There is another active thread on Right Turn on Red going on in which some of this is touched on, but something that happened to me on my commute home last night is making me think about how I position myself laterally on the roadway.

On intersections where the right lane allows traffic to either proceed straight, or to turn right, when I am the first at the intersection I position myself such that if a car wants to make a right turn on red, they can get by to the right of my bicycle. Last night,I am doing just this, at a relatively busy intersection, when a black escalade creeps up to my right, I assume to make a right turn - as they approach the limit line, the light turns green, and the car proceeds straight, moving to the left to recenter herself in the lane, and pushing me further to the left, allowing another car to pass me on the right before I was able to assert myself as being clearly in the right hand lane.

I can avoid this by positioning myself to block any and all traffic approaching the intersection behind me, but this seems to be obnoxious to those drivers who do want to make a right on red.

Any thoughts (silly question with this group)?

if theres a car 'creeping' up on my right in a wide lane at a stop, i am going to be very wary of a jackrabbit driver. I try to manuver into primary pole position out of a stop light by 'reading the cross signals' but this is by no means infallable.

its a quantum quandry zone between helping drivers turn right, and preventing jackrabbits on right.

At stops, I take up as much room as possible, asserting my control over the lane. Once the light turns, or I go past the stop sign, I then move over. I like to think of stop signs and lights, as no passing zones. How confident are you that a driver can slide past you at a light to turn right on a red? I am afraid I'll get hit by a mirror or something. But then I also split lanes at stop lights i.e. ride to the front of the line at stop lights, last place I want to be is at the end of a line at a stop light where some idiot will run up on me and hit me. I can here it now " Officer, I didn't even see him" as the ambulance approaches.

I remember a thread on the identical issue/question a year or two ago. Maybe it was in the commuter forum. At any rate, I have the following comments/suggestions.


if you pay attention, you can usually figure out if they're planning on turning right or passing you on the right and continuing to go straight. Looking back to check out their faces and to make eye contact can be very helpful for this, , as well to make sure you're humanized in their minds. Also, looking at their front wheels can help.
It's really not a big deal when they do it.
usually there is a sweet spot that makes it clear you're allowing right turners to pass you on the right, but not through traffic. If you move left of that sweet spot, then you're just staying out of the way of everyone, and they act like you're not even there.

Any thoughts (silly question with this group)?
A bigger problem in my city riding experience (at least in Phila.) is waiting at a light in the first lane left of a right turn/bus stop/parking lane. Guaranteed, someone will use the right turn lane or any available open space to go straight to pass a cyclist (or a motorist) waiting in the thru lane; at every traffic light. It is immaterial where the cyclist locates himself in the lane; if there is room to the left or right, legal or not impatient motorists will use it to pass. Also applies to motorists using left turn only lanes to go straight through the intersection in order to gain a few places by passing. HH's mumbo jumbo voodoo is worthless in such situations.

I stop near the center of the lane like I would in my car. This indicates my intended destination. If a driver approaches behind me, I look back for a turn signal. If they signal right, and the lane is wide enough for them to pass safely if I move left, I move my bike left after they have slowed down or stopped. I make it obvious that I am doing it as a courtesy while still intending to go straight.

In similar situations I will turn around and look the driver in the eye, look at their turn signals, make it obvious I am looking for what their intentions will be. Most of the time they'll "get it" that I don't want them to do any funny business to me. I might even simply tell them what my intentions are sometimes, too.

The other thing I do, if I know the light well, is get a head start before the light is actually green so that I'm well on my way before the drivers are. Probably not quite legal, but definitely safer than becoming a sitting duck in a potentially bad situation, especially if that bad situation is caused by driver error or bad infrastructure.

I would consider these two tactics to fall under the "art of urban cycling" category, not the "VC/Forester worship" category.

The other thing I do, if I know the light well, is get a head start before the light is actually green so that I'm well on my way before the drivers are. Probably not quite legal, but definitely safer than becoming a sitting duck in a potentially bad situation, especially if that bad situation is caused by driver error or bad infrastructure.

I would consider these two tactics to fall under the "art of urban cycling" category, not the "VC/Forester worship" category.
The light jumping technique is also the safest way to handle the right lane straight through motorists that I described several posts back. I did it at lights I didn't know also, because I do know the bad habits of city drivers in a rush.

The light jumping technique is also the safest way to handle the right lane straight through motorists that I described several posts back. I did it at lights I didn't know also, because I do know the bad habits of city drivers in a rush.

Another strategy is to move a little slower, and let them go ahead with plenty of room.

When this kind of unlawful passing happens, I usually am starting near the center of the lane and have plenty of room around me to negotiate space - more than when I am in my car. Fortunately these drivers' intent is obvious before it's too late for me to avoid them by braking or, occasionally, moving a bit left.

The other thing I do, if I know the light well, is get a head start before the light is actually green so that I'm well on my way before the drivers are. Probably not quite legal, but definitely safer than becoming a sitting duck in a potentially bad situation, especially if that bad situation is caused by driver error or bad infrastructure.

I would consider these two tactics to fall under the "art of urban cycling" category, not the "VC/Forester worship" category.
I used to do that, back when I found riding in traffic to be stressful.
Once I learned better, I stopped.

On intersections where the right lane allows traffic to either proceed straight, or to turn right, when I am the first at the intersection I position myself ,normally, right where I would be if it weren't an intersection ie a comfortable distance out from the curb. The exception would be if the lane is really wide in which case I would stay further to the left, normally far enough that a car could make a right turn to the right of me.
( slightly off topic...We have an interesting intersection here with two lanes of traffic making a left turn and the right-most of those lanes also going straight. At that intersection I sit right in the middle of the right lane and block. And I stay there until I'm clear of the intersection.)
It isn't perfect 'cause cars turning right do try to get by on your left occasionally. Ok, almost always. If it's obvious that they are turning then if there's time left on the light I just let them go without changing my position. If the light is about to change then my actions would depend on whether I think they are an aggressive or passive driver. A passive driver and I would try to show my intention of moving forward through the intersection as the light changes. I don't know quite how to describe it but think eye contact, body position on the bike, jumping the light slightly etc. Most passive drivers are not trying to beat you through the intersection, they are just making a right turn on red 'cause in their minds that's what you do at a red light. If it's obvious to them that they should wait, then they will. An agressive driver wants to beat you through the intersection, couldn't care less that you were there first, and considers it only an inconvenience if you are under their car as it turns the corner, so I find it easier to let them go. I consider any driver who is using a right turn lane to jump the queue and continue straight ahead to be an aggressive driver ( and I agree, they are a big problem ). My opinion on jumping the light when you are alongside an aggresive driver is that s/he will be jumping the light too, and I don't want to be alongside them when they do.
Them's my thoughts.
Cheers, Dave

Another strategy is to move a little slower, and let them go ahead with plenty of room.
Going slower just means more illegal right side passers will see if they can get past you.

I've found there is little one can do to keep motorists from attempting to pass in these situations. My strategy is to position myself as best I can to show my intended direction and to always expect people to try and get around me illegally if they think they can fit. The worst situation I have ever been put in by a motorist doing this is having to slow down slightly. Where it really bothers me is when I am moving at full speed and a motorist decides to pass on my right using a right turn lane at full speed. Way too many things that could go wrong in that situation. I've yet to find a way to curb that action either and just ride defensively through intersections and watch my mirror.

My experience cycling in Philly is that a gap that would be 2 feet too small for a suburb driver to attempt to get through is fair game for a Philly driver. Drivers in the city are just used to cutting things closer.

On intersections where the right lane allows traffic to either proceed straight, or to turn right, when I am the first at the intersection I position myself such that if a car wants to make a right turn on red, they can get by to the right of my bicycle. Last night,I am doing just this, at a relatively busy intersection, when a black escalade creeps up to my right, I assume to make a right turn - as they approach the limit line, the light turns green, and the car proceeds straight, moving to the left to recenter herself in the lane, and pushing me further to the left, allowing another car to pass me on the right before I was able to assert myself as being clearly in the right hand lane.
The only time this has happened to me is in a similar situation to what the OP describes - the motorist approaches as the light turns green or is about to turn green.

A bigger problem in my city riding experience (at least in Phila.) is waiting at a light in the first lane left of a right turn/bus stop/parking lane. Guaranteed, someone will use the right turn lane or any available open space to go straight to pass a cyclist (or a motorist) waiting in the thru lane; at every traffic light.
I can imagine this is also most likely to happen when the light has turned green or about to turn green. Otherwise a motorist waiting at a red light to go straight in a right turn only lane (for example) will have to deal with the horn honks, etc., from the other motorists.

I do the same. The driver has to stop behind me and then I will move over if I feel it is safe for me and the light will stay red for a significant amount of time.

I'm experimenting with this situation myself. I tend to to pull up into the crosswalk but in the middle of the lane. There's enough room for cars to turn right, but nobody going straight can pass me.

Two problems with this, though:

1) This is the Bay Area, where people ACTUALLY STOP at the first crosswalk line, if not a little before it. Nowhere else have I ever witnessed this.

2) When you pull into the crosswalk, you risk pissing off (or to put it nicely, obstructing) pedestrians. That ain't cool. Depending on the ped, I think it can be mitigated by saying hi and smiling, or at least acknowledging you see the peds and aren't just blocking the crosswalk oblivio-style.

As for the Mlle. F'quetarde in the Escalade ... let's hope they're a rare exception.

i used to 'hop the lights' more than i do now, but did it right in front of a motorcycle cop once and he pulled me over.

however, i 'read the cross signals', treat the traffic light like a skijump timing christmas tree, clip in and stand just prior to the greens, and dont move into the intersection until a) the light goes green and b)cross traffic has cleared. as soon as this is good, i put the hammer down.

even giving drivers the fairness of the traffic signal, the weight/ hp/ torque disparities between bikes and gashuffers is readily apparant as i clear a half to two full city blocks, often, before traffic catches up. i'm talking like a quarter mile in front sometimes, even on a 35 mph 4 laner.....


i can't make hide nor hair of helmet heads comments cars cutting him off with a jackrabbit start and violating his lane position 'isn't that big of a deal?' why is that, are you off in the gutter so it doesn't affect your line, helmie....or do you mean you find traffic close passing you on the right relaxing now, so this doesn't let cars creep up on your right and try to pass you at the lights?

I stop near the center of the lane like I would in my car. This indicates my intended destination. If a driver approaches behind me, I look back for a turn signal. If they signal right, and the lane is wide enough for them to pass safely if I move left, I move my bike left after they have slowed down or stopped. I make it obvious that I am doing it as a courtesy while still intending to go straight.

This pretty much sums up my approach. If they don't signal, I don't move over. When I do move over, I'll sometimes wave/signal them to move up and turn if it's clear, especially if they seem hesitant. The intersection I do this most often is a bit narrow, so if it's sa big ass Escalade I'll usually stay put.

Another strategy is to move a little slower, and let them go ahead with plenty of room.



I tend to do this... and use my pace to time my approach at lights so that I may not be the exact head of the line, but right after the jack rabbits.

I also stop behind traffic rather than filter forward... I have found very little reward in filtering forward.

A bigger problem in my city riding experience (at least in Phila.) is waiting at a light in the first lane left of a right turn/bus stop/parking lane. Guaranteed, someone will use the right turn lane or any available open space to go straight to pass a cyclist (or a motorist) waiting in the thru lane; at every traffic light. It is immaterial where the cyclist locates himself in the lane; if there is room to the left or right, legal or not impatient motorists will use it to pass. Also applies to motorists using left turn only lanes to go straight through the intersection in order to gain a few places by passing. HH's mumbo jumbo voodoo is worthless in such situations.

I think this sums up the situation with dedicated lanes at traffic lights these days (at least in largish cities). Drivers will use right turn lanes, shoulders, and left turn lanes to get around the autos, bikes, busses, that are "in their way" and proceed straight. I've seen people do it in front of police cruisers with no penalties, so I guess it's yet another motor vehicle law that is not to be enforced. As a bicyclist it is best to let these bozos do their thing and get in front of you, else, if they were to strike you, well yup you guessed it, yet another motor vehicle law that won't be enforced, i.e. murder.

In a similar vein, I saw a driver cut off a police cruiser, turning left in front of the cruiser going straight, all the police officer did was honk at them. What am I paying those guys for again?

It is immaterial where the cyclist locates himself in the lane; if there is room to the left or right, legal or not impatient motorists will use it to pass.
There is really nothing I can do to force a motorist to do the smart thing. We can never depend on anyone to always do the right thing. I believe that being predictable and visible, and cycling defensively, will work best for me.

I don't do the light-jumping thing because I almost got hit by a fast-moving motorist from my left who was thinking along the same lines. Around here, I expect there to be someone whose yellow light becomes red before they cross the intersection.

The light jumping technique is also the safest way to handle the right lane straight through motorists that I described several posts back. I did it at lights I didn't know also, because I do know the bad habits of city drivers in a rush.

Freelancing like that can help a bit, but it can also put the rider afoul of other road users who are attempting to use that gray area in the signal cycle to their own advantage. I'm thinking of the hyper left-turners who try to jump the light and turn illegally in front of a long line of cars; the hyper right-turners coming from the cyclist's right who want to make an illegal rolling right-turn-on-red rather than wait for a long line of cars to pass; and those pedal-stomping light-runners who decide to gun it through a pinkish orangish red light while everybody else is coming to a gentle stop.

Robert

I'm experimenting with this situation myself. I tend to to pull up into the crosswalk but in the middle of the lane. There's enough room for cars to turn right, but nobody going straight can pass me.

Two problems with this, though:

1) This is the Bay Area, where people ACTUALLY STOP at the first crosswalk line, if not a little before it. Nowhere else have I ever witnessed this.

2) When you pull into the crosswalk, you risk pissing off (or to put it nicely, obstructing) pedestrians. That ain't cool. Depending on the ped, I think it can be mitigated by saying hi and smiling, or at least acknowledging you see the peds and aren't just blocking the crosswalk oblivio-style.

...

I do this frequently at intersections with little or no pedestrian activity. I can simultaneously position myself to accommodate right turns on red, to block through overtaking on my right*, and to align myself with the bike lane or shoulder on the far side of the intersection. I also follow Diane's suggestion of looking back, making eye contact, and gesturing that I am looking for an indication of intended trajectory.

____
* Fortunately, I have been "right throughed" only twice in 100k miles / 160k km of cycling.

Freelancing like that can help a bit, but it can also put the rider afoul of other road users who are attempting to use that gray area in the signal cycle to their own advantage.
It goes without saying that running lights/freelancing safely requires assuring that the intersection is free enough of approaching traffic to clear the intersection without causing anyone else to alter their speed/direction. I'll let the drama queens fret and carryon about about the horror of not complying with the letter of the traffic code.

* Fortunately, I have been "right throughed" only twice in 100k miles / 160k km of cycling.
You obviously have not been cycling in the East in the large cities. Why I bet you even see motorists stop midblock to let pedestrians cross the street. Sure to cause a rear end collision/road rage incident if tried in the East.

Sometimes I will wait for a light way back from the crosswalk with one foot on the curb (so I don't have to dismount or balance). Far enough back that anybody who wants to can go ahead and make their rights on red way up ahead. Then when the light turns green, I've got a lot of room to gather my momentum again so that by the time I reach the intersection, it's as if it were a green light all along for me.

There is another active thread on Right Turn on Red going on in which some of this is touched on, but something that happened to me on my commute home last night is making me think about how I position myself laterally on the roadway.

On intersections where the right lane allows traffic to either proceed straight, or to turn right, when I am the first at the intersection I position myself such that if a car wants to make a right turn on red, they can get by to the right of my bicycle. Last night,I am doing just this, at a relatively busy intersection, when a black escalade creeps up to my right, I assume to make a right turn - as they approach the limit line, the light turns green, and the car proceeds straight, moving to the left to recenter herself in the lane, and pushing me further to the left, allowing another car to pass me on the right before I was able to assert myself as being clearly in the right hand lane.

I can avoid this by positioning myself to block any and all traffic approaching the intersection behind me, but this seems to be obnoxious to those drivers who do want to make a right on red.

Any thoughts (silly question with this group)?

Something similar to this happened to me today. I was not-quite first at a red light -- one or two cars were passing me just as we approached the light (the lane was wide enough and I was riding near the curb). So I stopped at the light beside the first car, which was presumably going straight. A car approaches behind me in the parking 'lane', honks, I assume he wants to turn right, so I move forward and left and wave for him to pass. He hesitates, so to make room, I actually pull into the crosswalk, in front of the first car (I'd already made eye contact with the driver, and the light was still safely red). He pulls forward slowly, and explains that he was just dropping people off. I guess he was trying to pull up to the intersection from the parking lane, rather than waiting for traffic to clear. Or maybe he pulled forward because I waved him to; I don't know why he honked, then. I say "are you going straight", he says "yes" just as the light turns green, so I say "go ahead", and as soon as he passes I start riding and move right to let the cars behind me pass.

Next time I'll look for a turn signal before moving over or waving somebody to pass on my right.

In answer to the OP, I generally try to do the same thing with lane positioning at intersections: center of the lane if I'm going straight; further left if I can let right-turners pass on the right. The case I described was unusual because the cars were passing me just as we approached the red light, and I wasn't able to reenter traffic to claim my spot in line before stopping at the light.

Sometimes I will wait for a light way back from the crosswalk with one foot on the curb (so I don't have to dismount or balance). Far enough back that anybody who wants to can go ahead and make their rights on red way up ahead. Then when the light turns green, I've got a lot of room to gather my momentum again so that by the time I reach the intersection, it's as if it were a green light all along for me.
For lights that are located at the bottoms of hills, I sometimes I pull over in a safe spot near the top of the hill and time the light for green so I don't have to start cold on green at the bottom.

I only have a few straight/right turn lanes that I go through on a regular basis. One is at an intersection of two busy yet narrow city streets. I aways seem to be at the front when heading towards downtown, so I sit in the middle. I don't have a problem with letting cars pass to turn right, though I prefer to step off to the right either on the curb or into the grass because the lane to the left is a left turn only lane. Its kind of pain but almost all of the drivers give a wave of thanks so thats fine with me. Kind of my way of showing that we can both exist on the streets without having to both be a complete pain in the ass to each other. I guess I'm a stickler on turn signals though, even when I'm driving, so no signal means no turn to me. No amount of honking will get me to let you pass if you don't have the blinker on. Ahhh, stubborness runs strong in the family. :D