Training & Nutrition - Questions bout Hyroxicut , Xenadrine like drugs

Has anyone ever taken diet drugs before? ive taken hydroxicut for about 3 months and stopped 6 months ago. but im thinking about starting up again.

some of the side affects i experienced include increased ache ( not sure if its b/c of it or my eating habits), cotton mouth, and hyper-activity.

What do you all think about these diet drugs? What effects have you had when you were taking them?

Hi,
I hate them. Burn fat by doing distance. Ease off on the speed, and start increasing time in the saddle. You''l also be working on base fitness.

They work by speeding up your metabolism but I also suggest you avoid them due to side effects you mentioned as well as others in more extreme cases.Stay with the weight training and supplement with aerobics of whatever intensity you prefer as well as a proper/balanced diet and you will see lasting results .

Stay away from them, they can cause irregular heart beats. I've lost a lot of weight doing weight lifting, lots of biking, and Weight Watchers. Has worked very well and don't feel hungry that often.

I used them for years. I also advocate their use if you understand that it is a sister drug to emphetamines. It speeds up your heart rate, increases body temp and decreases appetite. They work exceptionally well. Unless you are sure of your health and heart safety I wouldn't take them. Personally the only affect I get from them is WICKED fat loss and muscle retention. I would use them again if they weren't so hard to find.

Keep in mind. The hydroxycut you are looking at may not use ephedrine as its main ingrdient. (man I hate ergo keyboards) If it uses something called citris Auratium (sp) don't bother. Coffee has a more thermogenic effect than that rip off supplement.

As for usage. Cycling does work best. I preferred short cycles. 8 weeks on and 2 weeks off. As for the side effects. Those are common. The headaches were my worst but I found it was dehydration. You must drink MORE water than usual when using these supplements. You must also be sure not to overdrink water as well. Increase liquid by a glass or so.

For me I have a set point in my body weight that is really high. If I was interested in getting well below that point I know exercise and proper eating don't cut it for my body so I would be more than willing to use them again.

Yes Maelstrom gave a very complete and accurate summary .I too have used these in the past and found them to be effective and didn't have too many adverse side effects but what I actually used was a meal replcement protein drink that included a small amount of carbs as well epidrene and caffiene.I think taking it with the nutrition rather than empty stomach my have tempered the side effects.If you do try it make sure you stay with or below recommended doses and like Maestrom said cycle on and off as it can be addictive and very dangerous at high doses and like any drug over time you will build up a tolerance and require larger doses to be effective(thus the need to cycle).

I was interested in a fat burner but without the neural stimulants. I settled with a stack of Guggulsterones and Garcinia Cambogia. It seems to be working pretty well (am losing weight). Neither of these are stimulants, and as such, do not raise your heart rate or cause the jitters. The stuff stimulates thyroid function, increasing it's secretion, and thus increasing metabolism. I haven't had the slightest side effect yet...

Maelstrom: Do you know if Ephedrine based products or the stuff that I'm on are UCI legal? I did some research and didn't come up with anything that indicated that it wasn't, but I want to be cautious. I may be subjected to drug testing in a few months.

- Maurizio

it made me think twice before starting up again b/c a friend of mine stopped taking it b/c his doctor said that his liver was not fuctioning normally b/c his blood was more acidic than normal.

Originally posted by Maurizio
I was interested in a fat burner but without the neural stimulants. I settled with a stack of Guggulsterones and Garcinia Cambogia. It seems to be working pretty well (am losing weight). Neither of these are stimulants, and as such, do not raise your heart rate or cause the jitters. The stuff stimulates thyroid function, increasing it's secretion, and thus increasing metabolism. I haven't had the slightest side effect yet...

Maelstrom: Do you know if Ephedrine based products or the stuff that I'm on are UCI legal? I did some research and didn't come up with anything that indicated that it wasn't, but I want to be cautious. I may be subjected to drug testing in a few months.

- Maurizio

In canada they are illegal now. The states I believe still has full release on them. HJydroxycut for example is a Canadian born product. They have two different products. 1 for canada with Citrus Aurantium and 1 for the states with ephedra.

As for drug testing, it does show up. As Speed. Most nasal congestant drugs comes with some ephedra in them and several Canadian athletes have been removed due to findings of ephedra in their bodies when the doses were so low they were probably just sick. Most athletic bodies have banned speed so in turn have banned ephedra. :)

This was written by a buy on another forum that I visit frequently. What do you guys think?



ECA ~ The ephedra/caffeine/aspirin stack is the best legal weight loss product there is. The ephedra and caffeine raise your heart rate while retarding your appetite. If you follow the directions on the bottle you shouldn't have any problems with this stack (I've been taking it for about a year and haven't experienced any problems). However, this doesn't mean that this supplement is completely safe. The FDA/AMA doesn't recommend taking any ephedra/caffeine stack because of the fact that it does increase your heart rate and blood pressure.** So if you are interested in taking an ECA stack you should educate yourself and even consult a physician to see if you could be at risk of any cardiac problems if you take this supplement. EAS, Twinlab, and Cytodyne Technologies have thermogenic fat burners that use synephrine which is a milder form of ephedrine.

I use a product containing ma-huang (ephedra), with fair frequency, before my final ride of the day. I never take more than 50mg and urge anybody who uses it to read these (http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/00n1200/vol2_5/bkg1_index1.htm). People have died using this stuff; but they tend to take large quantities and/or have contributing medical conditions. Like any drug, do your research and play it safe.

I used Xenadrine RFA a few years ago to help me lose about 35 lbs. It really does work, but after the first bottle was done.. I took a month off of it, and bought another bottle.. and for some reason it gave me the jitters way way too much... hen i started hearing all sorts of scary stories of people taking Ephedra and it kinda freaked me out so I quit it all completely... I had started at about 195 lbs. and at my lowest got down to about 158 lbs... Then i got a g/f and eventually a wife, and my didn;t work out as much.. i gained back some of the weight up to the high 170's... I've been watching what I eat now and riding my biek more.. i'm down to about 169 lbs now.. my goal is to get to 165 lbs. by March 1st... we'll see.. it shouldn't be that hard.. only 4-5 more lbs. to go

Jeff

i just saw a commercial for Stacker II, they now say their stuff is ephedra free. does anyone know what they use now as a suppliment to this drug? im sure they replaced it with something b/c ephedra is the active drug in it.

Originally posted by killerasp
i just saw a commercial for Stacker II, they now say their stuff is ephedra free. does anyone know what they use now as a suppliment to this drug? im sure they replaced it with something b/c ephedra is the active drug in it.

More than likely citrus Aurantium...thats means its now crap :)...

http://www.vitamins-etc.com/product.asp?pid=1239

Yep..citrus Aurantium and Chromium. It is now an overpriced water pill imo. :)

I dun think ephedrine is banned ... however there is a dosage limit in how much one can consume

let's get one misconception straight, ephedra like products or speed does not increase metabolism!

if you put people on ephedra and do pre and post metabolic rates, they do not change! They purely function by slamming down the appetite . It is also a performance enhancer that allows (body builders) to push beyond muscle fatigue where they get most of the "muscle building" It's good for short, anarobic activity such as sprints, but has not been shown to really enhance long distance, aerobic activity. Ephedra increases the heart rate, blood pressure etc. by increasing "sympathetic tone", or activating the symphathetic nervous system. Deconditioned couch potatoes have higher resting heart rates and blood pressure but that does not make them have faster metabolisms. They have high sympathetic tone vs. Lance who has low sympathetic tone with a resting heart rate of 30.

I guess the death of the 23 yr old Baltimore Oriole pitcher who died from ephedra does not scare anybody.

There have been over 1400 reported adverse events and probably 78 deaths related to ephedra. To put this in perspective Phen-phen and redux diet pills were linked to eight deaths and was ripped off the prescription shelf. Baycol, a cholesterol medicine that killed 20 people was banned worldwide. (the latter was not even dangerous by itself, it only killed if combined with another cholesterol medicine called gemfibrozil). So why does this not send the message home? The only reason why ephedra is not an illegal amphetamine is due to the fact that legal loopholes were put in place. Like amphetamines, after 3 months of usage your body will requre more to have the same effect; a phenomenom called tolerance in physiology.

True, alot of the adverse events were in people who took ephedra with caffeine and probably took more than the recommended amount. However, the FDA is putting out a statement tht anything more than 25 mcg a day for 7 days may be too dangerous. The FDA does not have the control it does over prescription drugs so do not expect it to do much in terms of protecting the public.

In addition, these diet supplements have other contaminants that can affect the liver and kidneys. One of the metabolite impersonators contains lyapholised or dessicated bovine pituitary gland (this is essentially freeze dried cow brain matter) which illegally provides thyroid like compounds. lyapholised brain matter does not kill prions, the organisms that cause Kuru, Jakob-Creutzfeld disease and their Euopean counterpart Mad Cow disease which are central nervous system diseases that kill quickly by rendering people into demented, squirming, incontinant beings that die an undignified death.


So have at it. (Would you like a glass of chianti with that cow brain?)

Just do it the old fashioned way, eat less, ride more.

What you may have forgotten to control for is the caffeine and ephedra in these products apparently act synergesically to speed up the metabolism and enhance fatty acid mobilization.A quick search revealed many articles stating this but I don't have the time or inclination to read exhaustive research studies on this.As far as intensity note that it is at high intensity sprints etc. that the fatal effects are often occurring.

enhancing fatty acid mobilization does not neccessarily affect metabolism. And since I used to do alot of reasearch and am aware of the bias in scientific/ and especially medical literature, I'd like to see the articles myself and judge for myself. And you are right, it seems to be the combination of ephedra and caffeine that makes it more effective and therefore more lethal.

Here is a link to the xenadrine website refering to research its new product is more effective than two leading ephedra based thermogenics in boosting the metabolism.Other than that you probably have the sources to dig up the research on this better than I.I have just over the years read this from so many sources but I don't currently have the other references for this handy.http://www.xenadrine.com/products/EFX/clin_stud.asp Here is a link to a few more study summaries on this .I looked at 9,10 and 18 and they seem to indicate a metobolic effect. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=PubMed Looks like you will have to search under (ephedrene caffeine thermogenic )to get to the studies.(looks like on the search from this link the studies are now 13,14,22)

I will look into it. thanks. My concern is one of the studies used only 24 participants. It is hard to determined safety (but not efficacy) of the product using clinical trials with such small participants. (These were how the smoking industry used to show safety ) In general, clinical trials have been turned on their heads or had to retract safety data when the number of human particpants increased (and the usual number usually has to run into the 500s up to the 6000s) I will get back later.

Just do it the old fashioned way, eat less, ride more.

Amen!

I've just reviewed some of the articles.

The one in the NCBI link (national library of medicine) claimed that ephedra-caffeine product (specifically xenadrine) in healthy adults (prescreened with EKGs, ehcos etc.) was safe over a 14 day period. ( Just type in xenadrine. this was the artice in the Int. Jornal of obesity relat metab disord 2002 Oct;26(10):1363) Remember, phen-phen did not cause the heart valve problems until after 3 months of use so this does not say anything to me about safety for general use. This study cohort used only 27 well screened adults with no comment on their exercise and activity level.


The other article, under the ephedra caffeine thermogenic search term ,( one refering to the post prandial thermogeneis with ephedrine) studied the effect of metabolic rate (by indirect calorimetry) for only 160 minutes. Ephedra and caffeine does potentiate acute thermic effects after a meal, however, does this translate to long term response,? the study even admitted needing longer duration studies. As for the other references, I could not pull the specifics on the study methodology so I cannot comment.

I think I will need larger and long term studies before I telll people they can safely take these weight loss supplements . We know they work, it's a matter of what price.

And once again, with young athletes dying with related use of ephedra, can these safety trials be translated to the young, active athlete (granted these were baseball, football players and not bicyclists.)

I agree as to your recommendation not to use it and that was my recomendation aswell.However inspite of our best intensions some people are going to continue using it or make their own decision.They should be made fully aware of the risks involved but also any information that could help minimize the risks.Proper recommended use was discussed but what was not discussed was that the three high profile cases all reportedly involved high heat,high intensity training and large doses(the last in at least two of the three cases)so that is imo a way not to use it.Does this mean it is safe if not used in these circumstances I don't know and don't intend to test it to find out.I to am skeptical of the safety research by the way.And i'm sure everyone appreciates your taking the time to review all that.

I thought heat would be a consideration for cyclists in the use of ephedra supplements. Corey Stringer and Steve Bechler both died in the heat each having core body temperatures of 108 degrees F.

Heat is not something that cyclists avoid. In fact, a quick scan through your Performance catalog will yeild a number of different products that help wick heat and moisture.

If two professional athletes have died from this substance, why do recreational cyclists think that they can use this supplement without risk or harm? I am not trying to point a finger, but I think the risk of this stuff is not worth the effort. Just like cycling, there are no short cuts up the hills.

An interesting sidenote.I went to a weight training forum I belong to to search posts by Tom Incledon a supplement and exercise performance expert and researcher as well as competitive strongman who posts there occasionally to see what he had to say on this.Turns out the safety study on xenedrene was done by him lol.By the way I will say up front when he was doing mostly exercise related research and getting into supplement research he was always very evenhanded and unbiased about interpreting research on supplements.Now that he is doing research no doubt funded by the promoter I am not so sure.Anyway here are a few excerpts from when he anounced the study results to the group(9/30/02)along with his website since I am copying this I will give him the promotion:



Tonia:

I think the adverse events that have been reported were due to irresponsible
behaviors by those affected. While my research has shown ephedrine
containing products are safe for people with normal heart function, people
still have to be responsible enough to find out if they have "normal" heart
function. We cannot tell how clogged up arteries to the brain or heart are
just by looking at each other.

Assuming someone has no cardiovascular problems then the only other ways I
can think of cardiovascular events occurring is if there is an overdose or
an interaction (ie herb-drug or herb-herb or herb food, such as coffee).

Tom



Steve:

In some cases this is true. Toxicology reports indicated no ephedrine in
their blood yet the media said an empty bottle was found somewhere and
jumped on that angle. This overlooks the very fact that we toxicology
screens to explain the cause of death because the cause of death is not
always clear. Reports have been made that the FDAs Med Watch site lists over
1000 reports of adverse events linked to ephedrine containing products. More
than 50% of these reports had to do with some moron trying to chemically
convert ephedrine into methamphetamine. A supplement shouldn't be blamed for
the illegal use by recreational chemists. If that happens then all
supplements could be liable for removal from store shelves, which would be
ridiculous. They should just make the penalties for chemically converting
supplements into drugs much harsher.

Tom




Chris:

Ephedrine reduces food intake, increases activity, and increases metabolic
rate. Since they all take place, it's hard to say which effect is more
important in terms of weight loss, but I think that reducing appetite is
very important. The problem is what to do afterwards? Most people gain more
back then they loss.

Tom


Steve:

The commercial product tested contained 335 mg Ma Huang standardized for 20
mg ephedrine alkaloids, 910 mg guarana standardized for 200 mg caffeine and
85 mg bitter orange standardized for 5 mg synephrine per two capsules (one
serving).

If you stack ECA with yohimbine you have to avoid eating anything for some
time as insulin negates and possibly counters the effects of yohimbine. The
best strategy I have seen so far (from research) is to take an ECA with food
or after eating. You get a more pronounced thermogenic effect.

Tom

Thomas Incledon, MS, RD, LD/LN, NSCA-CPT, CSCS
Human Performance Specialists, Inc.
3810 NW 91st Terrace
Sunrise, FL 33351
954-577-0689
http://www.thomasincledon.com

Strongman and bodybuilding people (these are not atheletes) are notorious for ignoring adverse affects in order to make the gains they so ferverently desire. I'd trash anything they had to say unless I personally knew them to be on the up and up.

I guess you forgot to look at his credentials before your started stereotyping him.When he was competing amazingly enough he was doing it below 200 lbs so I doubt he was putting gains above all else . In addition to being very knowledgable he has high integrity and is very straightfoward if something doesn't work or is dangerous.I guess that is why drug and supplement companies consult with him on what ingredients to use in their products.If you note the above comments he was even evenhanded on this one in spite of being involved in research on it as he said if you relied on the supplement (to reduce your appetite)for weight loss the problem was you tend to gain more back when you get off of it.So it gets back to the important thing being lifestlyle change to get the diet and exercise right for lasting weight loss.

Toxicology reports indicated no ephedrine in
their blood yet the media said an empty bottle was found somewhere and
jumped on that angle.

Mr. Tom Inclendon does seem on the up and up and a decent fellow but he should not make comments about the toxicology.


I'll tell you why no ephedrine may not have been found in these bodies

1. The elimination half life of ephedrine (ephedra,etc. being botanical preparations) is 4.86-6.47 hours. Most of it is excreted in the urine unchanged, only small quantities slowly metabolized by the liver through oxidative deamination, demethylation etc. These liver metabolites include norephedrine and its conjugates which occur in natural human adrenalin deactivation.

Depending on the time of death, serum levels of ephedrine may be nill, most of it concentrated in the urine. Did he ignore the toxicologist's report on urine concentrations or was the toxicologist a moron. I would look at this statement with a skeptical eye. Those people could still have died from ephedra despite no ephedrine found in their serum during toxilogical analysis of their blood serum.

RWTD, sorry if you gathered I was condemning this particular person. If you know he is trustworhty then take his advice.

My post was regarding the typical BB or strongman know it all's I see every day in the club giving free advice to unknowing victims. I've had them approach me and I usually tell them they are flirting with disaster. Stay natural and stay healthy. Use chemicals and play russian roulette.

I personally use very few supplements(whey protein,creatine,V&M's,fish oil) and no drugs (including prescription)and given my metabolism and that I am generally trying more to gain muscle than cut fat anyway all this information was not really for my benefit .However I agree with you on the gym scene between the hardcore types and the time wasters I could not train effectively anywhere except my garage.

cbhungry I'm no expert on this but it would seem to me if it was in the urine but not the blood then it wouldn't be able to cause the death .

Not necessarily. !st of all, some of its metabolites are in the blood it is just mimicking our natural adrenalin synthesized by our own adrenal glands whose serum levels are variable.... in other words, we can't tell if the high serum levels are due to ephedrine or the natural stress response just before death. Assuming the deaths are due to cardiac deaths, it's true, if it's due to vasoconstriction or the coronary arteries shutting off blood supply and causinng a cardiac arrest, then the effect is due to immediate ingestion. This happens with cocaine.

However, most experts believe the cardiac arrests may be due to cardiac arrythmias (heart goes into a dangerous electrical rythem which essentially renders the heart ineffective at pumping blood). In other words, the heart's electrical conduction system misfires....this is how people die from electrocution. Proarrytmic drugs or drugs that cause cardiac arrythmias do not necessarily cause death with immediate ingestion (although it can) but renders the heart receptors "irritable", or electolyte imbalances etc. so when the conditions are just right, as in the case of the Oriole pitcher who died of heat stroke on a 70 degree day, the person has a cardiac arrest due to cardiac arrythmia. Just a side note, a high school football player here in georgia who died was found to have it in his serum.

This is why i have alot of respect for medical examiners., they are MDs, chemists,etc. The science of determining cause of death is so fraught with error, i really have a problem with coroners, many may be funeral home directors, who determine the cause of death without any medical training or degree. ( it's ok it it's due to blunt trauma or bullet wound but you get the gist).

Ok Thanks for the education on this issue though I question whether it was actually a 70 degree day as there were something like 15 record days of around 90 degrees in the Ft. Lauderdale area in the first 20 days of March and the rest weren't far behind lol.

Actually, he was bought to the hospital a little after 11:00 am. He ahd been doing the sprints earlier in the morining when it was only in the 70's.

New update that reports on actually finding it in the serum. He must have ingested it somewhat recently ie: < than 3 half lifes or < 18 hours.





http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20030314/lo_wplg/1531406

OK Call me a skeptic but here is what I think could be going on.I have absolutley no proof of this so it is just hypothetical but its the type of thing that goes on in big business all the time and you can be assured this type of thing happens with pharmaceutical research as well. The supplement industry funds safety research because they are concerned about liability issues and furthermore they financially intice a certain expert to participate in the research and promote the safety of the product .They are less concerned about the effectiveness of the product because they have seen the handwriting on the wall and have a new product"research"says is an incredible percent more effective without safety issues that they are now marketing in its place .I say all this because this certain researcher is to smart not to know enough research hasn't been done to unequivically call it safe and he has been just to concerned with proving the safety of the product and promoting the same. This is the same researcher that in the past had a falling out with a supplement company because he was not positive enough on a certain product but I guess the stakes are too high now.I guess big business and independent unbiased research just do not go together .

I hear you, and agree.

Any one who works in the healthcare field, as I also do, should know that methamphetamine manufacture and use is a pleague on communities all over the USA! It is destroying the people who use it, their families and children plus taking an enormous toll in the long term. Just where is the base material for the manufacture of this drug comming from? EPHEDRA etc. thats where!
The Canadians have done the right thing in out right baning this drug. That's what it is, it's no supplement!

Don't get me started on this one! I have a neice and her two small children living with us now because of this very problem. I had no idea how addictive this drug is untill my wife, RN did some rotations in a mental health center and we looked deeper into this drugs effect on the chemistry of the brain.

People this is a BAD thing that should be outlawed!!!!!:mad:

there is nothing healthful about these supplements. none of the ingredients are natural to our body chemistry and it is so FUBAR to believe in the powerful advertisements.
the good lord made us all in differing sizes and images and that is that. there are no shortcuts. simple physiology will tell us this.

think overall lifestyle, not fast hype.

Yes, I tried a over the counter drug a couple of years ago, with a friend. I then was between 115-120 pds and currently I'm 115pds. She was almost 180. She drop some weight, but I was unable to shake 10 of 120.. I took it for almost a week. The drug had me moving on my roller blades as if I had a battery up my a---.. I was flying!!! I'm already hyper naturally, so you could just imagaine me moving non-stop only to take a sip of water and kept blading. With my heart pounding in my chest, i knew this wasn't what I needed. Believe me, I will never forget that feeling.

I don't know your height or weight, but my weight is mainly muscle with little too no fat because I work out on a regular basic and I watch what I eat. If i didn't, i could easy be 145-150. No Joke. If you want to lose weight and tone your body, WORK OUT.

Bascially, if you have a nice routine going, (that suits you) you will see the difference in no time. Now that Spring is here, ride several times a week, outdoors even if it's for an hour or so. Try stepping, areobics, spinning, yoga, dancing or anything else that get your body moving. You have to work it off to see results and don't eat late in the eveing.

Honestly, if any all possible, do it naturally. You'll be a much happier and healthier person.

Good luck. :-) Italia



Originally posted by killerasp
Has anyone ever taken diet drugs before? ive taken hydroxicut for about 3 months and stopped 6 months ago. but im thinking about starting up again.

some of the side affects i experienced include increased ache ( not sure if its b/c of it or my eating habits), cotton mouth, and hyper-activity.

What do you all think about these diet drugs? What effects have you had when you were taking them?