Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Help! My fueling just isn't working...

I've read a lot of stuff posted on here and elsewhere and have tried to follow the suggestions, but it doesn't seem to be working. All the rides that I have trouble on are 100+ mile rides (and usually in the 7-8 hour range).

My fueling is as follows:

* 20 oz of water mixed with Ultra-Fuel (a carb+fructose mix, it's a 3 carb grams to 1 sugar gram) every 60-80 minutes.
* An Odwalla bar every 45-60 minutes for the first 1-3 hours (and then none after that)
* Every other bottle of liquid has an electrolyte powder added

Despite the above, I always have HUGE drop-offs in my rides. Usually, it's after hour 5 or so, but with the extreme heat the other day (95 F, muggy), I started having problems in hour 4. The last ride was super hot and I started having problems at mile 50 just after the 3 hour mark. I ended up going through all my liquids and having to buy an additional 90 oz of Gatorade to make it through (the gatorade really helps give me energy, but it lasted only about 10-5 miles or so each time).

I don't understand. I'm fueling primarily with liquid fuel, and it includes electrolytes. It's a mix of carbs/simple sugars. I've also got plenty of water in there. How do I fix this?

Also, could it partially be that I use sunblock - i.e. this messes up my cooling/sweating? I refuse to not use sunblock (as I prefer bonks to skin cancer), but maybe I can do something diff?

EDIT: Changed liters to the proper ounces.

My fueling is as follows:

* 20 liters of water mixed with Ultra-Fuel (a carb+fructose mix, it's a 3 carb grams to 1 sugar gram) every 60-80 minutes.

:eek: Twenty liters of fluids every hour?

I find that sugar is an energy food that gives temporary help with a big drag once it wears off.
It is like a narcotic or alcohol in that there is a withdrawal problem when the sugar wears off.
You need to eat a variety of things -- including protein.
Protein (from a burger, eggs, cheese, etc.) may take longer to digest, but it does provide on-going fuel.

try to get your calories from complex carbs. banish the fructose. here's a wealth of info from hammer:
http://www.hammernut.com/za/HNT?PAGE=ENDURANCE_LIBRARY&CAT=SUGAR

and some info on the tour riders eat from chris carmichael
http://www.trainright.com/info.asp?action=display&uid=3245

fructose won't carry you thru over a couple hours of riding. by replacing your ultra-fuel mixture with a powder that consists of maltodextrin, you'll be better off. i use perpetuem. others use something else. as long it doesn't have simple sugars.

add more electrolytes. at 95 degrees you are sweating a lot. the water/electrolyte balance is off a little judging from your description.

I eat crap on long rides - cheeseburgers, burritos, moonpies & everything else. My nutritional plan (and it is a plan) is to eat the same stuff I eat every other day. I've seen riders with only liquid fuels get sick after 50 miles. Seems to me that the only time they they go with all this liquid fuel is the day of the 'big ride' - so not only is their body stressed by the effort of the ride, but the stomach is asked to handle food it is not in the habit of digesting.

I'm no expert, but I try to keep my stomach happy on long rides by consuming familiar food. :love:

try to get your calories from complex carbs. banish the fructose. here's a wealth of info from hammer:
http://www.hammernut.com/za/HNT?PAGE=ENDURANCE_LIBRARY&CAT=SUGAR

and some info on the tour riders eat from chris carmichael
http://www.trainright.com/info.asp?action=display&uid=3245

fructose won't carry you thru over a couple hours of riding. by replacing your ultra-fuel mixture with a powder that consists of maltodextrin, you'll be better off. i use perpetuem. others use something else. as long it doesn't have simple sugars.

add more electrolytes. at 95 degrees you are sweating a lot. the water/electrolyte balance is off a little judging from your description.


Thanks. I had originally been planning to use only complex carbs but everything I read (including a study linked to by someone on the forum) that said a mix of fructose and carbs works better than just carbs. That's why I added in some simple sugars. Also, I'm not certain my body has enough energy left after a few hours to continue processing the complex carbs. So should I cut them out at a certain point? Switch to simple sugars part way through? I find that after "crashing" the only thing that has any effect is a bunch of simple sugars from a liquid.

I hear you on the electrolytes. What powder would you recommend? The one I'm using is not cutting it. I swear that when I use it I get muscle cramps, and when I don't they go away (I've monitored this over diff. hours and seeing what happens, if I'm drinking the electrolyte mix, over the next 60 minutes).

I'm still dialing in my fueling strategy. I got used to a liquid diet rather easily. I weigh 154 lbs, so according to that I'm "supposed" to take in about 225 calories an hour. I'm not sure where to get this number. I'm told the body can only process up 300 calories an hour anyways; any more than that is wasted energy in digestion. All my powders and gels are from Hammer Nutrition. I parse out enough powder (Perpetuem (http://www.hammernut.com/za/HNT?PAGE=PRODUCT&CAT=NUTRI&PROD.ID=4047)) and gel (Espresso Hammer Gel) + water in a bottle to get me thru whatever length of time I'm riding. On Saturday's double century I had one and three quarters bottles to last me the ten hours. It was a thick mixture. I snuck a couple apricots and a chicken wrap on one rest stop. I had no simple sugars that I knew of except a package of fig newton. I consider fresh fruit to be complex carbs (but I really don't know). All my main calories were from the bottles.

Here's a crap load of reading on caloric intake and electrolytes and stuff:
http://www.hammernut.com/za/HNT?PAGE=ENDURANCE_LIBRARY&CAT=MOREFUEL

For electrolytes, I consumed two tablets every half hour (two more per hour when the temps got up to eighty). They (Hammer) make a powder (http://www.hammernut.com/za/HNT?PAGE=PRODUCT&CAT=ELECT&PROD.ID=4037) as well, but I'm not used to the dosage so I'm sticking with pills for now. I don't know if it was the electrolytes or training, but I didn't cramp this ride at all. I have a very fast metabolism, so I think that's why I need so many pills. Less than that I get weak and crampy. Other guys on the ride probably had two an hour, if that.

In addition, I planned to not have a breakfast and it worked well. I had no gastric problems, cramps or heat sickness. Pouring water on my head helped cool me down a lot in the last 75 miles or so. I did need a massage they next day. My muscles were sore.

....have you tried lots of spaghetti the night before, bannanas the moring of(on top of whatever else you eat)? I'm all about the carbs and potassuim. But I dont ride competitively yet, I just swim competitively. But bannanas really really help me on distance events. Oh yeah, my favorite liquid while riding is 50/50 water and gatorade. On really long rides, its bannanas, my gatorade/water, and power bars. Snickers works too. And theyre yummier. But Im not racing anyone. Just trying to finish.

I'm still dialing in my fueling strategy. I got used to a liquid diet rather easily. I weigh 154 lbs, so according to that I'm "supposed" to take in about 225 calories an hour. I'm not sure where to get this number. I'm told the body can only process up 300 calories an hour anyways; any more than that is wasted energy in digestion. All my powders and gels are from Hammer Nutrition. I parse out enough powder (Perpetuem (http://www.hammernut.com/za/HNT?PAGE=PRODUCT&CAT=NUTRI&PROD.ID=4047)) and gel (Espresso Hammer Gel) + water in a bottle to get me thru whatever length of time I'm riding. On Saturday's double century I had one and three quarters bottles to last me the ten hours. It was a thick mixture. I snuck a couple apricots and a chicken wrap on one rest stop. I had no simple sugars that I knew of except a package of fig newton. I consider fresh fruit to be complex carbs (but I really don't know). All my main calories were from the bottles.

Here's a crap load of reading on caloric intake and electrolytes and stuff:
http://www.hammernut.com/za/HNT?PAGE=ENDURANCE_LIBRARY&CAT=MOREFUEL

For electrolytes, I consumed two tablets every half hour (two more per hour when the temps got up to eighty). They (Hammer) make a powder (http://www.hammernut.com/za/HNT?PAGE=PRODUCT&CAT=ELECT&PROD.ID=4037) as well, but I'm not used to the dosage so I'm sticking with pills for now. I don't know if it was the electrolytes or training, but I didn't cramp this ride at all. I have a very fast metabolism, so I think that's why I need so many pills. Less than that I get weak and crampy. Other guys on the ride probably had two an hour, if that.

In addition, I planned to not have a breakfast and it worked well. I had no gastric problems, cramps or heat sickness. Pouring water on my head helped cool me down a lot in the last 75 miles or so. I did need a massage they next day. My muscles were sore.

I have been on a program similar to bigsky for a numerous years without a problem. I maltodexetrin instead of fructose or sucrose is the way to go, atleast for me.

It could be training too. How many long rides do you do in the heat? 95f and muggy is pretty hot if you try and go quickly. A big change in ride length and/or temperature could cause this.

It could be training too. How many long rides do you do in the heat? 95f and muggy is pretty hot if you try and go quickly. A big change in ride length and/or temperature could cause this.

+1

If your plan is to go long, then you need to train specifically for riding a long time in the saddle while fueling. This means training rides of at least 60% of the goal distance at goal pace while practicing your fueling plan which should include a taper of volume a day or so before the practice session, an increase in short, fast, intense rides fueled by a mix of complex and simple carbohydrate with emphasis on complex slow (low glycemic index) carbs just before you go long.

Approaching the day of the "event", you'll want to have tapered over 3 days or so, switching your diet to about 70% carbohydrate, and re-enforce glycogen storage by staying hydrated. For every gram of carbohydrate stored in your muscles, your body requires 3 grams of water, so some weight gain is inevitable prior to the "event".

If the weather looks like it's going to be hot and humid, you need to include electrolyte replenishment as part of your plan. This may take the form of electrolyte capsules or tablets. Don't depend on getting enough electrolytes simply by drinking Gatorade. Under some circumstances, Gatorade -may- be good enough, but when you are riding over 4 hours in extreme conditions, you need more.

During the event, you need to put your fuleing plan into effect and stick with it. Even then, success can not be guaranteed, but the chance for success is greater than simply "winging it" or having an eating plan that isn't really a plan at all.

Did you see this in an earlier post that I made?

The mathematics of race fueling (http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/coachcorn/racefuel.html)

I eat crap on long rides - cheeseburgers, burritos, moonpies & everything else. My nutritional plan (and it is a plan) is to eat the same stuff I eat every other day. I've seen riders with only liquid fuels get sick after 50 miles. Seems to me that the only time they they go with all this liquid fuel is the day of the 'big ride' - so not only is their body stressed by the effort of the ride, but the stomach is asked to handle food it is not in the habit of digesting.

I'm no expert, but I try to keep my stomach happy on long rides by consuming familiar food. :love:

+0.5

I do a mix of real food and 'tech' food. I have a diluted mix of Hammer gel in my water bottles, a hydration pack that is pure water, and a half-dozen packets of gel that I take straight with a water chaser for most of my regular mileage. But then I'll pillage farmstands and delis along the route whenever I feel like it. Of course, I ride non-competitively, so my standards aren't quite up to the bar that some other posters hold themselves to.

However, for me, riding through the farmland of Vermont and New Hampshire, it seems an awful shame to pass up on some fresh strawberries or apples along the way; and I wouldn't be having as much fun if all I had in my mouth was that off-sweet, slightly tacky tang of supplement.

It is important to train with the diet that you plan on using, and I do use the gels when I go on my training rides, and haven't had a problem with mixing and matching. I think that, for me, sticking to one side exclusively is to ignore the benefits of the other. The liquid diet stuff is good for even, dependable energy. Real food is good for morale. I might not be finishing in the lead pack, but I'm still having fun, stopping along the route and enjoying the terrain that I'm travelling through.

I have been on a program similar to bigsky for a numerous years without a problem. I maltodexetrin instead of fructose or sucrose is the way to go, atleast for me.

I keep reading that everyone uses maltodextrin. Where can I buy this? In what form?

So what's the real answer? Some people said, "Don't use too much solid foods, stick to liquids." Others said, "Don't use simple sugars at all," while others said, "Use a mix of simple sugars and complex carbs," and still others, "don't use any complex carbs, your body won't be able to break them down." What's the answer? Why?

(See this thread for some of those suggestions/reasons: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=207094 )

I know that a number of times, my fueling has let me down. (And no, it's not because I'm not used to doing that distance. I've ridden 4 100+ mile rides so far this year and 7 total rides of 80+ miles in the last 2.5 months)

to answer your previous question: maltodextrin is a quickly processed complex carbohydrate; and is an ingredient in a lot of Hammer Nutrition products, Endurox's Accelerade and Gu Energy gels. It's probably worth pointing out that Clif doesn't use maltodextrin in its Clif Shot products as they tend to prioritize more natural ingredients like brown rice syrup and cane juice.


So what's the real answer? Some people said, "Don't use too much solid foods, stick to liquids." Others said, "Don't use simple sugars at all," while others said, "Use a mix of simple sugars and complex carbs," and still others, "don't use any complex carbs, your body won't be able to break them down." What's the answer? Why?
The reason why there are a lot of different answers is that we all have different physiologies and reactions to different forms of nutrition. We can suggest to you what works for us, but that doesn't necessarily mean it works for you. Take in the options, try a few, compare your experiences, and adjust accordingly.

And never expect real, definitive answers on internet forums. That's like expecting political solutions to Middle Eastern politics on talk radio.

Usually, if you can't figure out what kinds of fluids and fuels work for yourself -- it's best to try any old formula someone on the Internet says works for them ---- NOT.......

Off hand the silliest aspect of your fluid/fueling stratagy is the "mixing" of so many mineral-laden products. The very idea that you somehow think you know what you are actually doing to your hydration and mineral levels is ridiculous.

Could I suggest that you go back to normal foods and water when riding. And then try to add-in each product you think will help you. That is, add them in one at a time.......

Usually, if you can't figure out what kinds of fluids and fuels work for yourself -- it's best to try any old formula someone on the Internet says works for them ---- NOT.......

Off hand the silliest aspect of your fluid/fueling stratagy is the "mixing" of so many mineral-laden products. The very idea that you somehow think you know what you are actually doing to your hydration and mineral levels is ridiculous.

Could I suggest that you go back to normal foods and water when riding. And then try to add-in each product you think will help you. That is, add them in one at a time.......


I agree. I've neve tried to figure out an exact equation of fuel and hydration on rides nor do I rely on powders/gels/etc. These are great to have along as alternate fuel sources, but if you can, go for the peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, pretzels and mixed nuts at the rest stops (I skip the fruit except bananas, but that's just me). And if all else fails, do what I do, eat a Snickers with Almonds! Those stick to my ribs but rarely do I "crash" from the sugar. Besides, when else besides riding 60+ miles do you get to just chow down on a Snickers bar?

I have been trying hammer products lately. So far i like them better than any other. Least amount of stomache problems, and a flavor/sweetness level I can handle for extended durations.

What I dont like is their marketing/pricing method. They recomend 2 scoops of perbetuem an hour, 1-6 electrlyte capsules an hour, and a couple gells an hour. That works out to about $6.00/hr for nutrition. On a 10 hour ride thats 60 bucks in sports drink. I can drive my car for cheaper :)

I hate that they sell electrolytes seperate. DOes that mean their premium sports drink, perbetuem, doesnt have enough electrolytes to supply an athelete on its own?

I have been trying hammer products lately. So far i like them better than any other. Least amount of stomache problems, and a flavor/sweetness level I can handle for extended durations.

What I dont like is their marketing/pricing method. They recomend 2 scoops of perbetuem an hour, 1-6 electrlyte capsules an hour, and a couple gells an hour. That works out to about $6.00/hr for nutrition. On a 10 hour ride thats 60 bucks in sports drink. I can drive my car for cheaper :)

I hate that they sell electrolytes seperate. DOes that mean their premium sports drink, perbetuem, doesnt have enough electrolytes to supply an athelete on its own?2 scoops + 2 gels is 440 calories an hour. That's too much. Use less product. Half in fact. They would be the first to recommend using less.

1-6 Endurolytes depends on the heat. Out here in Portland I use less; while if I'm elsewhere I'd use more if it's hot. For morning rides I don't any at all. In the afternoon, I use up to six an hour so it evens out. I don't know why they don't have a better electrolyte profile in Perpetuem, but maybe it's for customization purposes like depending upon the temps. I too consider ever sip I take or electrolyte I swallow to have monetary value.

I'm always on the lookout for new products, like I came across http://www.oscycling.com ... but Hammer was still 25% per calorie cheaper.

I would probably guess that:
1) You're not drinking enough
2) You're not taking enough electrolytes
3) You're not taking in enough of the right carbs over the long haul

There's a lot of good articles over at ultracycling.com. Specifically, read up on sweat-rate and electrolyte replenishment. From what I've gathered, it's important to replace what you've lost while also maintaining the proper ratios or you will start to have problems that are exacerbated the longer your rides are.
Myself, I've found that I sweat about 30oz per hour. Therefore I need to replace those 30oz, plus the electrolytes that I've lost per hour. Surprisingly,(or maybe not so surprisingly) the ratio of electrolytes to liquid that I take in is very similar to what's in...sweat. Keep in mind that a persons requirements for electrolytes can change over a season as you become more fit, so take this with a grain of salt. (pun very much intended)
Also keep in mind that regardless of how many calories you burn, you can only digest so much per hour. I forget off hand how much it is, but I want to say that it's in the ballpark of 300 cal. (If I'm wrong about that, somebody please speak up) Anyway, my point is, if you can only get in so much, try to put in what can be digested quickly and put to work by your muscles as soon as possible. I've read that simple sugars can delay gastric emptying as well as fats and proteins in improper ratios. So I stick to complex carbs from maltodextrin. They digest quickly and burn more slowly and evenly than simple sugars. Ever feel bloated during a ride after you've eaten? Feel thirsty even though you've got water sloshing around in your gut? Chances are it's because you're asking your stomach to digest more than it can handle.

What I've done that has always worked for me in the past is to mix up my own gel/energy drink that has the ratios of complex carbs and electrolytes per serving all worked out so I can just add it to my water bottle and go. For my electrolytes I use table salt for sodium and a salt substitute for potassium. I'll through in some Tums w/ magnesium and calcium to pop on really long rides to be on the safe side, but I don't think these are as critical as sodium/potassium. You can get maltodextrin from a homebrew supply shop, but it can tend to be expensive. What I use is called 'Carbo Gain' from Now Foods. Last I checked it was about $12-$15 for a 7lb container. I don't bother to add any protein because I haven't read anything that would lead me to believe that it provides energy or any other short term (i.e., during the ride) benefit. After the ride for recovery, I'll eat as much as I can shovel in, though.

I'm not a doctor, bio-medical researcher, nutritional counselor, or religious icon, so anyone who would like to comment, please do. What I do is only based on the research I've pulled together from different sources, so I'm always interested in learning more.

I can post my recipe that I use if anyone is interested

I keep reading that everyone uses maltodextrin. Where can I buy this? In what form?

I'd guess that most people use a commercial drink that is based on maltodextrin, e.g. Hammer's Sustained Energy or Perpetuem. Both work well for me.

One person I know buys it in bulk from J.M. Swank. A 50 lb bag costs $40 plus $20 shipping. You need to decide what DE (dextrose equivalent) you want. The higher the sweeter. Check this out:

http://www.varied.com/food/maldescr.html

I recently got done experimenting with what I think (it was given to me) was M500 on the product code. That has a DE of 9-12. When I order a bag for myself I will probably go with the M180, with a slightly higher DE. This is break down of what DE is used for the different applications:

http://www.varied.com/food/foodap.html

The form is a powder that easily disolves in water. Some of the endurance riders I know either use it straight, or mix it with a protein powder. The stuff I was given was the malto+protein mix.

Obviously this is stuff you want to experiment with before heading out for a long ride. :)

Is the 300 cal/hr pretty much what everyone sticks to as a max?

Is the 300 cal/hr pretty much what everyone sticks to as a max?

Yup. Your digestive system will likely have trouble trying to process any more than that.

Read over some of the articles on nutrition etc. here: http://www.ultracycling.com/siteindex.html

I'm kind of surprised no one has mentioned this but ... if you eat normally in the week preceding an event, you should have approx. 2000 calories in storage ready to use. On a long distance ride (not a race) you are likely burning about 500-600 calories per hour. Therefore you could conceivably ride for about 4 hours with no food and be fine. (You should, however, drink water if you were to do that).

Because you've got all those calories in storage, you don't need to eat as many calories as you are consuming, and in fact, your stomach will likely hate you if you do. So, if you eat about 500 calories for breakfast before the ride (I usually drink a can of Ensure Plus = 355 calories and then drink a glass of juice = ~150 calories), and then start consuming 300 calories per hour, you will only tap into 200-300 calories per hour of those 2000 calories you've got in storage ... so you could ride quite comfortably for 7-10 hours.

Those 300 calories per hour could consist of solid food or liquid. A bottle of my HEED is around 200-300 calories, so if I consume one bottle of HEED in 2 hours, I've got 150 calories per hour from my HEED alone. The rest I top up with solid food. (And incidentally, one of HEEDs main ingredients is maltodextrin).

I have often suggested that people get a bento bag so they can have their food right in front of them, and so that they can nibble. If you stuff an energy bar in your mouth every hour on the hour in an effort to keep up with the 300 calories per hour, chances are you'll be sick, and you will get sick of the energy bars pretty quick. But if you take a bite of your energy bar ... and then 10 minutes later, take another bite ... and then 10 minutes later take another bite, etc., you'll eat the energy bar over the space of an hour, and your stomach will be much happier only having to deal with little amounts of food.

So, what happens at the 7-10 hour point when your stored calories are gone? At this point, I usually want a meal. Real food ... hamburgers, pizza, chicken croissant sandwiches, scrambled eggs on toast with a side of bacon and hashbrowns. I'll put away 1000+ calories. After I finish eating my real food, for the next hour or so, I ride slowly and easily to allow my stomach time to digest. With a few more stored calories to work with, I continue to consume about 300 calories per hour, and I can last about half the time I did ... so in other words, I want my next real meal in about 4-5 hours.

When the rides start to get long (let's say around the 18 hour mark) I prefer to start drinking a can of Ensure Plus about once an hour. Around that point I start to get sick of eating and I find Ensure Plus easier to digest than real food. However, I don't always have that luxury.

In addition to this I like to consume about one 750 ml bottle of water and/or sports drink every 1 to 1.5 hours. On really hot and windy days I might go through more, but around here that's ample.

And in addition to all that, if the day is at all hot, and I know I'm sweating a lot (my shorts turn white), I have an electrolyte pill I take about once an hour. On both my 400K and 600K brevets this year I was experiencing a hint of nausea, then took an electrolyte pill, and very shortly after the nausea went away.

-----

You mention that you stop eating your energy bars after 3 hours. I'm curious why you would do that. Then you say you experience a huge drop in energy at about 5 hours. If all you've consumed in the 2 hours after you stopped eating your energy bars is your energy drink, that would make sense. Have you tried continuing to eat your energy bars all the way through the ride?

I know eating one type of energy bar can get pretty old after a while ... try a variety! Go for some actual energy bars, some cereal bars, some granola bars, a banana, some dried apricots, a little bag of salted almonds, and an oatmeal raisin cookie or two.

-----
As for maltodextrin, you can buy small quantities of it at your local wine making shop. I can get a cup of maltodextrin powder for $1.

-----

This is what I used for endurance riding when I lived in Euope:
http://www.germandeli.com/traubenzucker.html

Includes maltodextrin.

Thomas

I think too much can be made of on-bike nutrition. The demarcator may be the use of the term "fueling": my experience has been that the folks who just eat tend to have fewer problems than the folks who "fuel". That may just be my cynical side coming out, though.

But in the tradition of a thousand monkeys at a thousand typewriters, Richard Cranium has said something important: Try some real food. A solid breakfast containing carbs and protein (the classic road racing breakfast of rare steak and rice really does work for long days, if eaten a couple of hours before the start) and then small, regular meals of whatever tastes good on the bike. It really isn't as difficult as we sometimes make it out to be, IMO.

You mention that you stop eating your energy bars after 3 hours. I'm curious why you would do that. Then you say you experience a huge drop in energy at about 5 hours. If all you've consumed in the 2 hours after you stopped eating your energy bars is your energy drink, that would make sense. Have you tried continuing to eat your energy bars all the way through the ride?
The problem is energy bars taste like plumbers putty after you've eaten more than a half dozen. I once ate 9 powerbars in one day. It worked, but I hated it. I've tried the variety thing and it helps, but I can't stand eating any kind of energy bar after being in the saddle all day.

I like your Ensure for breakfast idea -- I'm going to give that a try for a big ride I have next weekend.

I like perpetuem for long rides, but I cannot stand most endurance drinks including the other Hammer products. I actually prefer regular food and find that it works fine, but with perpetuem, I don't need to stop and eat and can consume calories very slowly.

If I'm going to be out all day, I like to avoid sweet things. I once consumed about 2 gallons of gatorade in one day. I wound up puking a few hours before the end, but I made it.

Don't try anything that your body doesn't already like. I am a fast burning individual and must start eating soon after the first hour or I get weak. Forget all the carb loading hype. New studies show that a 25% or greater mix of protein with the carbs allows the body to both absorb and recover better. I use Accelerade and Endurox depending upon mileage and heat. The Accelerade is light enough to drink a good bit of it. Endurox is heavier and can serve almost as a meal. There is only one flavor that I digest well under strain. I avoid gels, they are all too sweet and if I am riding hard, I am too warm to digest them well.

I also use several types of power bars. All nuts and berries. There is a new line out by clif that I like, it is a little salty, can be gotten in nuts and berry flavors and sits very well. It's a great source of potassium and sodium.

Another tip, if you burn hot, drink 2 beers the night before a big ride. The folic acid and whatever else is in them really seem to carry over into the next day. If not, you sleep good and dream well.

Good luck.

Another tip, if you burn hot, drink 2 beers the night before a big ride.
I don't see any reason to restrict my intake that much. :p

I think too much can be made of on-bike nutrition. The demarcator may be the use of the term "fueling": my experience has been that the folks who just eat tend to have fewer problems than the folks who "fuel". That may just be my cynical side coming out, though.

But in the tradition of a thousand monkeys at a thousand typewriters, Richard Cranium has said something important: Try some real food. A solid breakfast containing carbs and protein (the classic road racing breakfast of rare steak and rice really does work for long days, if eaten a couple of hours before the start) and then small, regular meals of whatever tastes good on the bike. It really isn't as difficult as we sometimes make it out to be, IMO.

It is if you have stomach problems, like I do. I spent four long years trying to figure out why my stomach shuts down (and then blows up) after 8-10 hours of exercise. The fix was something I almost stumbled upon. Before that I was unable to complete a 400k (I could suffer enough to finish a double), and events like PBP were out of reach.

I figured it out on March 17th of this year, which was my last attempt to complete a 400k. That hard won knowledge allowed me to complete my 600k a couple of weeks later, qualifying me for PBP.

There are always exceptions. My educated guess, though, would be that for every person out there who has to have a certain combination of maltodextrin and protein powder in a mix, there are a dozen folks who are trying to find some magic elixir when what they really need to do is just eat like a normal human being. :)

I've been having similar problems (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=310642). I'm still experimenting.

My first experiment was a gel-only century. It went a lot better than expected. Gels are sweet and I thought I'd be in for another sweetness overload, but the sweet taste doesn't linger too much for me. I also find it easier to force myself to down a gel when I'm not feeling like it than to down solid food. A small but fun benefit is that gels don't weigh your pockets down as much as solid food does. Problems with this experiment: (1) The heat wasn't too high, so gels may give me trouble in the heat. (2) A century isn't a long enough test. I had a good feeling about it, but I simply need a longer ride to be sure.

My second experiment (today, actually) was a new drink along with solid food. I've long been a Gatorade man due to its low price in bulk canisters, but I decided to try something with a different sugar makeup. I opted for the Clif Shot drink (lemonade), which tastes alright. My thinking was that Gatorade may have been too sweet for me and the simple sugars may not have given me the best energy blend possible. I was pleased with the Clif drink, but it didn't make much of a difference, to be honest. I was still having problems eating solid food. My stomach didn't end up feeling too bad though, so I think some of it may be a leftover mental block from the bad experiences I've had in the past. I'm going to start forcing myself to eat a little bit even on shorter rides to try to get over this. Let's hope I don't get fat doing so. I love my post-ride feasts! ;) I'll have to cut back on those a little. Problems with this experiment: same as above (didn't even break 80 degrees today).

Anyway, my stories probably can't help you one bit. So what's the moral of the story? Keep experimenting. Hopefully you (and I) will figure it all out soon.

The problem is energy bars taste like plumbers putty after you've eaten more than a half dozen. I once ate 9 powerbars in one day. It worked, but I hated it. I've tried the variety thing and it helps, but I can't stand eating any kind of energy bar after being in the saddle all day.

I like your Ensure for breakfast idea -- I'm going to give that a try for a big ride I have next weekend.



Yes, but it sounds like you're trying a variety of energy bars. I rarely use energy bars anymore. I think I've had one or two this entire season. Instead I used other stuff.

A delicious oatmeal raisin cookie, baked at home or found in the bakery section of your local grocery store, has approx. the same number of calories and nutrients as the piece of cardboard in a pretty wrapper with some energy bar manufacturer label on it. But the soft, moist, tasty oatmeal raisin cookie goes down a whole lot better ... so well, you actually feel like eating more of them! And to top it all off, they are a fraction of the price. :)

I bring a whole variety of FOOD with me, not a variety of energy bars. I might bring one or two energy bars if I happen to have stumbled on something tolerable, but the rest of what I bring with me is a collection of cookies, granola bars, little packets of beef jerky and salted almonds, dried fruit, crackers, etc. Food that actually tastes good and that I want to eat! :)

It is if you have stomach problems, like I do. I spent four long years trying to figure out why my stomach shuts down (and then blows up) after 8-10 hours of exercise. The fix was something I almost stumbled upon. Before that I was unable to complete a 400k (I could suffer enough to finish a double), and events like PBP were out of reach.

I figured it out on March 17th of this year, which was my last attempt to complete a 400k. That hard won knowledge allowed me to complete my 600k a couple of weeks later, qualifying me for PBP.

What was it? (Your solution/the problem)

On really long events, you need to fuel like an old-fashioned labourer. Fat and protein, eaten in meals, will keep you going. maltodextrin and electrolytes during cycling to top up, no more.

a burger and fries isn't a bad idea at a refueling stop. You'll know it's the right fuod when the thought of eating it makes you salivate. Listen to your body.

There are always exceptions. My educated guess, though, would be that for every person out there who has to have a certain combination of maltodextrin and protein powder in a mix, there are a dozen folks who are trying to find some magic elixir when what they really need to do is just eat like a normal human being. :)

I sincerely hope that your 1/12 ratio is correct, because I don't wish my problems on anybody else. Matter of fact, in February I was manning a control on the San Diego 300k. There was a rider there with stomach problems exactly like my own. At that time I didn't know what advice to give, and he didn't know what was going on, so the guy suffered through the rest of the ride.

What was it? (Your solution/the problem)

My stomach gets acidic to the point where it stops working. The backup is severe enough that I can't even take a bite of any kind of food. A year or two ago I strongly suspected that this was the case, but since Pepto Bismal, Maalox, and meds to control stomach acid didn't work, I discarded it and kept experimenting.

Then, earlier this year, while doing the Arizona brevet series, I got the chance to drink a more than normal amount of Starbucks Fraps (which I hardly ever drink because of the cost). The RBA does an extremely good job of supporting her brevets, having a bunch of good stuff on the controls, including the Fraps. To make a long story short, I eventually pieced together that whenever I had a Frap I did not have stomach problems. I tested this on the San Diego 400k, and what do you know it worked.

So, my goal is to have a Frap, or something else milk based, every four hours or so starting after 6-8 hours. The milk calms my stomach like nothing else. I can find these products in any convenience store.

Looking back on the last four years I can see clues here and there that something milk based is what I need. Those four years included 26 double century attempts (19 completions), a few 300ks, a few 400ks, and my one 600k.

I bring a whole variety of FOOD with me, not a variety of energy bars. I might bring one or two energy bars if I happen to have stumbled on something tolerable, but the rest of what I bring with me is a collection of cookies, granola bars, little packets of beef jerky and salted almonds, dried fruit, crackers, etc. Food that actually tastes good and that I want to eat! :)
There's a lot to be said for eating what you love. 130 miles into the the Seattle to Portland (relatively easy double) last year, I stopped for a bacon cheeseburger with onions. The other cyclists thought I was nuts and predicted I'd be sick, but they were jealous since they were living off Gu and similar rubbish.

I felt like a million bucks for the entire ride and felt like continuing further even after reaching Portland. As a matter of fact, I did go for a post ride spin. My buddies wanted to kill me since they were toast by the time we rolled in :D

So, my goal is to have a Frap, or something else milk based, every four hours or so starting after 6-8 hours. The milk calms my stomach like nothing else. I can find these products in any convenience store.

Looking back on the last four years I can see clues here and there that something milk based is what I need. Those four years included 26 double century attempts (19 completions), a few 300ks, a few 400ks, and my one 600k.

A perfect example of how what works for one does not work for another.

Milk works for you ...... but if I drank milk I'd be so incredibly sick from both ends. I actually envy people who can drink milk because it is a good source of nutrition and energy ... just not for me.


It's good to listen to your body and to know your body.

A word of caution to those who are depending on a particular product or collection of products (rather than real food) to get through a ride. That's fine for doing rides where you live because you know you can get the products you need ... but these products aren't always available elsewhere.

If you have any thoughts at all about doing randonnees in other countries, it would be a very good idea to work on increasing your tolerance of real food.

My stomach gets acidic to the point where it stops working. The backup is severe enough that I can't even take a bite of any kind of food. A year or two ago I strongly suspected that this was the case, but since Pepto Bismal, Maalox, and meds to control stomach acid didn't work, I discarded it and kept experimenting.

Then, earlier this year, while doing the Arizona brevet series, I got the chance to drink a more than normal amount of Starbucks Fraps (which I hardly ever drink because of the cost). The RBA does an extremely good job of supporting her brevets, having a bunch of good stuff on the controls, including the Fraps. To make a long story short, I eventually pieced together that whenever I had a Frap I did not have stomach problems. I tested this on the San Diego 400k, and what do you know it worked.

So, my goal is to have a Frap, or something else milk based, every four hours or so starting after 6-8 hours. The milk calms my stomach like nothing else. I can find these products in any convenience store.
That amazes me! I know a relatively common ailment among racers is acid reflux caused by being bent over the bike all day. Cures included avoiding certain foods -- coffee and milk products among them -- and some folks swore by using distilled water in the bottles. And once the acid production medications (Tagamet, et al.) became available, the old "magic" cures mostly went out the window. I've never in my life heard of someone sorting the problem by drinking lots of coffee with milk in it!

A perfect example of how what works for one does not work for another.

Milk works for you ...... but if I drank milk I'd be so incredibly sick from both ends. I actually envy people who can drink milk because it is a good source of nutrition and energy ... just not for me.


It's good to listen to your body and to know your body.

Just earlier this year I watched in fascination as a fellow rider put down a quart of chocolate milk. Yuck, I thought at the time. But now I know I need the same. A pint will be sufficient for me.

Responding to your other post, I have been working towards surviving on food commonly found in convenience stores and in other countries. Chocolate milk, or just milk, will substitute nicely for Starbucks Fraps. Other than that it is real food (like you eat) for me. Although, I do like to use Ultima in my water bottles. I will probably have a couple of gel flasks ;) of it to get me through PBP. A little Ultima goes a long way.

That amazes me! I know a relatively common ailment among racers is acid reflux caused by being bent over the bike all day. Cures included avoiding certain foods -- coffee and milk products among them -- and some folks swore by using distilled water in the bottles. And once the acid production medications (Tagamet, et al.) became available, the old "magic" cures mostly went out the window. I've never in my life heard of someone sorting the problem by drinking lots of coffee with milk in it!

Bent over the bike? At least you have the "bent" part right. ;) No, sometimes I have acid reflux because I am leaning back (you know, on my bent ;)) so much. The last few miles of the San Diego 400k was particularly nasty. Nothing a little Maalox can't fix.

I think the coffee part of Starbucks Fraps is quite low. At least the milk part far outweighs (for me) any acidity the coffee contributes. Think of Fraps as milk based with coffee added as opposed to the other way around.

I keep reading that everyone uses maltodextrin. Where can I buy this? In what form?You can buy it in 50# bags from your local homebrew supply house. Just google. There are homebrewers everywhere. I recommend mixing it 7 parts malto to 1 part flavored soy or whey protein. One pint of mixed powder mixed with water in a water bottle will last you about 3 hours. You can use this for the 250-300 cal./hr, carrying additional powder in ziploc bags. Follow Machka's recommendation for periodically eating real food on rides longer than about 8 hours.