General Cycling Discussion - Chemical Weapons

I have Miniature Daschunds as pets. They stand all of four inches tall and weigh about nine lbs. Once, one of my kids accidently left the front door open and one of my dogs ran into the front yard, violating my cities leash law all to hell.

Then, the little demon dared to bark at a cyclist, who happened to be a member of the 82nd Airborne, America's Guard of Honor. He immediately pulled out his can of HALT and sprayed my dog with CS spray, which is what HALT is and what the UN classifies as chemical weapon.

I often ride in rural areas. I've been chased by Great Danes, St. Bernards and nearly everything smaller. I understand the frustration of cyclists bothered by the pets of scofflaws. What I can't understand is the irrational hatred some folks display at dogs. My god, if you can't out run a d_mn weiner dog, then you need to retire.

That's the kind of Soldier that we should be sending to Iraq, then we can give Saddam a clear message that he F$&+++@ck with the U.S. OF A

Originally posted by amerpie
I understand the frustration of cyclists bothered by the pets of scofflaws. What I can't understand is the irrational hatred some folks display at dogs. My god, if you can't out run a d_mn weiner dog, then you need to retire.

It doesn't seem like irrational hatred if you have ever had a dog take some flesh off of your leg.

Hatred? I dunno about that, but irrational? No. It's rational.

I've been bitten by a collie on my paper route , when I was kid in New Bern, NC in the 70's. You know, I had to ride the very same street the very next day. I was 12.

Was I scared? YES. Was there a way to deal with this without hurting the dog? YES.

If you like chemical weapons, find the owner of the scary monster and spray him with CS.


BTW, when I was young enlisted man defending the US against Gorbachev and the Evil Empire, I got to experience CS gas. I got to do it again when I went through the NC Justice Academy after I got out of the Army. Like I said, if you can't out run a weiner dog...

There are only two kinds of dog- the ones that already bit you and the ones that are gonna bite you :-)

Its best to have the dogs bite you when they are puppies. Then its over and you can enjoy them as pets. ;) Then the other bites are most likely unintentional.

Can the same thing be said about women you date? :D

hold on a second there, let me just get this out of my system: MINIATURE DACHSHUNDS!?!?!?!?!?!?

sorry. I'm not really a dog person. ;-)

anyhow, you know there's just no getting around this kind of thing. if you're the pet owner, it's pretty hard to see your pet as anything other than your sweet woofster. I mean, this time it was a miniature, umn, dachshund, but you hear the same thing from Rottie owners. and on the other end of the spectrum there's the people who are only aware of the possible threat.

in this very particular case I agree, yeah, the guy should've kept a cap on it. I've let slide a hell of a lot worse than a little barking.

-alex.

p.s. I'm sorry man, I just couldn't help being nonplussed at the image of a miniature one of those dogs. no hard feelings, I hope.

from the akc:

http://www.akc.org/breeds/recbreeds/dach.cfm


Teeth--Powerful canine teeth; teeth fit closely together in a scissors bite.

http://www.akc.org/images/breeds/dach1.jpg

Gee wizzz!!!:eek:

This sounds like a case of "have gun will travel"! I have the HALT!, send out the dog! I've got the gun"power" now if I just had something to shoot!!!!

I cary a frame pump and have only had to weild it once or twice. Usually just the sight of a "stick" is enough to back off dogs with anything but the most foul intentions. I just can't immagine being so insecure that you NEED to spray this breed of dog.

Don't get me wrong on this. I am a dog owner and a bike rider I feel for you.

I agree, this was a little overboard but I have to say most of the dogs I've been bitten by have been little ankle biters. I think they try to make up for their size with attitude. I would be concerned if a little dog came after me only because it would be ugly if he bit the front tire.

I'm going to leave all the soldier smart remarks alone for now.

The scariest dog situation I've ever encountered occured just as I crested a tough hill....There, in the middle of the road, almost like they were waiting for me, was a pack of roaming dogs. I was out of breath, my legs hurt, my water was gone. I looked at those dogs and thought, "this is the end." Luckily it wasn't, I woofed at them and they ran off...:crash:

As a dog owner (my two Vizsla's don't react to bikes - other than pick up their ears at the sound of Honda V four motorcycle engines- go figure) I think the guy overreacted.

Easiest way to avoid a Dachsi is to cycle away from it. Those little legs top out at about 10 mph.

Now if it was a big dog chasing you (I once got chased by a greyhound and nearly popped both knee joints trying to get away, before buckling a wheel when I crashed into the kerb) I think suggested advice is to get off the bike and put the bike between you and the dog.

Most dogs seem to react to the sound of a bike, and this may stop them.

I think the guy didn't use "reasonable force" but just wanted to use his spray.

The greatest danger with dogs is not that you might get bitten, but that they will take you down. In our club, by far the greatest problem is crashes caused by dogs.

I have a right to be able to peaceably ride down the public roadway without being attacked or otherwise harrassed by your dog. People DIE from crashes caused by dogs--it happens every year. If you cannot keep your dog from chasing cyclists, then you are in irresponsible owner. So stop whining and accept that you screwed up.

Of course, the problem is not the dog that is doing what comes naturally, but the owner. However, a solution is to "train" the dog that chasing cyclists is not a good idea.

Dave

The four legged animals worry me a lot less than the two legged kind. I ride early in the morning and have in fact been threatened by individuals driving past me and subsequently slowing down - fortunatly nothing happened. Nonetheless I can understand why someone may carry something for protection. I have a CWP and carry a cellphone as well as as something to protect myself should I have no other way out.

Unfortunately the world is not a very friendly place.

Regards,

~Michael~

The issue may not have been that the cyclist was afraid of a bite. He may have been afraid of crashing into your dog - if not this time, then the next time he rides by. I state this because I was involved in a similar situation. In my case the dog was large, but my concern was more with crashing (and the subsequent biting) into the dog.

I was humming down a 2 lane road when this dog appeared out from behind a row of bushes. There was no opportunity to stop, only to brake and swerve. Unfortunately for me, there were 3 cars comming @ me in the other lane - so swerving wasn't much of an option. I ended up, through either luck or divine intervention, slipping between the dog and the oncoming cars.

I had HALT with me, but there was no opportunity to use it. However, I always ride very slow by the house (I also visited the dog owner the evening of the incident) now, and have my HALT ready.

I do understand your feeling as your dogs are so small. However, in my case, the size of the dog wasn't the primary issue. I can most likely survive a dog bite, but I certainly wasn't going to survive a head-on crash with a motor vehicle.

I don't think your pet was damaged in any way. Also you might consider that almost everyone, does not share your view of dogs in general or your dog in particular.

My general rule is that if an unknown and unrestrained dog comes within six feet of me, I will spray it with pepper spray. If the dog is known to me to be harmless or can easily be avoided, then I refrain. Also, even if an animal is on a leash, if the owner does not have it under control, I have used spray in this case as well. I do this because the downside is a trip to the emergency room for me, and pepper spray causes no damage to the dog.

If your pet had gone under the wheels of the bicycle, it could have been seriously injured or killed. I think your neighbor did you a favor by preventing this at no cost to the dog or yourself, possibly the dog actually learned something.

regards
Dan

In my opinion, spraying your small dog was an overreaction/unnecessary. The majority of dogs I encounter stay on their property, but some like to run alongside me and bark for a short distance. They're kind are fun once you "get to know them." However, I pass one residence that has a rottweiler chained/restrained in the front yard. I pray the chain/cable never breaks and that he is always restrained. He has made it clear that he is not fond of me, and I don't think he would be the kind to run alongside and bark.

At the end of the day, I hope your dog learned something and will not be a "repeat offender"

Actually that (see above) is just what I was thinking. Dog nows equates a bad feeling with chasing bicycles. Next time he'll think twice about chasing one. If all dogs got hit with HALT (I don't even know what it is) or Pepper Spray when they chased a bike then they probably wouldn't chase bikes anymore. By the way I like dogs a lot so I'm not just one of these guys that's afraid of them or anything.

If dog chases a bicyclist and gets sprayed or clobbered with a bicycle pump or if the dog gets hit by a car, the person at fault is the pet owner. Size of the animal does not matter. When a person gets bit by any dog or even a cat or a mouse, they have the agonizing decision to either get painful rabies shots or take the risk of getting rabies.

It is unreasonable to expect a pedestrian or bicyclist to treat your unknown dog with any degree of friendliness, especially if it bares it's teeth, barks, or chases.

If your dog gets hurt because it is not on a leash, it is YOUR fault.

Originally posted by amerpie
I have Miniature Daschunds as pets.
Miniature??
My mother had two "regular-sized" daschunds and they couldn't run fast enough to catch up with their own shadows. :)
I'm sure a miniature would run about as fast.


If you see the guy again spray him with CS spray or gasoline or whatever is handy. :crash:

During the 1st World War, when all things Germanic were frowned upon, people used to kick Dacshunds in the street to show their patriotism.

For the "I've Got a Chip on My Shoulder Crowd"

1) See the original post to learn that I don't let my dogs run loose. One of my kids left the door open and the dog got out accidently. Perhaps your children never do things like this. You're lucky

2) See the original post to learn that I too have been chased by dogs, big ones. I know that dogs can bite. I know that dogs can cause you to crash.

3) See the original post to learn that I don't like scofflaws who disobey leash laws.

And for the guy who told me to stop whining, I bet you drive an SUV, vote Republican, are a member of the NRA, and never, ever talk as rough to people in real life as you do on the Internet.

I encounter dogs frequently on my commute to work. Frequently, they just enjoy barking at me but a couple of times I have had to use my pepper spary. I bought a product designed specifically to combat a canine threat as it launches in a narrow stream rather than in a fog. The irritant is mixed with a binding agent to make sure it adheres to the dog's nose, face, and eyes. It is important to note that this is a NON-LETHAL weapon. The dog will most likely not suffer any permanent physical damage, especially since it is water soluable. Fortunately, I've only had to use it twice and in each case it stopped the dog in its tracks. An interesting side effect which I had not anticipated but appreciate is that of the two dogs I sprayed, I see one of them frequently still and as soon as he sees me, he turns and runs the other way.

Boy, he must have been a b*tt-slow cyclist if the critter even got close enough to get sprayed.

I was on a group ride where one rider crashed another rider by swerving around trying to squirt the cat-sized dog that had come out to the road to see what was going on. If he'd just held his line and headed up the road, we would have been gone before the dog even got close. :rolleyes:

I understand your frustration, but I'll bet the dog learned a potentially life-saving lesson. The problem isn't that the man would/could have been hurt; it's the child who panics when a dog barks and runs at him and swerves into the street. That guy did a kid a favor by perhaps teaching your dog not to chase bicycles.

My preferred method for dealing with a bicyle chasing dog is to just say NO! in a clear voice. I find that's usually sufficient to stop an animal because they're reacting more on instinct than hate. They're chasing becuase you're running. That's something that needs to be trained out of the animal, even if he is a housedog that doesn't normally get out. The 9-year girl old that he chases doesn't understand or care that the dog means her no harm. She panics and swerves into traffic.

Originally posted by amerpie
For the "I've Got a Chip on My Shoulder Crowd"


And for the guy who told me to stop whining, I bet you drive an SUV, vote Republican, are a member of the NRA, and never, ever talk as rough to people in real life as you do on the Internet.

For the record:

I don't own an SUV and I commute by bike.

I vote for whomever I think will do the best job regardless of party affliation.

I have never been a member of the NRA.

And I would've talked to you a lot worse if I'd have been the one that your dog chased.

I have been taken down by dogs and suffer a permanent shoulder injury as a result. I also know one that was killed due to a dog-bike crash. I have also witnessed at least 4 dog-bike crashes on club rides over the past year. I also once saw a dog get killed by a car while chasing cyclists.

Even if this was an isolated incident due to your children, the rider had no way of knowing that. His life was unnecessarily put at risk by your animal. Your dog was not in any way permanently harmed, an may have learned a lesson that will (1) keep it from getting run over by a car, (2) keep you from getting sued, and (3) maybe save someone's life.

So piss off.

Dave

It sounds to me like this guy probably is an insecure rider. I mean if you cant bunny-hop your ride over a 4" sod-poodle.... come on!
:D

I am not sure that Halt is CS, but if it is CS we must realize that CS can be administered in different concentrations, from lethal on down. The dog spray version is pretty low. Many of us have had a dose of CS in the military or elsewhere, and what we learned is that while we don't like it, it has no lingering ill effects. Hopefully, poochie learned that, too.

Be glad poochie did not get nailed with bear spray!

Originally posted by amerpie
...I understand the frustration of cyclists bothered by the pets of scofflaws. What I can't understand is the irrational hatred some folks display at dogs... I dunno, Amerpie, maybe this guy was just trigger happy and looking for an excuse to use his weapon, or maybe he did have a bad K9 experience and wasn't about to take any more chances, or maybe it was something else altogether. We just don't know and we can only fill in the blanks...

FWIW (and yes it's easy for me to say as I'm not in your shoes), the previous posts have mentioned that perhaps this incident will prevent your dog from doing it again, thus preventing a panicked child from swerving into traffic, and/or the dog getting hit in traffic. You sound like a very conscientious dog owner, as the dog was let out by accident, so it's rather ironic that you and the dog learned a harsh lesson from just one slip-up, while the most irresponsible owners are not going to "get it" no matter how many learning experiences they have.

While we're on the subject (and I don't mean you or your pet personally), it seems like the most obnoxious dogs seem to have the most obnoxious owners. When I was a paperboy, one customer had a *mean* dog that chased after me regularly, right in front of its indifferent owner. One day I fought back with a squirtgun full of vinegar and that owner had a cow and began threatening me! I split and he could not keep up with me. Obviously, he didn't get any more deliveries from me...
The lesson I learned from this incident was that if you use any weapon against a threatening dog, reload and be willing, able, and inclined to use it against a threatening owner. Fight or flight isn't always a choice that's up to you...

Christ I've had a lot worse than dogs chasing me on my bike in fact dogs are a drop in the ocean compared to what I have been chased by on my bike try being chased by a 1 ton bull across grass or maybe a herd of angry dairy herd cows!!! Or best of all my horses when they feel like causing a stampede!!!! needless to say I don't take short cuts through fields of herd animals anymore not worth it!!!! I'd like to get hold of that guy who used that gas on the dog I would spray it at him till there was none left!!!!! there was no need for that :crash:

Originally posted by MichaelW
During the 1st World War, when all things Germanic were frowned upon, people used to kick Dacshunds in the street to show their patriotism.

disgusting :crash: there is nothing worse than cruelty to animals :crash:

amerpie- my kiddos brought home one of those silly little dogs about 3 years ago. I griped and groaned about the dumb yapping little thing for a couple weeks. But after a few times of that dog crawling up in my lap.... oh boy, I understand now how you can get attached to one of those worthless little dogs. And slow? No way, this thing can get those teenie little legs churning so fast you can't believe it! Maybe that's why the dude sprayed it, he was afraid he would laugh so hard it would cause him to crash ;)

I think it's a bummer that we can't talk about this without getting negative. Or, maybe it's a good thing that we've uncovered something about which there're strongly held opinions.

meh,

-alex.

p.s. just to keep this postlet bike-related: I wanna ride a century before the year's out.

Originally posted by goodcatjack
I think it's a bummer that we can't talk about this without getting negative.

If that was directed at me I was misunderstood. I love this dumb little dog (it's just hard to admit ;) )

One time my (our) little weenie dog got under one of the neighbor kids wheels on his bike while he was riding in front of our house. Both of them got hurt. In fact, I carried the kid home and the dumb little dog at the same time heheh.

Now I need to figure out a way to strap this dog on my back somehow and ride a dh course somewhere. She would love it.

Originally posted by Giant_racer
disgusting :crash: there is nothing worse than cruelty to animals :crash:
While I agree wholeheartedly that cruelty to animals is disgusting and evil, I think saying there's "nothing worse" is kind of over the top.

1) Someone kicks your dog or 2) someone molests your young daughter.

1) Someone kicks your dog or 2) someone releases serin gas in a crowded subway.

1) Someone kicks your dog or 2) someone gets your ten-year-old son hooked on heroin.

Which are you going to choose in each of the above cases? That's just three examples of many things that are a lot worse than cruelty to animals, at least IMNTBHO.

John

Funny this dog-spraying thread should come up now...I just bought a new canister of pepper spray at the army depot just a few days back (old one fell off the bike and got damaged) and of all things I actually had a need for it yesterday. A guy several miles from here has a golden retreiver...it's the usual nightmare scenario. I've been up to this guy's house and spoken with him, I asked the dog's name so that I could use it in a commanding tone along with "NO!" but it doesn't matter. I usually outrun him on the run down the hill but he has learned to wait and watch for me. I can snarl pretty good and put the bluff on most other troublemakers, but he's not buying in. The owner even stopped his riding mower one day to watch his dog chase me up the hill in front of his house. It must be like pay-per-view to this guy. He never corrects the dog, despite the fact that this behavior not only endangers his pet, but also my safety AND anyone else coming along at that moment that might have to suddenly swerve to miss the dog as it gives chase. Well, I saw him coming at me yesterday and I had had enough. I gave him one good dose to the head and he was off back to the house and I was on my way down the road. That simple. Hopefully he will be half as mentally gifted as the other few dogs I know that needed help breaking a very bad habit and do his growling from the safety of the yard.
I would never hurt an animal out of malice, but I would rather make their eyes burn like hell for a few minutes than see them get themselves (and possibly me) flattened!

Clearly, Amerpie's unfortunate incident was not a case of intentionally letting a dog run loose.

I don't carry pepper spray, but if I had a recurring case of "dog-owner mental constipation," I'd have to do something. Usually, the dog isn't the problem, it's the owner. Accidents can happen, but it's owners that repeatedly let their dogs run that eventually
bring someone to grief--often it's the dog who suffers.

I recently crushed a black mutt while driving one night. He was just doing what dogs do: chase cats. I stayed with him until he stopped breathing.

If you use pepper spray, that's up to you, I don't blame anyone at all. But I prefer calling Animal Control. Having to go pick up your pet in "jail" is an experience you might not want to repeat.
Pepper spray makes people mad, which does not help solve the problem in the long run, I think.

Originally posted by HalfHearted
While I agree wholeheartedly that cruelty to animals is disgusting and evil, I think saying there's "nothing worse" is kind of over the top.

1) Someone kicks your dog or 2) someone molests your young daughter.

1) Someone kicks your dog or 2) someone releases serin gas in a crowded subway.

1) Someone kicks your dog or 2) someone gets your ten-year-old son hooked on heroin.

Which are you going to choose in each of the above cases? That's just three examples of many things that are a lot worse than cruelty to animals, at least IMNTBHO.

John

I do not agree.

One thing leads to another.

A man who does not kick a dog without a reason, will feel the same empathy for that girl or boy.

A man, who tortures animals, may be capable to do the same thing with humans. It will be the desire to cause pain for the sake of it.

By the way. What was the consequence of the HALT CS for the dog? It should not be too bad I guess.

I am sure that everyone has run into a dog problem while on a ride. I think that every situation needs to be put into perspective. I mean a full grown man being chased by a nine pound dog and uses CS on it. Like come on thats ridiculous. If you are being chased by something that is actually big and could do some damage then do something about it. Just remeber though usually as foolish as it looks a good yelling will make the dog back off. If that doesn't work GOD BE WITH you. And if that doesn't work. BITE THE DOG BACK
Keep it real

Lets get this thread back to the original topic..... chemical weapons. I ate four beef and bean burritos last night and there is a chemical weapon brewing in my lower intestine right now :-)

If you carry a water bottle a good hard blast of water is a good way to fend off all but the meanest dogs, but if you ride a regular route most dogs will get savvy to this trick. On one of my regular routes there is this dog that must have starred in the movie "Kujo". I swear, this dog sat by the road just waiting for me to ride by and attack. He even drew blood a couple times. I finally connected one day with my Lakes up side his big ugly head, and after that we kinda decided to declare a truce.

BTW- the water bottle trick works on drunk rednecks too, just make sure you have a couple big friends riding with you :D

I agree. The guy should have outbiked the little dog.

In addition, just because you go out and buy a can of pepper spray/mace doesn't mean you have to use it.

However, it sounds like both parties are to blame. The rider could have outridden the dog. Yet, the dog owner let the dog out of the house. I know it was an accident, but just because it was an accident doesn't mean it is ok.

ok, well whatever. There are lots of ways to avoid a confrontation with a dog, and pepper spray/CS is one of them. After ALL ELSE fails I will be reaching for my can, thank you very much.


better yet, Cycletourist, come with me and next time I will just take aim with your lower GI tract! :beer: of course that puts me at Ground Zero as well...:cry:

i usualy shout at them & ride right at them,sometimes running over them (back wheel) a collision with a tyre gives them a painfull burn, next time i see the dog i just shout & it seems to get the message ,bike, shout , pain. iam usualy an animal lover(in the nices possible way:D ) but i put my own wellbeing & safty first ;)

I take with me some dog food from a supermarket.

It makes the stray dogs your best friends. And it scares the owners of home dogs better than any threats of legal action, shouting, etc.

You should have seen the Lion that chased me in Lake Charles, La. on Saturday. And don't try to tell me it wasn't a lion. God doesn't make dogs that big!!!! Finally got ahead of him, but the road turned 90 degrees and the sucker cut the corner and caught me again. I am as big a dog lover as the next guy, but there are those times when a 357 magnum sounds like a good option. By the way, when did dogs learn to run 25 mph?

Originally posted by amerpie
I have Miniature Daschunds as pets. They stand all of four inches tall and weigh about nine lbs. Once, one of my kids accidently left the front door open and one of my dogs ran into the front yard, violating my cities leash law all to hell.

Then, the little demon dared to bark at a cyclist, who happened to be a member of the 82nd Airborne, America's Guard of Honor. He immediately pulled out his can of HALT and sprayed my dog with CS spray, which is what HALT is and what the UN classifies as chemical weapon.

I often ride in rural areas. I've been chased by Great Danes, St. Bernards and nearly everything smaller. I understand the frustration of cyclists bothered by the pets of scofflaws. What I can't understand is the irrational hatred some folks display at dogs. My god, if you can't out run a d_mn weiner dog, then you need to retire.

FYI... I've owned dogs all my life. I am sorry to say, dog's the size of yours lead the canine world when it comes to bites... Even though I know how you feel, I've known people that have been bitten by a poodle, Dachshund and shelty's... if they're excited, they can cause some damage. People that hate dogs likely hate animals in general and their no different then one category of people hating another just because. :(

I am a memeber of the NRA, I do vote republican, and do not own an SUV, but firmly defend anyone's right to own one, or to bicycle within the lawful limits of the road for that matter. No one's chattel, like a dog, has a right to trespass on the rights of another. I believe the cyclist had a right to keep and bear arms, and to use those arms against the dog. In fact one cartridge, the Velo-Dog was desiged for that very reason. The dog's owner should thank the cyclist for refraining from killing the animal, not condemn him for reasonable self-defense.

I would like to see more advocacy of bicyclists' rights from the standpoint of liberties and property rights, and less advocacy of bicyclists' rights as exclusive of motorists' rights.

fyi- pepper spray is not CS, and although both are chemical weapons, neither are banned chemical weapons, nor is either considered a lethal weapon, both are classified as riot control agents.

Well,

We have a dog and 2 cats.

I have to side with others that said the person did you a favor.
I see the CS like others do, as a relatively harmless way to make the dog STOP chasing cyclists cars etc.


Would you have rather your dog ran under his wheels and got run over? then you could have had a hurt/dead dog, a hurt/dead cyclist and possibly a lawsuit blaming you for letting your dog out causing this guy irreparable harm.

All things considered, a tiny dog near a fast moving vehicle and nobody gets hurt is a good outcome.

Sure we can second guess the guy with the CS all we want, but in the end you are at fault for your dog getting out, not him for keeping it away from him.

Blame the other guy all you want, but its your kids that let the dog into the street.

take care,

Jester