View Full Version : Answer me this about the TdF scandal
Hipcycler
06-30-06, 12:18 PM
Why?
Why were team bosses so quick to pull Basso and Jan?
Why didn't they challenge this like Vino's team?
All this advertiser/sponsor money on the line and they reacted swiftly by pulling them off the team the day before the race starts? I don't get that part of this.
Also, the timing of the release of the name is suspicous....field now a little more favorable to a Spaniard?
All the teams signed an agreement that they would pull any rider who's involved in a doping investigation, regardless of whether that particular rider has been convicted or not. They're just honoring their agreement.
As for the timing, I recall something about UCI wanting the names of the riders involved "before the start of the Tour". It's a bit last-minute, but that time frame was met. I doubt it has anything to do with national favoritism - the same riders would have been on that list if it had come out months ago.
Frankly, I think this is all good. I'm disappointed to see Ullrich go out this way and I would have liked to see Basso's attempt at a Giro-Tour double, but this year's tour will be a chance for lesser (and presumably clean, but I'm quite cynical about everyone in the peloton) riders to have a chance where otherwise there'd be none.
jjmolyet
06-30-06, 12:35 PM
I would have liked to see Basso's attempt at a Giro-Tour double, .
will he stil be considered winner of the giro?
'nother
06-30-06, 12:39 PM
Why?
Why were team bosses so quick to pull Basso and Jan?
Why didn't they challenge this like Vino's team?
All this advertiser/sponsor money on the line and they reacted swiftly by pulling them off the team the day before the race starts? I don't get that part of this.
Also, the timing of the release of the name is suspicous....field now a little more favorable to a Spaniard?
I was having the same thoughts on my ride this morning. I thought, "any publicity is good publicity" and had to wonder whether the Tour organizers might not have been thinking about the absence of LA this year, this certainly is going to draw some attention. My guess is that within a few years we will have discovered that this thing is even bigger than it already looks.
will he stil be considered winner of the giro?
Don't bet money on this information or anything, but I think they'll only strip his win if they can prove he was doping at that time. For now, he hasn't even been convicted - he's just implicated in an ongoing investigation. For all we know, he may be proven clean in the end (unlikely, but it could happen).
bigskymacadam
06-30-06, 12:56 PM
With Riis' emotional blah-dibbly-blah he didn't want Basso competing with this hangin' over his shoulder day after day. It would be hard to defend your GC standings and the defend yourself in the investigation at the same time.
fruitless
06-30-06, 12:56 PM
Don't bet money on this information or anything, but I think they'll only strip his win if they can prove he was doping at that time. For now, he hasn't even been convicted - he's just implicated in an ongoing investigation. For all we know, he may be proven clean in the end (unlikely, but it could happen).
These guys got caught, really caught, like caught with their bibs around their ankles. Phone taps, video, coded blood bags with the keys to the codes, detailed doping schedules for individual athletes. I think that with the mountain of evidence in the possession of the spanish courts its only a matter of time before someone starts talking in return for accomodations and then the whole thing is going to get even bigger. I see the DS's of all the teams involved going down sometime soon.
TCNJCyclist
06-30-06, 01:29 PM
Also, the timing of the release of the name is suspicous....field now a little more favorable to a Spaniard?
There are Spaniards left in the field? I was looking at the list that VeloNews published and 26 of the riders were from Spain.
Hipcycler - please grow up. This is a police investigation into the sale of illegal doping products. It would have to be a pretty wide-ranging conspiracy if the Spanish police were in league with a few Valverde fans to get him to win the race. It hardly does much for the reputation of SPanish cycling now does it - as it seems to be clear that many pros went specifically to Spain for their products.
Hipcycler
06-30-06, 01:52 PM
....And your thoughts about my first question?
I just threw the timing issue out there for discussion.
Lets keep the personal attacks out of this and have a legit discussion, that's all I ask EURO.
If there was some sort of agreement like another person posted here, then how come the Vino fight then? Why didn't they just dump him as fast as Jan and Basso were dumped?
merlinextraligh
06-30-06, 01:57 PM
Why?
Why were team bosses so quick to pull Basso and Jan?
Why didn't they challenge this like Vino's team?
All this advertiser/sponsor money on the line and they reacted swiftly by pulling them off the team the day before the race starts? I don't get that part of this.
Also, the timing of the release of the name is suspicous....field now a little more favorable to a Spaniard?
1) as pointed out, they signed an agreement, 2) better to throw the accussed riders under the bus and act dismayed by these rogues, than to contest something you know you'll lose, get the whole team kicked out, and look bad when the rider you stuck up for is proved to be a doper. Much easier to throw the "isolated cheater" under the bus.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is not a TdF scandal. It is a drug scandal in Spain.
'nother
06-30-06, 02:03 PM
Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is not a TdF scandal. It is a drug scandal in Spain.
I took Hip's post to mean that the "suspicious" timing of it pretty much makes it a TdF scandal (in addition to a drug scandal in Spain).
Hipcycler
06-30-06, 02:03 PM
Yeah I know...
So the tone I am getting here is that you guys really believe that Jan and Ivan were up to no good?
I guess I am still in the camp of innocent until proven guilty.
Hipcycler
06-30-06, 02:04 PM
I took Hip's post to mean that the "suspicious" timing of it pretty much makes it a TdF scandal (in addition to a drug scandal in Spain).
Yes.
I'm just sad about the fact that fans like me are being cheated out of seeing those two duke it out to be the new king this year.
PedalMasher
06-30-06, 02:13 PM
Well hip, the facts are:
Fact: The doctor arrested has detailed doping records of several athletes already suspended - Heras/Hamilton that we know of and probably includes detailed doping records of others.
Fact: Ullrich/Sevilla (Basso info hasn't been published yet) have had contact with the doctor to the point that T-Mobile said there is irrefutable evidence that Jan lied.
Fact: None of the implicated riders were clamoring for a DNA test. I know Jan was for a time, then it petered out. You don't hear him clamoring for a DNA test today and either is Basso. hmmmm....
How can you not come to the conclusion that Ullrich is directly involved? If it was my last chance to win the tour de france with the millions in endorsements at stake and have dedicated my season to it, why wouldn't you be clamoring for a DNA test that could have been done weeks ago if you were really clean?
Or to put another way, do you think Ullrich/Sevilla just happened to be in the neighborhood when they got a nasty sinus infection and decided to see this doctor?
Hipcycler
06-30-06, 02:23 PM
Jan said he doesn't even know the doc.
It's hard for me to imagine that these athletes work as hard as they do, then do something this incredibly stupid that could see it all thrown away in the blink of an eye.
IF it's true, they're not as smart as I thought.
Still, if I am correct here, neither one has tested positive for anything.
But you make a great point.
If it was me and it wasn't true, I'd call the media together today and drop my pants right there and pee in a cup and hand it to them. Here....test it.
PedalMasher
06-30-06, 02:25 PM
Jan said he doesn't even know the doc.
It's hard for me to imagine that these athletes work as hard as they do, then do something this incredibly stupid that could see it all thrown away in the blink of an eye.
IF it's true, they're not as smart as I thought.
Still, if I am correct here, neither one has tested positive for anything.
But you make a great point.
If it was me and it wasn't true, I'd call the media together today and drop my pants right there and pee in a cup and hand it to them. Here....test it.
Well that's why Jan is suspended. He signed an affadavit that he had no contact with the doctor. I'm thinking the irrefutable evidence is videotape, I mean, they got Sevilla on videotape (purportedly), why not Jan?
PedalMasher
06-30-06, 02:28 PM
If it was me and it wasn't true, I'd call the media together today and drop my pants right there and pee in a cup and hand it to them. Here....test it.
I agree, I would have started drinking tons of water the moment the director sportif came walking towards me with head hanging low to deliver the news.
Maybe we're simplifying a bit, but why wouldn't they have done something like this weeks ago when the rumors were flying?
CyLowe97
06-30-06, 02:30 PM
Hip, Do you recall Liberty Seguros yanking their millions of dollars of sponsorship when this scandal first hit? They had had enough of their corporate name attached to cheating, especially after Heras shame in the Vuelta last year.
Phonak's not coming back as a lead sponsor next year, as they were attached to several scandals
CSC, T-Mobile, etc., all pay MILLIONS of dollars for these guys to win. It seems they turn a blind eye if their riders are not caught, but once the evidence is there, they have to treat this like any corporation would. Put the employee (read: rider) on suspension to show that they are TOUGH ON CRIME and that they are a GOOD ANTI-DOPING CORPORATION.
It's about $$$$, man. It's just that the light is supposed to be GOOD publicity, not cheating publicity. If the benfactors of cycling demand a cleaner sport and back it up by suspending their own employees for infractions, then the sport benefits in the long run.
Hipcycler
06-30-06, 02:33 PM
CyLowe...
Yes, but by doing that, the corporate types are simply putting the riders up for slaughter for the good of the sport....whether or not they did anything wrong? This better be really good proof they have on these guys. What if.....just what if....they didn't do anything wrong?! This is terrible all the way around.
I've been thinking about this all day long.
Well, at least I'm passionate about something.
CyLowe97
06-30-06, 02:38 PM
Think of it this way...
A cop is accused of abusing a suspect. No evidence he did it, right? But what's the first thing that happens? They take him off the beat and put him on desk duty, or perhaps suspend-with-pay.
Or... A teacher is accused of violating a student's rights in a high school. First thing that happens: that teacher is removed from classroom to stop the sh*tstorm that immediately brews.
Same principle with these Tour riders. It's just gotten so bad that the teams HAVE TO suspend them, or risk looking like they don't care about the greater good. It's not a fair system, but most things in life aren't fair, especially when playing by someone else's rules.
What if.....just what if....they didn't do anything wrong?!
Sorry, there are no what-ifs involved in this. All of them were/are on drugs. Read up on your cycling history.
This better be really good proof they have on these guys. What if.....just what if....they didn't do anything wrong?! This is terrible all the way around.
From what I understand, they have mountains of evidence. Videotapes, tapped telephone conversations, invoices for payments, ... not to mention the most damning evidence of all: DNA in the form of blood intended for transfusion.
These riders have been caught with their bibs around their ankles.
SoonerBent
06-30-06, 02:52 PM
We haven't seen the all the actual evidence. They have. I don't think the team directors would pull the Tour favorites without a fight unless the evidence they've been given is pretty clear. The teams want a Tour win about as much as the riders do.
SB
Hipcycler
06-30-06, 02:54 PM
From what I understand, they have mountains of evidence. Videotapes, tapped telephone conversations, invoices for payments, ... not to mention the most damning evidence of all: DNA in the form of blood intended for transfusion.
These riders have been caught with their bibs around their ankles.
Wow.
That's bad all right.
If that's the case then I for one am sad about it all. Maybe I was looking through rose colored Bole' riding glasses!
What next?
Landis eats injected hamburgers?
Are ANY of these guys for real, if we took away the crap would WE be beating some of them up the Alps?
'nother
06-30-06, 02:59 PM
Are ANY of these guys for real, if we took away the crap would WE be beating some of them up the Alps?
That's what gets to me. These guys would *still* be amazing without the dope. Maybe just not quite as amazing :p But I doubt any of us would stand a chance of beating them up the Alps.
Starclimber
06-30-06, 03:18 PM
I could beat up some of them in the Alps, or anywhere else for that matter. Seems most of them deserve a good beating.
merlinextraligh
06-30-06, 03:45 PM
Are ANY of these guys for real, if we took away the crap would WE be beating some of them up the Alps?
Don't delude yourself. These guys are in whole nother world. Even the non climbers would smoke anybody on this forum. EPO might make a 3% difference. At the very elite level, where every one is truly gifted, and in absolute peak shape, that can be a huge difference. For the rest of us, taking EPO might make us loose 50 minutes up L'Alpe de Huez, instead of 53 minutes.
That's what gets to me. These guys would *still* be amazing without the dope. Maybe just not quite as amazing :p But I doubt any of us would stand a chance of beating them up the Alps.
When I start to see riders "calling out" the bad/cheating riders....When I see these guys have a bad day or two during a major tour...thats when we know or can hope that more are clean rather than more are doped. I believe hemotocrit should be limited to 45...not 50. Variations should be monitored and riders suspended if changes too quickly. When 140 lb riders win relatively flat TT's they should be disected. I used to think we should allow the drug use but who wants their kid to compete in that....I know some would but sheeesh.
Prince9931
06-30-06, 07:58 PM
I understand why they took the the steps they did in pulling Jan & basso etc…..
I also understand that Riis is a hypocrite of immense proportions.
I understand the “TDF’s” responsibility to the sponsors of these teams and to the fans.
What I don’t understand is if they are truly concerned about the integrity of the sport. Why not
1. Delay the tour a 3-5 days and test everyone participating
2. If any rider is found to be cheating, give them a 2nd test.
3. If rider tests positive again. 4 year ban, no questions.
4. The top 5 GC finishers should be DNA tested, you fail…….. See you in four years.
I understand it takes money to do all the tests. But how much are they losing in viewer ship alone. Much less the tarnished image the sport of cycling has right now. I will miss Vino’s style of riding and how spontaneously and recklessly he attacked.
[QUOTE=PedalMasher]I agree, I would have started drinking tons of water the moment the director sportif came walking towards me with head hanging low to deliver the news.QUOTE]
Except, in Jan's case his DS was suspended as well. Was Rudy doping too?
godspiral
06-30-06, 08:44 PM
I
2. If any rider is found to be cheating, give them a 2nd test.
3. If rider tests positive again. 4 year ban, no questions.
4. The top 5 GC finishers should be DNA tested, you fail…….. See you in four years.
A DNA test doesn't determine dopping behaviour.
All the riders will be tested during the tour, and will likely pass.
Prince9931
06-30-06, 09:09 PM
A DNA test doesn't determine dopping behaviour.
All the riders will be tested during the tour, and will likely pass.
So will a spinal tap work ......... I mean there has to be some type of test that can be administered that will either prove you are cheating or not?
What, cyclist use performance enhancers? Shocker. Just kidding. This is a mess and it's only going to get worse.
Smoothie104
06-30-06, 10:37 PM
Why?
Why were team bosses so quick to pull Basso and Jan?
Why didn't they challenge this like Vino's team?
All this advertiser/sponsor money on the line and they reacted swiftly by pulling them off the team the day before the race starts? I don't get that part of this.
Also, the timing of the release of the name is suspicous....field now a little more favorable to a Spaniard?
They are doing it to save face, to make it look like they disapprove of it, and had no idea. Which of course is COMPLETE HORSESHlT. How can the DS not notice 9 guys, re infusing their own blood, which has been properly transported and preserved Twice during a 3 week race? Why does a cycling team need several blood chemists on staff?
shipinabottle
07-01-06, 04:58 AM
I was having the same thoughts on my ride this morning. I thought, "any publicity is good publicity" and had to wonder whether the Tour organizers might not have been thinking about the absence of LA this year, this certainly is going to draw some attention.
That's what I was thinking when I read the paper this morning. Rocketed the Tour from mid section on Fri to front page today in my sports page. This has got to drum up some interest, which I think they know they lost a lot of when Lance left. Other people have similar ideas?
They are doing it to save face, to make it look like they disapprove of it, and had no idea. Which of course is COMPLETE HORSESHlT. How can the DS not notice 9 guys, re infusing their own blood, which has been properly transported and preserved Twice during a 3 week race? Why does a cycling team need several blood chemists on staff?
I'm with Smoothie on this one. It's not like these guys are keeping bags of blood under their pillows and administering it to themselves when no one is looking. Also, in such a small community rumors must be pretty quick to get around. It seems unreasonable to think that the people in charge could be completely unaware of such intensive doping.
HAMMER MAN
07-01-06, 07:05 AM
the outcome will be quite interesting concerning guilt and non-guilt.
the blood-doping seems to be quite prevelant and the investigation seems to have some real hard substantuated evidence, I am just wondering what percentage of all pro riders actually do this on a regular basis, and who just does it for the Giro and the LeTour.
Why were team bosses so quick to pull Basso and Jan?
Why didn't they challenge this like Vino's team?
Because they were presented clear evidence which came from the police investigation. Damage limitation on the part of the sponsors.
[QUOTE=Hipcycler
If there was some sort of agreement like another person posted here, then how come the Vino fight then? Why didn't they just dump him as fast as Jan and Basso were dumped?[/QUOTE]
I may be wrong but I didn't think Vino was implicated, I thought it was 75% of his team.
feltdude
07-01-06, 02:34 PM
You don't need to carry bags of blood around to take EPO or HGH injections or wear a test patch.
classic1
07-01-06, 06:31 PM
I've got a question, which seems to have been bypassed all of the press.
Who were the other 100 or so athletes caught up in this scandal and what sports do they participate in?
classic1
07-01-06, 06:48 PM
Found something on cyclingnews just then.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul02news2
It's hard for me to imagine that these athletes work as hard as they do, then do something this incredibly stupid that could see it all thrown away in the blink of an eye.
I think you have it backwards. Until they get caught, they probably feel it would be stupid to do all that hard work, and then throw it away by not topping up with performance enhancing drugs, particularily since they know so many of their competitors are using them.
Yes, but by doing that, the corporate types are simply putting the riders up for slaughter for the good of the sport....whether or not they did anything wrong?
For the good of the sport? Not for a second. It's the good of the corporation that is paramount here.
Why not
1. Delay the tour a 3-5 days and test everyone participating
2. If any rider is found to be cheating, give them a 2nd test.
Because the tests aren't good enough. Many of these guys and another guy have been tested over and over and have passed all tests. These fellows were implicated by medical records and surveillance tapes etc., not by blood tests.
So will a spinal tap work ......... I mean there has to be some type of test that can be administered that will either prove you are cheating or not?
The riders and their docs have refined the timing and dosing of the treatments to be almost indetectable. For example EPO is naturally present in varing levels in the body so it's hard to test for injected EPO itself, and it's effects on red cells are similar to the effects of legal strategies like altitude training and hypoxic (oxygen-deprived) sleeping tents. Thus the best way to catch an athlete cheating is not by blood testing, but by evidence like catching him or his entourage with syringes full of EPO or in the act of using the drug.
The DNA test is mentioned in this case because apparently Dr. Fuentes had some code-named blood samples in his office, and if they can be matched to riders who claimed they had nothing to do with him, it will prove the riders lied.
Prince9931
07-02-06, 02:20 PM
Damn man ......... if that is the case then
I have never tested for a banned substance argument goes out the window
I.e. Basso, Ulrich, and someone else who has serious hardware.
The "sport" of cycling is now lapped in with Baseball, football, Basketball, Hockey etc..... Fun to watch.... but not to be taken seriously.
The riders and their docs have refined the timing and dosing of the treatments to be almost indetectable. For example EPO is naturally present in varing levels in the body so it's hard to test for injected EPO itself, and it's effects on red cells are similar to the effects of legal strategies like altitude training and hypoxic (oxygen-deprived) sleeping tents. Thus the best way to catch an athlete cheating is not by blood testing, but by evidence like catching him or his entourage with syringes full of EPO or in the act of using the drug.
The DNA test is mentioned in this case because apparently Dr. Fuentes had some code-named blood samples in his office, and if they can be matched to riders who claimed they had nothing to do with him, it will prove the riders lied.
kunsei83
07-02-06, 03:20 PM
Yea, any of those pros will kill us by alot. All of them are at such an elite level that even 1% increase in their performance can make a difference between winning or cracking.
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