Living Car Free - So are we just a bunch of drama queens?

Bizurke pointed out (I'm paraphrasing) that there's really no big deal involved in being carfree, and no reason to feel proud about it. Mostly, we're carfree because it suits us, saves us money, or just because we like to ride our bikes a lot. On the other hand, we probably are doing more for the environment than most of our associates.

Until this forum started, I never even thought of myself as being Carfree with a capital C. But I have had a clear idea for many years that cars are not good for us, and a long-standing determination to avoid them.

To those who have seen "Little Britain:"

"I'm the only gay in the village!"

It isn't that cars themselves are bad for us or the planet it's.........
The sheer number of cars that doing the evil to our world.

Are we "drama queens" championing the use of cycles in place of cars
in America?? NO! we are not. "WE" are on the leading edge of what
should have taken place in North America in the first place and was
until the car makers shoved cycle makers off the plate with cheap
cars.

That's right cycle makers were the dominant form of personal
transport at the turn of the 20th century.......then came Henry Ford & GM.
Cars before them were only for the very rich. A quick study of cycle history
will show this to be true.

How about the rest of the world use of cycles?? When the oil really starts to
run out or get to pricey how many car users will renew their use of the cycle
for personal transport??

So no we're not drama queens by any measure. If anything those who use
cycles in place of cars whenever possible are true champions of our planet
who will,in time, make cycle use more of the norm. It's happening already.

Bizurke pointed out (I'm paraphrasing) that there's really no big deal involved in being carfree, and no reason to feel proud about it.
...
Until this forum started, I never even thought of myself as being Carfree with a capital C.
Well, having grown up in europe, I think the sanctimonious attitude that some people in the US get about being "Car Free" is a little hard to understand. It's such a totally normal and everyday choice in Europe. No big deal!

But having lived in the US now for over 6 months I'm starting to see it somewhat differently. San Francisco isn't too bad, but it seems much of the country has been designed with only the car in mind - usually with the consequence that it's difficult, dangerous or inconvenient (or all three!) to be a pedestrian or cyclist. So, in much of the US I think going car free requires more determination than it does in other countries (where the infrastructure is designed to work for all people, not just drivers).

I still don't think being sanctimonious will help "the cause" though ;)

Being carfree in the US challenges all kinds of fundamental assumptions and common beliefs. Of course it's dramatic.

I've decided a little while ago that all the arguing about the whole carfree thing really isn't worth it. A lot of my piers were reacting in very emotional/aggressive ways to talks about carfree-ism. So now I downplay the whole thing, and try not to get into it.

So I go on living my life the way I chose to. I think in the end all the amount of talk won't do nearly as much good as just being seen doing it, day after day.

I'd actually love it if we ignored any flamewar-ish type posts. And just talked about the practicalities/difficulties of carfree living. Most posts started with the intent of getting information get sidetracked into cesspools because of one car-owner post, followed by 20 posts from inflamed car-free people responding to it.

It's funny how the carfree forum probably has more posts talking about cars than car-free.

So maybe a split into two forums: methods of being carfree and carfree advocacy?

for my $.02: I know plenty of people who live carlite/non-cycle carfree without giving much though to it, they just do it as a function of being frugal and not making much money. money is a license to waste; be it energy, time, or material things being wasted.

Sure you are, but that's just human nature. You could say that you're doing so much for the environment, but a vegetarian that has a car does a lot more than a carfree individual. You could also say that being car free helps to reduce the cycle of our "service for the sake of consumption" economy, but if you bought a new bike you can toss that out the window, which is besides the point since a frugal DIY'er probably contributes less than the average carfree individual. In short, there's no reason to strictly morally label carfreeness. If you like it, great. If you don't, great. Relating it in a simple manner to other complex issues is over the top and silly, proceed at your own risk.

I'd say yes, we are just a bunch of drama queens, some of the time at least. But, given the culture we live in, I think that's totally forgivable. In the US at least, if you don't have a car, you really stand out, and not in a positive way. I can't speak for others on this forum, but I'm the only carless adult I know. My closest friends think I've lost my mind, and confidently predict that I'll break down and go back to driving any day now. When I tell people I don't actually own a car, their first impulse is to suspect that I'm either unemployed or have too many DUI convictions. Women will still go out with me, usually (thank God I don't live in LA), but not having a car definitely earns me a mark in the "minus" column. After a while, you tend to react to all of that by being just a little testy and defiant, and attaching more meaning to the carless lifestyle than it actually deserves.

And BTW, not having a car doesn't make you morally superior, of course, but it really does make you a better environmental citizen. I've calculated (with some online help) that my personal carbon emissions are less than half of what they were when I drove a car. And being carless has led me to become more mindful of my overall consumption as well. So there. :p

Tightwad writes:


So no we're not drama queens by any measure. If
anything those who use cycles in place of cars whenever
possible are true champions of our planet who will,in time,
make cycle use more of the norm. It's happening
already.

Amen!

Sure you are, but that's just human nature. You could say that you're doing so much for the environment, but a vegetarian that has a car does a lot more than a carfree individual.
talk about a drama queen ;)

YES!!!!!!!!

You are all drama queens. Anyone that gives a person **** for getting a 60mpg+ vehicle because they have developed chronic fatigue or other medical condition should be shot on site. Same for implying that people are somehow inferior because they own cars. Or implying that living without a car is just as easy as with. Or telling a fine young gentleman the horrible lie that it will not effect his social/sex life (or rather, can cause a lack of both) to be car free.

Note: I do not yet have a PPK or CCW permit so you are safe for now :).

talk about a drama queen ;)

Listen you queen, don't make me cut you! :p

I'd actually love it if we ignored any flamewar-ish type posts. And just talked about the practicalities/difficulties of carfree living. Most posts started with the intent of getting information get sidetracked into cesspools because of one car-owner post, followed by 20 posts from inflamed car-free people responding to it.


I agree.

In America it is considered odd by many people to not use a motor vehicle. As we know things that are viewed as odd generally have a good amount of varying opinions surrounding them from every possible side. When something is viewed so differently by so many people it is bound to cause drama. Realize that this is a forum and no matter what people tell you, forums thrive on drama. No matter who you are you have been involved in some stupid little argument either on a forum or in real life. Whether you started it, rebutted, agreed or told everyone that the argument was stupid, you have been involved. Though many of the dramatic whiny posts on this forum are quite annoying I must say they can be entertaining. Over all I would say that many of the people on this forum are drama queens, however there is a good chunk that doesn't let it get to them. I can't lie, I take a piece of the drama here and there, and I have fun doing it.

(note: yes I know we're not all in America, but IMHO most people in this forum are Americans... let the flames commence)

P.S. Awesome, one of my comments started a new post ;-)

I don't know if drama queen is the right phrase, but there is a certain smugness about a lot of the carfree proponents.

I don't know if drama queen is the right phrase, but there is a certain smugness about a lot of the carfree proponents.
How 'bout a compromise description - smug drama queens?

OTOH, you don't see many people smugger than somebody who just bought a new Escalade, Jaguar or whatever. Even if they just signed over 20 % of their paycheck to a finance company for the next six years and they live in a shack with 3 roommates, they are crowing and gloating about their new penile substitute.

I'd rather be smug (and I am sometimes) about doing something that contributes to my freedom, health and financial solvency.

As to drama, I was thinking along Bizurke's line of reasoning. Once in a while I ride a bus here in Lansing. There are usually a lot of people on the bus (20-30, even though the car people on this forum always say they only have 2 or 3 riders), and I assume that most don't own cars, or at least are car light and not using the vehicle today. But I bet if you asked them "Are you CARFREE?" most would look kind of puzzled. "Well I never thought about it...I don't have a car, if that's what you mean." But I don't think lack of a car is part of their identity, the way it is with many of us.

Drama or not I can tell you that I get A LOT of questions about
my Worksman PAV trike from folk's over 40 who admire my gas
savings. Many would like to move to a cycle but are frustrated
by the lack of simple durable bikes that are safer to ride.

That said, I believe that "Dutch type" trikes might do very well if the
public had some place to ride & buy them. I spent a 1/2 hour with a family
recently explaining where I got my PAV and why I set it up the way I did for
serious utility work. The Dad in this family took notes the whole time to use
while shopping for a trike. This is but one conversation I've had with all sorts
(and ages) of folk's who are interested in the use of cycles for utility type use.

I take the time to share with all who as because if I can interest just 1% of those
I talk with to use cycles in place of cars for even some car use then our planet will
benefit. It will also move the idea of cycles for personal transport closer to the norm.

Bizurke pointed out (I'm paraphrasing) that there's really no big deal involved in being carfree, and no reason to feel proud about it. Mostly, we're carfree because it suits us, saves us money, or just because we like to ride our bikes a lot. On the other hand, we probably are doing more for the environment than most of our associates.


I don't feel necessarily proud of being carfree. I do, however, feel relieved of having one less thing to worry about.

I don't know if drama queen is the right phrase, but there is a certain smugness about a lot of the carfree proponents.

I'm not sure what a drama queen is, it isn't in the two dictionaries I consulted.

Smug is in the dictionaries. Webster's definition 3 below seems to apply more accurately to the car culture apologists than it does to the car free people. The parts about "belief in one's own superiority", and "contented resistance to change, provincial lack of vision, or deprecation of others" fit.

I obviously have a belief in car free superiority over car dependence or I wouldn't have switched. Since I did make the change I obviously have no "contented resistance to change". Since I had the foresight to make the sequence of decisions to move from car dependant to car free, I don't have the "lack of vision". So if belief in car free superiority over car dependent lifestyles is all it takes to be labeled smug- thats me!

Car culture apologists make such an easy target you can't blame us car free for taking the bait and engaging in deprecation now and then especially when they type such blatantly false or ignorant things into this forum.


Oxford English:
Of male persons: Trim, neat, spruce, smart; in later use, having a self-satisfied, conceited, or consciously respectable air.
The word has been in very common use from the 16th cent., and the earlier sense shades imperceptibly into the later, so that quotations cannot be separated.

Websters:
1 : presenting a smooth, well-groomed appearance : NEAT, SLEEK

2 : giving an impression of scrupulous correctness and respectability

3 : marked by or suggestive of belief in one's own superiority, virtue, and respectability usu. accompanied by contented resistance to change, provincial lack of vision, or deprecation of others

OTOH, you don't see many people smugger than somebody who just bought a new Escalade, Jaguar or whatever. Even if they just signed over 20 % of their paycheck to a finance company for the next six years and they live in a shack with 3 roommates, they are crowing and gloating about their new penile substitute.
Sounds pretty smug alright. How many of these gloating, impoverished Escalade/Jaguar/whatever owners have you actually had the pleasure of meeting and learning about their living arrangements as well as financial and physical assets? Let me guess - 0?

...especially when they type such blatantly false or ignorant things into this forum.
Do you mean like: smug people "who just bought a new Escalade, Jaguar or whatever. Even if they just signed over 20 % of their paycheck to a finance company for the next six years and they live in a shack with 3 roommates, they are crowing and gloating about their new penile substitute"?

I vote for drama queen, of course I would because I own a car. There seems to be a lot of elitism here, more than the commuting section anyways. I know being green is in style right now and not owning a car probably makes you extreme and all. But I live in the real world. I have a wife and kids. It sounds like most of you hard core types don't have kids, they change everything when it comes to transportation.

I have my own reasons for owning a car, but most of you elitists consider them excuses. Don't get me wrong I enjoy reading the threads, but face it, some of you guys are very predictable

What I find amusing is that there are a lot of car-free individuals who don't give it a second thought... They live their lives without a car and have no real problems with it.

Places you'll see a lot of carfree people:

Colleges
Military
Large cities

Been there, done that. Including the dating while carfree, and I never really had any issues... I'm kind of shy by nature, though, and never tried to 'pick up' girls in bars... my girlfriends have been people that I met in social situations. Hell, I don't know how many times while I was in the military that we used each other's cars, or all went out as a group because the majority didn't have their own cars. It's just one of those things you do... of course, when you're stationed on a ship and make an overseas port visit, NOBODY has a car... you either rent one, walk, or use public transportation. It's just a fact of life, and we all managed to have a pretty damn good time.

I've been running downtown on my bike during lunch, and was actually surprised at the number of bikes that are locked up down there.... Not as many as on bike to work day, but there are still a LOT more than I expected to see.

I vote for drama queen, of course I would because I own a car. There seems to be a lot of elitism here, more than the commuting section anyways. I know being green is in style right now and not owning a car probably makes you extreme and all. But I live in the real world. I have a wife and kids. It sounds like most of you hard core types don't have kids, they change everything when it comes to transportation.

I have my own reasons for owning a car, but most of you elitists consider them excuses. Don't get me wrong I enjoy reading the threads, but face it, some of you guys are very predictable

You're right, with small children things change dramatically, and in your shoes, my guess is that I'd make the same choice you've made. However, there are many who have chosen otherwise:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/eastsidenews/2003023972_carless28e.html

In addition, I've noticed there's also a certain degree of smugness associated with parenthood, alongside which carfree smugness PALES in comparison, but I'll not pursue this one.

I'm not sure what a drama queen is, it isn't in the two dictionaries I consulted.
You checked the wrong dictionaries. Here (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=drama+queen) you go.

Enjoy your ride. That's about it.

I vote for drama queen, of course I would because I own a car. There seems to be a lot of elitism here, more than the commuting section anyways. I know being green is in style right now and not owning a car probably makes you extreme and all. But I live in the real world. I have a wife and kids. It sounds like most of you hard core types don't have kids, they change everything when it comes to transportation.

I have my own reasons for owning a car, but most of you elitists consider them excuses. Don't get me wrong I enjoy reading the threads, but face it, some of you guys are very predictable

Dear rec-cyclist
Thanks for the sterotypes, the references to elitism (x2), extremeness, lack of real world awareness, the categorization as hard core, and the sin of poor judgement (ours) on not having or recgonizing the dangers/stupidity of cars and wives/babies. I will (others will too- I hope) try to be more entertaining and less predictable. Thank you for visiting the car-free forum and please feel free to add more wisdom, as well as tips and hints to help us gain recgonition as a viable transportation alternative.

I'd actually love it if we ignored any flamewar-ish type posts. And just talked about the practicalities/difficulties of carfree living. Most posts started with the intent of getting information get sidetracked into cesspools because of one car-owner post, followed by 20 posts from inflamed car-free people responding to it.


+1

I'm not car free, insofar as I own a car. And my wife owns a car. And we even use the cars. But we bike as much as practical / possible, such as to work, on grocery runs, out to eat, etc.

I read the car free forum to see what clever ways others come up with to navigate the US without the car, and I try to read through the "elitism" and pick up useful tips, of which there are many to be found here.

The so-called elitism that pervades this topic takes other forms in other topics. For example, it seems that most everyone really hates hybrid bikes, and the animosity directed toward hybrid riders is sometimes astounding (I ride a Trek 7200 fx, so I'm one of the targets). What puzzles me is that, in the end, we're all cyclists and we all have this common activity that should unite us. Furthermore, we're all riding many of the same components, which makes these silly arguments look like they're just about geometry.

I often wonder why we don't emphasize what unites us -- namely cycling. Is it some hard-wired tendency to split up and take sides, as if cycling were a political struggle??

It strikes me that "car free" is often about leaving an environmentally shallower footprint. I'm doing what I can to accomplish that and I'm pleased with the progress that I continue to make in this direction. And I don't try to beat others over the head with my transportation-lifestyle. I encourage people, I help with bike repairs, planning trips and routes, advice about traffic, and so on.

That's enough for me, and it makes a much further-reaching impact when you treat fellow riders respectfully and with encouragement. If you want to be an "elitist" or a "drama queen", just recognize that you end up putting people off, and that hurts the common goals of getting more people cycling and keeping our footprints light.

I'm not car free, insofar as I own a car. And my wife owns a car. And we even use the cars. But we bike as much as practical / possible, such as to work, on grocery runs, out to eat, etc.

I read the car free forum to see what clever ways others come up with to navigate the US without the car, and I try to read through the "elitism" and pick up useful tips, of which there are many to be found here.

The so-called elitism that pervades this topic takes other forms in other topics. For example, it seems that most everyone really hates hybrid bikes, and the animosity directed toward hybrid riders is sometimes astounding (I ride a Trek 7200 fx, so I'm one of the targets). What puzzles me is that, in the end, we're all cyclists and we all have this common activity that should unite us. Furthermore, we're all riding many of the same components, which makes these silly arguments look like they're just about geometry.

I often wonder why we don't emphasize what unites us -- namely cycling. Is it some hard-wired tendency to split up and take sides, as if cycling were a political struggle??

It strikes me that "car free" is often about leaving an environmentally shallower footprint. I'm doing what I can to accomplish that and I'm pleased with the progress that I continue to make in this direction. And I don't try to beat others over the head with my transportation-lifestyle. I encourage people, I help with bike repairs, planning trips and routes, advice about traffic, and so on.

That's enough for me, and it makes a much further-reaching impact when you treat fellow riders respectfully and with encouragement. If you want to be an "elitist" or a "drama queen", just recognize that you end up putting people off, and that hurts the common goals of getting more people cycling and keeping our footprints light.

You're new here, aren't you?

Just kidding. I like your post, actually; it's refreshingly reasonable, and, I don't know, mature.

Just my .02:

1. In this country, in many ways cycling IS a political act, (which is possibly one reason rednecks in pickups try to run me down sometimes, because they sense it, too). I mean, fundamentally, it's just a cheap way to get around, but it's also a quiet rebuke to our heavy-consumption lifestyle. Sort of like eating rice and vegetables in front of a person who just finished topping off her triple-bacon cheeseburger with a large hot fudge sundae...

2. Are there really people who hate hybrid bikes?! I have a hybrid, which I love, and this is not good news. I've had some skinny-tire lycra types give me superior little smiles from time to time, as they blow past my fat-tire, beer-laden steel monstronsity, but never more than that, not so much as a smug comment. News of this attitude is deeply hurtful.

3. Since you own cars, and I do not, I will always look down on you. Yeah, right. Just because I'm too cheap to buy a car, and am totally freaked out about global warming and peak oil, and am desperately trying to contribute my drop in the bucket doesn't mean I feel superior to a man who's spewing CO2 into the atmosphere like there's no tomorrow... I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself. Going for the cheap laugh at another's expense. In all seriousness, I heartily applaud your efforts. No, I mean it this time. If we all did what you're doing, things wouldn't be quite so terrifying right now...

I think that the car-bound are the drama queens. When confronted with the idea that someone could ride a bike, instead of the car sends them wild. They cry about how it could never happen, how everyone is addicted to cars, how cars are needed for continued existance of the American way. To them I say you a wrong--

View this short video from 1899. Right click and save.
http://memory.loc.gov/mbrs/awal/0147.mpg

YES!!!!!!!!

You are all drama queens. Anyone that gives a person **** for getting a 60mpg+ vehicle because they have developed chronic fatigue or other medical condition should be shot on site. Same for implying that people are somehow inferior because they own cars. Or implying that living without a car is just as easy as with. Or telling a fine young gentleman the horrible lie that it will not effect his social/sex life (or rather, can cause a lack of both) to be car free.

Note: I do not yet have a PPK or CCW permit so you are safe for now :).
You sound pretty dramatic to me. I don't see anybody making the assertions or judgments that you speak of. I think shooting people is kinda dramatic.

You may call me a drama queen because I fart in the general direction of your automobile. I say you are the drama queens who will pollute my lungs with your fossil-flatulence and my ears with such drabble as "waaa! I need my car, don't judge me! Boo hooo! You can be carfree, just don't tell me about it! Waaaa!"

Just because people speak of the detrimental effects of driving cars and offer eachother support and encouragement in their daily endeavor to live life with a liter foot print doesn't make us elitists. I think it is a good thing for people to challenge eachother and push eachother to our limits.

.....
Sort of like eating rice and vegetables in front of a person who just finished topping off her triple-bacon cheeseburger with a large hot fudge sundae...


HEY! I LIKE my triple-bacon cheeseburgers, damn it!

I'm not car free, insofar as I own a car. And my wife owns a car. And we even use the cars. But we bike as much as practical / possible, such as to work, on grocery runs, out to eat, etc.

I read the car free forum to see what clever ways others come up with to navigate the US without the car, and I try to read through the "elitism" and pick up useful tips, of which there are many to be found here.

The so-called elitism that pervades this topic takes other forms in other topics. For example, it seems that most everyone really hates hybrid bikes, and the animosity directed toward hybrid riders is sometimes astounding (I ride a Trek 7200 fx, so I'm one of the targets). What puzzles me is that, in the end, we're all cyclists and we all have this common activity that should unite us. Furthermore, we're all riding many of the same components, which makes these silly arguments look like they're just about geometry.

I often wonder why we don't emphasize what unites us -- namely cycling. Is it some hard-wired tendency to split up and take sides, as if cycling were a political struggle??

It strikes me that "car free" is often about leaving an environmentally shallower footprint. I'm doing what I can to accomplish that and I'm pleased with the progress that I continue to make in this direction. And I don't try to beat others over the head with my transportation-lifestyle. I encourage people, I help with bike repairs, planning trips and routes, advice about traffic, and so on.

That's enough for me, and it makes a much further-reaching impact when you treat fellow riders respectfully and with encouragement. If you want to be an "elitist" or a "drama queen", just recognize that you end up putting people off, and that hurts the common goals of getting more people cycling and keeping our footprints light.

Good post, Brian. :) I agree with much of what you say, but not everything.

One lesson of Bikeforums is that cycling is a unifying issue only to a point. Bikeforums is divided into many subforums because we as cyclists are not in total agreement aout which aspects of cycling interest us. We don't agree about which type of bike is best--road, mountain, tandem, ss/fg, BMX, etc. We don't even agree about the purpose of a bike. Is it a toy, a vehicle, a training machine, a political statement? There is room for all these views here, and many more, but I don't see why we must always agree with one another just because we all love bikes.


I'm not car free, insofar as I own a car. And my wife owns a car. And we even use the cars.

These are the very first words of you message and that's fine--your choice and all that--however, you do know that that this is a carfree forum. I hope you don't expect to find a lot of support here for your choices. But neither should you expect to be attacked, since you seem to be expressing your opinion in a sincere manner.

Personally, I would be more interested in your reasons for continuing to drive, even though you seem to have some misgivings about cars and their impact on the environment. It seems that, like almost everybody, you would drive much less if you believed that you could still have a nice life without driving much at all. Well, there are many voices here saying that you probably can live nicely without a car. And if that's not feasible, there are ways to drive less, many of them involving creative use of the bike you love. If you do indeed want to cut back on driving, I hope you find ideas and support from some of the things we post here. OTOH, maybe you'll consider that a statement of our choices, and our enthusiasm for the "cause"--both expressed in a friendly carfree environment--are not meant as attacks on you personally, or on your car-centered lifestyle.

Which leads me to the other statement that gave me pause:


And I don't try to beat others over the head with my transportation-lifestyle.

Who do you think is beating somebody over the head with their transportation choices? I assume you mean it is carfree people on this forum. If so, I'd like to give you the other point of view: Since this is a carfree forum, you really have to expect that people will unapologetically affirm their choice to be carfree. Expecting otherwise is like going to the 2004 GOP convention and claiming that John Kerry isn't being given a fair chance for rebuttal. A good Republican in that forum might say, "Oh well, so what? He'll have his chance in November." In this forum, we are much more welcoming than that, but we still feel justified in expecting that carfree is the norm here, and we assume (sometimes wrongly) that people who post are either carfree themselves, or else come to learn more about it.

Hey thanks for your kind responses. If I might just add a couple of thoughts:


2. Are there really people who hate hybrid bikes?! I have a hybrid, which I love, and this is not good news. I've had some skinny-tire lycra types give me superior little smiles from time to time, as they blow past my fat-tire, beer-laden steel monstronsity, but never more than that, not so much as a smug comment. News of this attitude is deeply hurtful.

I usually read the commuter forums, because I am a commuter and there does seem to be a sort of looking down on those who choose hybrids. It makes me sad, especially when other riders push really expensive bikes as the only way to ride. These are the sorts of occasions where I want to say, "But hey! We're all commuters here!"

So yes I'm a total newb in this forum, but I'm here because I'm becomming car free, and that's not always easy. My gentle admonishment to the "drama queens" is in that spirit. There are those of us here who want to learn more, and just because we have four-wheeled steel beasts still in the driveway doesn't mean that we're monsters.

I would also argue that I do not have a "car-centered" lifestyle. For example, I last put gas in the car on May 1. Since then, I have driven 200 miles, which includes a trip to visit friends far away (no public transport available or we'd have taken that) -- and we brought the bikes -- and also trips to the lumber yard because I build furniture part time and have to get materials once in a while. That kind of stuff is tough to carry 20 miles on the bike :)

Other than that, I walk or ride. We live in a convenient spot where all the things we need are within a mile or two.

By "beating over the head" I didn't mean anyone in particular. I just mean that I try to take a sympathetic tone with people. For example, I started biking to work because of concerns of peak oil, patriotism, etc. (Yes, biking is quite patriotic, I'd say). At first, everyone just assumed that I got my license suspended -- how about that? Rather than fire back with stats about the Hubbert Peak or CO2, I tell them that I have made a choice. I find that after a response like that, they're interested in why, rather than defense about their own habits. Since then, I have made a few commuting converts at work, and that makes me happy.

My wife works five miles away and looks really cute on her Electra Townie, so I'm continuing to encourage her to ride more often too. Plus, we're training for our Labor Day vacation to the beach. We're doing a 55 mile ride out.

Anyway, thank you for the thoughtful responses. I'll continue to quietly read more and learn.

^^Well I'm glad you're here Brian. I think you'll have a lot of fun getting into bikes more and cars less.



By "beating over the head" I didn't mean anyone in particular. I just mean that I try to take a sympathetic tone with people. For example, I started biking to work because of concerns of peak oil, patriotism, etc. (Yes, biking is quite patriotic, I'd say). At first, everyone just assumed that I got my license suspended -- how about that? Rather than fire back with stats about the Hubbert Peak or CO2, I tell them that I have made a choice. I find that after a response like that, they're interested in why, rather than defense about their own habits. Since then, I have made a few commuting converts at work, and that makes me happy.

Well of course I take a sympathetic approach with people in real life too. But this forum is one place where I like to let my hair down, since I assume most people are basically sympathetic to the carfree concept.

You may call me a drama queen because I fart in the general direction of your automobile. I say you are the drama queens who will pollute my lungs with your fossil-flatulence and my ears with such drabble as "waaa! I need my car, don't judge me! Boo hooo! You can be carfree, just don't tell me about it! Waaaa!" +1.

Amazing how those who made our cities stinky and noisy concrete jungles and who kill many thousands of people every year both directly and indirectly (e.g. asthma...) have the gall to demand respect for their choice as if there was nothing wrong with it whatsoever. Yes, there IS something wrong it. Sure, a responsible and light use of a car is fine. Sure, a lot of the times one is pretty much forced to have a car in the U.S. and to use it heavily but it's still nothing to be proud about. At best it's forgivable.

Eh, I wish this forum would be more about getting down to the business of being car-free and less about ideology. I'd have the same reaction at a quit-smoking forum where the majority of discussions would revolve around the pros and cons of quitting. I mean, to me it's a tautology -- this is the car free forum. It was created (I assume) for people who are car free or want to be. If you think car free is not for you, don't come here.

I just like to ride my bike and not make a big deal out of being car free, but then that's the way I grew up in Europe. I'm bewildered about this forum at times and unfortunately it's only of limited use for me.

It seems to me that many on this forum think that being carfree is morally superior to having a car. This comes out in many post where people mention that they are car-light or even when car owners ask questions.

The way that our society is structured it is impossible for any of us not to rely on oil driven vehicles. They bring our food to the store, they bring our computer parts from Asia, they even bring our loved ones to our homes. Should my 78 year old mother-in-law ride a bike to the market when it's -20c outside? No, she should take the bus as she does. Many people live in very different circumstances than we do. This should not be frogotten.

In short it's a lifestyle choice that each individual makes. No one will change their mind about petro dependence by having someone tell them that they are morally superior to them and should live their lives las they do.

As free people we should look at others with respect even if we don't agree with the way they live there lives. Just as we would like them to look at us. Through positive actions things will change.

*cough*

It seems to me that many on this forum think that being carfree is morally superior to having a car. This comes out in many post where people mention that they are car-light or even when car owners ask questions.

The way that our society is structured it is impossible for any of us not to rely on oil driven vehicles. They bring our food to the store, they bring our computer parts from Asia, they even bring our loved ones to our homes. Should my 78 year old mother-in-law ride a bike to the market when it's -20c outside? No, she should take the bus as she does. Many people live in very different circumstances than we do. This should not be frogotten.

In short it's a lifestyle choice that each individual makes. No one will change their mind about petro dependence by having someone tell them that they are morally superior to them and should live their lives las they do.

As free people we should look at others with respect even if we don't agree with the way they live there lives. Just as we would like them to look at us. Through positive actions things will change.

You are right, we do depend on fossil fuels for damn near everything we do (even building bicycles! Holy sh**!). But we do the best we can with the options that are available to us. Along the way we learn of other changes that can be made in our everyday lives, and with a little persistance, we start to become better people. But I can't say I've ever heard anybody actually say that they are morally superior because they don't drive a car. Quite contrary, I hear people tell others how morally superior they are for having the etiquette not to inconvenience people with the idea that they are not doing nearly as much as they could do to make a positive impact on the world. Its almost as if the message I get from people is: "keep your god damn mouth shut! Don't tell us anything that doesn't make us feel we are absolved from all responability!".

But anyway, you bring up a very valid point: We are all inescapably dependant on social structures that we dispise. But for f***'s sake, lets try to do something about it then, or else accept responability for our participation. there is no moral superiority here. I'm probably the most lazy bastard in this forum. We just gotta rock the boat a little bit! A small group of dedicated people can change the world!