Professional Cycling - spoiler police

Does anyone else think the spoilerpolice are a little over the top? Kinda seems to me if you don't want to know what happened in the TDF today, don't look at the TDF forum. I ran afoul of the spoiler police unintentionally. However, thinking about it, the whole concept really limits discussion. For example, how can you discuss a thread on how Team X's DS is doing if you can't mention Team X's results today? How can you answer a thread reagarding Rider B's chances if you can't discuss how much time he gained or lossed today? I can see not positng a thread Rider C wins, but it someone Orwellian that you can't use actual current results to form an argument regarding a rider's chances or a team's performance.

Isn't the rule not to post a spoiler in the THREAD TITLE though?

Because if it includes all and any content, well, duh, why even have a board for TdF then?

Discuss on I say.....

Like this tidbit from today....
I noticed that two of the riders in the break today were not wearing gloves....bare hands just looked funny to me....

Heat?

I could make some wisecrack about decaffeinated Koffee, but that would quickly get ugly, so I'll simply suggest that you be careful. Perhaps wait until the 8PM coverage begins: the general consensus seems to be that Al and Bobke are really irritating (an opinion that I reject, despite some of the no-kidding dumb things that Trautwig says), so if you wait until then, you'll probably be OK. Or not. :D

just looking at the currently active thread, past the stickies, 6 of the next 11 are arguably affected by todays stage (hope that isn't too much info). So no one can make a complete, honest, meaningful respose to over half of the most popular threads until 11 pm tonight. And then by 8:30 tommorow they have to ignore whatever effect tomorrow's stage has.

Does anyone else think the spoilerpolice are a little over the top? Kinda seems to me if you don't want to know what happened in the TDF today, don't look at the TDF forum. I ran afoul of the spoiler police unintentionally. However, thinking about it, the whole concept really limits discussion. For example, how can you discuss a thread on how Team X's DS is doing if you can't mention Team X's results today? How can you answer a thread reagarding Rider B's chances if you can't discuss how much time he gained or lossed today? I can see not positng a thread Rider C wins, but it someone Orwellian that you can't use actual current results to form an argument regarding a rider's chances or a team's performance.

The problem as I understand it is that on the main BikeForums page you can see the thread titles, so if you post a spoiler in the title it may be unintentionally visible.

The other bit is that Koffee has kindly already stickied a bunch of pre-made threads for each stage, with, I believe the idea that you discuss the stage (results and all) there rather than starting new threads.

Maybe I've misunderstood but I'm blissful in my ignorance :)

The other bit is that Koffee has kindly already stickied a bunch of pre-made threads for each stage, with, I believe the idea that you discuss the stage (results and all) there rather than starting new threads.

OOOOOOHHHHHH....(light bulb goes off above head) THAT'S our answer here. But it appears no one is doing it that way.

I take that back...now that I checked, there are plenty of responses in there.

I'm with you - the spoiler thing is a little over the top. We're to the point where it is a spoiler to mention a rider's name because it "spoils" the fact that he didn't crack his collarbone and post a DNF.

Agreed with the OP. Coming in here looking to gingerly wade through without a whisper of what happened on a given day is like going to the imdb message boards before you see a movie and hoping you don't read something that will inform you of the plot. You know what you're getting into.

I personally think it inhibits discussion. :/

Well, then GO TO THE THREAD CREATED FOR THAT DAY'S STAGE.

In the past, we've had people post spoilers, and folks were up at arms. So a few years ago, we started creating tour threads. That greatly reduced the tension created from years' past.

We continue to do this out of respect for the people who work or have other activities they cannot get out of before they can get to a television. We can't totally insulate them from hearing about the tour, but we do our best. It's worked for several years. This is how we prefer it. This is how Joe Gardner prefers it.

If you can't accept it, better to just not post at all. If you can't hold back for a day and refrain from posting about that day's stage outside the thread created for that day's stage, just refrain from posting at all. That will help keep the peace around here. And then no one has to worry about getting a warning from us about posting spoilers.

Koffee Brown

Forum Moderator

the p[roblem with that solution is that then ther eshould be no other threads than the day's stage threads, because any meaningful discussion runs the risk of being a spoiler. So if you were going to be consistent you'd pull all the threads other than the stickys and focus all the discussion there. Instead you end up with disjointed, partial dialogue, and threaten people that post an analysis that's responsive to a thread with banishment.

Explain to me how you can possibly have ameaningful discussion in a thread labeled "does a discovery have a plan," when the comment " yes they do, and it is to win stages and it worked today" gets you threatened with banishment?


And I didn't post any threads, with spoiler titles or not. I merely made the mistake of respoding to a thread with current information that was directly relevant to the topic of the thread. God forbid.

the p[roblem with that solution is that then ther eshould be no other threads than the day's stage threads, because any meaningful discussion runs the risk of being a spoiler. So if you were going to be consistent you'd pull all the threads other than the stickys and focus all the discussion there. Instead you end up with disjointed, partial dialogue, and threaten people that post an analysis that's responsive to a thread with banishment.

Explain to me how you can possibly have ameaningful discussion in a thread labeled "does a discovery have a plan," when the comment " yes they do, and it is to win stages and it worked today" gets you threatened with banishment?


And I didn't post any threads, with spoiler titles or not. I merely made the mistake of respoding to a thread with current information that was directly relevant to the topic of the thread. God forbid.

Don't bother. She basically has chosen the most Swiss-neutral way out of this mass of complainers from both sides. I was going to post a rebuttal to her comments myself, but ultimately decided that in this case Koffee's right.

If there's a big to-do about posting anything TdF-related the day of the stage, the fact is you can just post what you were going to in the stage-specific thread, no matter how disjointed it is from the main line of discussion in that thread, and then link to it in the thread you're currently in, where you think it might be otherwise taboo, like this: spoiler (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=2773713&postcount=150.) <---click to read.

If you don't know how to make it look like/do this, drop me a PM.

If anyone is interested in reading what you have to say, they'll click the link and respond to it in the stage thread. If not, you get ignored and it's no big.

What this forum really needs is mouse-over spoiler tags (as in message, etc..), where it blacks over your comment unless someone mouses over it or highlights it if they want to read it.

I could understand this if there wasnt a ENTIRE TDF SECTION !?!
I mean, who is gonna cilck this section trying NOT to find out what happend, almost every thread will be about tour ... o wait, ITS THE TDF SECTION ... irony

someone photoshop this pic to say spolier police pls :rolleyes:

If it's going to be this much of a problem, maybe we should discuss dropping the entire Tour de France forum instead.

This is how Joe wants it. This was the result of some bad experiences we've had in the past. I understand if not everyone agrees with how we've handled it, but this is how it's been done for the past few years with much success. BUT if this is too much of a problem, then I'll sit down with the admins over the next year, and we can scrap out the entire forum if some people are just so adverse to the idea of not creating spoiler threads that this much time has to be devoted to excessive verbage explaining the same concept over and over. It certainly isn't worth all this angst.

Thanks for the input.

Koffee Brown

Forum Moderator

Well, then GO TO THE THREAD CREATED FOR THAT DAY'S STAGE.

In the past, we've had people post spoilers, and folks were up at arms. So a few years ago, we started creating tour threads. That greatly reduced the tension created from years' past.

We continue to do this out of respect for the people who work or have other activities they cannot get out of before they can get to a television. We can't totally insulate them from hearing about the tour, but we do our best. It's worked for several years. This is how we prefer it. This is how Joe Gardner prefers it.

If you can't accept it, better to just not post at all. If you can't hold back for a day and refrain from posting about that day's stage outside the thread created for that day's stage, just refrain from posting at all. That will help keep the peace around here. And then no one has to worry about getting a warning from us about posting spoilers.

Koffee Brown

Forum Moderator
Seems logical to me. It's rather simple too. Maybe that's the problem for some people, a too simple and logical compromise.

I understand the system and why its in place (I havent made any spolier threads or comments) but it just seems logical not to enter the TDF section of the forums if your trying to wait for a re-run. what do you expect to find ?

this post explains the other side of it


If there's a big to-do about posting anything TdF-related the day of the stage, the fact is you can just post what you were going to in the stage-specific thread, no matter how disjointed it is from the main line of discussion in that thread


id rather not jump into the thread just saying whatever I want, makes me feel like I didnt even read it and im just posting random things that people probably dont wanna read through.

I know Koffee Brown is just doing her job as a mod, and im just giving my .02$ :)
I really love Bikeforums !! :) :D

If you don't want to know the results before you get them from the holy trinity of Al and Bob on OLN during "Enhanced Coverage," then stay the heck out of the TdF forum!

No brainer.

Oh yeah, don't log on to espn.com, cnnsi.com, or the internet for that matter. They usually have a link to that day's stage results that could be construed as spoilers. Shame on those web sites for providing the world with information.

Koffee, thanks for trying to stay neutral on this one. July always seems tense around here...

You guys act like your arm is getting cut off or something because you can't wait a little bit to post spoilers outside of a "designated" thread.

The issue is that the policy is not to post spoilers in thread titles (or post spoiler posts in threads that don't have spoiler titles). That's the policy, and many people come in here expecting that policy to be enforced. If it's not enforced, they get pissed off (I'm not one of these people but I know some who are just like Seinfeld in that regard). So don't go getting pissy about "censorship" or such.

If you don't like the policy you should mention it to the mods and to Joe and get the policy changed, so that people will no longer expect that policy to be in place, and can avoid viewing BikeForums completely if they are that worried about it.

CyLowe, as mentioned, part of the issue is that you can still see spoiler titles if you go up one level (http://www.bikeforums.net/forumdisplay.php?f=152) from the TdF forum, this is why I believe the policy is not to post spoilers in thread titles. And it says right on that page under the TdF heading.

In "defense" of the people posting spoilers, I thought there was another sticky at one point that explained all of this policy stuff but I can't see it. Maybe these folks just didn't know the policy and unintentionally did whatever they did. It might be a good idea to have that up top to explain the deal. I think people get more pissed off when they get busted for some rule they didn't know about.

.

If you don't like the policy you should mention it to the mods and to Joe and get the policy changed, so that people will no longer expect that policy to be in place, and can avoid viewing BikeForums completely if they are that worried about it.



I thought that was what I was doing by starting the thread.

No, it WASN'T what you were doing. I was well aware of your dissent, and we traded PM's. You just didn't like what I had to say, so you decided to piss off everyone else by stirring up a hornet nest and getting people all riled up so you can get moderators to relax their policies about posting spoilers.

Guess what? I'm not relaxed.

We can continue to do it this way, or if people are so upset that they can't respect a simple request, we can just stop doing the Tour de France each year. The fact is, we've been doing this for YEARS this way. And the satisfaction level for how the Tour de France forum is handled continues to be higher when we do it this way than when we did it before. So riling up a few members who have little respect for our successful handling of the Tour talk isn't going to change anything, unless we decide to just delete out the entire forum. That is unlikely to happen, since overall, the vast majority of the people who post about the tour are respectful of what we try to do and don't try to create chaos just because they want to spoil it for everyone else.

Despite what you think, spoilers can be contained within the threads created. How do we know this? Because we've done this for YEARS with no problems. NO PROBBLEMS. So if you get caught putting spoilers outside the threads contained for that stage on the same day, don't get surprised when I send over that PM to you telling you to STOP.

The policy WON'T change. This is how it works, and it is successful.

I'll repeat. Spoilers are contained in the threads created for that day's stage. If you can't contain yourself, then don't post that day. Wait until tomorrow.

Koffee Brown

Forum Moderator

I'll take the Swiss route on this too. I agree with Koffee. Back in the "old days" there was a lot of tension in July and something needed to be done. What they came up with was about as good of a compromise as there was. You can still discuss the current day's stage, just in that pre-made thread. Pretty simple.

But I also agree with everyone who has said why would you come here if you're worried about spoilers, or at least don't look at the latest thread on the main page. I think those folks had foolish complaints in the first place.

But, this has worked well and, as expected, the forums are always evolving.

I thought that was what I was doing by starting the thread.
You've got to be kidding. The title and first sentence do not strike me as starting a conversation with the mods; rather just a gripe/***** session meant to inflame. The place for forum suggestions is in the . . . wait for it . . . Forum Suggestions & User Assistance (http://www.bikeforums.net/forumdisplay.php?f=160) area. If you were really interested in doing something about changing policy it seems like that would be the place to start.



The policy WON'T change. This is how it works, and it is successful.

I'll repeat. Spoilers are contained in the threads created for that day's stage. If you can't contain yourself, then don't post that day. Wait until tomorrow.
Glad to hear it; seems perfectly reasonable to me!

^^^ x2

The policy is very clear if you've been in the forum last year, or did minimal reading of the stickies this year.

Though I don't get totally tweaked out by a spoiler, I do watch the tour on TIVO every night and like to stop by the forum during the day to read/discuss strategy from the prior day. Without this policy I would need to stay away from this forum for the entire TdF.

No, it WASN'T what you were doing. I was well aware of your dissent, and we traded PM's. You just didn't like what I had to say, so you decided to piss off everyone else by stirring up a hornet nest and getting people all riled up so you can get moderators to relax their policies about posting spoilers.

Guess what? I'm not relaxed.




So voicing dissent in a public forum in a public way is inappropriate. Your fourm, your rules. I'll respect that. However don't you think its a little over the top to complain about a dissenting voice?

No. I think it's inappropriate for you to rile up members purposely after we already talked about it via PM and you didn't like the responses. YOU took it public- it's not my fault that now I have to go there.

You have no respect for the forum or rules. If you did, you wouldn't have even tried to break them in the first place, then try to rally people behind breaking them in public. You're playing hypocrite, and you're winning. Congratulations.

Koffee Brown

Forum Moderator

You have no respect for the forum or rules. If you did, you wouldn't have even tried to break them in the first place, then try to rally people behind breaking them in public. You're playing hypocrite, and you're winning. Congratulations.

Koffee Brown

Forum Moderator

No, I unintentionally broke the rule, by posting in a thread (that I didn't start) about Discovery being a weak team, and said that Discovery had accomplished about what you could expect, a stage win, given today's stage win. I now understand that breaks the rule, I didn't think about it at the time. I haven't and won't make a spoiler post now that you have brought it to my attention.

Suggesting that a forum policy is not well considered and should be changed hardly shows a lack of respect for the forum. It actually shows respect and concern. If you don't care, you don't even bother. The whole concept of a forum is free discussion. If BF is so sensitive that BF policies can't be publically criticized, then you'll ultimately lose what your trying to create, free and open discussion.

One of the problems is that thread titles of the most recent thread can be seen from the main BF page. This was how I found out about Valverde's crash - someone posted a thread with the title giving it all away.

I'm not upset by spoilers. A coworker often comes to me during the day and says "do you want to know what happened in today's stage"? I always say yes, even though I know I'll be watching it later that night. But I'd like to have that choice, instead of an accidental discovery.

As I said when I replied to the Valverde thread (which was removed sometime after that) - it's what I get for even coming to BF before watching the stage. I wasn't too upset about it, but I know lots of other people are. How hard is it to keep the discussions in the threads designated for each days stage? How hard is it to keep spoilers out of the titles, where they can be visible even if you're not in the TdF forum?

C'mon kids... how hard is it - really?
I have no sympathy for cretins who can't follow simple protocol.

I've never known merlin to post anything inflammatory or incendiary, and I think his frustration is reasonable. When is it OK to add the performance from one stage on a thread that discusses a team's performance? 24 hours? 48? 72? Is that eastern daylight or GMT?

I really don't think it was merlin's intent to rile anyone up--it just looks to me like he's demonstrating one of the gray zones of the "no spoiler" policy.

But really, if spoiling news about Disco's performance is the biggest problem any of us has to deal with today, we've all done pretty well in life.

DrPete

What's the statute of limitations for not posting a 'spoiler' in a thread title? That is, When could someone post a thread focusing in on one rider or team's performance without it being a spoiler? Is it 24 hours from the stage end? Is it until OLN's coverage is done for the fourth time in a day? When?

Nobody wants to go through every thread called SPOILER to find what they are interested in reading, right?

One of the disadvantages of the single thread for that day's stage is that the conversation within the thread can cover a multitude of facets from the race. Weeding through 100+ posts to find the micro-topic one is looking for can be tedious.

Looking for the middle ground here... :)

How hard is it to keep the discussions in the threads designated for each days stage? How hard is it to keep spoilers out of the titles, where they can be visible even if you're not in the TdF forum?

Agreed on the title issue, but as for threads: Sometimes you just want to reply to a post about something that happened out there 'today', and relate things to the discussion at hand in a thread that isn't the stage-specific one. The current set-up doesn't allow for that unless you do what I posted on the first page.

It's not "hard" to keep current TdF discussion to ourselves (I'm not sure where people are coming up with this idea. The opposite - "how hard is it to just avoid the TdF forum until you've caught up with the race?" - is equally viable), but it does stiltify what can be said on any given day and where, and it represents control over others instead of 'buyer beware', the latter meaning simply that you shouldn't be surprised to see a bear if you're walking around in bear country. :/

And this is just discussion as far as I'm concerned, so I hope I don't get some e-thug trying to slice me up for saying that. I'm a little shocked at people going off half-cocked about this. It's not some life-or-death bloodwar. People need to learn to be nicer to one another.

I think Koffee has more than clearly explained the purpose behind the policy which, mind you, came from years of experience.
man, what a bunch of self centered ingrates we have in here.....

Well, then GO TO THE THREAD CREATED FOR THAT DAY'S STAGE.

In the past, we've had people post spoilers, and folks were up at arms. So a few years ago, we started creating tour threads. That greatly reduced the tension created from years' past.

We continue to do this out of respect for the people who work or have other activities they cannot get out of before they can get to a television. We can't totally insulate them from hearing about the tour, but we do our best. It's worked for several years. This is how we prefer it.


I like the current system. On weekdays, I don't get to see the coverage until I get home in the evenings, but I still like to check in on the discussion for the previous day's stage. If spoilers were rampant in the forum, I probably would never look at the forum in July.

man, what a bunch of self centered ingrates we have in here.....

You mean the people who don't want anything discussed until they have a chance to watch a day's stage at their leisure? You're right -- pretty self-centered. ;)

I think the question about when "new" information can be added to an ongoing thread, as was the case with the Disco thread in question, is a valid one. I think merlin was just trying to be considerate while being able to continue a discussion that by its very definition is an ongiong one.

DrPete

What's the statute of limitations for not posting a 'spoiler' in a thread title? That is, When could someone post a thread focusing in on one rider or team's performance without it being a spoiler? Is it 24 hours from the stage end? Is it until OLN's coverage is done for the fourth time in a day? When?

Nobody wants to go through every thread called SPOILER to find what they are interested in reading, right?

One of the disadvantages of the single thread for that day's stage is that the conversation within the thread can cover a multitude of facets from the race. Weeding through 100+ posts to find the micro-topic one is looking for can be tedious.

Looking for the middle ground here... :)

The same day- if Stage 14 is on television tomorrow, then refrain from using spoilers and use the stage thread created for it that day. Then you're free to say whatever you want the next day about that stage if you choose to meander outside that stage thread.

Koffee

No, I unintentionally broke the rule, by posting in a thread (that I didn't start) about Discovery being a weak team, and said that Discovery had accomplished about what you could expect, a stage win, given today's stage win. I now understand that breaks the rule, I didn't think about it at the time. I haven't and won't make a spoiler post now that you have brought it to my attention.

Suggesting that a forum policy is not well considered and should be changed hardly shows a lack of respect for the forum. It actually shows respect and concern. If you don't care, you don't even bother. The whole concept of a forum is free discussion. If BF is so sensitive that BF policies can't be publically criticized, then you'll ultimately lose what your trying to create, free and open discussion.

And I acknowledge that you unintentionally broke the rule. I also believe that you not only posted about Discovery, you posted who won the stage (though I'm not 100% on that one).

You show a serious lack of respect for the forum, not me. Do you really think this is the first time that we've heard the same excuses, the same "oh but's", the same "I didn't mean..."? We've heard all this already. That's how this forum came about, and that's how the policy came about. If you didn't care about what I had to say privately via pm, then you'll ultimately lose the respect of the moderators, as well as the the other members who respect and understand the policies and are satisfied with the means we've set up this forum so that people who work and can't necessarily get home still get the opportunity to see the Tour without having the ending blurted out. You want to have a free discussion- here it is. But don't expect me to not interject about what we've done, how it's going to continue, and how you've continued to establish a lack of concern or tact in the process of arguing a defense that is incorrect. Criticize all you want, but don't get on bikeforums and get all sanctimonious and up on your high horse and claim you're starting a discussion for the greater good when in fact, you are starting this up because you were pissed off that you got caught. That is what makes me believe that you're not doing this to provoke thoughtful reflection on a policy you think is unjust- you are doing it because you're mad you got caught. There's nothing here to indicate otherwise, all the way down to the title of the thread that you used to deliberately upset others. There's no respect here- you're right. It's in your title. It's in the manner you ranted in your first post. And it's certainly in your lack of respect for the rules we set forth in this forum out of respect for the other people here who wanted this setup.

Discuss it until the cows come home- we've already gone round and round this, and the forum and its policies is the result of past discussions. Or rather, it's the result of past discussions that were tastefully inciteful, well thought out, and had respect for the other people who frequent the forum.

Koffee

Mod

And I acknowledge that you unintentionally broke the rule. I also believe that you not only posted about Discovery, you posted who won the stage (though I'm not 100% on that one).

You show a serious lack of respect for the forum, not me.
Mod

I posted that Popovych won Stage 12 in the Stage 12 thread (see Post No 12). My mistake was making reference to that fact in a thread discussing Discovery's strength and strategy.

I guess my title for the thread could have been less sarcastic. However, show me where any of my posts in this thread are anything but an attempt to make a reasoned argument. I start this out by suggesting that the spoiler police (perhaps unfortunate phrasing) are a "little over the top". To me, those aren't exactly fighting words. Obviously you, and others disagree with my point of view, and you're free to conclude that my arguments are wrong. However disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you are disrespecting them.

And you're free to disagree- but the manner in which you make your approach is what I have the problem with.

In any means, I think I've made my point here. Peace.

Koffee

and i'll quit beating the dead horse

No matter what happens someone will be angry. Universal approval is unobtainable.