Julich critical of [possible] "disrespect for the jersey" tactics *spoiler*

[timcupery]

Bobby Julich has been keeping a race diary for ESPN.com, and his comments today (http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2006/news/story?id=2520455) were critical of Phonak for giving up the MJ. Here is his first main paragraph:
The yellow jersey is all about honor and taking responsibility of that honor. If you have enough responsibility and desire to take yellow, you have to have the same to defend it. So, when Landis and Phonak didn't do much to close an almost 30-minute gap from the breakaway group, other teams had to interpret that as a lack of respect for the jersey.

This is the kind of Tour-morals that I was critical of in my initial post on another (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=210681) thread. Bobby certainly knows the culture of the peloton far, far better than I, but I still find it hard to believe that Phonak has gotten on the bad side of all of the other teams because they "disrespected the Yellow Jersey."

[Cranks]

I wonder if Julich found it disrespectful when his teammate Zabriskie fell in the maille jaune.

I should really go read the whole thing before I criticize, but shut up and ride. Oh, sorry Bobby, you not so fast. Happy recovery!

[EURO]

Yeah, Phonak should have gone all out to 'respect' the jersey, and lose it long term in the process...

[timcupery]

Part of the issue here sounds like European traditionalism of the honor of the M.J., whereas Americans approach the sport with a more utilitarian, "what do I need to do (hopefully legally) to be in first by the end of the race?" If the latter conflicts with the former, I'll take the latter.

A good tactical analysis of the race was posted here:
http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=9784

[platypus]

this is hardly the first time in history that the MJ has been allowed to change hands, with the full knowledge that it will come back in the mountains.

I say it's a smart move on the part of Phonak, rest your legs for the alps.

[Guest]

I never liked Julich. He's an *******. Maybe if he rode better he'd understand tactics.

Koffee

[timcupery]

I never liked Julich. He's an *******. Maybe if he rode better he'd understand tactics.
Hmm. It was weird for me because reading his columns for ESPN, I've liked them thus far (and it's my first real exposure to him as a person, too). And then this column comes out of the blue.
Interestingly, seems that Jens, in his post-stage-victory interview, understands Phonak's tactics perfectly and was fine with them. This, Julich's teammate.

[Guest]

It wasn't weird for me. I haven't liked him for a few years now. Washed up has been. He knows it. He's just jealous because he didn't have a prayer to begin with. Well, when he's worn a yellow jersey, maybe he can talk about what's smart and what isn't smart. Until then, he ought to focus on finishing more Tour de Frances first.

Jens understands tactics because he actually WINS. Jens probably wins in part because he spends less time diatribing about what is and isn't right and more time training to be a better and faster cyclist.

Koffee

[CarlJStoneham]

Let's see, Julich has worn the MJ how many days out of his career? Hmmm. Oh right. Zero. Pretty easy to comment from the "sidelines". Sound to me like what he's saying is "respect the yellow jersey, but don't do everything you possibly can to wear it in Paris." Yeah, OK Bobby. Respect the MJ so much that you lose it for good. Cry baby.

[erader]

Hmm. It was weird for me because reading his columns for ESPN, I've liked them thus far (and it's my first real exposure to him as a person, too). And then this column comes out of the blue.
Interestingly, seems that Jens, in his post-stage-victory interview, understands Phonak's tactics perfectly and was fine with them. This, Julich's teammate.

bobby julich = sour grapes. when he secured his podium spot he laid down. third was victory for bobby j.

ed rader

[domestique]

It wasn't weird for me. I haven't liked him for a few years now. Washed up has been. He knows it. He's just jealous because he didn't have a prayer to begin with. Well, when he's worn a yellow jersey, maybe he can talk about what's smart and what isn't smart. Until then, he ought to focus on finishing more Tour de Frances first.

Jens understands tactics because he actually WINS. Jens probably wins in part because he spends less time diatribing about what is and isn't right and more time training to be a better and faster cyclist.

Koffee


Do yo realize he finished the TDF in third place in 1998.

I found the aritcle a little surprising... but I still like Julich... I think he may be a little upset how he blew his chances this year (and his whole career).

As for Phonak. If anyone is to be blames about the MJ blame Phonak's DS. I saw an interview where he said their goal in the AM was to let a break go and maybe take the jeresy. I don't think they wanted the jersey sooo soon in the race and were caught off guard. I really hope FLoyd can pull off the win, but the deciding factor will be his team. His team dosen't look too stong this year, especially after loosing some guys to the doping scandal.

[roadwarrior]

Oh, sorry Bobby, you not so fast. Happy recovery!

again....

[roadwarrior]

Do you realize he finished the TDF in third place in 1998?

Yes...in a year when a whole team was eliminated...not to take anything away from that, but it's like when Buddy Lazier won the Indianapolis 500..the year all the CART teams did not run Indy and went to Michigan...

[Guest]

Amen Roadwarrior. If you take out some of the major players, well... no wonder.

And third ain't first. As Der kaiser. ;)

Koffee

[DrPete]

Did anyone ever accuse LA of disrespecting the Maillot Jaune when he didn't attack till TTs or mountains?

Granted, I don't know that it was Phonak's intent to let the breakaway out that far, but the whole "respect the Maillot Jaune" thing is kind of ridiculous. As many have said, no point killing your team to keep the jersey from someone who's not a real contender.

DrPete

[godspiral]

Granted, I don't know that it was Phonak's intent to let the breakaway out that far, but the whole "respect the Maillot Jaune" thing is kind of ridiculous.
DrPete

I think the entire peloton finished outside the elimination time. I'm pretty sure Phonak was able to choose within their riding ability, any finishing gap from 25' to 30', and its lame and pathethic that they chose 29'

[timcupery]

I think the entire peloton finished outside the elimination time. I'm pretty sure Phonak was able to choose within their riding ability, any finishing gap from 25' to 30', and its lame and pathethic that they chose 29'
Please. If you're going to add to the discussion, at least give reasons for what you're saying, and perhaps say why 29' is pathetic. Would 28:15 and a teddy bear (or maybe a stuffed lion) be not pathetic?
Phonak could have chosen within their riding ability to have the gap at 0 minutes if they wanted to from the start.

[timcupery]

Today during Velonews' live race coverage (http://www.velonews.com/tick/html/stage70.html), they reported on Eddy Merckx's thoughts on Phonak's tactics. The Cannibal seems fine with it. Of course, he also likes Armstrong, but if Eddy is is okay with the tactics, then I can't really chalk Julich's critiques up to "European peloton traditionalism" and Bobby's comments make even less sense.

VeloNews's Neal Rogers spoke with five-time Tour winner Eddy Merckx this morning. Regarding Phonak's decision to hand off the jersey yesterday, Merckx said it was a good strategy, saving the team for when things really heat up in the Alps.

[timcupery]

To all of you who don't like Julich: what are some of the reasons? And I mean specific reasons, and specific examples. The reasons that have been given so far are either vague, or mostly crap. For example, "washed up and therefore jealous" - this may be true this season, but hasn't been true for the past few years, which was the time-scope to which you tried to apply that explanation. Last year Julich won the Paris-Nice, placed in the top-20 of the TdF while riding as a total domestique for Basso, and finished 3rd overall in ProTour points standings.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing that Julich is a jerk, or "sour grapes" but I simply don't know enough to conclude one way or another, and this thread certainly hasn't given me any reasons to think so, beyond the article that I linked in the first place.
I'm all ears.

[smellygary]

I never liked Julich. He's an *******. Maybe if he rode better he'd understand tactics.

Koffee
Or maybe if he understood tactics, he'd ride better.

[Braveheart]

I think the entire peloton finished outside the elimination time. I'm pretty sure Phonak was able to choose within their riding ability, any finishing gap from 25' to 30', and its lame and pathethic that they chose 29'


I agree - I'll admit I'm a novice at understanding this event - this is my third time watching the event start to finish - but the whole collusionary aspect of this race I think is difficult for Americans to understand, and it was why LA/Discovery/USPS was fun to watch. I think their contribution was to break some of these unfathomable TDF traditions and historic tactics. Haven't heard any reactions from the Texan himself but I would venture to guess that he would never have allowed that breakaway to get half an hour (especially with a potential threat in the group). If you are Phonak/FL then you either a.) think that the group isn't a threat and that you will regain the MJ by Paris, or b.) there's no way that our team has the strength to win by Paris. Either way, why would you want to give up the MJ so easily? If it's a.), what possible incremental benefit do you have in giving up the MJ so easily, or if it's b.), isn't it better to hold on to the MJ as long as possible? I know that team support is important but I don't think it's going to matter much once these guys hit the Alps anyways. If Phonak is weak, Floyd seems to be able to find the wheels of other riders without too much trouble.

[oldspark]

Maybe everyone needs to switch to decaf. (Koffee) LOL

[erader]

To all of you who don't like Julich: what are some of the reasons? And I mean specific reasons, and specific examples. The reasons that have been given so far are either vague, or mostly crap. For example, "washed up and therefore jealous" - this may be true this season, but hasn't been true for the past few years, which was the time-scope to which you tried to apply that explanation. Last year Julich won the Paris-Nice, placed in the top-20 of the TdF while riding as a total domestique for Basso, and finished 3rd overall in ProTour points standings.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing that Julich is a jerk, or "sour grapes" but I simply don't know enough to conclude one way or another, and this thread certainly hasn't given me any reasons to think so, beyond the article that I linked in the first place.
I'm all ears.


how long have you been watching pro racing? do you remember when bobby j placed in the vuelta and he about peed himself because he had finally taken his place "at the front of the pro peloton"?

bobby has that also-ran mentality which along with his boyish good looks might endear him to some but he's got too much sugar in that tank for me.

ed rader

[CyLowe97]

Aside from the 'respect' aspect, Phonak basically lost the MJ to one of their former Tour leaders in Periero. They may have done this for tactical help later in the Alps, as Oscar and Casse d'Eparnge (sp) are benefitting from the exposure.

Perhaps yellow in Paris doesn't mean as much as aiming for a few days of wearing the MJ in Provence to Julich?

Phonak are thinking long term.

[Guest]

Maybe everyone needs to switch to decaf. (Koffee) LOL


All bow to the caffeine.... long live the caffeine!

;) Just kidding. I just had some unfortunate encounter with the guy- made me not stand him. He's so friggin pompous, and I haven't seen any other personality but that since then, that's all.

Koffee

[Moochers_Dad]

I just had some unfortunate encounter with the guy- made me not stand him. He's so friggin pompous, and I haven't seen any other personality but that since then, that's all.

Koffee

Tell us more!

He sucks.

I remember after the 2006 Paris - Nice TT, he was so smug and pompous and said something like "I didn't even train all winter but I live my life as a professional cyclist, so that's why I won." Please.

Naturally, I was thinking if he didn't train all winter then he's a fool; and good luck recovering each day. Then he started to slip in the standings and dropped out of the race on the last day.

I should note that I didn't follow the race close enough; so I don't know if he had some other problem that would cause him to abandon. A problem other than just plain sucking.

[HDTVKSS]

It wasn't weird for me. I haven't liked him for a few years now. Washed up has been. He knows it.

Koffee

So, what does that make all the washed up never was's that occupy these forums? you know, those people that see fit to comment on a culture and situation they have never experienced themselves, but instead feel fit to comment on from an armchair, at best amature perspective?

[erader]

So, what does that make all the washed up never was's that occupy these forums? you know, those people that see fit to comment on a culture and situation they have never experienced themselves, but instead feel fit to comment on from an armchair, at best amature perspective?


didn't bobby julich's commentary come from an amrchair...:) ?

hell if can do it so can i :eek: .

ed rader

here's your boy BJ climbing the first hill at the amgen TT and coming right at me ...........

http://www.fototime.com/7A7318F55DCC24E/orig.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/E808BD041B800CF/orig.jpg

[Vinokurtov]

Koffee, sorry he didn't kiss your tail when you met him, but your comments are pretty ignorant. Few "washed up has beens" win Paris Nice and the Criterium International the year prior. And a bronze medal (should have been silver) in the '04 Olympics. He had a pretty OK '05 Tour too...4th on one of the hardest mountain stages (Courchevel - Briançon) and 4th in the final TT.

Fact is if he was "washed up" wouldn't have been on both the Giro (which he finished and his guy won) AND the Tour CSC team. He's been parcelling his efforts with two grand tours in mind, not riding for personal results. You might not realize it, but that's a huge effort. I wouldn't expect most non racers or casual fans to get that though. If people thought Hincapie was a GC contender, they'll think most anything. It's way beyond the casual fan to understand training cycles, peaks, and things that can go wrong.

As far as defending the jersey, he's had teammates in the yellow several times, so he might have some insight. And he's said flat out on several many that his days as a TDF GC contender are over.

He happens to live around the corner from me and trains here, he's got a very good rep around town. I've spoken with him at length, and found him very focused, not surprising given the demands of the profession. Pompous? Hardly.

[walkman]

I think Julich has a point -- even if he made it a little too strongly.

Remember how Thomas Volker worked so hard 2 years ago to keep the yellow jersey. What a valiant fight he put up? Giving up a 30 minute lead looks a little different from that perspective. If Landis dominates in the Alps and TT it will all be considered "worth it" or "brilliant" depending on your perspective.

No matter what it takes a little luster off the accomplishment if Landis wins -- especially if he does it without winning a stage. After all, Lance always felt like he needed to win at least one stage to make his win look "honorable".

I hope Landis rides great and pulls out the win in an exciting manner, but if he doesn't I expect that someday he'll regret that he didn't work harder to wear it a "little longer". Just like Julich would probably give anything to have worn it "even one day".



p.s. Very diplomatic of Eddie Merx, but does anyone think for a minute he would have done the same thing? He would have been trying to win the sprint!

[roadwarrior]

I think Julich has a point -- even if he made it a little too strongly.

Remember how Thomas Volker worked so hard 2 years ago to keep the yellow jersey. What a valiant fight he put up? Giving up a 30 minute lead looks a little different from that perspective. If Landis dominates in the Alps and TT it will all be considered "worth it" or "brilliant" depending on your perspective.

Voeckler knew he was not going to win in Paris against Lance. He used up so much juice on the road that, when it was all said and done he ended up not even winning the "Best Young Rider" jersey and ended up with a lot of memories. Applaud his efforts, but you have to keep your eye on the big picture.

Look, Lelangue knows and Landis knows how good their team is...I've done stage racing, not anything remotely like this, but 3-4 days long. You train to make deposts to your checking account, and while riding/racing you are only making withdrawals. The trick is to have enough in the account to get you to the end. As experienced in multiple disciplines as Landis is (remember, even Lance, Eddy, and Miguel had to win their first, and each time for each one, nobody believed they'd pull it off as there were more experienced, better stage racers than them in the race) he and the team knows what they have left in the bank.

Also, remember that "hindsight" is always 20-20...

[roadwarrior]

Koffee, sorry he didn't kiss your tail when you met him, but your comments are pretty ignorant. Few "washed up has beens" win Paris Nice and the Criterium International the year prior. And a bronze medal (should have been silver) in the '04 Olympics. He had a pretty OK '05 Tour too...4th on one of the hardest mountain stages (Courchevel - Briançon) and 4th in the final TT.

Yep...his career was totally in the dumper, he had no real results for a long time, then, presto, he goes with Riis and starts getting great results...

hmmmm.....I have always been surprised that the "Bike Forums Doping Control Experts" never jumped on that. I read it out here that everybody does it...and anytime a rider suddenly starts getting results after a long period of not doing so.....

;)

[timcupery]

Yep...his career was totally in the dumper, he had no real results for a long time, then, presto, he goes with Riis and starts getting great results...
hmmmm.....I have always been surprised that the "Bike Forums Doping Control Experts" never jumped on that. I read it out here that everybody does it...and anytime a rider suddenly starts getting results after a long period of not doing so.....
This is very easily explainable without doping. So while he may have switched to doping, there's no specific reason to believe that he did just because he got better. What changed from his two previous teams, compared to CSC, is that with the previous teams he was a super-domestique in that he was riding and racing all the time. Like, 80-100 days a year. No real recovery, and certainly no peaking. And peaking is necessary to win races. With CSC, his racing schedule was lighter, such that he could come up to peak his fitness for certain races. It's a very obvious explanation, and all of the data on this point is there for us to see. So, it doesn't say that he wasn't doping, but his upturn in 2004-05 is not, in and of itself, reason to think that he started doping.

[roadwarrior]

This is very easily explainable without doping. So while he may have switched to doping, there's no specific reason to believe that he did just because he got better. What changed from his two previous teams, compared to CSC, is that with the previous teams he was a super-domestique in that he was riding and racing all the time. Like, 80-100 days a year. No real recovery, and certainly no peaking. And peaking is necessary to win races. With CSC, his racing schedule was lighter, such that he could come up to peak his fitness for certain races. It's a very obvious explanation, and all of the data on this point is there for us to see. So, it doesn't say that he wasn't doping, but his upturn in 2004-05 is not, in and of itself, reason to think that he started doping.

But....but...everybody dopes...I read it out here!!!:eek: It must be true!!

(for the record, I agree with you...)

[meb]

With hindsight, Phonak’s decision is shown as brilliant. Hunter and Jalabert dropped off the back of the peloton. Sixth place back was 45 seconds outside the 9% finishing cutoff for a coefficient 1 stage. Had Floyd defended the jersey, it would have brought the peloton within the cutoff time-but not Hunter and Jalabert. As more than 20% of the field was being eliminated, the cutoff time was incremented to 10% to prevent eliminating more than 20% of the field. That extra 1% saved Jalabert and Hunter, so had Floyd brought the peloton forward to defend the jersey, Phonak would have lost 2 riders, and Floyd needs all the support he can muster in such a close Tour.

If anything, the other contending teams should be chided for missing an opportunity at competitively eliminating two of Floyd's domestiques.

[CyLowe97]

In his daily video diary out on VeloNews.com, Chris Horner called Phonak's move to lose the MJ a brilliant move.

Guess it depends on your view within the peloton...

[timcupery]

In his daily video diary out on VeloNews.com, Chris Horner called Phonak's move to lose the MJ a brilliant move.
Guess it depends on your view within the peloton...
And specifically, within the peloton.
Most people within pro cycling have commended the move. And remember that Horner rides for Davitamon-Lotto, which is supposed to be angry at Phonak for taking the bathroom break to help Friere and Popovych's break get clear, which would force D-L to chase if they wanted to get McEwen a sprint victory.

[substructure]

I may be in the wrong here, but:
How much actual effort would it have taken to wipe some of the time down and hold on to the yellow?
The team didn’t have to close the gap that much.

I think there was more going on in FL’s earbud than most of us realize, yes:
Strategies
Tactics
Etc.

But, considering what the Phonak team can do in the Peleton, I just wonder.

[CyLowe97]

I may be in the wrong here, but:
How much actual effort would it have taken to wipe some of the time down and hold on to the yellow?
The team didn’t have to close the gap that much.


Yeah, but watching the stage, it didn't appear any other teams were really helping at the front. Why should Phonak expend any more effort on a transition stage when they need to be fresh in the Alps.

If the other teams were concerned, they'd have been up front pushing the pace. Apparently they weren't THAT concerned. We still got a McEwen/Boonen showdown out of it, right? Who cares if that comes 15 minutes or 28 minutes after the stage winner? It's still racing for 4th and 5th place points.

[TRaffic Jammer]

That sort of kill-your-team-to-keep-MJ went out in the 80's. Races are way to close now to mess around with possibly harming your teams ability to attack in the mountains by busting them on the few flat stages in between. Third in 98....AND writing a column while racing?....you're just bitter BJ.

Don't forget Landis is riding way beyond injured. He needs his team.
As for Merx... he's a whole different beast together... he'll try to pee in the morning faster, eat breakfast faster, get to the start first, win the stage, and then off to dinner first. :lol:

[Keith99]

I agree - I'll admit I'm a novice at understanding this event - this is my third time watching the event start to finish - but the whole collusionary aspect of this race I think is difficult for Americans to understand, and it was why LA/Discovery/USPS was fun to watch. I think their contribution was to break some of these unfathomable TDF traditions and historic tactics. Haven't heard any reactions from the Texan himself but I would venture to guess that he would never have allowed that breakaway to get half an hour (especially with a potential threat in the group). If you are Phonak/FL then you either a.) think that the group isn't a threat and that you will regain the MJ by Paris, or b.) there's no way that our team has the strength to win by Paris. Either way, why would you want to give up the MJ so easily? If it's a.), what possible incremental benefit do you have in giving up the MJ so easily, or if it's b.), isn't it better to hold on to the MJ as long as possible? I know that team support is important but I don't think it's going to matter much once these guys hit the Alps anyways. If Phonak is weak, Floyd seems to be able to find the wheels of other riders without too much trouble.

Lance not only would let a group like this get away. He did. Biggest difference is that when Lance and Postal allowed it to happen that were at least 2 riders who had not lost huge chunks of time already, resulting with someone in Yellow with a 20 minute lead. Postal that year was far stronger in a support sense than Phonak is this year.

In both cases one thing is the same. There is virtually no threat to the final Yellow from members of either breakaway. In both cases The team defending yellow decided the effort was not worth it long term. Neither of these cases is unique, but the degree does seem to disrespect the jersey. It is what one would expect with the way sport in general has gone these past few years.

[USAZorro]

As for Merx... he's a whole different beast together... he'll try to pee in the morning faster, eat breakfast faster, get to the start first, win the stage, and then off to dinner first. :lol:


Not to mention, his son rides for Phonak. :D

[TRaffic Jammer]

^^^^ I bet he stills tries to race his son^^^^^^

[Keith99]

With hindsight, Phonak’s decision is shown as brilliant. Hunter and Jalabert dropped off the back of the peloton. Sixth place back was 45 seconds outside the 9% finishing cutoff for a coefficient 1 stage. Had Floyd defended the jersey, it would have brought the peloton within the cutoff time-but not Hunter and Jalabert. As more than 20% of the field was being eliminated, the cutoff time was incremented to 10% to prevent eliminating more than 20% of the field. That extra 1% saved Jalabert and Hunter, so had Floyd brought the peloton forward to defend the jersey, Phonak would have lost 2 riders, and Floyd needs all the support he can muster in such a close Tour.

If anything, the other contending teams should be chided for missing an opportunity at competitively eliminating two of Floyd's domestiques.

You belong on the mike!

Seriously this is a major point. Something like this would even justify giving a few more minutes, perhaps even giving enough to make the best placed rider in the break a serious threat to at least podium. I really had been thinking that the turning off of the chase at the end was a bit disrespectful, that the form should have been to go harder and drop out of yellow by a bit less. (Also making it look more like the other team had earned it rather than getting a gift). It did come off at the end like Phonak was not trying at all, rather than like 'were going to try, but not going to risk blowing up'.

[TRaffic Jammer]

I did not know that.....it's a brilliant move then. No debate required.

[CyLowe97]

I did not know that.....it's a brilliant move then. No debate required.
... Yeah, interesting stuff. I guess the genius of Bjarne Riis failed to tell Bobby J....

[TRaffic Jammer]

it's been a fun Tour, IMHO.

[rufvelo]

I wonder if Julich found it disrespectful when his teammate Zabriskie fell in the maille jaune. ...!


You've made THE point! It was shameful that CSC left the yellow jersey lying on the road that time. How did it look this year for Gontchar all pretty in yellow to be fetching water bottles for his team? Landis on the other hand looked very dignified, very much in control in yellow.

[substructure]

No doubt, the tour is beyond words.

[platypus]

the point about the cutoff time being extended is HUGE. I hadn't realized that was the situation, and it makes Phonak's control of the peloton 2 days ago even more brilliant than I had at first suspected.

Disrespect for the MJ? Hardly! Phonak was using the advantages of having the MJ to the fullest.