So I'm pretty sure my wife and I have caught the "bug." We recently picked up a Burley Tamburello and have been thouroghly enjoying our shorter "tandem training" rides. The seeds are already being sewn for the tandem upgrade.
Major factor pushing this is the current Burley is a bit too small for me. It's a medium (22/19) frame and I'm 6'4, but it fits the stoker very well. We picked it up as a trial tandem, knowing that I was barely fitting. It's still a comfortable ride, if just a little cramped. The risk was worth it, as we got a great deal and it opened up a great new experience for my wife and I to share for as long as our bodies are willing and able!
Now on to our considered upgrade options. I want to get as much "mileage" out of the current Burley and I'm considering both selling it, not sure how much it will bring (maybe $800-1000), and there is also the option of ordering a new tandem frameset and swapping over the Burley's components.
Budget for the upgrade is about $3000 out of pocket, less would be preferred. I'm factoring in recovery costs on the current Burley into budget, so my actual buying power is about $4k.
We like the ride on the Aluminum Burley, as our combined weight is around 340lbs we need a stiffer frame. For this reason I'm sort of ruling out steel Burley tandems (correct me if this seems stupid). Our local shop sells both Burley and Co-Motion. I constantly hear about the quality ride of Co-Motion, so if this was our "one" tandem I would consider spending the beans to go Co-Motion. Co-motion has a 23/18 frame option that would probably be a better fit than the large Burley 23/20 frame. We would like to have the option for S/S couplers, so a Speedster would fit the bill. Can these be retro-fitted with couplers in the future if we decided not to go with this option at first? Primary use of tandem in descending order: weekday pleasure rides, weekend extended rides, charity rides, light credit card touring, and if possible with couplers, trips by plane and tandem touring abroad.
Considering the following options for upgrade given the requirements outlined above:
1. Burley Tosa with possible upgraded carbon fork: $2500-$3000. Selling current Burley puts me $1500-2000 out of pocket for this route. Rules out possibilty of coupled travel, but it's the least out of pocket for the considered options.
2. Co-Motion Speedster with disc brake option: $4200. Selling current bike puts me about $3200-3400 out of pocket, so it's on the high end of budget availability. Possibility of coupled travel with retro-fit in the future?
3. Purchase co-motion speedster frameset with disc brake: $2300. Using parts from current Burley would put us with a speedster using cheaper components than the complete new bike. Total cost out of pocket is purchase price of frameset and any labor or small part costs to complete the swap. Possibility of coupled travel in the future? For some reason this seems to be the most attractive option to me.
4. Purchase co-motion roadster frameset with disc brake: $3400. Same situation as number 3 with part swap keeps out of pocket costs around $3500, so on the top end or slightly above what would be comfortable. Would have a very nice frameset, but no possibility of coupled travel in the future.
I'm not too familiar with the quality differences in components or parts. I don't have much to base comparisons on the value of better componentry vs. our cost benefit for using the current Burley parts in a frameset swap. Is this generally even considered a "good idea?"
Looking for opinions, suggestions, or possible other options we haven't considered. I'll be going down to talk to the tandem folks at our LBS within a week or so to get the wheels turning.
Sorry for the long-winded post, but we greatly appreciate your time in helping us through our decisions.
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.
Reads like you're talking yourself into the Co-motion :).
A test ride of both will help I hope (like/want one more than the other). You would need some research on parts compatibility between the two: Seatposts and hubs. I am not sure if eccentrics are standard or not. Someone else will know the answer to that. The buildup option leaves you with a tougher to sell frame. It would be a little project but it sounds doable. You know you would be buying some tools, lol. Hopefully you'd have a good shop that could do the parts you can't or don't want to do (facing, headset race setting, etc).
Some tandems can be retrofitted with S&S. I think a limiting factor is the boom. They were not offering a coupler for ovalized boom tubes from what I read. Again, someone else would have to give you the specifics on that. Maybe conversion capability will be a deciding factor in your frame choice.
Mucho Luck.
rjberner
You have a fun project - selecting a new tandem! Here's my two sense:
1. F-I-T. Select the frame that fits well and then noodle the financing. It sounds like the stock Burleys will not fit you correctly. If necessary, pay for a fit kit session at a local pro shop and send the data onto the people at Co-Mo and Burley and Santana.
2. Get the best componetry you can with the bike because it costs a small fortune to retrofit. Be sure to test ride and compare a carbon fork over the stock steelies for comfort and handling. In our case, the carbon fork option changed our alum. frame from a good bike to a great bike. Each to his own...........
Have fun and good luck!
TandemGeek
From the archives and a similar question about retrofitting Co-Motion tandem frames:
About Co-Motion & Retrofits: http://www.co-motion.com/S&Sretrofit.html
More about Co-Motion: The Reynolds 725 tubeset used to build all of their S&S equipped Co-Pilots and the non-S&S Primera is drawn specifically for use with the S&S couplers with thicker butted zones at the coupler installation points. It's also a better material for brazing vs. the lighter Reynolds 631 that is drawn for use on their Speedster, Cappuccino, Mocha, and Supremo models.
I'd also recommend selling or getting the dealer who just sold you the improperly fitted bike to give you a healthy credit toward the purchase of a new tandem that does fit. As for which model, you'll need to decide which is more important:
Aluminum, Steel, or Coupled-Steel. Co-Motion produces the stiffest production tandems on the market and what the Alu tubeset gets you is a lighter frame, not so much added stiffness.
Ultregra level components or S&S couplers. If you don't plan to travel a lot, S&S couplers are a very expensive upgrade. However, if travel is in your future, then they are IMHO, well worth the expense as they eliminate just about all the logistical challenges of travelling with a bike of any size, never mind one that won't fit into shuttle buses, rental cars, etc...
In short, you seem to be wedged in between the $3999 uncoupled Speedster and the $4,299 S&S Primera if you can stretch your budget. The component differences once you get to the 105 level can be hard to quantify in terms of added value unless you're either super-sensitive to the slight improvements in fit, finish, weight, and performance or would otherwise just see the lower-end components as a compromise that would bother you later on and necessitate costly upgrades. By costly upgrades, at least with Co-Motion the higher end bike pricing has a direct relationship with the cost of the premium components: there's no real "package discount" if you will. So, unless you have the discipline (not to mention the good fortune needed) to sell off your old components for a fair return, you can end up spending as much or more on your tandem over the course of a year or two than it would have cost to buy the model you really wanted at first.
Just something to keep in mind.
mtbcyclist
You may want to consider a Burley Rivizza. I got one last year with a carbon fork and really enjoy it. My wife is NOT a cyclist and I am a 16 year vetran cyclist. She never once complained about a harsh ride and we were doing 50 mile rides before she got pregant at a pretty good pace. She does not ride with a suspension seat post either. I tend to like the stiffer feel of aluminum as it is more responsive but not so stiff that it makes for a harsh ride (IMO). Don't ride it much now because a baby just showed up but hopefully in another year that will all change as he gets old enough to be put in a trailer.
I think finding a descent setup in your price range with couplers will be next to impossible unless you can scare up a great used bike or a great deal somewhere. Good luck.
mdj
Hi mtbcyclist.
I am looking at a Rivazza as well but want to outfit it with Arkel panniers for touring. See my other post for details please. Do you have any experience with panniers on your Rivazza? Maybe a trailer would be a better option?
Thanks
R900
On paper I would go with option #2, buy the best you can afford. I think you are better off selling your Burley whole, rather then trying to swap parts. Because of some parts may not interchange, and unforseen upgrades, you may well spend more then you plan, and still have used lower end equipment.
On the couplers, if you want them now is the time.
Finally, I would ride as many tandems as you can. There are lots of great bikes around, and each will ride and feel a bit different. You may end up with something you never planned on.
John
P.S. We ended up keeping our entry level Fuji tandem, for kids, etc... I added a child stroker kit, and I don't loose any sleep loaning it to friends. Depending on your Burley, it may make sense to keep it for loaner, rain, kids, etc...
KnoxBreezer
Thanks for the suggestions!
Looks like the idea of a part swap to a new frameset is probably not a good one, but I'll still explore it with the shop just to get their input.
The major decision seems to be whether we would want a coupled bike at this stage of the game. We do travel a bit, usually getting out of the country at least once a year. Having the option to carry our tandem with us would open up a lot of possibilities, however we're planning kids in the near future and that may sidetrack lots of travel (especially with bikes) for a little while. 'Course, having coupled frame may make it easier to transport bike and trailer when little ones get big enough to be hauled around...
If we did not choose a coupled bike, I'm almost certain we would go for the Burley Tosa, as it would provide us a great value and we'd have a properly fitting cycle. My stoker shows 6 1/2in of seatpost on the current M (22/19), so the only measure that's different for her on the L (23/20) Burley tandems is about an extra inch of seat tube. I don't see any reason why the Large Burley frame wouldn't be a good fit. A Tosa, even with carbon fork upgrade, would only have us about $2k out of pocket after selling the current tandem.
TandemGeek raised the possibility of the Primera Co-pilot, something I hadn't considered. I'm interested in the differences between the Primera co-pilot and Speedster co-pilot. I read several threads talking about the coupled Speedster and Supremo having a different steel than the coupled Primera? Are these differences noticeable, or is it mainly about having better components? If we're even considering the expense of a coupled bike should we just take the plunge and go the extra $1k for a Speedster Co-Pilot? This would certainly stretch our budget, but maybe we can get a deal from the shop that will help ease the pain? Primera Co-Pilot would have us $3400 or so out of pocket, and the Speedster Co-Pilot, about $4400, after selling our Tamburello.
The major decision for us now becomes whether it's worth the $1500-2500 difference over the Burley Tosa to start off with a coupled tandem. It's a hard decision, because that's nearly 2x the price of the Burely (which I know we would be perfectly happy with, even without easy travel options for it).
zonatandem
If you plan to fly/travel at least twice a year on a regular basis and you plan to keep the tandem for several years, then the investment in a Co-Mo S&S will be well worth it.
Selling a 'bare' used tandem frameset will be problematic and take quite a while; also as previously stated, not all parts from present tandem will fit on future tandem.
Upgrading also leaves you with extra tandem parts collecting dust.
If you can afford 'new' go for it . . . but proper fit is the first prerequisite!
TandemGeek
I'm interested in the differences between the Primera co-pilot and Speedster co-pilot. I read several threads talking about the coupled Speedster and Supremo having a different steel than the coupled Primera? .
No... the coupled Speedster, Supremo and Primera all use the same Reynolds 725 tubeset as the uncoupled Primera. The UNCOUPLED Speedster and Supremo use a Reynolds 631 tubeset which provides for some added weight reductions without any reduction in stiffness.
Are these differences noticeable, or is it mainly about having better components?
Co-Motion's frames are all very stiff compared to most others. In talking with Dwan, they craft their different tubesets -- the 725, 631, and Easton 7000 Series -- to deliver the same stiffness but with the inherent weight savings associated with the air hardened steel and aluminum tubesets.
As for components, as you move up the Co-Motion range from Primeria to Speedster to Supremo you get the more lightweight (and more expensive) components (period) until you add the Wound Up carbon fork which uses even less rake than Co-Motion's very "sporty" standard 50mm forks. Thus, the difference between a non-coupled Speedster & Supremo is the cost of the lighter, higher-performance components and the placement of the brake mounts (canti-bosses on the Speedster or calipers on the Supremo).
If we're even considering the expense of a coupled bike should we just take the plunge and go the extra $1k for a Speedster Co-Pilot? This would certainly stretch our budget, but maybe we can get a deal from the shop that will help ease the pain? Primera Co-Pilot would have us $3400 or so out of pocket, and the Speedster Co-Pilot, about $4400, after selling our Tamburello.
Burley offers some very nice tandems for very attractive pricing: in fact, I'm not sure how they are getting by on such slim margins and how long that can last. However, as the consumer you win... just beware of the timing on deliveries as some more recent postings from Burley buyers indicates they are backed up due to parts supplier shortages (I won't speculate on the root cause). As for the Co-Motion options, it's really a very personal decision. I believe a carefully spec'd Speedster will provide most buyers with a tandem that will easily last them many years before they will "feel the need" for any upgrades -- and that assumes technology advances. The Primera is an excellent tandem and the S&S model is a very good value. However, if you like riding "the good stuff", will feel like you cut corners buying the Primera, and can see yourself slowing upgrading the shifters, rear deraillueur, and cranks for the higher-zoot stuff within a few months, then you're merely spreading out the cost of the Speedster (and then some; see earlier post).
Bottom Line: Make sure the thing fits this time: any of the tandems you're considering are very good bikes.
KnoxBreezer
Thanks again for the advice and suggestions! Your input and shared experience is invaluable.
I have the shop checking prices with Burley on a Tosa with the upgraded Alpha Q BDC2 carbon fork, and a Rivazza without the Rolf Vigor wheels. Without the Rolf wheels, the Rivazza will still be in our budget for out of pocket cost and it would be "the best we can afford" without going over to a Co-Motion and drooling over the Speedster Co-Pilot. I know we'd be perfectly happy with the Tosa too, so it'll be a cost/benefit analysis of what we'd be getting component-wise Tosa vs. Rivazza. Anyone have opinions on this? Rivazza would allow more color choices, although I actually kinda dig the Firebird Red of the Tosa.
As far as getting help from the shop for selling us an initially undersized tandem... is it common for tandem shops to take used tandems on "trade in" (it's an 05, so it's pretty mint)? Is consignment selling through shops common? I want to explore options and allow them multiple avenues to give me a little extra help but I don't want to suggestion or ask anything that may be out of bounds. Is my best bet to just try and angle a discount on our new purchase price and sell the old Burley on my own?
KnoxBreezer
Burley Tosa with upgraded carbon fork is now on order. Burley says 6 weeks, but expecting more like 8 weeks.
Unfortunately Burley will not swap out the Rolf wheels on the Rivazza for the Tosa's Weinmann 40 spoke wheels. Well, they will, they just won't give you any credit for it. This pretty much made up our mind for the Tosa and the upgraded fork.
Thanks to everyone for their suggestions.
There will be a nice medium framed Burley Tamburello for sale in about 2 months. Can't beat Buttercup!
ElRey
Get the big Speedster frame and swap the components over. S&S can not be retrofitted on a Co Mo, as the frame tubes aren't the same. I have an S&S CO MO. Rides great.
Bill G
Glad you decided to upgrade and get your tandem to fit you properly. ;) You will not regret it, proper fit makes all the diffrence in the world when it comes to comfort and performance.:D
Good luck I am sure your new tandem will be sweet,:)
Bill G
jksu2000
let us know when the tosa arrives....did you get the red or black? what fork did you end up getting? alpha q?