General Cycling Discussion - Parents teaching their children bad habits.

I took a short 20 mile ride on the local MUP today. I noticed a lot of families, I guess they are getting an early start on the holiday weekend. It was nice to see parents out with their children, enjoying the nice summer day. But one thing I saw that was disturbing was the number of children without helmets. One child of the very few that were wearing helmets, had a helmet so large it was slipping down to the side of his head.

In Pennsylvania, all children under 12 must wear a helmet while riding a bicycle. IMHO, this age is set too low, it really should be 18. I would think a number of the children were indeed under 12. So not only were the parents being negligent, they were breaking the law.

Parents, please insist that your children wear properly fit helmets, no matter the law in your state (or country). It doesn't take much of a fall to permanently injure or kill your child. Lead by example and wear a helmet yourself.

I rode my whole childhood - in fact until I was about 30 - without a helmet, took plenty of spills, never had a serious head injury in all that time. I don't see any need for helmet laws, kids are too protected these days.

I rode my whole childhood - in fact until I was about 30 - without a helmet, took plenty of spills, never had a serious head injury in all that time. I don't see any need for helmet laws, kids are too protected these days.

Funny - I'm exactly the same way - fell many times, even slid the width of a road on my hip and elbow once (have the flat shaved bone to prove it :) ) but somehow I had the knowledge to keep my head off the ground.

Only problem is, I'd be kicking myself if my little one had something happen to her which could have been prevented by wearing a helmet. Guess what - I wear one now as does she.

I didn't start wearing a helmet till I was 30 (1 year ago).
Neither did anyone in my family (1 brother, mom, dad, 4 cousins, aunt, uncle, etc) and we are all still around.

It's their choice. Helmet laws are pointless IMHO.

I still think using a helmet is a good idea. I'm just not for our country's incessant desire to legislate EVERYTHING.

I rode my whole childhood - in fact until I was about 30 - without a helmet, took plenty of spills, never had a serious head injury in all that time. I don't see any need for helmet laws, kids are too protected these days.

So did I, and I rode my sled in the winter like a maniac. I also rode in a car as a youngster with inadequate or no child seats and later no seat belts. We know more now and have better technology. so why ignore it?

You were a helmet now why? You wear one but are you saying you would not require your child to wear one?

I agree that there are too many laws. I have libertarian leanings so I am not sure if I would like to see such a law for adults. But the law is not aimed at forcing the children to wear a helmet but to force parents to require children to wear one where they might wise enough to do otherwise.

It's their choice. Helmet laws are pointless IMHO.

I still think using a helmet is a good idea. I'm just not for our country's incessant desire to legislate EVERYTHING.

Adults should have a choice so I agree, no helmet laws for them. But children aren't adults, they need to look to their parents for guidance. And many parents are either ignorant of many dangers or just don't care. We had one man here that had visiting rights to his asthmatic son. The farther insisted on smoking in the house during the child's visit. After each visit, the child would have an attack. The mother actually had to go to court and get the judge to order that the father must smoke outside when the child was in the house.

I rode my whole childhood - in fact until I was about 30 - without a helmet, took plenty of spills, never had a serious head injury in all that time. I don't see any need for helmet laws, kids are too protected these days.

Me either, but I do know someone that was in a coma for over 15 years after she hit her head on a curb while riding a bike. It was a low speed off balance thing, fell over sideways and hit her temple on the curb. Lost 15 years of her life and will need attend care for the remainder of it. Think about it, when you are sitting on a bike your head is 5'-6' in the air, if you get entangled and can't put a foot or hand out you will go down dead weight. The statistics of it happening are probably pretty low, but I think I am going to improve my odds a bit by wearing a helmet.;) As far as the children are concerned helmets are a good idea, because of the developing motor skills. And not all children devlop at the same pace. In today's overly competitive society some parents push their kids past reasonable limits, IMHO increasing the potential for injury. But an improperly adjusted or sized helmet is about as worthless as no helmet at all. My two always wore helmets and still do to this day. Both are in their 20's.

Aaron:)

Adults should have a choice so I agree, no helmet laws for them. But children aren't adults, they need to look to their parents for guidance. And many parents are either ignorant of many dangers or just don't care. We had one man here that had visiting rights to his asthmatic son. The farther insisted on smoking in the house during the child's visit. After each visit, the child would have an attack. The mother actually had to go to court and get the judge to order that the father must smoke outside when the child was in the house.

General discussion turns into A&S. :p

Well, we can't legislate intelligence into the general population.
I offer no solutions. I've simply noted that cities with helmet laws still have a large number of helmetless kids. However, that may be an enforcement issue. It has made me question if the helmet laws have done much of any good. Any statistics on head trauma before and after helmet laws?

Incidentally, my son wears a helmet in his child trailer and will wear one on a bike. On his tricycle in the backyard I do not bother.

General discussion turns into A&S. :p

Well, we can't legislate intelligence into the general population.


It is amazing isn't it? We can require people to have a license to drive a car, fly an airplane or practice medicine. But any two dolts can take on the most important job in the world, raising children, with the only requirement that they need to be capable of having sex.

The problem with people who choose not to wear helmets, is that when they crash many of them survive to become vegetables that the taxpayers have to pick up the tab for the rest of thier lives.

"Think about it, when you are sitting on a bike your head is 5'-6' in the air, if you get entangled and can't put a foot or hand out you will go down dead weight. The statistics of it happening are probably pretty low, but I think I am going to improve my odds a bit by wearing a helmet"
When we walk around our head is 5'-6' in the air also, perhaps we should always wear a helmet? Probably would be some benefit to wearing a helmet when we drive also. Most of us wear a helmet just to cover the remote chance that we will have a crash, wonder how long before it spreads to other activities? I'm old enough to remember playing baseball with out a batting helmet & I cycled thousands of miles without a helmet but time change, just have to decide how much risk we are willing to take. Don

General discussion turns into A&S. :p

Well, we can't legislate intelligence into the general population.
I offer no solutions. I've simply noted that cities with helmet laws still have a large number of helmetless kids. However, that may be an enforcement issue. It has made me question if the helmet laws have done much of any good. Any statistics on head trauma before and after helmet laws?

Incidentally, my son wears a helmet in his child trailer and will wear one on a bike. On his tricycle in the backyard I do not bother.

There are studies and statistics... mostly from Australia. It showed that bike usage went way down, and head injuries went down a little bit. (Number of serious head injuries dropped far less than the number of bicyclists) .... the injury rates went UP.

This was with a VERY high rate of compliance with helmet laws.

I'd post links to the info, but it just doesn't matter.... I'll be flamed long after I grow bored and stop reading this thread.

I've been riding bikes for about 25 years.... I've only worn a helmet on VERY rare occasions, and then only when it was mandated. I've been involved with a ton of crashes, some pretty serious, many involving cars. I've never hit my head. Not once.

For the type of riding I do, and the type of accidents I'm most likely to be involved in, helmets would do little to nothing to help, therefore I don't wear one. (And no amount of flaming on an internet board is going to change that)

If you're interested in the links, PM me.

I still think using a helmet is a good idea. I'm just not for our country's incessant desire to legislate EVERYTHING.

+1. Damned nanny state!:(

When we walk around our head is 5'-6' in the air also, perhaps we should always wear a helmet? Probably would be some benefit to wearing a helmet when we drive also. Most of us wear a helmet just to cover the remote chance that we will have a crash, wonder how long before it spreads to other activities? I'm old enough to remember playing baseball with out a batting helmet & I cycled thousands of miles without a helmet but time change, just have to decide how much risk we are willing to take. Don

Please use the quote feature when quoting another post and not the " marks.

Many people Do wear helmets when walking. These people usually don't have full control over there motor activities. It is an evaluation of risk.

I've been riding bikes for about 25 years.... I've only worn a helmet on VERY rare occasions, and then only when it was mandated. I've been involved with a ton of crashes, some pretty serious, many involving cars. I've never hit my head. Not once.
[/QUOTE]

You have been lucky. And it is your choice not to wear a helmet. So would you impart the "because I have never needed one wisdom" on your own children?



For the type of riding I do, and the type of accidents I'm most likely to be involved in, helmets would do little to nothing to help, therefore I don't wear one. (And no amount of flaming on an internet board is going to change that)


What kind of riding are you doing? Falling at 80 MPH, a helmet MAY have limited value. But most bicycle riders are moving anywhere from 4-40 MPH. A fall at those speeds is going to hurt but you most likely will live, if wearing a helmet. About the only accident where a helmet would have limited value is a head on collision with a automobile or truck.

Sorry but the "it they don't work in all situations" reasoning just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The seat belt in my car will be of little use if I get hit by a train while driving the car but I still wear one.

How about this, no helmet laws save that anyone not wearing a helmet while riding is precluded from seeking any liability damages from any accident. In other words, if someone hits you and you get injured, you're on your own. There may be criminal consequences for the person who hit you, but you don't get to sue.

in texas, at least, parents can serve their children alcohol. Why can't they let them ride their bikes without helmets?

The incongruencies kill me. Like the people I have to card to buy super glue, but I can sell a tank of propane to a 6-year-old if he can carry it away.

I never rode with a helmet before when I was younger. Although, I never did ride on busy highways. It was subdivision riding and riding on paths with friends or to their houses. We used to make ramps and everything so I definitely fell quite a bit. Now that I am starting to ride on roads more often, I really desire a helmet. A car cruising by at 60 mph doesn't feel all that safe. I'm just getting into biking and I've done mostly path's and trail riding, but if I want to go further, I'll need to use roads more. So I suppose my opinion on the helmet issue is that it really depends on the environment that you ride in.

ive never owned a helmet, ever. i have experienced all manner of different bike wrecks, but my head has never been hit. thus, i dont see the rational of wearing a helmet. if anything, a protective cup would have been more helpfull. as far as kids are concerned, i couldn't care less what they are or are not required to do.

Eh.. I'm in the "I dont know.." crowd.

I did some pretty scary BMX riding when I was little (things I dont have the guts to do now..) and I never seriously injured myself. Unless the kids are riding around in a horribly busy area, most kids wont be going fast enough or be riding in dangerous enough areas to be exposed to high amounts of danger.

I didnt get a helmet until I thought cruising around in a city doing 20+ mph was fun. Now, thats dangerous, and that definitely requires a helmet.

I don't play the lottery every week just because I could win someday. I guess I should.
That would be the really super highly intelligent thing to do. Money means everything.
If you fear someone in a vegetative state what does that say about you as a person? What does an extra $10 or $20 mean to you a year
extra $50?
Not that big of a deal. I say raise taxes.

How about this, no helmet laws save that anyone not wearing a helmet while riding is precluded from seeking any liability damages from any accident. In other words, if someone hits you and you get injured, you're on your own. There may be criminal consequences for the person who hit you, but you don't get to sue.

Wait I am sure the insurance companies are working on this one for motorcycle riders. The only thing that may be holding them back is liability. If a rider can prove he was injured because he was wearing a motorcycle helmet (which a limited number of injuries are actually caused by motorcycle helmets) then he would be able to sue them big time far beyond any medical costs.

The problem is that the tax payer would never be able to be relieved of medical costs caused by someone's own stupidity.

ive never owned a helmet, ever. i have experienced all manner of different bike wrecks, but my head has never been hit. thus, i dont see the rational of wearing a helmet.


You are making a lot of good sense.

I have never been in a car accident where a seat belt wold have made a difference. No need to wear uncomfortable seatbelts.

Maybe we should apply this to other areas we could save a lot of tax payer dollars.

Many fighter pilots fly their whole career without having to bail out. Why spend all those tax dollars on expensive emergency evacuation equipment?

Many police officers never draw their weapon in their whole career. No need for those pesky weapons.


I have never driven off of the road. Why put out all of those expensive guiderails?

Lifeboats on ships? They must be kidding, they are wasting their money.




as far as kids are concerned, i couldn't care less what they are or are not required to do.

Let me guess, you are a kindergarten school teacher?

You are making a lot of good sense.

I have never been in a car accident where a seat belt wold have made a difference. No need to wear uncomfortable seatbelts.

Maybe we should apply this to other areas we could save a lot of tax payer dollars.

Many fighter pilots fly their whole career without having to bail out. Why spend all those tax dollars on expensive emergency evacuation equipment?

Many police officers never draw their weapon in their whole career. No need for those pesky weapons.


I have never driven off of the road. Why put out all of those expensive guiderails?

Lifeboats on ships? They must be kidding, they are wasting their money.




Let me guess, you are a kindergarten school teacher?


i see your point. i have been in some minor fender benders, so i can vouch for the utiltiy of seatbelts. also, i have driven off the road and i appreciate guardrails. thats not to say that i must see the usefulness of a safety device first-hand. however, im not familiar with fighter pilots or police officers, so its up to their chain of command if they wish to have ejection seats or side arms. if i were to be afraid of every potential risk that i could incur, however rare, i would have MIT build me an exoskeleton. its the same reason why you dont wear knee pads (i'm assuming that you don't wear knee pads).

kindergarted teacher? hardly. i make a conscious evert to stay child-free, as i can't stand kids.

i see your point. i have been in some minor fender benders, so i can vouch for the utiltiy of seatbelts. also, i have driven off the road and i appreciate guardrails. thats not to say that i must see the usefulness of a safety device first-hand. however, im not familiar with fighter pilots or police officers, so its up to their chain of command if they wish to have ejection seats or side arms. if i were to be afraid of every potential risk that i could incur, however rare, i would have MIT build me an exoskeleton. its the same reason why you dont wear knee pads (i'm assuming that you don't wear knee pads).

kindergarted teacher? hardly. i make a conscious evert to stay child-free, as i can't stand kids.

ok, i cant spell at the moment

I was being sarcastic. :)

My point is that we are around safety devices everyday hoping that we will never make use of their full utility. Sprinkler systems in buildings are another one that comes to mind.

Wearing full leather is probably a good idea but just is not practical. You have to weigh risk with what is practical. I see don't see helmets as being impractical. I almost forget it is there until I try to scratch my head. The only benefit of not wearing one is being slightly cooler and of course being able to scratch. :)

I don't see any need for helmet laws, kids are too protected these days.

As a parent I find that comment to be extrememly insane. Not sure if you are a parent, but I'm pretty sure your opinion would be different if you were.

How about this, no helmet laws save that anyone not wearing a helmet while riding is precluded from seeking any liability damages from any accident. In other words, if someone hits you and you get injured, you're on your own. There may be criminal consequences for the person who hit you, but you don't get to sue.

And what the hell does wearing a helmet have to do with getting hit by a car??? This is the part that pisses me off... and it's something the insurance companies ARE pushing.... contributory negligence: The rider wasn't wearing a helmet, so it doesn't matter if I mowed them down because I was breaking the law, they can't sue because they weren't wearing a helmet.

It's INSANE.

As a parent I find that comment to be extrememly insane. Not sure if you are a parent, but I'm pretty sure your opinion would be different if you were.

Let's outlaw sharp knives, mandate temperature controls on hot water in bathrooms, and make it a crime to have outlets in your house that aren't covered while we're at it.

Oh... and those pesky chemicals we all have around the house? Let's have random inspections to make sure they're secured, while we're at it.

Hey, I know... let's make it a crime to serve anything to your kids that isn't healthy, and make it against the law to allow them to watch TV for more than an hour every day!

Oh... and no non-skid surfaces in your tub? You should be in jail!

cigarettes? Alcohol? illegal.

WHERE DOES IT END?

It should be YOUR responsibility to care for your child. If you think a helmet is necessary for you or your kid, fine. YOU enforce it.

It should not be a crime to enjoy a ride without a helmet.

And for those that talk about the cost to taxpayers of the few injuries that cause someone to become a 'vegetable', the medical costs to the taxpayers for diabetes and other problems due to obesity, tobacco, alcohol and AUTOMOBILE INJURIES far outweigh the few cases of someone cycling without a helmet who suffers a head injury, and by far the majority of THOSE cases are caused by collisions with... you got it AUTOMOBILES.

The fact of the matter is that there are far more effective things we can do to decrease injuries on bicycling, number one being educating motorists AND CYCLISTS on the rules of the road, and safe interaction.

Next would be advocating enforcement of the existing laws, for both motorists and cyclists. More penalties for aggressive driving, and for cyclists putting themselves and others in danger by riding illegally, running stop signs and lights.

My comment was really more about the comment about kids being too protected. Not necessarily the helmets themselves. If you feel it's your duty to be so harsh with children and leave them exposed to dangerous environments. Well that's a whole nother disturbing problem. And for the record I Do take care of my own children. Any sane and reasonable parent knows that. We don't have to be told that by anyone.

They are too protected. A friend of mine has a 5-year old daughter who recently came to him and proudly announced that she mastered the playground. Tells you something about today's playgrounds... I could go on for ages, but the ultimate point is that it sucks being a North American kid these days. That bubble wrap they are wrapped in must be awfully suffocating...

Never made any of my kids wear a helmet and guess what...never lost one bit of sleep about it and they are all alive, well and still pretty, thank you. So I imagine the next response will be some disparaging remark about what a bad parent I was, or about organ donors, or some other such nonsense that people always spout in an effort to force their own lifestyles and choices upon others.

And for those that talk about the cost to taxpayers of the few injuries that cause someone to become a 'vegetable', the medical costs to the taxpayers for diabetes and other problems due to obesity, tobacco, alcohol and AUTOMOBILE INJURIES far outweigh the few cases of someone cycling without a helmet who suffers a head injury, and by far the majority of THOSE cases are caused by collisions with... you got it AUTOMOBILES.

Don't forget the 5000 people a year killed by autos while walking. I bet some of them would have lived if they had worn a helmet while walking. I bet wearing helmets and neck braces 24/7 would save lives.

They are too protected. A friend of mine has a 5-year old daughter who recently came to him and proudly announced that she mastered the playground. Tells you something about today's playgrounds... I could go on for ages, but the ultimate point is that it sucks being a North American kid these days. That bubble wrap they are wrapped in must be awfully suffocating...

Have you heard the latest about why some many people have allergies these days? Kids are being raised in conditions so sanatary they never build up resistance to deal with them. I have also seen than colds exercise the immune system and reduce the odds of getting cancer. I say it time to reintroduce bears and wolves to city parks.

Never made any of my kids wear a helmet and guess what...never lost one bit of sleep about it and they are all alive, well and still pretty, thank you. So I imagine the next response will be some disparaging remark about what a bad parent I was, or about organ donors, or some other such nonsense that people always spout in an effort to force their own lifestyles and choices upon others.

Ya ain't going to get one from me.
I decided to not bother with the helmet in the child trailer. It's hot enough and the roll cage should protect him.
Plus, I only ride on MUPs and very low traffic streets with my son.
So, one could always yell at me for not putting a helmet on him.
Heck, I'm sure a safety ninnie would wine about me letting him ride around on his tricycle without a helmet.

most people raise kids the way they were raised. and i know very few adults who wore helmets when they were kids.

Never mind the helmets. What about parents teaching the kids to ride on sidewalks which are far more dangerous than no helmet.

The thing with Helmets and kids that bothers me is seeing a parent with their kid. Kid has a helmet, parent is bare headed. What kind of message does that give to the kid? Helmets are for kids? It is fine for kids to have to put up with stuff that adults won't? Or what.

Kids learn from our example. Perhaps that is why so many kids today have real problems. They have some pretty poor examples.

Any sane and reasonable parent knows that. We don't have to be told that by anyone.

Probably true for most of the people on this forum. The problem is that there are plenty of people out there that can barely run their own lives let alone the life of another human being. Like I said before, you need a license to practice medicine and law, to drive a car and fly an airplane. But the only qualification to create and raise a human being (the most important job in the world) is being capable of having sex with someone of the opposite sex that has similar qualifications.

As a parent of three small kids, I am ecstatic that helmet laws in California for minors were in place before they started riding their bikes. They don't see kids riding without them, so it's not a big deal to them. It's all they've ever known so it's a given that bike/scooter riding=get your darn helmet on your noggin first.

I think glases to keep all the bugs/rocks/dirt ouf of your eyes are more important than a helmet.

I thinking reducing bicycle saftey to "just wearing a helmet" is a bad habit.

I'm sick of hearing about helmets.. Is it your head? no, so it dosen't matter.. Let them splatter their brains into the grill of a Semi one day..

Never mind the helmets. What about parents teaching the kids to ride on sidewalks which are far more dangerous than no helmet.


Perhaps, a 17 year old on a racing bike should not ride on the sidewalk at 20mph. But what about six year olds? Should they be taught to ride in the street?

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/bike/images/tricycle.gif

I can just hear it now. "Hey little girl get off the sidewalk you moron! Don't you know you could kill someone with that thing?"

I think glases to keep all the bugs/rocks/dirt ouf of your eyes are more important than a helmet.

Gee gang, let's pass a law!!! Buckwheat, get me a pen!

I think glases to keep all the bugs/rocks/dirt ouf of your eyes are more important than a helmet.


And properly inflated tires, and properly tightened skewers, and care when riding over wet railroad tracks, and being alert, and not riding too close to parked cars, and using hand signals, and plenty of other things. To try to place them in order of importance is silly. There are a lot of things that one can do to be safe on a bike. I always ride with a helmet(and glasses), but they are not the be all end all of bike safety. Helmets help protect against head injuries, but won't protect you against a dog biting your ankle. That's what frame pumps are for. :) When people argue against helmets they often tout how they don't protect against everything. Flawed thinking. It's not an all or nothing proposition. Do as many things as possible(within reason) to be safe to improve your odds of getting home safely.

I wear or do the following in no particular order:
A helmet
Safety glasses rated for a firing range
Reflective ankle tape
Standard reflectors
Blinky light
Gloves
Mirror
Use handsignals when possible
Do a safety check of my bike
Check for thunderstorms(in a very flat farming community, at 5'2" I AM the tallest thing on the road)
Ride on very wide clean shoulders when they exist or in the right hand side of the lane to enourage people to give me a wide berth when passing.
Carry mace, frame pump, extra tube, and a multi-tool

Children should wear helmets at all time, period.

My children were playing yesterday and bumped into one another heads. Both got bruises.
My brother, when he was a child, fell down walking and hit his head, got serious head injury.

You see? The helmet may have prevented all that. All responsible parents should make children wear all kinds of protective equipment at all times.

You have to laugh about the helmet thing.

Yesterday I nodded at a gal on a bike, as I pass her... she gives me a dirty look, and taps her helmet, obviously thinking I'm insane for not wearing one... Meanwhile, she's riding on the left hand side of the road, ran a stop sign and two red lights, and is wearing headphones turned up loud enough that *I* could hear bits of the music FROM ACROSS THE STREET, where I'm riding legally, stopping for the signs and lights, and paying attention to my surroundings.

You gotta love it.

I'm sick of hearing about helmets.. Is it your head? no, so it dosen't matter.. Let them splatter their brains into the grill of a Semi one day..

If you are playing tag with grill of a semi a helmet isn't going to help much.

I noticed someone earlier on this thread discounted helmet use because he only rode on the MUP. That is the one place where I would never ride with a helmet. It has the highest change of an accident of some kind and also the accidents are apt to be the low to moderate speed kind where A helmet is most apt to bethe difference between major head trama and just getting back on the bike.

when you chose not to have kids, you never have to worry about stuff like this (or worry about much of anything, for that matter). :D