Training & Nutrition - Workout question

Should i do back and shoulders all in one day? is this recommended?

Usually its recommended to do shoulders with either chest and/or arms as these are synergesic muscles and keeps the blood flow/pump in the same area .Back being a large muscle group is either paired alone or with bis or tris depending on the routine. What is the rest of your routine like?

my lift schedule is the following

Monday: Biceps
Tuesday: legs
wednesday: chest
thursday: bicepts
friday- back/shoulders
saturday- tricep
sunday-rest

i do 30 mins of intense stationary cycling, 100 crunches, stitups and 60 pushups and various other ab excerices on each day.

It looks like you are doing a one body part /day split where you can really bomb that muscle group and allow it a full week of recovery.It also looks like you are overfocusing on arms particularly biceps (though I know its a showey muscle)and it is more usual to break this into 5 not 6 sessions allowing an extra day of rest.Keep in mind bis and tris are small muscle groups and don't need real large volume to see results futher they get a lot of work from back and chest work.So I suggest you combine bis and tri into one session drop one day of bis and seperate back and shoulders into seperate days if you want to stay with the one body part /day routine.If you want to prioritize biceps here is what I suggest you do as I sometimes do this with chest. On days you train another bodypart occasionally add a biceps exercise in as a superset (this may work well with back for instance where your already using alot of bis).I wouldn't suggest doing this all the time only occasionally as a change of pace.Alternatively you could as well add a second day of biceps in with back(ie train once with tris and once with back)and still keep the 5way split.Or add the second day of bis in with shoulders since it is a smaller muscle group than back.

RWTD has a good point about grouping exercises.

In the past I've used a three way split routine- Leg; Back & Biceps; Chest Shoulders & Triceps with good results.

The advantages are you could reduce your frequency and maintain about the same volume. Recovery is better because you aren't hitting the same mucles to train another group. ie it's pretty hard to train chest without some tricep and shoulder involvement.

Is it usually a good idea to do opposite muscle groups in one workout, like Tri/Bi for example or Quad/Hamstring?

Originally posted by Spire
Is it usually a good idea to do opposite muscle groups in one workout, like Tri/Bi for example or Quad/Hamstring?

It makes for an interesting workout and technique. Nothing wrong with doing this at all. It will definately stimulate something :) This works well on 5 or 6 day splits during my bodybuilding cycle

Day 1 chest
day 2 Legs (front and back)
day 3 shoulders
day 4 rest
day 5 back
day 6 arms
day 7 rest

:)

Spire and Killer(for some of the latter comments)Im currently doing a opposing muscle group routine hitting muscle groups twice a week with good results.I group chest with back,shoulders with arms and then on third workout legs(hams with quads plus calves) .I do the opposing muscle group exercises in modified superset fashion (supersetting but with a normal rest not rushing between exercises)ie alternating between ham and quad exercises for instance and sometimes even trisetting alternating between say ham/quad/calf exercises but sometimes if I am concentrating on trying to push the weight up on a compound exercise such as squats I will drop the supersets on that one.Further I don't plan specific days for each workout I just keep the same order and if I need an extra rest day I take it so the routine is more likely to take 8 or 9 days to get through twice as 7.So as you can see with any workout routine it is important to mix it up and be flexable and you will see good results as I've seen results with five way once /week splits as well as 3way twice /week splits as well as standard vs. opposing muscle group schemes.Also once I start ramping up my cycling again the three way twice per week schedule will probably become more like once per week but we'll see about that then I guess.Personally and particularly for hardgainers I saw good results initially with the one bodypart per workout bombing/volume to build a muscle base as it took a lot of stimulation from all angles to be effective for me initially.Once I've gotten some kind of base and experience in how to do the exercises for maximum effectiveness I can hit the muscle with less volume and still see results .One last note if you try to hit the muscle groups twice per 7 days or so be sure to vary the intensity of the two workouts doing one heavy and one moderate and/or varying the exercises etc.

My favorite and best result bearing workout is to do a three on one off,

1 chest and back
2 Legs
3 Shoulders and arms
4 rest
5 Chest and arms
6 legs
7 Back and shoulders
8 rest
repeat...

I do light then heavy days and am always changing excersizes around. I pick one or two basic compound movements so I can watch progress but all supplimental excersizes get changed frequently.

I set absolute str goals as well as rep goals. ie currently on the bench press my absolute str goal is 335 for a paused at bottom rep, and my rep goal on light day is 215 for 20 reps, currently I am at about 320 for 1 and 205 for 20. Almost there!!!:D

Thats actually an interesting routine combining an opposing and standard scheme into one routine.I may try something like that when my current one starts getting stale which will be sooner rather than later if I don't start taking more days off lol.Out of curiosity do you do the first three workouts lighter pairing oppossing groups in supersets and the later three heavy or some other variation?

RWTD, the way I work it is as follows,

Chest and back are both light to moderate when done together.
First leg workout is my heavy day.
Shoulders are done heavy with moderate to light arms, I usually do only 6-8 total sets for bis and tris but hit them with effort to failure on each set.
Chest is done heavy when combined with arms.
Second leg day is light.
Back is done heavy when worked with shoulders.

Some of my favorite superset combinations are

Benchpress with Front chin ups, Try and do at least 100 total chins in four sets supersetted with the first four bench sets then finish bench alone.

Military press with barbell rowing.

Skull crushers with preacher dumbell curls.

Behind neck press with wide lat pulldowns behind neck.

Incline press with supinated close grip pullups.

I have found that for me these combinations keep me pumped and allow one group to rest adequately while the other works. Time between sets varies depending on weight used but typically no longer than a couple of minutes.

The main idea is to keep the body confused so adaptation is almost always necessary. I rarely get into ruts with this type program.

Sam Thanks for the info.That does sound like a lot of variation.I think my basic problem right now is I just went 6days without a day off and am forcing myself to rest today but may try to vary my routine more anyway.

Originally posted by RWTD
Sam Thanks for the info.That does sound like a lot of variation.I think my basic problem right now is I just went 6days without a day off and am forcing myself to rest today but may try to vary my routine more anyway.

:eek: 6 in a row with no break would be too much for me. I always need that rest day and sometimes take two depending on how hard I have worked.

I will usually do cardio on restdays but not too hard.

It usually is for me too but I was in a groove and kept going .I suspect I'll be taking more rest days this week to compensate and perhaps do more cycling.

6 in a row is actually easy. I assume they end up being very short and intense workouts. At least thats the way I worked a day to day routine. :)

They were fairly long and I varied the intensities within the workout depending on the exercises(ie compound more intense)but the overall intensity did drop off as the week went on to the point I took a break more because the last workout didn't seem as effective as it could have been rather than signs of overtraining.The key was adequate recovery as I was literally hibernating either resting or eating the entire time I was not lifting.This next week I'll probably do more rest days of cardio getting out more. P.S. I take that back as I now recall my last workout was very intense and effective therefore I cut it somewhat short and it definately has caused me to need a rest day.

i just wanted to get in on the conversation here and let everyone know how happy i am that i have finally resumed my training routine! i've gotten back into lifting 2 or more times a week and i feel SO good! my fitness studio contract ran out last May and i had moved so i wanted to find a new one... 4 MONTHS later i finally went again! then during the fall and holidays i just didn't get in regularly (about 2 times a month).

but since January i've been going 2-3 days per week and my appetite has already increased and i can FEEL the strength growing - and i'm making an effort to eat well. anyway, i had lost a fair amount of muscle - according to my roommate's home scale i had a min of 68kg in December which is 150lbs! but i don't think that can be right - that would mean i had lost 15 lbs of muscle in 2 years! anyway, on the same scale i'm now back up to 72kg (159lbs) - sometime i will find a good scale (i can't believe the gym doesn't have one - i'm gonna ask if they do) - info: i'm 6'1" and VERY hard-gainer

i'm currently doing a 2-day split
* chest/tri/stomach
* back/bi/stomach

with an optional 3rd day where i do either
* shoulders
* or legs
but i only do these when i have the time AND the legs doesn't conflict with any other activities (cycling, basketball, skitouring, snowboarding, etc)

ah, it feels so good to be back in the swing of lifting and to be regaining some of that hard-earned muscle i lost in the last 2 years (i was a max of 150lbs my whole life until 2 years of hard training i got to 170lbs with like 5% body fat)

maybe once i get my base back up i'll try some other mixes like you guys - but i think the 2-split is the best thing for me right now (and i'm sick of all my shirts, especially my cycling jerseys being too loose and baggy! i have one that i could no longer get over my shoulders 3 years ago that now is VERY baggy!) p.s. my cycling and cardio training i just just as much the last 2 years so i'm still fit, just not as strong

I wouldn't neglect shoulders too much because chest in particular benching works the front delt and so you may want to include some side and rear delt to avoid an imbalance there.However good luck with the weight training and the weight gain.I wouldn't worry too much about the scale when you get back to 170 and 5% you will know it lol.

Originally posted by RWTD
I wouldn't neglect shoulders too much because chest in particular benching works the front delt and so you may want to include some side and rear delt to avoid an imbalance there.However good luck with the weight training and the weight gain.I wouldn't worry too much about the scale when you get back to 170 and 5% you will know it lol.

Definitely do shoulder work if you want to avoid rotator cuff injury from benching.

Definitely do shoulder work if you want to avoid rotator cuff injury from benching.

ok, guys, i think that's a good point. i actually have a shoulder injury from year of volleyball (that right arm swing) and a snowboarding accident... so that i do not do flat-bench bar - i only do incline bench.

i guess i never thought about the shoulders have a good role here in injury prevention or considered the imbalance.

so what are some good shoulder exercises:
*obviously military shoulder press over the head
* i also in the past have done shrugs

other stuff i have tried, but i'm not sure what does what exactly:
* crossover - lifting with the arm almost straight in front of you
* bar pull-tos (has some classic weight-lifting name i know) but where you pull the bar up to your chin - i actually do these often on my chest/tri days after my tri lifts

any other good ideas? also my new gym doesn't have any dumbells heavy enough for my shrugs - does the bar work as well too?

Keep in mind the shoulder actually has three seperate muscle heads the front,side and rear delt.Each are targeted by different exercises to achieve balanced developement preventing injury.Bench press particularly the steeper the incline work the front delt(in addition to chest).Military and other front overhead presses work front delt as well.I would suggest realitivly light dumbell exercises for side delts(lateral raises)and rear delts(bent laterals) or you can also do reverse flys for rear delts.To work side and rear do slow reps of around 12/set going for the burn.Check www.exrx.net for videos of various exercises .If I recall correctly you click on the bodypart to get to the exercises for it.Sometimes to save time I will do a triset of the three shoulder exercises alternating one after another with not much rest between.Hope this helps.P.S. As I recall your a white muscle type I suggest you do front presses or better yet clean and presses for front delts explosively in sets around 6 reps as a power move to accompany the higher reps for the other two heads.

Originally posted by nathank
ok, guys, i think that's a good point. i actually have a shoulder injury from year of volleyball (that right arm swing) and a snowboarding accident... so that i do not do flat-bench bar - i only do incline bench.

i guess i never thought about the shoulders have a good role here in injury prevention or considered the imbalance.

so what are some good shoulder exercises:
*obviously military shoulder press over the head
* i also in the past have done shrugs

other stuff i have tried, but i'm not sure what does what exactly:
* crossover - lifting with the arm almost straight in front of you
* bar pull-tos (has some classic weight-lifting name i know) but where you pull the bar up to your chin - i actually do these often on my chest/tri days after my tri lifts

any other good ideas? also my new gym doesn't have any dumbells heavy enough for my shrugs - does the bar work as well too?

Nathank, Military press is good but be careful with them when bringing the bar down low. I do them full range of motion but have experienced pain in the lower part of the movement and do 3/4 press sometimes. I will bring the arms down until my upper arm just breaks parallel with the floor then pres it back up. Many people support this as being plenty of ROM.

I also like doing behind neck press with a ROM that brings the upper arm to just below parallel.

I think the exercise you are refering to is upright rows. They work the entire shoulder girdle but mainly front and mid. They also hit the traps. High pulls are upright rows with a slightly forward bend at the waist llike your doing rows. They will hit the traps, Rhomboids and rear delts very well.

Good lifting,
Sam

My shoulder just started twitching remembering all the pain those exercises cause them. Uprights rows, behind the necks presses (OUCH) and even miltary presses and bench presses. All evil and cause me a lot of pain. My should workout now sticks purely with dumbells as that allows full range of motion without restricting any natural twists my shoulders produce

Arnold press
Flyes / press (start with a fly and continue to bring your arms above your head allowing the dumbells to touch. Allow the dumbell to move natually so it should start out palms down and eventually end up palms touching)
Lateral raises and no pouring the damn pitcher :D
Rear Flyes to really keep a balance on shoulder girdle helping reduce injury. :)

I have others but am restricted right now due limited weight.

[edit]

Spelling mistake

As Sam said on front presses and behind neck presses in particular it is important to watch form carefully and start slow with low weight and not try to increase weight at the expense of form.If you have a preexisting shoulder injury make sure to use a pain free range of motion (try front raises if presses cause any pain)and like I said before balance front delt work with side and rear work just like you should balance ab with lower back,chest with back,bi with tri,quad with ham,inner quad with outer quad etc.Also if you have preexisting rotator cuff problems there are specific exercises to strengthen/rehab this area but I can't recall them specifically but maybe the site I linked covers this.P.S. I also agree with Maestrom particularly if you have any preexisting shoulder problems you may want to focus on dumbells for front delt and chest work as well avoiding the exercises he mentioned to avoid as like he said your range of motion isn't as restricted with dumbells.Also watch flys as well particularly on the full stretch lowered position with too heavy a weight.

Maelstroms post is very good advice. I am kinda stuck doing barbell work with my limited supply of dumbells. I have all but quit going to the gym and work out almost exclusively at home. No waiting on equipment.

The Arnold press in particular is an excellent movement for the shoulders. Kicking myserlf for not thinking about it.

Rotator cuff can be worked in many ways. I was going to try and explain but it was very difficult to put the movements into words. So here is a play by play

http://familydoctor.org/handouts/265.html

Number 2 and 3 I really enjoy doing standing with cables. I find it isolates better and keeps consistent tension on the area. For a long time I would work my rotator and then my shoulders. My rotator after 5 years is finally up to snuff (for the most part excluding nerve damage) and I don't need to do these very often. But they are handy to know. If You ever find your tendons hurting or the rotator cuff aching skip any regular shoulder workout and do these. Worked wonders for my recovery.

Originally posted by SamDaBikinMan
The Arnold press in particular is an excellent movement for the shoulders. Kicking myserlf for not thinking about it.

That exercise alone put on noticable muscle on my shoulders. It works the whole muscle area (all three heads to some degree) and works the rotator cuff. That movement is a godsend for me :)

Thank you for the link Maelstrom. Good info...

I've noticed that a lot of people here have a lot of upper body excerises for their workouts. In fact a couple seem to work exclusively the upper body. This seems a bit odd, especially for cyclists. I was just wondering if I could some reasoning for this. I work legs a bit more than 50% of the time.

Originally posted by Spire
I've noticed that a lot of people here have a lot of upper body excerises for their workouts. In fact a couple seem to work exclusively the upper body. This seems a bit odd, especially for cyclists. I was just wondering if I could some reasoning for this. I work legs a bit more than 50% of the time.

Spire, I do quite a bit of leg work also during the winter but taper it off to a maintenance program once I am riding regularly.

I just got back into weight lifting this past year. I laid off of it for almost 10 years. But you are correct, I do a lot of upper body that cyclists have little need for. When I was in the military I got into powerlifting, cycling was what I chose for cardio. I was addicted to it for about 7 years then got a job that just sucked all of my free time. I kept my cycling going as much as possible but there was several years of little to no cycling as well.

Times have changed. Now I am back into lifting seriously as well as riding. I just threw the weights back in though, been back on my bike since 1996.

Sam

Just as a sidenote Spire, it certainly is nice not to be arguing over political BS for a change:D

Originally posted by Spire
I've noticed that a lot of people here have a lot of upper body excerises for their workouts. In fact a couple seem to work exclusively the upper body. This seems a bit odd, especially for cyclists. I was just wondering if I could some reasoning for this. I work legs a bit more than 50% of the time.

I don't need to work legs. My legs are already big and strong. In fact when I cycle there is even less of a reason because I gain strenght quickly and easily on my legs. If anything most cyclists are poorly proportioned and unless you race and need to be minimally strong on top, most cyclists i know could use an upper body workout focus.

That and I can walk up the street to the gym look at a leg press and my legs gain strenght...Pure genetics down there for me :) However when I was power lifting my routine focused 60% on lower back / legs (You can't use your legs without lumbar strength) but even then my workouts were short and brutal

Start with supersetting leg extensions and leg cursl for warmup
LEg press 5 sets 5 reps to failure (I end up crawling from the machine)
Lunges to finish off my butt and hams

I do miss working my legs like that but I don't need 27" thighs. :)

Yea I found that even when I was squatting with 550+ pounds my legs are faster without all the extra mass. My squats now touch 400 occasionally but most of the time I am doing high reps with around 300-350 for endurance. A good 20 rep set of squats is equal to a sprint up a long hill in my opinion.

The leg mass slowed me down but I find the additional upper body str is helping my mountain biking in the steep hill department.

I think many feel they develop the leg muscles used for cycling best by cycling and feel they would benefit depending on the type of cycling they do from some degree of upper body strength or endurance.Personally my approach is most sports cycling included tends to overdevelop/overuse certain muscles/musclegroups relative to others leaving one susceptable to injury particularly in affected joints and tendons so I go for balanced development.For instance lunges and wide stance leg exercises are effective in developing leg muscles underdeveloped by cycling .Further I tend to have stronger pull muscles(back/hams/bis)relative to push muscles(chest/quads/tris) and need to somewhat prioritize the later in my training as well.

i think im going to change my leg workout. my legs are pretty big and sometime i have trouble fitting into designer jeans b/c my quads are bigger than most people that wear their stuff.

i think i will work on high reps and light weight other than low rep and heavy weight.

Yep..I wear homey clothes just so my thighs can fit in things

I'm tall but not too muscular except for in my legs, although i've been working lately to try and buff up other sections.

im a dummy, but what is considered high rep?

Originally posted by killerasp
im a dummy, but what is considered high rep?

12 to 15 for gym rats. Most people that aren't gym rats go as high as 25. In gym terms if someone says do a high rep workout 12 to 15 is usually standard though.

what would be a tyical high rep workout? how much weight should i increase with each set? how much reps should i do in each set?

Originally posted by killerasp
what would be a tyical high rep workout? how much weight should i increase with each set? how much reps should i do in each set?

Depends on your goal.

Set 1 - 15 no fail
set 2 - 12-15 no fail
set 3 - 12ish exhuastion
set 4 - 12ish fail

Depending on your own lifting ability that could mean anything. You could also pyramid it

set 1 - 15
set 2 - 12 to 15
set 3 - 12 (fail)
set 4 - 12 to 15
set 5 - 15

Theres a lot of variations for what you are asking. Play around. :)