miracle. Sorry, it doesnt fly, it defies all logic and convention.
Actually, if you become dehydrated over time, your hematocrit will go up. I had a patient who had a hematocrit of 47 until I rehydrated her--then it went to 36. Overnight.
I'm also no exercise physiologist, but there may be some physiologic effect of going all-out for 3 weeks that would lead to a hematocrit rise. But that's just guessing--I have nothing to back that one up.
DrPete
pathdoc
06-29-06, 08:27 PM
Dr. Pete is right on. Dehydration will raise your hematocrit. I don't know how they can possibly rehydrate each day and start again the next day.
cooker
06-29-06, 08:31 PM
Dr. Pete is right on. Dehydration will raise your hematocrit. I don't know how they can possibly rehydrate each day and start again the next day.
They couldn't race day after day unless they could re-hydrate.
pedex
06-29-06, 08:41 PM
Well, they do these tests usually about the same time each day--end of a stage plus some random tests thrown in, and over the course of a stage race their hemacrit generally has a downward trend, it slowly drops, then every once in awhile you get some that all of a sudden jump 10-12 points--and usually before a TT :D May or may not be an obvious pattern, ive never been able to get enough data to plot all the riders, they dont publish this stuff that much. Call it a working theory of mine :) I just find it hard to deny when you watch a guy go for like 2 weeks and starts at like 49.x then drops to the low 40's to high 30's then shows up all of sudden back at 48 or 49.x, micro dosing EPO has already been shown to work and avoid detection most of the time, still a crap shoot.
fruitless
06-30-06, 02:03 AM
whoa, now this is entertainment
Devil
06-30-06, 02:06 AM
LOL
" T-Mobile has suspended Jan Ullrich, Oscar Sevilla and Rudy Pevenage in the wake of the Operacion Puerto affair. The three were implicated in the doping scandal as being clients of Dr Eufemiano Fuentes. None of them will take part in the Tour de France."
If its true I think this will also mean that Simoni won the Giro!!
PedalMasher
06-30-06, 02:12 AM
dammit! Basso better be gone too! Or this WILL be a yawner
EURO
06-30-06, 02:13 AM
Basso hasn't been withdrawn, he's been implicated.
Devil
06-30-06, 02:14 AM
Yes, those were just lists of people who are implicated. Only Ullrich (and Sevilla) are officially out for now. I suspect Basso won't be starting the Tour either, though.
fruitless
06-30-06, 02:18 AM
. . .ok, T-mobile suspends hijo rudicio and rudy, but it sounds like the Spaniards have the goods on Basso too, they found the key to the codes and something about wiretaps, my spanish isn't that good. Remarkable how disco dodged the bullet yet again.
PedalMasher
06-30-06, 02:19 AM
Basso will win w/o Ullrich participating and it will be tainted waaay beyond the Barry Bonds home run record.
I predict he will drop. Especially with all the goods the Spanish apparently have on him. Wiretap?
It's better than winning it and having it taken away.
fruitless
06-30-06, 02:42 AM
from cadenaSER radio:
Son cuatro cajas de folios, de las que se ha levantado el secreto para tres. La Guardia Civil ha identificado los códigos con los que el doctor Eufemiano Fuentes camuflaba en sus libretas los nombres de los cicilistas que hacían uso de sus servicios. La lista es de poco más de cincuenta corredores y, de momento, sólo hay ciclistas.
En esa lista están Jan Ullrich, Ivan Basso, Francisco Mancebo, Joseba Beloki, Roberto Heras, Tyler Hamilton, Santi Pérez, Santiago Botero, Quique Gutierrez, y así hasta 56 ciclistas.
El secretario de Estado para el Deporte, Jaime Lissavetzky, se va reunir mańana con el ministro de Deportes francés y es posible que la organización tome medidas muy dureas e impida la salida de todos estos corredores.
LA LISTA DE LOS PRESUNTAMENTE IMPLICADOS
ASTANÁ WURTH
MICHELE SCARPONI
MARCOS SERRANO
DAVID ETXEBARRIA
JOSEBA BELOKI
ANGEL VICIOSO
ISIDRO NOZAL
UNAI OSA
JAKSCHE JOORG
C.S.C.
IVAN BASSO
Caisse D'Espagne Illes Balears
CONSTANTINO ZABALLA
Saunier Duval
CARLOS ZARATE
AG2 R
FRANCISCO MANCEBO
T-Mobile
JAN ULLRICH
OSCAR SEVILLA
Phonak
JOSE ENRIQUE GUTIERREZ
JOSE IGNACIO GUTIERREZ
Comunitat Valenciana
VICENTE BALLESTER
DAVID BERNABEU
DAVID BLANCO RODRIGUEZ
JOSE ADRIAN BONILLLA
JUAN GOMIS LOPEZ
ELADIO JIMENEZ
DAVID LATASA
JAVIER PASCUAL
RUBEN PLAZA
J.LUIS M. JIMENEZ
Unibet.com
GARCIA QUESADA
Actualmente retirados o suspendidos por dopaje
ROBERTO HERAS
ANGEL CASERO
SANTIAGO PEREZ
TYLER HAMILTON
Dead Roman
06-30-06, 02:43 AM
tey should just suspend everyone and not have the tour. Every rider wirth a damn is doping and everyone knows it. If JAN doesent get to compete im never watching bicycle racing again.
****ing lame.
PedalMasher
06-30-06, 02:50 AM
I don't see how they will let anyone on the list start. I want to see the other half of the names!
adamastor
06-30-06, 03:15 AM
tey should just suspend everyone and not have the tour. Every rider wirth a damn is doping and everyone knows it. If JAN doesent get to compete im never watching bicycle racing again.
****ing lame.
Out of 198, it will be between 15 and 24 riders that will be out. I don't know where you live but the Tour is bigger than a rider. It has survived wars, doping scandals, it will survive this. You know why? Because even without Ullrich, Basso and Vinokourov, there will be MILLIONS on the roads watching it. And I'm happy for the clean riders, that have talent, but were always doomed to 5th or 6th places due to cheating by others. I'll watch the Tour, because in the Alpes, you will still have a fantastic fight between X and Y. I don't give a damn if it is Ullrich against Basso.
Dove15
06-30-06, 03:17 AM
I dont understand this, surely Jan's been tested hundreds of times at severals tours, how could he possibly never get caught until now???
EURO
06-30-06, 03:31 AM
I dont understand this, surely Jan's been tested hundreds of times at severals tours, how could he possibly never get caught until now???
Because everyone is doping and everyone knows how to get round the tests.
Dead Roman
06-30-06, 03:32 AM
Out of 198, it will be between 15 and 24 riders that will be out. I don't know where you live but the Tour is bigger than a rider. It has survived wars, doping scandals, it will survive this. You know why? Because even without Ullrich, Basso and Vinokourov, there will be MILLIONS on the roads watching it. And I'm happy for the clean riders, that have talent, but were always doomed to 5th or 6th places due to cheating by others. I'll watch the Tour, because in the Alpes, you will still have a fantastic fight between X and Y. I don't give a damn if it is Ullrich against Basso.
5th or 6th places??? LOL thats hilarious. you sir are not living in reality. The numbers would be more along the lines of The top 30 or40 are all doping. Top 10... i can tell you with 100% certainty that the top 10 are doping.
Dove15
06-30-06, 03:34 AM
Because everyone is doping and everyone knows how to get round the tests.
And how do they manage to get around the tests?
EURO
06-30-06, 03:35 AM
And how do they manage to get around the tests?
Carefully timed micro-dosing, masking agents - lots of usuage off-season while training and where tests are not often carried out etc etc. Read 'Breaking The Chain' by Willy Voet.
Dove15
06-30-06, 03:36 AM
Thanks for the book, will look into it.
So Lance could of been cheating this whole time and no one would have known?
DrPete
06-30-06, 04:03 AM
5th or 6th places??? LOL thats hilarious. you sir are not living in reality. The numbers would be more along the lines of The top 30 or40 are all doping. Top 10... i can tell you with 100% certainty that the top 10 are doping.
And that 100% certainty comes from what body of evidence?
DrPete
daytonian
06-30-06, 04:14 AM
I hate to say it but this opens up a broader field to win which will make the race better w/Vino, Flandis and Cunego all at forefront now. Floyd's lickin his chops right now.
johnnny
06-30-06, 04:16 AM
Carefully timed micro-dosing, masking agents - lots of usuage off-season while training and where tests are not often carried out etc etc. Read 'Breaking The Chain' by Willy Voet.
Probably the only time I will ever agree with EURO.
I think the way that most riders have been cheating the system is by using it all in the off-season, in conjunction with undetectable masking agents, then storing the doped blood for use during the Tour/Classics
Dove15
06-30-06, 04:18 AM
Probably the only time I will ever agree with EURO.
I think the way that most riders have been cheating the system is by using it all in the off-season, in conjunction with undetectable masking agents, then storing the doped blood for use during the Tour/Classics
Storing the doped blood? Sorry could you elaborate on that, i dont have a great understanding about all this.
domestique
06-30-06, 04:26 AM
Storing the doped blood? Sorry could you elaborate on that, i dont have a great understanding about all this.
Rider's get their own blood drawn.... they get the oxygen carrying red blood cells "spinned" out in a lab procedure and then their plasma put back in. Later when needed (TDF etc.) they get their red blood cells put back in their body. This gives them a greater ability to conduct aerobic activity (more oxygen being able to get to muscles).
The problemn is that all the extra cell matter clogs their arteries, veins and cappiallries and during exercise and since you are sweating a lot of water your blood volume thickens. This thick paste can then casuse strokes and heart attacks.
That is why the hematocrit level (amount of red blood cells in a set amount of blood) is checked on riders. A level of 50 or greater is doping and means suspension....
OP, I hope the spanish know what they are doing..... If they suspend all the top riders and later on they find out nothing happend,then there are going to be HUGE law suits for slander etc...... Looks like Lance got out at the right time.
Dove15
06-30-06, 04:28 AM
Thanks for clearing that up for me. And do you think alot of riders are doing this?
Matt White just said on Australian radio that both have been sent home!!
I don't think Basso has been sent home (at this time of writing). Team owner Bjarne Riis has said however, that Ivan Basso will be fired if he had anything to do with Dr. Fuentes.
(Edit: it is official now, Ivan Basso is out)
--
Regards
domestique
06-30-06, 04:44 AM
Thanks for clearing that up for me. And do you think alot of riders are doing this?
yes (this has been going on for decades).... I think to compete at that level you have too.... no way can someone ride at 100% for 3 weeks straight without doping. Do I care? not really..... I feel everyone is doping (even lance) so the playing field is now even.
I do feel sorry for the poor kids that are not pro.... or even the (poorly paid pro riders) that can barely afford to make ends meat let alone pay thousands of dollars for doping treatments.
Dove15
06-30-06, 04:47 AM
yes (this has been going on for decades).... I think to compete at that level you have too.... no way can someone ride at 100% for 3 weeks straight without doping. Do I care? not really..... I feel everyone is doping (even lance) so the playing field is now even.
I do feel sorry for the poor kids that are not pro.... or even the (poorly paid pro riders) that can barely afford to make ends meat let alone pay thousands of dollars for doping treatments.
So a person aspiring to that level without using drugs is kidding themselves?
Dove15
06-30-06, 04:51 AM
And btw, are growth hormones, EPO etc. hard to get hold of?
Grasschopper
06-30-06, 04:54 AM
And people doubted George Hincapie's chances for winning the Tour this year. Look to me like they are getting better every day.
domestique
06-30-06, 05:06 AM
So a person aspiring to that level without using drugs is kidding themselves?
Not totally.... I beleive there are some "clean" people out there.... are they winning race after race?..... prolly not. I hope Landis, Hincapie and Levi make it through ok... I would love to see an all american podium.
And btw, are growth hormones, EPO etc. hard to get hold of?
These people know all the secrets.. know who to talk to etc. Look at the riders that just got banned.... all had the same doc.... I'm sure most riders know who dopes in the peloton but does not come forward (cycling union/code)
Dove15
06-30-06, 05:10 AM
Would these drugs be available to amateurs, there are a few people I suspect at the state championships. Is this assumption unlikely, or is it possible for these low-profile riders to do such a thing.
domestique
06-30-06, 05:16 AM
Would these drugs be available to amateurs, there are a few people I suspect at the state championships. Is this assumption unlikely, or is it possible for these low-profile riders to do such a thing.
If they have the cash... and really want to win... I would expect some Cat1 riders..... the thing is that these lower Cats are never tested. So it would be really easy to get away with it.
Dove15
06-30-06, 05:17 AM
How much roughly does it cost?
interested
06-30-06, 05:18 AM
What I find strange about Ivan Basso involvement in the Spanish doping affair, is not that he was doping, but that he seems to have done it on his own. I would always have thought, that if Basso was using dope, it would be under Bjarne Riis' strict control.
This will be a crazy TdF. But looking on the bright side, I think we will have a much more old fashionend TdF, with much less time between the top contenders, so the race will be much more exciting than usual.
--
Regards
GuitarWizard
06-30-06, 05:20 AM
Wow...a race between George, Floyd, and Levi.....this could be interesting. Granted, not as much fun to watch without Basso, Vino and Jan, but it's better than nothing I guess. Maybe Julich could be thrown into the mix as well.
domestique
06-30-06, 05:26 AM
How much roughly does it cost?
A couple thousand dollars... hence the reason not a lot of amateur riders and low grade pro are doping.
Wow...a race between George, Floyd, and Levi.....this could be interesting. Granted, not as much fun to watch without Basso, Vino and Jan, but it's better than nothing I guess. Maybe Julich could be thrown into the mix as well.
Vino too? I thought he was still safe... this is going to be a very interesting tour!!!!
EURO
06-30-06, 05:28 AM
And people doubted George Hincapie's chances for winning the Tour this year. Look to me like they are getting better every day.
LOL
Dove15
06-30-06, 05:29 AM
Surely there wouldnt be many people around locally, to give athletes access to such drugs.
domestique
06-30-06, 05:30 AM
Surely there wouldnt be many people around locally, to give athletes access to such drugs.
all depends who their friends and contacts were.... all you need is a friend who is a Dr. that treats cancer patients to get EPO.
Grasschopper
06-30-06, 05:34 AM
If JimBob down at the local gym and little Billy still in HS can get steroids a plenty any rider that wants this stuff and has the cash can get it.