I have to admit I'm a bit of a jerk sometimes. However, I may now be crossing the line. Ever since I nearly got murdered by someone turning right on a red light when he shouldn't have [he blamed me, of course], I've been taking the law into my own hands.
Whenever I wait at a red light, I make a point to get into the way of drivers trying to turn right when there is a "NO TURN ON RED" sign clearly posted. I just sit there in front of them. Everyone reacts the same exact way: First they inch forward. Then they politely honk. I point to the "no turn on red" sign and the red light. Then they honk some more. I point to the sign again. Then they open their window and yell "Get the f--k out of the way! I'm turning!" Pointing to the sign once more I say, "No right turn on red."
At that point they do one of two things:
1) Shut up and politely wait for a green light realizing that they are stupid, bad drivers.
-or more frequently-
2) Yell "I don't care!" lurch forward, and rev up the engine. That's when I move so I don't get run over as they shoot through the intersection like sociopathic maniacs with no regard for safety or the law.
This game I play is supremely satisfying. But have I gone too far in taking the law into my own hands?
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.
If there is no right turn only lane, I'd stay in front of them even if RTOR is allowed. If there was a car in front of them waiting to go straight, they'd also have to wait.
nova
If there is no right turn only lane, I'd stay in front of them even if RTOR is allowed. If there was a car in front of them waiting to go straight, they'd also have to wait.
If right on red is allowed and if the lane is wide enough i just scoot over and let em go. No point in hindering trafic. More often than not i get a thanks few times ive had people stop ask if i needed some water and had one handed to me. One realy nice lady (big cycling area where i was at the time) bought me lunch once last year when she seen me again at a mc donolds gettign lunch.
I find this is just something I can do to improve relations with drivers. Now if its no turn on red right/strait lane they can wait im not going to move so they can brun the red light that is unless thees a cop back there and they are acting like a total jerk.
Eli_Damon
2) Yell "I don't care!" lurch forward, and rev up the engine.
That's two traffic violations at the same time. Turning right on red where it is prohibited and passing someone who is stopped at an intersection.
Wogsterca
I have to admit I'm a bit of a jerk sometimes. However, I may now be crossing the line. Ever since I nearly got murdered by someone turning right on a red light when he shouldn't have [he blamed me, of course], I've been taking the law into my own hands.
Whenever I wait at a red light, I make a point to get into the way of drivers trying to turn right when there is a "NO TURN ON RED" sign clearly posted. I just sit there in front of them. Everyone reacts the same exact way: First they inch forward. Then they politely honk. I point to the "no turn on red" sign and the red light. Then they honk some more. I point to the sign again. Then they open their window and yell "Get the f--k out of the way! I'm turning!" Pointing to the sign once more I say, "No right turn on red."
What I do is go LEFT, directly behind any cars waiting to go through the light, this is far enough that someone who really wants to turn right on the red, permitted or not, can do so. Once the light turns green, I drift back to the right so I am in my original track by the time I get to the other side. Often I am half way through the light before the car drivers waiting, get going anyway:D . Reduces the opportunities to get right hooked:eek:
My take, if you want to break the law, by turning right on a red light where it is not permitted, that is your choice, you are the one who has to deal with the constable who gives you the ticket:p .
Usetacould
If there is no right turn only lane, I'd stay in front of them even if RTOR is allowed. If there was a car in front of them waiting to go straight, they'd also have to wait.
I think we have found one of the reasons folks in cars try to kill us.
soda
Do you drive the speed limit in the fast lane too feeling satisfied with the line of 10 cars behind you? Don't be self-righteous.
SamHouston
If there's "no right turn" posted I don't move for anything, but then again I don't acknowledge cars behind me trying to get by to turn illegally, no acknowledgement, no pointless confrontation with strangers. I'm not a cop so enforcing the law isn't my thing & obeying it (waiting for a green light to proceed through the intersection) doesn't require any special effort.
If a right turn on red is allowed, it is allowed. I'm not a vigilante so trying to force my hurt feelings, due to an unrelated past incident, on others with unlawful acts (obstruction) isn't my thing and being to the left or right enough for someone to make a safe right turn doesn't require any special effort. If there is no room for both turning traffic and myself the question doesn't come up, does it?
Roody
Anything that slows down cars is fine by me. Just be careful.
bmclaughlin807
I don't understand why I should ever HAVE to get out of the way so some jackass can break the law. Just like if I'm driving my truck the speed limit in a school zone, and some idiot is behind me honking. I usually stop. *shrugs*
unkchunk
What's up with the city of Boston? Do they have excess cash and no need for the easy No RTOR money? I don't think I've ever seen anyone violate a No Right Turn on Red intersection here.
SamHouston
They set up traps for No RTOR violators here in several places on a very regular basis. Extremely lucrative and successful in getting drivers attention. Our downtown core would be much worse if folk could turn right all willy nilly, as it is the flow isn't too bad.
Lamplight
That's not going too far at all, IMO. The sign says "right turn on red only". The light is red...you're not turning...they have no reasonable complaint.
donnamb
OP: My friend, if you feel it worth the risk to yourself, go for it. I salute you and any attempt to curtail chaos at those places of danger to cyclists that are known as intersections.
MasterHalco
What's up with the city of Boston? Do they have excess cash and no need for the easy No RTOR money? I don't think I've ever seen anyone violate a No Right Turn on Red intersection here.
Also seen by me in Boston:
-Many, many people making LEFT turns on red lights causing collisions. Left turns on red???? WTF?!
-The infamous "Boston Left" where a car darts left in the face of incoming traffic as the light turns green without yielding the right of way to oncoming traffic. Sometimes multiple cars in multiple lanes will do this. That's quite a site.
-A water battle thrown out a window hitting another car. When confronted by the victim, me, and other witnesses the response wasn't "I'm sorry" or even "It wasn't me." It was "I didn't hit your car."
-An off-duty cop actually assaulting and battering me with his car after I yelled at him for "accidently" hitting me as he passed. "I'm a cop! Get the F--k out of the way!"
-First stopping at a red light. Then going through it. Me: "Hey man, you just went through a red light back there." Them: "F--k you!"
-A guy driving over a 2-lane bridge on the wrong side of the road towards me. Guess his response when I (and the six cars behind me) refused to get out of his way (we couldn't...it's a bridge...nowhere to go except the water, retard). You guessed it: "F--k you!"
-My favorite: Cars waiting politely in front of an intersection in heavy traffic even when they have a green light to avoid clogging the intersection if they get stuck in the middle when it turns red...Then when it turns red they go from polite, to idiot, floor the gas and get stuck in the intersection anyway causing the same gridlock they were trying to prevent 6 seconds ago. WTFBBQ??!!
Boston ranked #1 in in having the most ignorant drivers. It also ranked #1 in the most predictable drivers. That means that although no one in Boston knows the law you can, at least, always expect them to break it. Back me up Bostonians.
MasterHalco
If there's "no right turn" posted I don't move for anything, but then again I don't acknowledge cars behind me trying to get by to turn illegally, no acknowledgement, no pointless confrontation with strangers. I'm not a cop so enforcing the law isn't my thing & obeying it (waiting for a green light to proceed through the intersection) doesn't require any special effort.
I tried the non-confrontational approach like you. When someone gets out of the car and shoves you down, you realize it's better to tell them "No RTOR" while they are still sitting down with the door closed. Then, if they try to assault you, just slip aside and let it go. Trying to make an idiot realize he's an idiot can be sooooo impossible sometimes.
If a right turn on red is allowed, it is allowed. I'm not a vigilante so trying to force my hurt feelings, due to an unrelated past incident, on others with unlawful acts (obstruction) isn't my thing and being to the left or right enough for someone to make a safe right turn doesn't require any special effort. If there is no room for both turning traffic and myself the question doesn't come up, does it?
I'm not obstructing anything. If it's "No RTOR" I'm merely obeying the law and indicating to them that they should do so as well. If a right turn is allowed on red they are welcome to take it; I won't stand in their way.
unkchunk
Dam, that sucks MasterHalco. Boston needs to start generating revenue from traffic citations. I know that MA drivers are supposed to be bad, but left on red lights is out of control. Maybe the cops here get a commission on fines. I just know they will pull people over when cars turn right on red when posted not to. Then they get the open door to check for proof of insurance and to search the vehicle, that's when the big money kicks in. It's strange, people here will blow through stops signs, but respect the posted no right turn on red.
Flamingmb
I think we have found one of the reasons folks in cars try to kill us.
why? because we were doing the LEGAL thing. Shut up unless you have a intelligent comment.
Flamingmb
I tried the non-confrontational approach like you. When someone gets out of the car and shoves you down, you realize it's better to tell them "No RTOR" while they are still sitting down with the door closed. Then, if they try to assault you, just slip aside and let it go. Trying to make an idiot realize he's an idiot can be sooooo impossible sometimes.
I'm not obstructing anything. If it's "No RTOR" I'm merely obeying the law and indicating to them that they should do so as well. If a right turn is allowed on red they are welcome to take it; I won't stand in their way.
you do the right thing, dont let anyone tell you that you should concede to cars and just turn the other cheek. Its that kind of mentality that encourages the motorists to keep abusing cyclist because they know they can get away with it. If you dont back down that tells them that you are not willing to take their crap and that motorists can walk all over cyclists. If a motorists pulls something and they A) either get the cops paying them a visit, or B) getting into a fight with a cyclists wherein I would pull out the pepper spray, this will make them think twice about trying to act better or belittle a cyclists.
trackhub
What's up with the city of Boston? Do they have excess cash and no need for the easy No RTOR money? I don't think I've ever seen anyone violate a No Right Turn on Red intersection here.
Boston, and eastern Massachusetts in general, have what many believe are the most rude, agitated, defiant, and deadly drivers in the nation. Why is this? No one knows really. It has been the subject of studies from lots of entities, from the federal department of transportation, to the grey beards of Harvard.
The ususal list of suspects include: A poor street layout. Some say they simply paved over cow paths that were used back in colonial times. Most modern cities follow a grid of streets that are layed out in straight lines, and meet at right angles. Too many cars and people, crammed into too small an area. Pedestrians who just don't care. Peds around here will walk in front of anything, a speeding car, tanker truck, cyclist, anything at all. There has not been a ticket for jaywalking issued in this state for more than fifty years. Traffic law enforcement that is, shall we say, not so good. Plus, lots of wealthy people around here, all with high-powered lawyers. They can buy their way out of anything. A simple traffic citation means nothing to them. It seems that the only law enforcement the MA motorist fears is the State police. To actually lose a license permenantly in this state takes a lot.
With all of this, toss in the All-American attitude of "Nobody tells ME what to do!!", and you've got quite a mix.
Masterhalco, any chance some of the intersections you go through are under surveillance? (cameras mounted up high on the poles?)
Tom Stormcrowe
I tried the non-confrontational approach like you. When someone gets out of the car and shoves you down, you realize it's better to tell them "No RTOR" while they are still sitting down with the door closed. Then, if they try to assault you, just slip aside and let it go. Trying to make an idiot realize he's an idiot can be sooooo impossible sometimes.
A can of HALT™ does wonders to prevent an assault! Thing is, they better be in the process of taking a swing before you use it! Nonlethal and quite sufficient for a deterrent. (Had to get that in before one of the gun pic posters got one in here!)
sentinel4675
It's funny how so many just can't wait to agitate some stupid jerk in a car into a confrontation. Not sure who has the bigger problem.
sauerwald
What's up with the city of Boston? Do they have excess cash and no need for the easy No RTOR money? I don't think I've ever seen anyone violate a No Right Turn on Red intersection here.
One of the things that makes Boston unique is that it used to be illegal in the city to make a right turn on any red. Some federal program made them change the law, and P'ed off bureaucrats decided to just put 'No turn on red' signs at virtually all intersections. In most cities, when you see a NRTOR sign, it usually makes sense and you obey it. In Boston, the signs are up at many intersections where they shouldn't be. To make matters worse, the way that the streets are layed out in Boston encourages drivers to break minor laws like this. As an example there are many RTO or LTO lanes, which are marked only on the pavement, so that in heavy traffic (always and everywhere except for between 3 & 5AM in some isolated places) you can't see that you are in a RTO lane until it is impossible to legally change lanes. This, along with really poor road maintenence leads to Boston being a really stressful place to drive - or ride.
LittleBigMan
I can be a lot like the original poster when it comes to being ornery towards drivers who endanger me. I also really don't like it when drivers speed, run stops, etc., because I know it makes it more unsafe for me out there. But a cool head is important.
I think my own safety is the main thing. If I hold up a motorist, that's ok, if it's for my safety. If I move out of a motorist's way because he's threatening me with his vehicle, that's ok too, I'll let him past (as I get the tag number.)
va_cyclist
What you're doing is called passive-aggressive behavior. It's just a milder form of road rage, imposing your will on other users of the road. I'm not saying that's bad, necessarily. I do basically the same thing when driving through my 25-mph neighborhood -- I make it a point to drive precisely 25 mph and come to a complete stop at every stop sign, which infuriates at least two-thirds of the cars who get caught behind me. Tough cookies -- my kids play in this neighborhood.
nova
Im one of the first to tell you that i wont tolerate idiotic things from drivers. Im the type of person who if you attack me you best drop me on your first hit cause you wont get a secound chance at it. Im not a big guy at all but i know how to put you on the ground in a hurry. But i also wont hold up trafic if i do not need to.
Now if you want to blow a red light on no turn on red ill make sure to point to the sign and the stop light camera. If you still want to blow the light go right ahead and do it ill move right over for you if i can. Hey its not my money your blowing on the ticket your going to get in the mail a few days later.
Corse in my area its not to unuseal to see some city guy stickign up a no turnon red sign where there was none previously. Ive had drivers i pointed the signs out to go when the f did the city put that crap up?
One year i sware to god one day no turn on red next gone next day no turn on red. This went on for about 3 weeks strait. Every day there was a notr sign there would be a cop sitting close by.
This was when we had the ever so popular mayre in norton who on the last week of his term had about 50 signs put up/changed with mayer so and so welcomes you to norton. Needless to say he never got re elected. For some reason i can not remember that morons name now.
As far as holding up trafic for no good reason is concerned i think its foolish and makes us all look bad. Generaly when turn on red is legal the out side lane is very wide and a bike and car can easly share the lane side by side. Heck ive seen them so wide 2 small cars could squeeze in to the lane. So why hold up trafic? All your doing by doing this is re enforcing the notion cyclists dont belong on the roads.
Where safty is concerned if needed then by all means hold your place and wait other wise let the motorist pass you.
nova
grr double posted sorry bout that
brokenrobot
It's funny how so many just can't wait to agitate some stupid jerk in a car into a confrontation. Not sure who has the bigger problem.
As a police officer, would you like to explain how a cyclist obeying the law consititutes "agitating" a driver?
John E
In the best jury briefing I ever received, the judge told us that we obligated to provide both a fair trial and the appearance of a fair trial. I readily "obstruct" traffic when doing so enhances my personal safety, but I go out of my way to avoid doing so at other times. If a right turn on red is permitted, I move leftward and/or forward enough to permit right turners to squeeze by. However, even if a right turn on red is prohibited, I do the same thing, secretly hoping that a cop is lurking somewhere to nab the miscreant.
FLBandit
Well, I must confess to a passive aggressive streak myself, but I tend to take into account the danger to myself. Stopped, on a bike, in front of an increasingly aggitated driver is not a good place to be.
AshevilleFusion
Somewhere over the last few years it finally dawned on me that I don't have to be the one who sees to it that Wrongdoers Receive The Just Consequences Of Their Behavior. Sooner or later it'll happen anyway, so I leave confrontation/enforcement to those who have an appetite for it. For some, the adrenaline of "confrontation plus righteousness" is manageable (or possibly addictive...), but whenever I slip into it I always wish afterward that I hadn't.
Besides, sometimes people do have a need to get somewhere in a hurry, and I have no way of telling 'em apart from the others. And I never have the whole picture, even though I might be sure it's slam-dunk clear. What if I get all p***ed off at somebody who turns out, in the moment, to be just as reactive as me? How far will it escalate? And how about the rageaholic who takes the confrontation out on his wife and kids later instead of on the cyclist? Just too much bad mojo for me to mess with - what looks like a "quick fix" to me is apt to have consequences all out of proportion to the incident itself.
All this is just my $.02 but thought it might be useful... or not :)
- Dave
SamHouston
I tried the non-confrontational approach like you. When someone gets out of the car and shoves you down, you realize it's better to tell them "No RTOR" while they are still sitting down with the door closed. Then, if they try to assault you, just slip aside and let it go. Trying to make an idiot realize he's an idiot can be sooooo impossible sometimes.
I'm not obstructing anything. If it's "No RTOR" I'm merely obeying the law and indicating to them that they should do so as well. If a right turn is allowed on red they are welcome to take it; I won't stand in their way.
I've found it's much harder for a person, even an agitated one, to assualt or otherwise engage someone who by all appearences doesn't even know they are there. Any communication no matter how justified or polite is a provocation to someone who is already agitated.
My second paragraph was more about Randya who admits he does obstruct for whatever reason.
FLBandit
Besides, sometimes people do have a need to get somewhere in a hurry, and I have no way of telling 'em apart from the others...
- Dave
Good point. Two years ago I broke my back and my wife drove me to the hospital. I doubt she stopped at any signs. You never know why someone is in such a hurry. I'd hate to be the one in the way when a sick kid is laying in the back seat.
slowandsteady
But have I gone too far in taking the law into my own hands?
As I see it, you really aren't taking the law into your own hands. You are just some guy who is sitting at a red light waiting for it to turn green. You are being helpful in pointing out what should be obvious. Even if there is a RTOR, this does not mean you HAVE to turn on red, it means you MAY turn on red if it is safe. There is nothing illegal about sitting at a red light and then turning on the green. It IS illegal to run down another vehicle in front of you to that you can turn on a red light.
SamHouston
Nope, no emergency driving, there are systems in place for that, staffed by trained professionals. You're lucky, had your wife been t-boned ignoring a traffic posting not only would a stranger possibly have been injured, but also your wife, and you, a nice sharp impact to an already broken back spells spinal cord injury.
As for people who are "in a hurry" I can tell you from my experiences as a professional driver & biker that the fastest way to anyplace is not "in a hurry". Everytime.
genec
Besides, sometimes people do have a need to get somewhere in a hurry, and I have no way of telling 'em apart from the others.
Most of the time "being in a hurry" is just bad planning by folks.
However, if someone honestly has an emergency situation... all they have to do is turn on that little switch in their car that flashes all the lights. It is an amazing device that is quite similar to that other little switch that flashes the lights only on one side of the car that I see used all too infrequently.
Flashing the headlights and honking the horn and turning on the emergency flashers (note the name "emergency flashers") all work to convey an actual emergency.
Being impatient because you are 10 minutes late for a dinner appointment however is NOT an emergency.
I-Like-To-Bike
Even if there is a RTOR, this does not mean you HAVE to turn on red, it means you MAY turn on red if it is safe. There is nothing illegal about sitting at a red light and then turning on the green.
That legality of being an oblivious road slug must explain the drivers who won't turn right on red despite it being legal, no conflicting traffic and a dozen motorists behind blowing their horns. Probably also explains those who drive 35mph in 55 zones or stay in the left lane for miles on end just doing the speed limit while a zillion cars backup behind and/or pass the "lawful" motorist from every possible angle. They are "right" and everybody else is wrong. OK, got it.
krazygluon
2) Yell "I don't care!" lurch forward, and rev up the engine. That's when I move so I don't get run over as they shoot through the intersection like sociopathic maniacs with no regard for safety or the law.
This game I play is supremely satisfying. But have I gone too far in taking the law into my own hands?
No...its not even taking the law into your own hands...its following the law, plain and simple. Common sense and eyeballs reveal most of those "no turn on red" signs are there because of a visibility hazard (i.e. there's a good reason for most of them)
personally, I'd say f**k'em and don't move if they take option 2. If they hit you get the license or make them stay around and make sure the officer understands the extent to which they chose to maliciously break the law. if they hit you hard enough to cause an injury you're sufficiently far into the right of the law that you can practically ruin their lives. (and if they're being enough of a dick to run an NTOR with a car in front of them they just about deserve it)
Taking the law into your hands would be finding some kind of violent method of dealing with all those people who don't know what turn signals are...I'm increasingly tempted to do this myself.
sentinel4675
broken, if you don't understand what agitating is going on, I won't waste my time. I guess you don't understand that some battles are best left unfought. Many just don't seem to understand to just let some of these goofs screw themselves, break the law and get a ticket. Quit worrying about everyone else and worry about you.
brokenrobot
broken, if you don't understand what agitating is going on, I won't waste my time. I guess you don't understand that some battles are best left unfought. Many just don't seem to understand to just let some of these goofs screw themselves, break the law and get a ticket. Quit worrying about everyone else and worry about you.
So when you arrive at a red light and the guy behind you starts honking because he wants to run it, you run it to get out of his way? As a po9lice officer, do you advocate others doing the same?
HardyWeinberg
Also seen by me in Boston:
-Many, many people making LEFT turns on red lights causing collisions. Left turns on red???? WTF?!
Boston is the craziest place on earth for driving. Well, in NA. I'm a native, and I pretty much can't handle it anymore. I haven't tried Rome, but I absolutely loved the autostrada and everywhere else in Italy. Talk about 'stay right except to pass', they really know how to do it. I hear some Caribbean islands can be pretty scary.
Back to left on red, it freaks me out, but that's allowed here, and many other places, when you're going onto a one-way street (maybe it's only allowed from the left if it's a 2 lane one-way, so you can take the left lane and somebody facing you could go right on red into the right lane).
But, because you're talking Boston, I assume you're not talking about left onto a one-way.
sgtsmile
Pick your battles carefully, lest we have another "dead right" cyclist. You see, you never know who you are dealing with. I fail to see what the fuss is about. If you are going straight, and a person comes up behind you to turn right, legal or not, shift left in the lane and let them by. Why do you care if they get a ticket? And another thing, if you are going straight through in the curb lane, your lane position should be such that you cannot get into conflict with a person turning right unless they ram you since you will be center in the lane and they can not fit to your left. If you are paying attention, ramming should not happen as you will move left and left them pass....
sentinel4675
broken,
I did not recommend running the light because of the person behind you. If I was in a car, I'd stay still. If I was on a bike, I'd pull out of the way. The driver is a lot less likely to ram a car than a bike. There also is a time to consider if remaining in front would put you in danger from an aggressive driver.
sentinel4675
Sgt, nice post.
Da Tinker
For me, the practice put forth by the OP makes sense.
On one level, you are encouraging (perhaps forcing) drivers to obey the law & drive safer. On another level, you are letting them know that you are knowledgeable, legal user of the road.
Both are good things
sgtsmile
Regarding left on red: In ontario at least, you may make a left on a red (similar to making a right on red) from a one way street to another one way street. That is the only circumstance where this is allowed. Think about it, and you will see why it works.
slowandsteady
That legality of being an oblivious road slug must explain the drivers who won't turn right on red despite it being legal, no conflicting traffic and a dozen motorists behind blowing their horns. Probably also explains those who drive 35mph in 55 zones or stay in the left lane for miles on end just doing the speed limit while a zillion cars backup behind and/or pass the "lawful" motorist from every possible angle. They are "right" and everybody else is wrong. OK, got it.
The sheer mass of a lot of wrong people, doesn't make them right.
By the way, 35 in a 55 is NOT legal without flashers on.
I-Like-To-Bike
By the way, 35 in a 55 is NOT legal without flashers on.
Since when on a regular road or a road with no posted minimum speed?
bbonnn
Does the driving culture in Boston imply that if you're not turning right, you shouldn't be in the right lane?Would a car get honked at or nudged?
Ideally, in my area, I'd move to the left of the right lane, allowing enough room for right-turners to pass. For some reason, I have trouble gauging how much room a car needs. I don't always do it right, and have to pick up my bike and shift (without crowding the car in the next lane iver). Legally, I don't have to do it, but it's a nice thing to do and reduces stress for everybody involved.
baiskeli
What's up with the city of Boston? Do they have excess cash and no need for the easy No RTOR money? I don't think I've ever seen anyone violate a No Right Turn on Red intersection here.
unkchunk
I've almost been run down multiple times when I was crossing (walking) at a crosswalk when I clearly have the Walk sign. Last one was by an MBTA bus.
Drivers here are just rude and agressive. My pet peeve is when drivers come to a crosswalk at a red light and stop on the crosswalk or slowly creep foward while people are crossing. I just came back from San Francisco where I was positively SHOCKED at people actually stopping at crosswalks and generally following the law.
IMHO Boston has the rudest drivers I have ever met (rude to pedestrians, cyclists and other drivers)