Well at least my logic is based on crimanal bahavior patterns and the likely hood of changes in said behavior to point to potential guilty parties. Anyone who understands crimanal forensics would come to the same conclusion.
Ask far as me being a fool, you dont know me well enough to jump to that conclusion although, Einstien, Gallaleo and Bush were thought to be idiots but only one was proven to be.
Need a hint which one?

So, you take a couple of actions from someone halfway around the globe that you presumably don't witness personally and you extrapolate that into "patterns" and "criminal behavior". You sure sound like an expert on criminal forensics. I hope you never work on a case involving anyone I know. And this "said behavior" would only point to someone as a potential suspect, not prove their guilt like you were ready to do. As far as you being a fool, I never said it, you must have inferred that all on your own using your own brilliant deductive reasoning. Congratulations. And please do give me the proof that one of the 3 aforementioned people is an idiot, which is considered to be someone with an IQ of 20 or below. But, I do like the continuation of your ad hominem attacks.

Ya Floyd is guilty as hell just like those doper *******s on Astana Wurth! Oh ya they were cleared of all charges when the dust settled after being excluded from the Tour (not to mention poor Vino).....ummmm...huh....maybe we should wait till an actual name is announced or better yet till a B sample conforms the first analysis???

Shame on any of you who are ready to even tentatively point the finger at a professional athelete based on the info we have so far. If you are willing to start speculating on who is guilty of a doping violation at this point then you clearly don't have any respect for these riders at all. That disgusts me.


That's exactly it. If it weren't for the Astana thing in the last few days I'd say screw Floyd, damn cheater. But they all got cleared and a lot of people got screwed. So I will for once reserve judgement.

Well, if the press says that the French lab, run by the same folks who have been smearing Lance Armstrong, say Floyd is guilt, let's hang him. No need to wait for tests on the "B" sample. No need to send a portion of the sample to an independent lab in the USA. No need for a hearing. No need to wait to hear what Floyd has to say. Just hang him. That's how we do it here at "Bike Forums".

The police crime lab here in Houston has been under investigation for the past two years. It turns out that due to poor hiring policies, poor training, poor supervision, and general incompentence, improper procedures were followed in 20% or 30% of DNA cases. Most of the resulting mistakes had no impact on the cases. But, in a number of cases, men went to prison based on sloppy lab work. Some of those men have been freeded, but their good names have been destroyed forever. Based on lab mistakes. Based on a "justice" system that was more interested in speed than in justice.

But, this is "Bike Forums". We don't need no stinkin' hearings and don't need to give him a chance to present his side of the story. Let's hang Floyd today.

I'm gonna cry. that was the best few hours of television I think I've ever seen.
Phonak is the most screwed sponsor ever.

NEWS PHLASH:
Phloyd phast! Phinishes phirst aphter phalling phlat!

NEWS PHLASH:
Phloyd phlunks physical, phired phrom Phonak.

(Phormer phellow Phonak phlyer Tyler Hamilton was unavailable phor comment, but his website says the tests are phlawed.)

But, this is "Bike Forums". We don't need no stinkin' hearings and don't need to give him a chance to present his side of the story. Let's hang Floyd today.
Sounds good. I'll bring the rope.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c76/TequilaJoe888/Junk/pat.gif

Well, if the press says that the French lab, run by the same folks who have been smearing Lance Armstrong, say Floyd is guilt, let's hang him. No need to wait for tests on the "B" sample. No need to send a portion of the sample to an independent lab in the USA. No need for a hearing. No need to wait to hear what Floyd has to say. Just hang him. That's how we do it here at "Bike Forums".

The police crime lab here in Houston has been under investigation for the past two years. It turns out that due to poor hiring policies, poor training, poor supervision, and general incompentence, improper procedures were followed in 20% or 30% of DNA cases. Most of the resulting mistakes had no impact on the cases. But, in a number of cases, men went to prison based on sloppy lab work. Some of those men have been freeded, but their good names have been destroyed forever. Based on lab mistakes. Based on a "justice" system that was more interested in speed than in justice.

But, this is "Bike Forums". We don't need no stinkin' hearings and don't need to give him a chance to present his side of the story. Let's hang Floyd today.
Alan, I can't tell you how depressed I am about this, and how much I hope it was some freak natural spike in his testosterone that day, but I'm prepared for the worst to be confirmed, and I'll tell you why. First, the team has enough confidence in the test to say that if the B sample proves positive as well, they will let their Tour champion go. Second, have you seen the comments from his mother??? "I haven't spoken to Floyd... I know they're all tempted..." Notably missing: "I've spoken to Floyd and he has assured me he is innocent".

Let's say you've got a Mennonite Mom sitting at home wondering how you're doing while all this news is flying around about you being guilty of doping. If you're innocent, are you going to avoid calling her to assure her? If you're guilty, what would you do?

I was beginning to think getting stock in iShares might be a good idea.... not anymore!

Wasn't Santi Botero cleared of high testosterone a few years back? They were able to prove he had naturally high levels. Of course, this didn't stop him from visiting a certain spanish lab 6 years later, but I digress...

Same info was posted two places already. Don't be so hard on yourself. Just read before you post next time.

Well, if the press says that the French lab, run by the same folks who have been smearing Lance Armstrong, say Floyd is guilt, let's hang him. No need to wait for tests on the "B" sample. No need to send a portion of the sample to an independent lab in the USA. No need for a hearing. No need to wait to hear what Floyd has to say. Just hang him. That's how we do it here at "Bike Forums".

The police crime lab here in Houston has been under investigation for the past two years. It turns out that due to poor hiring policies, poor training, poor supervision, and general incompentence, improper procedures were followed in 20% or 30% of DNA cases. Most of the resulting mistakes had no impact on the cases. But, in a number of cases, men went to prison based on sloppy lab work. Some of those men have been freeded, but their good names have been destroyed forever. Based on lab mistakes. Based on a "justice" system that was more interested in speed than in justice.

But, this is "Bike Forums". We don't need no stinkin' hearings and don't need to give him a chance to present his side of the story. Let's hang Floyd today.

yes, because a vast "french conspiracy" is much more plausible than a guy who's career may be over due to an impending hip surgery deciding to risk taking something because he might not have much to lose.

As far as the B sample goes, when's the last time one of these game up negative? And I'm not counting the one which was accidentally frozen after the olympics.

I didn't respond to your original post as I didn't see it, but I would have. And I would have said that your logic is fallacious. And I still say that. You were saying that he looks guilty so he must be guilty. That's a poor argument. If he is found to be guilty then he's guilty. And then after this comes out you gloat, and when nobody takes the bait, you complain that nobody is responding. Using your logic, you look like a fool, so...

How is his logic fallacious? The OP was making an inductive argument which, by definition, does not ensure the conclusion. All he said was that Floyd's actions after the announcement was made were out of the ordinary, which raises eyebrows. Landis may very well have a perfectly good reason to have missed those two races, but it is still questionable to not let the organizers know of your withdrawal.

To no-show two events without telling the race organizers, when you know that they're anticipating the new Tour champion participating in their event, is a little odd. Especially if you just raced a crit the day before.

For cycling's sake, I hope he's clean.

For cycling's sake, I hope he's clean.
Pur-lease. Cycling is bigger than Landis and bigger than one tdf.

Does anyone know the answer to this question?

IF the second test comes back the same and Landis is fired from his team, can the TdF people take away the title and give it to second place Oscar P. instead?

Pur-lease. Cycling is bigger than Landis and bigger than one tdf.

Unfortunatly, in the USA, Landis winning the TDF is cycling for 99% of the population :(

Ya Floyd is guilty as hell just like those doper *******s on Astana Wurth! Oh ya they were cleared of all charges when the dust settled after being excluded from the Tour (not to mention poor Vino).....ummmm...huh....maybe we should wait till an actual name is announced or better yet till a B sample conforms the first analysis???

Shame on any of you who are ready to even tentatively point the finger at a professional athelete based on the info we have so far. If you are willing to start speculating on who is guilty of a doping violation at this point then you clearly don't have any respect for these riders at all. That disgusts me.

it seems like 90% of what i am reading here comes straight from a mob with extra time and rope on their collective hands. perhaps it would be wise to wait and see what the b sample produces and then wait for the additional tests to prove that landis just might be one of those guys that NATURALLY produces higher levels of testosterone? while you are waiting you can discuss the numerous ways that poor lab work and handling can screw a test up.

Does anyone know the answer to this question?

IF the second test comes back the same and Landis is fired from his team, can the TdF people take away the title and give it to second place Oscar P. instead?


I figure they will. Perhaps they would disqualify him from the stage he tested positive on, which is the stage where he made up so much time, dropping him back to bumfuk in the overall standings.

This would explain his miracle comeback and amazing ride.

i believe it would take a great deal more than doping to produce such an anomalous ride like that - maybe you've got an explanation for the previous days collapse by landis? such simplistic statements, like yours, do nothing but fan the flames.

Unfortunatly, in the USA, Landis winning the TDF is cycling for 99% of the population
He said 'cycling' not 'USA cycling'.

Pur-lease. Cycling is bigger than Landis and bigger than one tdf.

Good Point.

I should have said for the sake of North American cycling.

Does anyone know the answer to this question?

IF the second test comes back the same and Landis is fired from his team, can the TdF people take away the title and give it to second place Oscar P. instead?

It was a dope test during the tour - of course he'll lose the win if the B sample is positive. Being fired from the team is nothing. The main issue is being stripped of his title and no being able to compete for two years.

Last year Heras tested positive for EPO in the Vuelta and was stripped of his win. Menchov got the title.

I should have said for the sake of North American cycling.

Ditto:o

To no-show two events without telling the race organizers, when you know that they're anticipating the new Tour champion participating in their event, is a little odd. Especially if you just raced a crit the day before.

For cycling's sake, I hope he's clean.

Once the A sample comes up positive, he is required to stop racing. It is in the UCI regs. It isn't "a criminal behavior pattern".

Come on people. You may think he is guilty, but thinking so because he followed the regs and didn't race after his positive A sample, and because he hadn't called his Mom is a**inine.

i believe it would take a great deal more than doping to produce such an anomalous ride like that - maybe you've got an explanation for the previous days collapse by landis? such simplistic statements, like yours, do nothing but fan the flames.

Good point, but does it even matter now? This sucks. :mad:

Posted this on the other thread:

From ESPN.com:

Cycling analyst John Eustice thinks Floyd Landis' testosterone test could be a false positive. Landis' testosterone levels were low; just the ratio was off. Landis' cortisone shots or beer drinking could affect that. We should know the "B" sample result within a week, Eustice said on The Dan Patrick Show.

ok, A few things I've read (albeit today) and a few comments.

Normal testosterone to Epitestosterone ratios run between 4:1 and 6:1.
WADA recently lowered the upper limit of their acceptable ratios (could be 5.5:1 and if your 5.6:1 your guilty).
Floyd will have to prove a normal high T/E ratio to clear himself.
now, my questions. I'm guessing this is bloodwork? was this the first time he was
tested at the tour? if not what was previous t/e ratio?
Testosterone injections/patch etc. would not produce results in one day so the
alleged "doping" would have to have taken place previously.
Hmmm, was this why Phonak was so willing to give up the yellow jersey (cause
yellow jersey wearer is guaranteed to be tested).

comments.
Euro you're loving this aren't you? personally I find the whole thing a bit sad,
not that I don't believe the results nor do I believe the entire peloton is clean
but that a very enjoyable tour has been besmirched

Alan puhleez, give the french conspiracy a rest, this isn't a witch hunt and
it isn't a personal vendetta against all things (cyclists) american.

everyone else be civil (I have to go and merge about 239,566 floyd threads).

marty

that was Phunny

If..IF...yeah, they sure as hell better take away the win. Next few days should prove very interesting, perhaps more interesting than the Tour itself...

Just saw Oscar quoted on this topic.
Says it wouldn't interest him.

He said the only way you win Le Tour is on the road...any other way would just be bureaucratic and mean nothing.

Pretty class answer in a tough situation.

Once the A sample comes up positive, he is required to stop racing. It is in the UCI regs. It isn't "a criminal behavior pattern".
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he no-show those races PRIOR to the announcement that it was him who failed the test?

I'm not a Floyd- or anyone-hater, just want to know what's really going on like the rest of us.

WADA formerly had a standard for the T/E ratio for testosterone testing of 6:1. The average guy, on an average day, has a T/E ratio of around 1:1. But, among 1,000 guys, a few might have a T/E ratio of 4:1 and a rare guy might have a ratio of 5:1 or 6:1.

In 2005, WADA decided to lower the T/E standard from 6:1 to just 4:1, based on research showing that only a small percentage of men would violate the 4:1 ratio without some sort of artificial help.

Under the WADA standard, if the "A" sample exceeds the 4:1 ratio, then the "B" sample is tested. If the "B" sample also exceeds 4:1, the rider is asked to show the reason why. That reason could include that the rider's ratio was elevated by approved medication, or that the rider's own natural ratio sometime exceeds 4:1. If the rider does not provide an explanation for a ratio over 4:1, then he is deemed to have failed the test, and he is subject to discipline, and the results of the tests are made public.

In this case, the results of the Landis test was provided to the Times of London by someone "close" to the lab before the results were given to Landis and Landis allowed to respond. This is the same lab castigated recently for illegally giving confidential information about Lance Armstrong to the French press. When the lab got caught in the Armstrong case, they suspended an employee, and claimed the lab would clean up its act. Well, it looks like the lab needs a bigger broom.

Conspiracy? The Houston police lab was recently found to have been botching DNA tests that resulted in innocent men going to prison. It was just incompetence. But, amazingly, when the lab made an error, the error usually resulted in a "positive" for the exact same guy that the police had designated as the prime suspect. Given that there are over a million men in Houston, what were the odds of THAT happening? Naw...conspiracy theories are just silly...

Posted this on the other thread:

From ESPN.com:

Cycling analyst John Eustice thinks Floyd Landis' testosterone test could be a false positive. Landis' testosterone levels were low; just the ratio was off. Landis' cortisone shots or beer drinking could affect that. We should know the "B" sample result within a week, Eustice said on The Dan Patrick Show.

It really could have been the beer.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=9001958&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum

In this case, the results of the Landis test was provided to the Times of London by someone "close" to the lab before the results were given to Landis and Landis allowed to respond. This is the same lab castigated recently for illegally giving confidential information about Lance Armstrong to the French press. When the lab got caught in the Armstrong case, they suspended an employee, and claimed the lab would clean up its act. Well, it looks like the lab needs a bigger broom.

Conspiracy? The Houston police lab was recently found to have been botching DNA tests that resulted in innocent men going to prison. It was just incompetence. But, amazingly, when the lab made an error, the error usually resulted in a "positive" for the exact same guy that the police had designated as the prime suspect. Given that there are over a million men in Houston, what were the odds of THAT happening? Naw...conspiracy theories are just silly...

Once again the proper procedures haven't been followed in this case. Nobody should have known didly squat about this until the B sample had been tested. Now that everyone knows who is under scrutiny, the impartiality of the testing is compromised. Just like a jury pool being polluted.

Exactly. This is a smear campaign, which makes me wonder how reliable the results really are. If this turns out to be bogus, we should bomb the lab.

Just saw Oscar quoted on this topic.
Says it wouldn't interest him.

He said the only way you win Le Tour is on the road...any other way would just be bureaucratic and mean nothing.

Pretty class answer in a tough situation.


But if offered, he probably will and should take the win. It is only fair, and rewarding in many ways.

Once again the proper procedures haven't been followed in this case. Nobody should have known didly squat about this until the B sample had been tested. Now that everyone knows who is under scrutiny, the impartiality of the testing is compromised. Just like a jury pool being polluted.

PHONAK MADE IT PUBLIC. Becasue LANDIS HAS DISSAPEARED and everyone was JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS because Landis was one of only 4 riders tested on that stage.

THERE IS NO CONSPIRACY!!

ust saw Oscar quoted on this topic.
Says it wouldn't interest him.

He said the only way you win Le Tour is on the road...any other way would just be bureaucratic and mean nothing.

Pretty class answer in a tough situation.

That's what they all say. Why? Because they all dope.

Ahhhhh EURO....

Just noticed your updated I-D tag modeled after mine.....laughed out loud at work!

thanks....

Look, the guy isn't guilty of anything right now.

Can everyone please just take a deep breath here?

....and let me bring Archie Bunker into the fold for a moment now....
That's right....from my favorite old TV show....how about we do in cycling what he suggested to do to end the hijacking problem in the 70's?

We just pass out guns to everyone as they board the jet, that way the playing field is leveled.

Let 'em all take whatever they want and race it out up the mountains.

That's what they all say. Why? Because they all dope.

So, what's your real take here? Do you accept doping as fait accompli and just enjoy bike racing as it is, or are you incensed and think the major players finally taking a fall is exactly what the 'sport' needs to cleanse itself?

Despite all of your loving comments out here to stir the pot, it's plain to see that you most likely have an intelligent opinion about pro cycling. WE know that you are a talented racer. It would be great to get a straight analysis from you.

Thoughts?

Not good. Not good at all.

Because the positive test was for the stage where Landis rode like superman, even if he manages to clear himself, there will always be doubts.

They'll eventually test everyone on the tour and find out the only clean cyclists are the ones with DNF beside their names.

Let 'em all take whatever they want and race it out up the mountains.

Yeah, it'll be like the All Drug Olympics covered by SNL back in 1988....

Dennis Miller: In response to what its sponsors claim is an idea whose time has come, the first All-Drug Olympics opened today in Bogota, Columbia. Athletes are allowed to take any substance whatsoever before, after, and even during the competition. So far, 115 world records have been shattered! We go now to correspondent Kevin Nealon, live in Bogota for the Weightlifting Finals. Kevin?

Kevin Nealon: Dennis, getting ready to lift now is Sergei Akmudov of the Soviet Union. His trainer has told me that he's taken antibolic steroids, Novacaine, Nyquil, Darvon, and some sort of fish paralyzer. Also, I believe he's had a few cocktails within the last hour or so. All of this is, of course, perfectly legal at the All-Drug Olympics, in fact it's encouraged. Akmudov is getting set now, he's going for a cleaning jerk of over 1500 pounds, which would triple the existing world record. That's an awful lot of weight, Dennis, and here he goes.

[ Kevin steps aside to reveal the steroid-bulked athlete bent over to lift the 1500 lbs. weight. Sergei tightens his grip on the barbells and pulls up, but instead of lifting the weights, his arms are pulled off and blood squirts ferociously out of his pulpy stubs.

Kevin Nealon: Oh! He pulled his arms off! He's pulled his arms off, that's gotta be disappointing to the big Russian! [ Sergei's trainer wraps a towel around him ] You know, you hate to see something like this happen, Dennis! He probably doesn't have that much pain right now, but I think tomorrow he's really gonna feel that, Dennis! Back to you!
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/88/pics/88aupdate3.jpg

It really could have been the beer.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=9001958&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum

"High doses of alcohol increase urinary testosterone-to-epitestosterone ratio in females."

You callin Floyd a girlyman? ;)

How many beers did he have the night before anyway? Hard to believe it was a "high dose".

If he's found guilty - he loses the title and is banned from the tour for a while.

Not guilty - well, he still rode like superman on that stage, so there will always be lingering doubts.

Sad. I like Landis, but no matter what the outcome, he loses something.

Here we go again another 2-3 years of lies accusations incriminations and pure gossip

This thread in 6 months will prob be 200 inches long and noone the wiser or convinced otherwise of his or her belief

So, what's your real take here? Do you accept doping as fait accompli and just enjoy bike racing as it is, or are you incensed and think the major players finally taking a fall is exactly what the 'sport' needs to cleanse itself?
Firstly, there is no 'finally' - the major players have been taking falls for ages. Pantani, the Festina scandal, Simpson, Hamilton etc.

My take - everyone is doping, it will never stop. Since accepting that many years ago, I don't let it ruin my enjoyment of what is the only sport I care about. Doping doesn't do anything to the spectacle of racing, if you accept that 99% are doping and it is actually pretty much a level playing field.

I don't mind it when a rider keeps quiet on the issue of doping. What does anger me is ANY rider who speaks out against doping. It is that hypocrisy that I find disgusting. Unfortunately in the Armstrong and post-Armstrong era, there is too much money to be made from your 'IP' in clothing/books/movies etc. This means that the temptation to be 'anti-doping', when you are in fact doping is very strong.

I also resent the new cycling fans that refuse to accept the reality of the situation. When I first learnt the reality of doping in the sport I accepted it, somewhat disappointed. I DID NOT blame a given country, try to find scapegoats or look for conspiracy theories.

If he's found guilty - he loses the title and is banned from the tour for a while.
Nope, if he's found guilty he'll be banned from all races for 2 years, from the Pro Tour for four years and have a lifetime ban from the olympics. The end of his career.

Ahhhhh EURO....

Just noticed your updated I-D tag modeled after mine.....laughed out loud at work!

thanks....

Hope you take it in the spirit of fun it's intended!

I also resent the new cycling fans that refuse to accept the reality of the situation. When I first learnt the reality of doping in the sport I accepted it, somewhat disappointed. I DID NOT blame a given country, try to find scapegoats or look for conspiracy theories.


Well put.

I also resent the new cycling fans that refuse to accept the reality of the situation. .

Thanks for the take. The scales have fallen away from my eyes in recent months, mostly because of places like BikeForums, where there is no spin to sell a product or be allegent to a sponsor.