Living Car Free - none of you are sustainable

The issue is not the Internet, it’s how the spread of scientific knowledge is impacted by politics and the public’s ability to understand the truth. A lot of people in the US don’t want you use oil because it makes the Arabs richer. Another group of people wants you to believe that oil is more precious than gold so they can charge like hell for it. All the discussion about “sustainability” is in a little way part of those political agendas.

Whereas if "peak oil" weren't an issue, the oil companies would revert to their good-natured habit of charging fair prices?

What political agendas does the notion of "sustainability" serve? I always understood it as supporting local farmers and merchants and conserving energy and minimizing waste and withholding your money from giant multinational corporations. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Of course BP/Shell/etc will try to promote a "green" image and capitalize on clean energy, and big corporations will try to make a buck on solar panels and hydrogen-powered cars and so on, but why is that a surprise? They want control and power and profit no matter what.


The point I would like to leave this discussion with is that there is a continuous, incomprehensible march of new technology and nothing is going to stop it. The concept of sustainability is media buzz generated by people with an agenda to sell.

Again, what is (in your opinion) this "agenda" being sold with the help of the media buzz about sustainability? And how would things be better without this media buzz?

folks like the Amish are sustainable... I'd like to learn more from folks like them :)

What the original poster was really pointing at is that to really make a huge difference, we have to do things that we don't like. We have to give up things which are essential to our better way of life.

That a life of sustainability is a much worse off life, a sacrifice which only the Amish and similar truly embrace.

What the original poster was really pointing at is that to really make a huge difference, we have to do things that we don't like. We have to give up things which are essential to our better way of life.

That a life of sustainability is a much worse off life, a sacrifice which only the Amish and similar truly embrace.
I completely disagree. While on the surface it appears that you are giving up important conveniences to live a simpler and more sustainable life, there are many compensations.

To keep it on topic, one example is riding instead driving. While some miss the convenience of their cars, most of us on this board report that our lives are actually richer and more fulfilling since we stopped driving.

I don't think we will ever convince people to give up a "better" way of life just to make a "huge difference." Self-sacrifice is never a popular choice, nor should it be. But we may be able to convince people that the adoption of simpler and more sustainable habits will, in fact, make them happier and healthier.

That a life of sustainability is a much worse off life, a sacrifice which only the Amish and similar truly embrace.

I think you'll find that the Amish don't consider their way of life to be worse-off or terribly sacrificial. they are enculturated to believe their way of life is the best and proper way. A barn-raising, physically straining work as it is, is a giant community effort met with celebration at the end.

I would argue that in many ways (but not all, I do after all type this message from a computer I dearly love) modern life is a lot worse off. my favorite one is this: at age sixteen you get a car and a job. the job (barely) pays for the car (unless you were lucky and your parents paid for the thing in full) and the car barely gets you to work. you work to have a car to drive to work. at lower incomes, this cycle is particularly vicious, and numerous other examples exist.

Americans--in the most technologically "advanced" country in the world--work longer hours than people in any other country, including third worl countries.

What real advantages do we get from our technology?

my favorite one is this: at age sixteen you get a car and a job. the job (barely) pays for the car (unless you were lucky and your parents paid for the thing in full) and the car barely gets you to work. you work to have a car to drive to work. at lower incomes, this cycle is particularly vicious, and numerous other examples exist.

+1
I was once asked the question: "If you could have a discussion with anyone from the past, who would it be and what would you discuss?" I answered, myself at age 15. I'd try to convince him (me) that he should take the money he saved up to buy a car and invest it in Microsoft, and stop spending so much time with those girls.

I doubt the 15 year old me would have listened to any of it.

Americans--in the most technologically "advanced" country in the world--work longer hours than people in any other country, including third worl countries.

What real advantages do we get from our technology?

+1x10^(insert big-a$$ number here)

A sociology class I took said that as america and europe advanced, every time productivity doubled there was a choice: less hours and the same pay or keep working the same hours and increase pay...you can guess what the boardrooms of american companies chose

Nobody knows exactly what our future "sustainable world" will be. It could be anywhere between a nuclear winter and a high-tech society powered by bicycles, local agriculture, wind mills and solar cells (OK, I know silicon technology is an energy glutton, I work in the field...). In the meantime, it is not exactly easy to try live a more sustainable life in today's developed societies. Some difficulties are practical (you said you would give up your care if you could...), but for those who could solve these practical problems, or who did not have to face them, social status can become the problem.

How can you explain why you use your bike every day, even when it is raining ? Why you won't buy 4 airplane tickets to Mauritius, but will drive your car to some campgroung instead (here the car is the more sustainable option of the two...) ? Why you will continue renting an apartment in town when all your collegues are buying a house in a far away suburb for the same price ? You can pretend that you like rain so much and that you hate both flying and gardening, but nobody will believe you and you will just look like an idiot. The fact is you are concerned about "sustainability" and the environment, but if you ever admit to it you will never be taken seriously again.

On the other hand, you will have days where you doubt - is all this reasonable ? It is not because you give up the week-ends in Berlin or London (low cost airlines...) when "everybody else" have them that it will save the earth. It just means that whenever such pleasures will be finally unaffordable, the other guys will have fine memories and you won't.

So, if this is what helps you stick to your choices, then a little bragging about being an "upper class" car-free person is definitely a lesser evil.

Turtle

I am car free, but my wife is not. The better of both worlds.

Americans--in the most technologically "advanced" country in the world--work longer hours than people in any other country, including third worl countries.

What real advantages do we get from our technology?

Well for one, we don't necessarily die when we catch pneumonia..getting a broken leg is inconvenient, not deadly..we can safely drink our water without worrying about all sorts of illnesses...inoculations, treatments, cures.....etc etc etc

And what is the source for that statement, anyway? Have you ever visited/worked in Japan? Try going there for a few months and working, and then come back and tell me about the 'longest hours in the world'

Americans--in the most technologically "advanced" country in the world--work longer hours than people in any other country, including third worl countries.

What real advantages do we get from our technology?

Plenty. However, I think relating technology to economics isn't simply done. Technology is simply tool making, which depends on tool use. Economics is about maximizing profit. Maximizing is done by setting up an economic system where people pay more and more for their lifestyle, while making less and less.

Well for one, we don't necessarily die when we catch pneumonia..getting a broken leg is inconvenient, not deadly..we can safely drink our water without worrying about all sorts of illnesses...inoculations, treatments, cures.....etc etc etc

People in other countries also benefit from health care technology, even though they work shorter hours. the biggest health risks today are the result of our technology, which drives us to a sedentary, stressful and competetive lifestyle with abundant crappy food and no time for healthful leisure activities.

BTW--in case you forgot: innoculations, antibiotics and epidemiology were developed by English scientists, pasteurization by a French scientist, and much of the cutting edge work in medical research is being done in Asia now.