Advocacy & Safety - Bicycle Boxing?????

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/1957839/detail.html)

What is the matter with these idiots? At sixteen and seventeen years old, these kids were probably riding bikes as a method of transportation a year or two ago, now they get their kicks by blindsiding cyclists with a baseball bat?

A total waste of resources

:shake head in disbelief:


:mad: :irritated: :mad: :irritated: :mad: :irritated: :mad: :irritated:

Whoa, that's frightening. String em up. Seriously.

I wish they hadn't published that. The good thing about morons is sometimes they can't come up with their own ideas. Unfortunatelly many of them can read and get their ideas from articles like this. I guess at least I will now know to look for a license plate the next time something strikes me from behind.

That's further confirms my beliefs that our young are loosing touch with proper behavior and hold little value when it comes to harming others in the name of fun. What's saddens me even further is that those teens have parents, that need a baseball bat up side their heads. :mad:

When I was a teenage the worst I did was throw snowballs at autos...:eek: Until the police showed up :( and showed us what could be the result of our actions. We never did that again.

even a normal kid should not be doing that, I guess will live in a very abnormal times.....

A family friend was missing for three weeks, in a coma for three months and is an invalid for the rest of his life from this exact act here in LA.

Damn shame.

Originally posted by Garbear
What's saddens me even further is that those teens have parents, that need a baseball bat up side their heads. :mad:


Dammit Garbear - I almost never agreed with you. However, this makes it twice in one day!!! ;)

This is just absolutely SICK!!! I can't believe someone would do this. I know some friends when I was younger would do something similar to mail boxes as a prank etc.. I did not agree with that, but atleast that never really hurt anyone except a bit financialy.

Greg you probably remember a few years back when a cyclist was hit in Orange, and dragged down the freeway all the way down to newport beach I believe it was.. What do people have against cyclist? Are we just a easy target?

Originally posted by Kev
What do people have against cyclist? Are we just a easy target?

I think that's a big part of it, Kev.

GOOD LORD! I wonder what goes wrong with a person's mind that one would be entertained by assualting another human being like this. Don't get me wrong, I did plenty of stupid s--t when I was a teenager but I never attacked anyone. As a society we really need to examine what is going on with our whole value structure. Especially with our young people.

I am going to take a wild leap here. I'd say those types of kids are the same kids that beat on nerds, gays, music class students and anybody else that is different from their parental training.

Originally posted by Big Johnson
Don't get me wrong, I did plenty of stupid s--t when I was a teenager but I never attacked anyone. As a society we really need to examine what is going on with our whole value structure. Especially with our young people.

Agreed. I think the whole problem arises because of the gutlessness of many courts to penalise teenagers appropriately for these sort of crimes. We've had the same sort of problems out here with arsonists during the recent bushfires. We keep hearing "they're only teenagers, they don't know any better!"

As far as I'm concerned, they should know better. Personally, I think the whole "they're only teenagers" argument is an insult to the well-behaved teenagers who don't resort to this crap. I say, to hell with that. Charge them as you would charge adults for assault. You'd only have to send a couple of them to jail for the others to get the message.

Another thing I'd like to see (in an ideal world). What's wrong with some accurate media coverage that describes the blatant gutlessness of these attacks. I mean, hitting someone with a baseball bat doesn't exactly take balls. Teenagers seem to be pretty image conscious. If they were publicly branded "gutless", I think they'd soon find something else to do.

:mad:

Originally posted by Chris L

Another thing I'd like to see (in an ideal world). What's wrong with some accurate media coverage that describes the blatant gutlessness of these attacks. I mean, hitting someone with a baseball bat doesn't exactly take balls. Teenagers seem to be pretty image conscious. If they were publicly branded "gutless", I think they'd soon find something else to do.

:mad:

Maybe it's always been happening and has just come to media-light but I've been noticing more and more incidents like these. Last year around here, a teenage recovering from a football injury got beaten with his own crutches (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/100239_assault17.shtml) by some other teens. Around the same time, a man was beaten with a skateboard (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/66251_skate12.shtml) during a traffic argument. And of course there was the much publicised story about the teen pushing a pastor who was cycling (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134445672_pastorpush30m.html). That case resulted in some push for new bills to address automobile-cyclist confrontations (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/64619_bike30.shtml). A couple of years ago there was a gang of early to mid teens roving around Tacoma, WA assaulting people for no other reason than to alleviate boredom.

A few months ago, I was waiting at a red light in my car. And this teenager on crutches was crossing. All of a sudden two other teens ran up behind him and hit him on the back. At first I thought it was some stupid joke, but then they started to hitting him when he fell to the ground. I never felt like jumping out of my car so much and beating the **** out of someone in my life. Only thing that stopped me was it was across the street and cars were going past in front of the car.

We all do stupid things when we are teenagers.. break things.. drink.. smoke etc.. but we never started harming someone physicaly like this bicycle boxing..

Originally posted by Chris L
... We've had the same sort of problems out here with arsonists during the recent bushfires. We keep hearing "they're only teenagers, they don't know any better!"... Rats, I was hoping that kind of judicial stupidity had only infected my country.

Here's an idea. Make criminal defense lawyers liable for the repeat crimes that their clients commit. If a criminal repeats a crime, go after the crook with criminal charges and go after the his lawyer (that got him off the first time) for a hefty damage award. Since there's a personal injury lawyer on every street corner, it would be easy to discourage apologists, er um defense attorneys, from gleefully getting the same defendant off again and again. It would not take long for this process to bear fruit, as most criminal acts are committed by just a few repeat offenders, and most lawyers are only out for a buck, no matter how much spin the legal profession puts on itself.

A theme I've noticed from many postings around this forum, is the impersonal way that a few antisocial people treat the rest of the human race. Everbody's value as a person is diminished when criminal activity is basically condoned by the very organization charged with dispensing justice. IMO (of course) it is defense lawyers who have done the most to discourage civility between people, resulting in a more mean spirited society for everybody. It is tort lawyers who have done the most to discourage personal responsibility, resulting in a more unaccountable society.

How did it get this way? Certainly nobody ever set out to steer us in the direction we're headed now. Perhaps it is typical over time, for democracies that are obsessed with preserving individual rights, to gradually forget that responsibility and freedom are two sides of the same coin. If you deny or neglect either half you lose it all, that diminishing the responsibilities of an individual also diminishes the freedom of a society.

There's no need to make lawyers liable. After all, what if someone is wrongly accused of a crime that would be their second offence? Surely they're entitled to some legal representation. It's not up to the lawyers to stop doing their job - it's up to the judges and juries to start doing theirs and stop worrying about trying to avoid setting a precedent that might result in motorists actually being held accountable for their actions.

Radfahren uber alles.

Originally posted by khuon
Maybe it's always been happening and has just come to media-light but I've been noticing more and more incidents like these. Last year around here, a teenage recovering from a football injury got beaten with his own crutches (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/100239_assault17.shtml) by some other teens. Around the same time, a man was beaten with a skateboard (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/66251_skate12.shtml) during a traffic argument. And of course there was the much publicised story about the teen pushing a pastor who was cycling (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134445672_pastorpush30m.html). That case resulted in some push for new bills to address automobile-cyclist confrontations (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/64619_bike30.shtml). A couple of years ago there was a gang of early to mid teens roving around Tacoma, WA assaulting people for no other reason than to alleviate boredom.

And this all happened in nice polite Seattle I think it is time for the courts to make people truly pay for there sins. The pastor case was so sorry those kids spent the whole time blaming each other no one showed remorse the drive got a harsher punishment the the kid who actually did it because the judge said something along the lines of he wouldn't learn anything from it and the parents were even worse. If I had done anything like that my folks would of left me in jail until the trial (of course dad is a clergyman) this is all to hard to believe sometimes.

Originally posted by Chris L
...what if someone is wrongly accused of a crime that would be their second offence? Surely they're entitled to some legal representation... That would be a serious problem. I'll have to come up with something else. Hmmm... perhaps after second conviction...
Hmmm.... there's just gotta be a better way.

...it's up to the judges and juries to start doing theirs and stop worrying about trying to avoid setting a precedent that might result in motorists actually being held accountable for their actions. Well, I couldn't agree with you more, but that just doesn't seem to be happening.
Perhaps this is a case of people in a democracy (collectively) getting the government they deserve.

I hate this people, they attack people who can't defend themselves, back in the old country I used to ride my bike and I have a backpack, and inside the backpack I carry my service pistol a colt 45, and one time I was going home on a lonely stretch of road, a car stop just ahead of me and all four male passenger allighted from the car, and I, sense that they were into something not good, I alighted from my bike and got hold of my pistol, as soon as they see that I was holding my gun they boarded their cars again and sped away., I just wish that this kind of people are put away for good, , like bury them

Maybe it is time to reinstate the Selective Service; sounds like boot camp, an M-1 and a trench in the desert would do a lot of these punks some good.

I think we need to examine the root causes of this type of behavior. After the much publisized shootings at Columbine high school in Littleton, CO. people wanted awnsers and explanations. The usual suspects were rounded up and blamed. Popular music, video games, the parents, bullying, etc. I think that perhaps one or more of these were a contributing factor, but I don't believe they were the sole cause. What I'm getting at is, what malfunctions in a person's brain to cause such callous indifference to human pain and suffering? What causes such disregard for the sanctity of human life? Was it a case of a kid getting a hold of a gun and looking for an excuse to use it? I think not, I am a gunsmith's son and growing up I had access to more guns than twenty other kids combined and I never even THOUGHT of bringing one to school, much less shooting someone. Punishing the guilty is morally just, absolutely necessary, and crucial to maintaining law and order, but it does nothing to prevent these types of things from happening in the first place. So, in conclusion, we now have groups of teenage kids driving around and attacking bicyclists with ball bats as the latest manifestation of senseless violence in our society today, but what causes them to to these things in the first place? Sadly, I just don't know. What do you guys think?

Originally posted by Big Johnson
I think we need to examine the root causes of this type of behavior. After the much publisized shootings at Columbine high school in Littleton, CO. people wanted awnsers and explanations. The usual suspects were rounded up and blamed. Popular music, video games, the parents, bullying, etc. I think that perhaps one or more of these were a contributing factor, but I don't believe they were the sole cause. What I'm getting at is, what malfunctions in a person's brain to cause such callous indifference to human pain and suffering? What causes such disregard for the sanctity of human life? Was it a case of a kid getting a hold of a gun and looking for an excuse to use it? I think not, I am a gunsmith's son and growing up I had access to more guns than twenty other kids combined and I never even THOUGHT of bringing one to school, much less shooting someone. Punishing the guilty is morally just, absolutely necessary, and crucial to maintaining law and order, but it does nothing to prevent these types of things from happening in the first place. So, in conclusion, we now have groups of teenage kids driving around and attacking bicyclists with ball bats as the latest manifestation of senseless violence in our society today, but what causes them to to these things in the first place? Sadly, I just don't know. What do you guys think?

Excellent post Big Johnson. You went right to the heart of the matter with genuine concern. I feel sheepish for my initial angry response in light of what you have written.

Displaced anger? A lack of positive role models / mentors, i.e. parents, clergy, school teachers, relatives, friends, neighbors, professional counselors, etc...? Legal system that fails in holding persons accountable for functioning within the guidelines that define a structured society? All of these have to be high on the list of reasons that result in people striking out at others in this manner. Yet it's frustrating to try and pinpoint an origin due to cyclic escalation of violence...it is the proverbial snowball...and it is picking up speed at an alarming rate.

The United States Supreme Court's Decision on Bible Reading and Prayer Recitation in Public Schools (http://dunamai.com/articles/atheist/supremec.htm)?

From the site listed above:
It has become very apparent in 1997 America, that everything Justices Clark and Gold said should not be inferred by this ruling has happened and come to pass. We have witnessed a humanistic sectarian educational system devoid of any spiritual or religious instruction develop in America because of this and subsequent Supreme Court rulings. We are witnessing the goal of Madalyn Murray come to pass, the day that people in America are FREE FROM RELIGION!

I would love to see a study of violence in our society over the past century, would it show that we are an a very steep part of tragic curve that first started to rise from the baseline resulting from Murray v. Curlett?

Originally posted by threadend
Displaced anger? A lack of positive role models / mentors, i.e. parents, clergy, school teachers, relatives, friends, neighbors, professional counselors, etc...? Legal system that fails in holding persons accountable for functioning within the guidelines that define a structured society? All of these have to be high on the list of reasons that result in people striking out at others in this manner.

Yup - that's my perspective also. However, how does reciting @ least 10 verses from the Bible come into play here? I hold the separation of church and state to be paramount to a functional and free society. That freedom also translates to freedom of religion – the freedom to pursue the religion of one’s own choice, not the choice of the state.

However, having stated that, I do appreciate your thoughts and understand your perspective. Large chunks of today’s youth, IMHO, are not getting needed guidance. Ultimately, the parents have to take on this responsibility, and be accountable @ some level if they neglect this responsibility.

What does come through--not like I have ANY empathy for these kids, mind you--is that it's a horrible time to be a young person; the social message is that either a person is perfect or they're utterly without any value at all. This has got to be the cause of some of it. It might be why most of the spectacular at-school violence happens at white suburban schools. Just guessing.

Originally posted by bac
Yup - that's my perspective also. However, how does reciting @ least 10 verses from the Bible come into play here? I hold the separation of church and state to be paramount to a functional and free society. That freedom also translates to freedom of religion – the freedom to pursue the religion of one’s own choice, not the choice of the state.

However, having stated that, I do appreciate your thoughts and understand your perspective. Large chunks of today’s youth, IMHO, are not getting needed guidance. Ultimately, the parents have to take on this responsibility, and be accountable @ some level if they neglect this responsibility.

Agreed, I would never want anyone, including the government, deciding which religion is right for me. I guess I didn't see any religion being singled out in the court's decision, my background happens to be Christianity, so that's is where I turn for my ideals.

Forty years have passed since this case was heard, and we are here and now discussing what I in my earlier post agreed with was a fitting conclusion, with no particular religion being emphasized. How do we reach the kids, the parents, the grandparents with values that they haven't been taugfht and possibly don't know, but need to learn to abide in society? Perhaps teachings that are rooted in multiple religions and cultures, such as The Golden Rule, should still be studied. I'm with Big johnston, I just don't know, but I am troubled by the course being taken.

Originally posted by threadend
I'm with Big johnston, I just don't know, but I am troubled by the course being taken.

That makes 3 of us. :)

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Originally posted by Big Johnson
I think we need to examine the root causes of this type of behavior. After the much publisized shootings at Columbine high school in Littleton, CO. people wanted awnsers and explanations. The usual suspects were rounded up and blamed. Popular music, video games, the parents, bullying, etc. I think that perhaps one or more of these were a contributing factor, but I don't believe they were the sole cause. What I'm getting at is, what malfunctions in a person's brain to cause such callous indifference to human pain and suffering? What causes such disregard for the sanctity of human life? Was it a case of a kid getting a hold of a gun and looking for an excuse to use it? I think not, I am a gunsmith's son and growing up I had access to more guns than twenty other kids combined and I never even THOUGHT of bringing one to school, much less shooting someone. Punishing the guilty is morally just, absolutely necessary, and crucial to maintaining law and order, but it does nothing to prevent these types of things from happening in the first place. So, in conclusion, we now have groups of teenage kids driving around and attacking bicyclists with ball bats as the latest manifestation of senseless violence in our society today, but what causes them to to these things in the first place? Sadly, I just don't know. What do you guys think?

Yes, Big J... I too, was raised around weapons. Started hunting when I was 10yrs. Could shoot fly's on the barn wall from 20 paces by the time I was 11yrs... collected throwing knives and viewed weapons just by walking in the house. A loaded side by side and 30/30 stood just behind the front door or hung on the wall. I never once thought of taking knives or weapons to school, nor thought about hurting anyone...just helping to protect.

REASON..... Catholic school & family teachings. +++, if I crossed a behavioral line, I got a paddling that aside from shame, taught me those bigger and stronger would show me consequences for less then proper social behavior.

I would love to be in the same place at the same time as those kids. My retribution would be worth their weak kneed parents law suite. :D

Originally posted by bac
Yup - that's my perspective also. However, how does reciting @ least 10 verses from the Bible come into play here? I hold the separation of church and state to be paramount to a functional and free society. That freedom also translates to freedom of religion – the freedom to pursue the religion of one’s own choice, not the choice of the state.

However, having stated that, I do appreciate your thoughts and understand your perspective. Large chunks of today’s youth, IMHO, are not getting needed guidance. Ultimately, the parents have to take on this responsibility, and be accountable @ some level if they neglect this responsibility.

Religion is a personal choice...and once accepted permeates decisions and choices. I believe in God, a power greater then me. I started attending church at 5yrs old, later Catholic school and was taught that God, his teachings and bible verses are guides for man to better himself and to know right from wrong.

When I am in question, doubt or just don't know, I re-read The Book of "Proverbs" Try reading them, then maybe you might at the very least understand where a man like me comes from. Proverbs are written to teach man how to live and act in every circumstance. IMO..."Shame" is another very important feeling that grows out of religious training. Feeling shame is overpowering for me, especially since it's a form of self imposed punishment for less then proper behavior. It's part of that character thing.

You're right. Parents are not accepting their charge and the children we see today are the result... Children are NOT being parented...or taught about limits of behavior resulting in consequences. I am saddened by the lacking results at my son's elementary school.

Believing in God, and corporal punishment for children in the character developing years (3-7yrs) is paramount. In my 11yr old sons life, I am a greater physical power that he has to contend with if he tests a line... He knows, see's, and feels my love and wrath when he steps over...and I (hate passionately) that part of my job as parent. I can only pray that later in his life he'll look for consequences and know remember shame prior to him crossing a moral character or value that he knows is wrong.

Originally posted by Chris L


As far as I'm concerned, they should know better. Personally, I think the whole "they're only teenagers" argument is an insult to the well-behaved teenagers who don't resort to this crap.

:mad:

Absolutly they SHOULD know better and who do you think that falls to? It should fall to their parents! I bet if you look you will find these kids come frome homes where casual violence is an everyday fact and your worth is determined by how much you can belittle someone else. If you study violence and violent people you will see the same patterns repeated over and over in almost every case. This is by no means a call to excuse the perpetrator, but rather meant to point out the fact that we are often the product of our enviorment.

by all means once we hit that point we are responsible for our own actions. Teenagers in particular and people in general do respond to peer pressure. If we could jsut show kids that it is weak to do stupid stuff then we would have won half the battle.

Originally posted by Garbear
I can only pray that later in his life he'll look for consequences and know remember shame prior to him crossing a moral character or value that he knows is wrong.

He will, Garbear. It sounds as if you are creating consequences, and mentoring your son @ a level that is becoming somewhat rare today. I can only look back @ my childhood to see that my father did those same sort of things. I didn't understand why @ the time. However, as an adult, I understand and appreciate why he did the things he did. Moreover, I'm a much better person because of his guidance.

I see so many individuals around my age (36, btw) that obviously didn't get this in their formative years. Their values seem skewed to me - their attitudes also don't make much sense. I wish that I could go back and tell their parents to create negative consequences for them when needed. I wish I could go back and create the sort of environment that I was so fortunate to have as a child. :)

I wonder if motorcyclists, with their sometimes menacing, meth-lab in the basement, pitbull in the yard image get harassed like this. I understand that motorists started treating motorcyclists more kindly after the wave of biker movies in the late 1960's, and a few publicized Hells Angels arrests. Motorcyclists are FEARED, and bicyclists aren't. It might benefit us all if a few stories were planted with media to the theme of, knock over a bicycle rider and his/her buddies will burn your house down while your kids are sleeping.

Originally posted by Feldman
I wonder if motorcyclists, with their sometimes menacing, meth-lab in the basement, pitbull in the yard image get harassed like this. I understand that motorists started treating motorcyclists more kindly after the wave of biker movies in the late 1960's, and a few publicized Hells Angels arrests. Motorcyclists are FEARED, and bicyclists aren't. It might benefit us all if a few stories were planted with media to the theme of, knock over a bicycle rider and his/her buddies will burn your house down while your kids are sleeping.

Aside from riding bicycles most of my life, I can also speak as a motorcycle rider since age 14, a custom Harley Road King owner and club member in years gone by... Cages are bigger, heavier and often times driven by idiots, so my attention is heightened when on King. Yes, our rebellious riding image keeps stupid people from such acts most of the time... But, without a doubt there are a crazies out there that will attempt anything. Difference between a motorcycle rider and bike rider is what happens after he gets up off the ground. :fight:

Reminds me of a funny story my dad told me a couple of weeks ago:

in the late 60's my pop was driving to University and noticed a harley driving badass cut off a preppy looking guy on a 10 speed road bike. The preppy looking guy was fairly well muscled, the harley badass was quite large. Anyways, after the prep picked himself off the pavement, he peddled to catch up the harley rider at the next red light. My dads car was in the left lane, the harley in the right. The prep pushed the badass off the bike and told him to "bring it". Long story short, the harley riding badass got his ass kicked.

Moral of the story: don't underestimate the physically fit! :D

Originally posted by KrisA
Reminds me of a funny story my dad told me a couple of weeks ago:

in the late 60's my pop was driving to University and noticed a harley driving badass cut off a preppy looking guy on a 10 speed road bike. The preppy looking guy was fairly well muscled, the harley badass was quite large. Anyways, after the prep picked himself off the pavement, he peddled to catch up the harley rider at the next red light. My dads car was in the left lane, the harley in the right. The prep pushed the badass off the bike and told him to "bring it". Long story short, the harley riding badass got his ass kicked.

Moral of the story: don't underestimate the physically fit! :D

:lol: KrisA... and don't under estimate dads ability to tell a good yarn :D

Originally posted by Garbear
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Yes, Big J... I too, was raised around weapons. Started hunting when I was 10yrs. Could shoot fly's on the barn wall from 20 paces by the time I was 11yrs... collected throwing knives and viewed weapons just by walking in the house. A loaded side by side and 30/30 stood just behind the front door or hung on the wall. I never once thought of taking knives or weapons to school, nor thought about hurting anyone...just helping to protect.

REASON..... Catholic school & family teachings. +++, if I crossed a behavioral line, I got a paddling that aside from shame, taught me those bigger and stronger would show me consequences for less then proper social behavior.



Heya Garbear.. I was raised in somewhat the same way.. but it my house growing up it wasn;t guns.. it was alcohol... neither of my parents are alcoholics in any way, shape or form, but it was always int he house.. between the beers in the fridge, to the plentitude of bottles behind the bar... my parents did like to entertain occasionally... and the thing was.. I never really had any desire in my teens to drink.. for me it wasn't this taboo thing... it was right out in the open.. my parents raised me to be smart about it... I didn;t even have my first drink until I was almost 20 in college... and even now, very rarely drink. I blame a lot of the problems with teens today on their parents... most don't seem to care what the kids do, and do not really punish them when they do something wrong... I have a friend of mine, in prison now, who's parent's let him run wild as a teen, drinking, smoking, drugs... then he cleaned up.., went to college.. could have done anything.. very smart guy, but drifted back into the drug scene, and got busted for selling crystal meth.. it;s a shame... I can see it happening all the time.. i'm only 28, so I 'm not that far removed age-wise from teens.. but they aren't being disciplined by their parents as much as they were even 10-15 years ago when I was a teen.


Jeff

Originally posted by Feldman
I wonder if motorcyclists, with their sometimes menacing, meth-lab in the basement, pitbull in the yard image get harassed like this. I understand that motorists started treating motorcyclists more kindly after the wave of biker movies in the late 1960's, and a few publicized Hells Angels arrests. Motorcyclists are FEARED, and bicyclists aren't. It might benefit us all if a few stories were planted with media to the theme of, knock over a bicycle rider and his/her buddies will burn your house down while your kids are sleeping.

I'm not sure if you meant the last part of your post to be funny or not, but it made me almost fall outta my seat when I read it... Maybe we need our own biker movie... I can hear the preview now...

In a world gone wrong with Cages and road rage, one man, in a brightly colored skinsuit, stands up to the oppression of the white trash pickup drivin meth dealer...
"You messed with the wrong guy this time... you see me and my spandex wearing Colnago riding buddies are gonna kick yer ass !"

Explosions ensue


yeah... mayeb we can get like Vin Diesel, or someone like him to play the lead... hmmm I can see it now

Jeff

Originally posted by Garbear
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Yes, Big J... I too, was raised around weapons. Started hunting when I was 10yrs. Could shoot fly's on the barn wall from 20 paces by the time I was 11yrs... collected throwing knives and viewed weapons just by walking in the house. A loaded side by side and 30/30 stood just behind the front door or hung on the wall. I never once thought of taking knives or weapons to school, nor thought about hurting anyone...just helping to protect.

REASON..... Catholic school & family teachings. +++, if I crossed a behavioral line, I got a paddling that aside from shame, taught me those bigger and stronger would show me consequences for less then proper social behavior.



Heya Garbear.. I was raised in somewhat the same way.. but it my house growing up it wasn;t guns.. it was alcohol... neither of my parents are alcoholics in any way, shape or form, but it was always int he house.. between the beers in the fridge, to the plentitude of bottles behind the bar... my parents did like to entertain occasionally... and the thing was.. I never really had any desire in my teens to drink.. for me it wasn't this taboo thing... it was right out in the open.. my parents raised me to be smart about it... I didn;t even have my first drink until I was almost 20 in college... and even now, very rarely drink. I blame a lot of the problems with teens today on their parents... most don't seem to care what the kids do, and do not really punish them when they do something wrong... I have a friend of mine, in prison now, who's parent's let him run wild as a teen, drinking, smoking, drugs... then he cleaned up.., went to college.. could have done anything.. very smart guy, but drifted back into the drug scene, and got busted for selling crystal meth.. it;s a shame... I can see it happening all the time.. i'm only 28, so I 'm not that far removed age-wise from teens.. but they aren't being disciplined by their parents as much as they were even 10-15 years ago when I was a teen.


Jeff