Mountain Biking - leaning in turns

I was riding yesterday and my friends pointed out the fact that I don't lean as much as I should. I knew I did this, but I didn't realize how much it was slowing me down untill now. I have the bad habit of turning the handlebars in turns vs leaning like I should. Are there any of you that used to do this? I'm gusssing once I properly lean into turns I'll be much faster on the trails.

I used to suck at turning, but i just have to remember the keep my belly button over the bottom bracket and i'm fine! i find it quicker.

I was riding yesterday and my friends pointed out the fact that I don't lean as much as I should. I knew I did this, but I didn't realize how much it was slowing me down untill now. I have the bad habit of turning the handlebars in turns vs leaning like I should. Are there any of you that used to do this? I'm gusssing once I properly lean into turns I'll be much faster on the trails.
i just do whatever the situation and/or terrain calls for. some places you shouldn't lean. (ie tree inside turn)

i think you should tell your friend to stuff it :D

Practice.

Cornering is an art form. Just wait until you get lean enough to scrape the pedal body of SPDs on the ground...or worse, the sole of your shoe.

I was riding yesterday and my friends pointed out the fact that I don't lean as much as I should. I knew I did this, but I didn't realize how much it was slowing me down untill now. I have the bad habit of turning the handlebars in turns vs leaning like I should. Are there any of you that used to do this? I'm gusssing once I properly lean into turns I'll be much faster on the trails.

As with all things mountain bike, there is no one way of doing anything. In some situations, you may want to lean hard over for a curve and in others you might not. You have to be the judge of when to do it and when it's better to steer with the bars.

I have the feeling, however, that you may be using the bars to steer too much which is why you get the comments. Watch your buddies as they go into corners and try to emulate their moves. For example, when you come to a relatively flat, fast corner where is you outside leg relative to the curve? Your outside leg should be at the bottom of the stroke and- here's the real key - you should be pushing down hard with your outside leg! By pushing on the pedal, you are loading the tires and making them stick to the ground better. Drop your inner shoulder a little and push on the outer bar (it helps put even more force on the tires). Now you are carving the curve instead of just turning.

I'd suggest trying to find a nice wide, relatively flat, open trail where you can practice going fast without having to concentrate on obstacles. Go into the corner wide then carve down towards the apex of the curve and then come out of the corner wide again. Try to do all of your braking before you hit the corner and then zoom through.

Practice lots, then go school your friends;)

I was riding yesterday and my friends pointed out the fact that I don't lean as much as I should. I knew I did this, but I didn't realize how much it was slowing me down untill now. I have the bad habit of turning the handlebars in turns vs leaning like I should. Are there any of you that used to do this? I'm gusssing once I properly lean into turns I'll be much faster on the trails.

You will have to progressively push your limits more and more. This is the only way to learn. Expect that you will crash occasionally.

My leans in turns tend to be VERY abrupt. There is usually just that "special place" where the leans will get you around. If you're friend is more experienced, I would suggest following him around on the trail. Try to replicate his movements and his lines.

Monkey see, Monkey try, sometimes Monkey Crash. If Monkey afraid of crashing, Monkey never learn anything new.


One more tip. There is also a technique for sharp turns where you lean your BODY into the turn but lean the BIKE away from the turn. Obviously this must be done from a standing position. What it accomplishes is getting your body through the turn while keep the tire relatively upright where they have the most traction.

i just do whatever the situation and/or terrain calls for. some places you shouldn't lean. (ie tree inside turn)

i think you should tell your friend to stuff it :D

Sure you should. You should lean such that your head misses the tree by a couple inches. Try riding a wider line for a little more lean.

Sure you should. You should lean such that your head misses the tree by a couple inches. Try riding a wider line for a little more lean.
i was refering to handlebars clipping trees between narrow obstacles...have fun!

I don't want to steal your thread or anything...but can someone explain how to take a burm going down hill properly? Whenever I take one I got the lean down right but are you supposed to be leaning over the seat? That’s what I always seem to do.

try countersteering through the corners. As you load up your weight to the inside, then throw a smidge of countersteering in, the bike will really rail over through the corners. It also helps to load up the pedals as you rip through.

one thing to remember in a corner..
when you hit your brakes you have a higher chance of crashing.
if your wheels are rolling you have traction... for the most part

i just do whatever the situation and/or terrain calls for. some places you shouldn't lean. (ie tree inside turn)

i think you should tell your friend to stuff it :D

Hahaha...leaning into a tree is rough...very rough. :)

I don't want to steal your thread or anything...but can someone explain how to take a burm going down hill properly? Whenever I take one I got the lean down right but are you supposed to be leaning over the seat? That’s what I always seem to do.

Varries on the berm and the exit. Traditionally I ride the berm high and lean the bike so it is 90degrees to the face of the berm, however sometimes it is faster to ride into the berm and really drive the rear end into the face and pull out fast.

Practice all sorts of techniques so you can adapt to a situation. That way if you mess up your entrance you won't panic and use the berm as a jump. For body position I try to see balanced to the centre of the bike. When I panic, I lean back, but as my mx buddies yell at me constantly for it, I need to focus on throwing my body forward.

Thanks for the advice Maelstrom...I'm heading out to our local freeride park so I'll try and work on what you suggested. Thanks again!

try countersteering through the corners. As you load up your weight to the inside, then throw a smidge of countersteering in, the bike will really rail over through the corners. It also helps to load up the pedals as you rip through.

*DING* To really get your lean on, you should try this. Make sure you have speed and push left to go left, and vice-versa.

http://homepage.mac.com/bicycle_driver/PhotoAlbum19.html

It's pretty ballsy, but there's no other way (for me) to get a lean. Just make sure you have speed. Speed = Stability. Good luck.

*DING* To really get your lean on, you should try this. Make sure you have speed and push left to go left, and vice-versa.

http://homepage.mac.com/bicycle_driver/PhotoAlbum19.html

It's pretty ballsy, but there's no other way (for me) to get a lean. Just make sure you have speed. Speed = Stability. Good luck.

Much, too much, is made of counter steering. Here's what Sheldon Brown has to say about it

Countersteering
When a bicycle turns, it must lean into the direction of the turn so that the tilt of the bicycle and rider counterbalances the "centrifugal force" created by the act of turning.

In order to turn left, you start by turning the handlebars to the right for a moment. This moves the front wheel out to the right of the center of gravity, so the bike will start to fall to the left. This is immediately follwed by turning the handlebars to the left to cause the bike to remain in balance, which also creates the desired left turn. "Countersteering" refers to the momentary motion of the handlebars in the opposite direction of the desired turn.

Some people, particularly motorcyclists, make a big deal out of this as if countersteering is some special advanced riding technique that you must learn to become an expert bike handler. It isn't. It's just a fancy sounding name for the normal process by which any two-wheeler (or even a unicycle) is controlled.

(Note that he does have it wrong about "centrifugal force". It doesn't exist. The proper term is centripital force which is the force being expressed on the wheels to keep them in a curve.)

Countersteering is rather subtle and only done at the start of the turn.

Looking at the pictures you linked to, there is a major problem with the turn being demonstrated. If you were to go into a turn with pedals parallel to the ground like that at a high rate of speed, you'd be on the ground quicker than you could say neosporin! Keeping the inside pedal on the top of the stroke keeps the pedal from striking the ground (a bad thing) but it also puts your weight where it needs to be which is on the outside of the curve pushing down on the bike. This 'glues' you tires to the ground and allows you to corner faster. It's analogous to skiing (I'm not a skier;) but I understand the concept) and weighting the uphill ski in a turn. When the tires are weighted properly, the tires 'pull' you (centripetal force) around the curve.

Much, too much, is made of counter steering. Here's what Sheldon Brown has to say about it

Countersteering
When a bicycle turns, it must lean into the direction of the turn so that the tilt of the bicycle and rider counterbalances the "centrifugal force" created by the act of turning.

In order to turn left, you start by turning the handlebars to the right for a moment. This moves the front wheel out to the right of the center of gravity, so the bike will start to fall to the left. This is immediately follwed by turning the handlebars to the left to cause the bike to remain in balance, which also creates the desired left turn. "Countersteering" refers to the momentary motion of the handlebars in the opposite direction of the desired turn.

Some people, particularly motorcyclists, make a big deal out of this as if countersteering is some special advanced riding technique that you must learn to become an expert bike handler. It isn't. It's just a fancy sounding name for the normal process by which any two-wheeler (or even a unicycle) is controlled.

(Note that he does have it wrong about "centrifugal force". It doesn't exist. The proper term is centripital force which is the force being expressed on the wheels to keep them in a curve.)

Countersteering is rather subtle and only done at the start of the turn.



As much as I respect Sheldon, it's clear he hasn't ever ridden a motorcycle above 30 mph. In this case, countersteering is not a momentary thing done at the start of a turn, it's done constantly throughout a turn.

Much, too much, is made of counter steering. Here's what Sheldon Brown has to say about it
:rolleyes:

http://www.observedtrials.net/vb/images/smilie/umno.gif

okay, maybe i misinterpreted what S Brown was saying about motorcycles?? is he saying motorcyclists who ride bicycles make a big deal about c-steering on bicycles? or is he saying motorcyclists make a big deal about c-steering on motorcycles??

two words for you:

speedway racing

http://xtremesport.org/newyears.jpg

http://www.observedtrials.net/vb/images/smilie/werd.gif

Just go into the corner, lean the bike over but try and keep your body upright. For the corner to be perfect, ideally you want to lean the bike over as far as comfortable (ideally just as you start to feel the wheels sliding). Your inside knee can bend but it is preferable to keep it tucked away, inside pedal at 12 o'clock, outside knee pushed into the frame and head directly vertical and looking at where you want to go, not what you ar etrying to miss.

You wil be surprised how much you can lean your bike, and if you have the brakes on (even if not locked up) you will understeer compare dto free moving wheels.

If you want to slide through a corner it is all about confidence, lean the bike as far as you can, as you feel friction starting to slip counter steer. That is all I have to say, turn until you slide, it is a very simpl econcept but not the easiest technique to master. To make the rear lose grip earlier you can either lean forward a bit (can be bad form). This is pretty much only advantageous through high speed long open corners.

Here are a bunch of photo's of people railing berms, sometimes a little too far.

This one is excellent technique, keeps knees in and head vertical
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c178/Hopper890/inbuiltberm.jpg

Higher speeds allow for more tilt
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c178/Hopper890/CrazyCrazyfrenchman.jpg

Scope th ecorner first, he hit hi spedal on the elevated inside! Now it is time to eat dirt
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c178/Hopper890/bouttoeatdirt.jpg

This is an odd technique for bermed corners, but for long fast berms with little elevation drop it can be quicker
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c178/Hopper890/bermdestruction.jpg

This guy is just silly
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c178/Hopper890/EatingDirt.jpg

:rolleyes:

http://www.observedtrials.net/vb/images/smilie/umno.gif

okay, maybe i misinterpreted what S Brown was saying about motorcycles?? is he saying motorcyclists who ride bicycles make a big deal about c-steering on bicycles? or is he saying motorcyclists make a big deal about c-steering on motorcycles??

two words for you:

speedway racing



The picture you have is showing the classic techique of turning into a slide. It's a bit extreme but it's not an example of counter steering on a bicycle or even a motorcycle ridden under normal conditions. Even people in cars that are sliding know to steer into the turn. I've drifted enough dirt roads in eastern Colorado to know how to do this maneuver.

But watch your front wheel as you go around a corner (without sliding it) on pavement or on dirt and you will see that you don't turn left to go right through the turn. Your wheel is pulling you to the right (for a right hand turn) throughout the turn. Your weight should be pressing down on the outside of the bike on the curve (even your picture shows that).

For another motorcycle example (at high speeds;) ) look at the guys who race on pavement. They lean way over into the curves and their wheels aren't pointed out of the curve but into it. There are a whole bunch of images that demonstate this here (http://www.geocities.com/wmrc2003round23/)

Also look at the pictures that Hopper posted. In each one where the guy isn't on the ground, the wheel is pointed into the corner, not away from it.

The picture you have is showing the classic techique of turning into a slide. It's a bit extreme but it's not an example of counter steering on a bicycle or even a motorcycle ridden under normal conditions. Even people in cars that are sliding know to steer into the turn. I've drifted enough dirt roads in eastern Colorado to know how to do this maneuver.
http://www.observedtrials.net/vb/images/smilie/wuteva.gif
if that is not c-steering, than i don't know how you're defining it. i guess i don't know what c-steering is. we'll leave it at that.:rolleyes:


Your weight should be pressing down on the outside of the bike on the curve (even your picture shows that).
oh, maybe that is what i have been doing wrong. i have raced quite a few years on motorcycles, i don't need any schooling.


For another motorcycle example (at high speeds;) ) look at the guys who race on pavement. They lean way over into the curves and their wheels aren't pointed out of the curve but into it. There are a whole bunch of images that demonstate this here (http://www.geocities.com/wmrc2003round23/)
those pictures suck :D their wheels aren't always pointing like that. please, first off it's dynamic. there are changes and corrections going on....not the capture of a 'moment in time' on film so you can tell me which way their front wheel is pointing. :rolleyes:


Also look at the pictures that Hopper posted. In each one where the guy isn't on the ground, the wheel is pointed into the corner, not away from it.
cool, maybe you can copy and paste more info from S Brown's site so i can learn how to ride a motorcycle better. some of the stuff that guy says on his site rubs me the wrong way. honestly, i haven't read much useful info there. i did use his lacing pattern for assistance in my wheel build though!! http://www.observedtrials.net/vb/images/smilie/bigthumb.gif

i have learned more from you and the other knowledgeable cyclers on this forum. i just get a kick out of your posts sometimes.

cool, maybe you can copy and paste more info from S Brown's site so i can learn how to ride a motorcycle better. some of the stuff that guy says on his site rubs me the wrong way. honestly, i haven't read much useful info there. i did use his lacing pattern for assistance in my wheel build though!!

Indeed, I was left in doubt when he said frame materials are all the same and carbon and steel vibration damping properties are a myth... my steel frame had less vibrations than my alumnium frame, it even a worse fork but the ride had less vibrations and I know it and thats not the only thing... so now I take the information on Sheldon's page open minded but I do not swear its true until I experience it first hand or I know for sure it is the truth.

Matter of fact, first hand experience is the only way to really know.

Indeed, I was left in doubt when he said frame materials are all the same and carbon and steel vibration damping properties are a myth... my steel frame had less vibrations than my alumnium frame, it even a worse fork but the ride had less vibrations and I know it and thats not the only thing... so now I take the information on Sheldon's page open minded but I do not swear its true until I experience it first hand or I know for sure it is the truth.

Matter of fact, first hand experience is the only way to really know.

Keep in mind sheldon is a different generation within a different type of riding. I take what he says and try to apply it to the way I ride. It worked when I was xcish and slower. But when I do my downhill his rules tend not to apply. That said I do believe he doesn't even believe downhill and freeride should exist or be so sport specific. Which might be why his rules never change.

To all you who say counter steering...yehaw, yes its great, but it is a very difficult thing to pull off. Some people forget it is one of the most difficult things to do imo. Manualling, wheelies, bunnyhops all at speed are easier. I still can't countersteer well, especially off to one side.

i don't know. S Brown reminds me of W Buffet. he, his website, and the info on his site are dated.

http://www.observedtrials.net/vb/images/smilie/wuteva.gif
if that is not c-steering, than i don't know how you're defining it. i guess i don't know what c-steering is. we'll leave it at that.:rolleyes:

The picture of the speed tracker did show countersteering...just extreme countersteering. I was incorrect. But the type of countersteering that people were suggesting for the original poster isn't that type of countersteering. Yes, you turn away from the curve as you enter it but once in the curve, under normal cornering, the front wheel is turned towards the curve not away. It's simple physics. If the rear end were to break loose, then you'd countersteer.


oh, maybe that is what i have been doing wrong. i have raced quite a few years on motorcycles, i don't need any schooling.

The comments on technique were not directed at you but at others who might be following the discussion. Since the is an open forum, I assume that others are reading what I write and respond apporpriately.


those pictures suck :D their wheels aren't always pointing like that. please, first off it's dynamic. there are changes and corrections going on....not the capture of a 'moment in time' on film so you can tell me which way their front wheel is pointing. :rolleyes:

Yes, I know it's dynamic but, in the middle of the curve, their wheels still point towards the way they are turning, not away from the apex of the curve unless they have done something very wrong. I'm not a big fan of racing but I've seen enough moving pictures to say that they aren't "turning right to go left". Their lean and wheel direction are towards the turn.


cool, maybe you can copy and paste more info from S Brown's site so i can learn how to ride a motorcycle better. some of the stuff that guy says on his site rubs me the wrong way. honestly, i haven't read much useful info there. i did use his lacing pattern for assistance in my wheel build though!! http://www.observedtrials.net/vb/images/smilie/bigthumb.gif

To each his own. Again, I assume that other people are reading what I post.


i have learned more from you and the other knowledgeable cyclers on this forum. i just get a kick out of your posts sometimes.

Oh, I get it! Sarcasm!

i don't know. S Brown reminds me of W Buffet. he, his website, and the info on his site are dated.

Why don't you send him a PM and let him know? Sheldon Brown (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=3316)

To me, counter steering sounds ********.

I'll turn left to force the bicycle to lean right? Bull. I'll just lean to the right with my weight and turn right.

OMGAMAZING!

Why don't you send him a PM and let him know? Sheldon Brown (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=3316)
do you want me to? then he is going to ask for specifics and i don't feel like reading through everything to see the things i remember i didn't like last summer. then he is going to say he is too busy to make web site enhancements. but if you think i care he reads this, i don't. you can message it to him :D if he doesn't like me it makes no difference

Oh, I get it! Sarcasm!

no, i was serious. i do think you're very knowledgeable along with others here. i was just in an argumentative mood, sorry.

there is a lot more power sliding going on in grande prix racing than is always noticeable as an observer...especially on clips from motoworld on espn2 at 130am monday morning

k, this is what i messaged him...he has no PM, just email

Originally Posted by mx_599
i don't know. S Brown reminds me of W Buffet. he, his website, and the info on his site are dated.

Originally Posted Gastro
Why don't you send him a PM and let him know?

no, i was serious. i do think you're very knowledgeable along with others here. i was just in an argumentative mood, sorry.

there is a lot more power sliding going on in grande prix racing than is always noticeable as an observer...especially on clips from motoworld on espn2 at 130am monday morning

We all get that way from time to time.

I would suspect that there would be a lot of sliding in the motorcycle racing but I doubt that they'd want to be like the speed track guy either :eek:

here is his reply. wow, i just wasted S Brown's time, my time, and everyone reading this thread's time


Yep, I haven't kept up with the changes in the laws of physics and geometry... ;-)

All the best,

Sheldon
--
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com
Useful articles about bicycles and cycling
http://sheldonbrown.com

Getting a little off topic here, but on a motorcycle the only way to turn is to countersteer. Even riders that say that they don't, they just don't know it consciously.

Here's an extreme example
http://img325.imageshack.us/img325/3968/countersteer7kf.th.jpg (http://img325.imageshack.us/my.php?image=countersteer7kf.jpg)

The bars don't turn the bike, the lean does. The only way to induce that lean is to countersteer. When on your bicycle on a flat surface at speed, do you notice that you may feint the opposite direction before turning the bars to turn? That's because you're trying to induce lean. Though subtle on a bicycle, the motion is very real on a motorcycle.

All I'm saying, is that the same technique can be used to induce a deeper lean on a bicycle on a flat surface. Try it. Learn it. Apply it. It works for me.

For the non-believers, check this (http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php) out

Yeah I was also going to say that counter steering is just a steering technique you develop inconsciously because most cornering has to be done that way, it may not be so with bicycles but with motorcycles its a lot more noticeable, yeah I used to ride MX back when I was younger :p I may not have raced or be too good but I did learn that countersteering is just something you eventually develop... its no complex science but then again dirt bikes are lighter and more similar to MTBs than street/race/motogp bikes so then again, maybe at high speeds and on 1000cc race bikes countersteering IS a science but I don't have any experience with street bikes, just the good ol motocross bikes.

Yes, I know it's dynamic but, in the middle of the curve, their wheels still point towards the way they are turning, not away from the apex of the curve unless they have done something very wrong. I'm not a big fan of racing but I've seen enough moving pictures to say that they aren't "turning right to go left". Their lean and wheel direction are towards the turn.

Look at the pictures again. Whether or not the tire actually turns opposite the direction of the turn (which it does in extreme examples of countersteer like the one of the street bike posted above) the riders are still countersteering.

For example:
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c178/Hopper890/CrazyCrazyfrenchman.jpg

Look at the guys left arm in this pic. All of his upper body force is attempting to pull the wheel to a direction opposite the direction of the turn. Yeah his wheel is tracking more or less through the right hand turn, but he's actively attempting to turn his bars to the left. This technique is what is helping him get such extreme lean in the corner. Classic example of countersteering.

I do however agree that I wouldn't necessarily call the what the circle track dirt bike is doing countersteering...at least as the definition pertains to this discussion.

While turning you are continually making adjustments to keep going in the direction you want. If your rear end starts to lose traction, you will instinctively turn your bars out of the corner to try and catch it. If you keep the balance of rear sliding and correct bar positioning you can hold this slide, best place to practice this is on a long, open and dusty corner.

As said above, if turning hard you will be pushing hard against the bars, this is notcieable if you have to pump over a bump mid corner, as the weight of the bike lifts off the tyres the front wheel will turn to the outside of the corner. Unfortunately I don't have any clear photo's of this occuring, the closest to this I can give is a jump mid corner and again I only have 6 riders doing this, 4 are straight, 1 is styling it up (Damn Grant Allen) and the other is fuzzy.

I haven't ridden any motorcycles, but I agree with what Hopper said. I would guess the main differences (pertaining to this issue) between a bicycle and a motorcycle of any sort are that you can apply power during the turn on a motorcycle and that a motorcycle is much heavier than a bicycle. This combination (but especially the power) will tend to bring the rear out. On a bicycle, the rear will tend to slide out as well, but considerably less notably. Again, as Hopper said, if the rear starts to slide noticeably on a bike, you'll turn the bars away from the turn to catch the slide.

This is pure speculation, but I imagine that countersteering is useful for motorcycles so that you can apply a bit more power in the turn and get through faster. Motorcycle riders: do you countersteer before the apex? (excluding, of course, at turn-in)

Very interesting thread!

The motorcycle example does not work for biking. The linked article demonstrated that you can't steer a motorcycle with body lean alone (hands off the handlebar). However, one CAN lean and turn a bike without touching the bars. It seems motorcycles and bikes turn differently for a variety of reasons, although the underlying physics may be the same.


... But the type of countersteering that people were suggesting for the original poster isn't that type of countersteering. Yes, you turn away from the curve as you enter it but once in the curve, under normal cornering, the front wheel is turned towards the curve not away. It's simple physics. If the rear end were to break loose, then you'd countersteer.

That's a good point- yes, setting yourself up for a turn using countersteering vs. countersteering during the turn.

Another point worth mentioning - those cool pics above of dirt/MTB bikes turning had a berm/bank. This is a very different type of turning from turning on a flat surface, like the link to the roadie turn demonstrated.

Concerning the first definition of countersteering, I just ran an experiment to figure it out in my own head.
1. First, I kept the bike straight and handlebars straight. By golly, the bike went straight.
2. Second, I leaned to the left and kept the handlebars straight. I fell over and skinned my left knee. Hmmm.
3. Third, I found that I could keep the bike straight when leaning to the left if I leaned the bike to the right.
4. Fourth, I took a wide left turn, leaning into it and was successful. Yipee.
5. Fifth, I tried the same turn without banking, and with enough speed, my body continued to go straight while my bike pointed into the turn. I did a Superman maneuver, and scraped my right elbow.
6. Sixth, I tried a little (though pronounced) countersteer before the left turn. During the countersteer, my body was moving forward and a little down and away from the bike, similar to the feeling I had when turning my bike and not my body in step five. Subsequently I exited the countersteer, leaned, and made the left turn. I noticed that from this point, getting into the lean and the turn was quicker than when I simply entered the turn in step 4. I noticed also that countersteering starts just a brief moment/few feet before the turn: you can't just start your lean earlier (because you will start turning earlier or fall over and skin your knee (step 2)) and a countersteer after entering the turn can have disasterous results (fell and had to pick gravel out of my face). These results led my to this theory:

When making a turn just using lean, you are moving your weight to the side so that gravity pulls you down into a position to counter the centifugal force that pulls you away from the turn. Gravity can work slow compared to centrifugal force, so we need to slow up for turns or else centrifugal force pulls ypu out before gravity pulls you down to where we are balanced. You can't start leaning before the turn to get gravity working toward lowering your body poistion (step 2 showed me that I would fall fast). However, we can use countersteering just before the turn to basically throw our body forward and downward (step 5). This results in our body now being positioned to the inside of the turn. That is, if you are entering a left turn, your body will be positioned a little left of your bike and starting to fall, which is the position we want to be in to lean into the turn. Now as you enter the turn, your body position is already lower and to the side of the bike that is inside the turn. As a result of countersteering, you are able to get your body into a leaning position BEFORE the turn so that you don't need to slow up and wait for gravity to do it's work.

Similarly to a motorcycle, you cannot turn a bicycle without the front wheel deflecting relative to the "forward" axis of motion. The quick answer is that you rock the bike before you turn, which causes the front wheel to turn and initiate the countersteer.

(Edit) Sorry; meant to clarify. The most likely reason it's difficult to initiate a countersteer by rocking a motorcycle is because the wheels are rotating more quickly and are heavier. I won't get into the exact definition here, but the moment of inertia (the property that causes a wheel to not deflect its axis of rotation) of the wheel is proportional to the rotational velocity and what I'm probably improperly simplifying as some form of the square of its mass.

See http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~fajans/Teaching/Steering.htm for a good explanation.

When I turn on a non banked corner I
1) Move weight slightly forwardon the bike
2) Lean the bike into the corner BUT try and keep my body vertical pushing the majority of the wieght straight down on the tyres
3)only use the handlebars to hold the bikes traction, if I am going fast and on a loose or open corner it will lean harder which in effect pushe my body out of centre a bit. This makes the tyres break traction and forces counter steer in the corner

IF I WANT TO DRIFT (and show off:p) I lean the bike as hard as I can BUT I also let my body stay in line iwth the bike. This means that the weight of my body is not straight down into the ground, it is sliding accross th eground. The tyre breaks traction more readily.

In a berm I will follow a very similar procedure BUT it lean my body so that my weight is tranferred perpendicularly into the ground.

Set up for the corner is the same in both cases, Brake before the turn NOT during.

The fastest way through a corner is preperation and allowing the bike to roll through the corner without the brakes. Keep traction and preperation for exit. The best way to do this is to know the corner, scope out the track before your race run or whatever. Look for the line that is less rutted, it is not always the line through the apex that will be quickest, byt the time of your race run, hundreds of riders may have blown out that line and it will be rutted to hell. I make sure I know atleast 2 lines for every corner, I try out these lines and work out what will give me a quicker run. I check the situation of rocks and the condition of the dirt. Then before my last two practice runs I decide which line I will take and stick with them no matter what, indecision and change will slow you down. It is amazing how much quicker you can be if you are confident!