Well, at least LeMond is able to use this to keep his name in the news.

[Dead Extra #2]

:roflmao:

Every time LeMond opens his mouth, I like him less.


Triple Tour de France winner Greg LeMond hit out the corruption of cycling after Floyd Landis failed a dope test which .........


http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/27/060727180933.xeeg2y4e.html

[flipped4bikes]

If that isn't enough, he's yapping on ESPN's OTL and SN...

[EURO]

Just two days ago he was saying how happy he was that a clean rider like Landis had finally won after all Armstrong's tainted victories.

Lemond was the first EPO-using Tour winner. He has no place in this discussion at all.

[baj32161]

It boggles my mind that all of you are allowed to spew your opinions like pollen and say it's okay and that you are entitled, yet when Greg LeMond does the very same thing you find all sorts of names to call him and reasons why he is a jerk. You are all doing nothing but the very same thing he is doing.

[SingleSpeeDemon]

Lemond was the first EPO-using Tour winner. He has no place in this discussion at all.

How do you know LeMond was doping?

[erader]

:roflmao:

Every time LeMond opens his mouth, I like him less.



http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/27/060727180933.xeeg2y4e.html

i hear you. the OLN special on lemond was the final straw for me.

ed rader

[EURO]

How do you know LeMond was doping?
Common knowledge.

[bikingshearer]

Common knowledge.
You'll have to do better than that. If Lemond being an EPO user was "common knowledge," odds are I would have heard about it by now because the cycling press would have said something about it by now. I certainly have not heard anything along the lines of Lemond being on EPO before. That doesn't mean it isn't so - but it does mean that I - and a fair number of others, I suspect - will need more than your say-so on the subject.

All that being said, watcha got in the way of evidence to back up your claim that Lemond was doping? Notice I didn't say "proof" - that is in the eye of the beholder. I am not refusing to believe what you say, just declining to believe it without something counter to what I've heard (or more accurately, what I have not heard) in more than 20 years of paying a fair amount of attention to Lemond's career without more to back it up. Please save the "you just don't want to believe the truth" stuff - I just want to know what facts led you to your conclusion. I think is what your previous questioner was looking for, too, and didn't get.

[erader]

You'll have to do better than that. If Lemond being an EPO user was "common knowledge," odds are I would have heard about it by now because the cycling press would have said something about it by now. I certainly have not heard anything along the lines of Lemond being on EPO before. That doesn't mean it isn't so - but it does mean that I - and a fair number of others, I suspect - will need more than your say-so on the subject.

All that being said, watcha got in the way of evidence to back up your claim that Lemond was doping? Notice I didn't say "proof" - that is in the eye of the beholder. I am not refusing to believe what you say, just declining to believe it without something counter to what I've heard (or more accurately, what I have not heard) in more than 20 years of paying a fair amount of attention to Lemond's career without more to back it up. Please save the "you just don't want to believe the truth" stuff - I just want to know what facts led you to your conclusion. I think is what your previous questioner was looking for, too, and didn't get.


i've heard about lemond being a pioneer in the use of epo too...many times over the years. and there's other things regarding skirts that i won't repeat here (common knowledge around these parts).

i agree: lemond should keep his whine hole shut and give the victim act a break.

i think every TDF champ since lemond has also doped and many many other top riders. whole teams.

maybe postal/discovery was the only clean team? perhaps that's why none of its riders got busted until they moved to other teams :).

there was a time that i thought some of the top riders were clean but then again i used to believe in santa claus too.

ed rader

http://www.fototime.com/2A14C4341E19E56/orig.jpg

[Prince9931]

Of all the cheaters at the least the Pirate had flair and style.

[Walter]

Who wrote that article?

The beauty of the net is that any wannabe can call him or herself a journalist and attract the naive.

I'm not proclaiming Landis' innocence but the author of that POS sure is doing the opposite. Could s/he possibly have taken Landis' mother's words more out of context? To read this crap Mrs. Landis is calling her boy a cheat whereas in the entire interview she makes it clear she is standing by her son and believes him innocent until told otherwise.

LeMond spoke very highly of Landis and like most of us is disappointed in today's news. Some of the Lance cult didn't like LeMond praising Landis and now some don't like him voicing disappointment in Landis. Oh well.

Wasn't it just Monday or Tuesday when none other than Lance himself tried to take partial credit for Floyd's win, proclaiming that Floyd came through "our" system? Who regrets their words now more, LeMond or Lance?

Btw since LeMond is one of only 2 other American Tour winners beside Landis it makes sense for the US media to go to him when TdF issues are in the news. He's not just some guy when it comes to this subject. The fact that he and LA don't get along at all is irrelevant.

[classic1]

I have no idea whether or not Lemond doped. What I can say is that there definitely were rumours about Lemond and EPO - even before EPO was widely available. I heard them from riders who were racing in Europe at the time. To state that there weren't any rumours is plain wrong.

Don't go quoting whether something appeared in the cycling press or not either. Too many vested interest there.

There was also very strong evidence that riders on the Renault team used steroids (and that was reported in the cycling press) - a team Lemond rode with for four years. If he didn't know what was going on in the 1980's he was either blind or a fool.

[erader]

Who wrote that article?

The beauty of the net is that any wannabe can call him or herself a journalist and attract the naive.

I'm not proclaiming Landis' innocence but the author of that POS sure is doing the opposite. Could s/he possibly have taken Landis' mother's words more out of context? To read this crap Mrs. Landis is calling her boy a cheat whereas in the entire interview she makes it clear she is standing by her son and believes him innocent until told otherwise.

LeMond spoke very highly of Landis and like most of us is disappointed in today's news. Some of the Lance cult didn't like LeMond praising Landis and now some don't like him voicing disappointment in Landis. Oh well.

Wasn't it just Monday or Tuesday when none other than Lance himself tried to take partial credit for Floyd's win, proclaiming that Floyd came through "our" system? Who regrets their words now more, LeMond or Lance?

Btw since LeMond is one of only 2 other American Tour winners beside Landis it makes sense for the US media to go to him when TdF issues are in the news. He's not just some guy when it comes to this subject. The fact that he and LA don't get along at all is irrelevant.


this is what lemond said:

"You will always find riders who transgress the laws. I really did believe Floyd was not among them, that he was clean. Hopefully, he will be able to step up and tell the truth."

what he is saying is he is the only clean american TDF champion.

ed rader

[SaintAndrew]

lemond is a ******. the guy looks and talks like john ritter.

everyone knows doping was common in merckx's time and well before, esp. with uppers. lemond has repeatedly claimed that he believes the peleton started doping in his last year (when he couldn't keep up). that's way fishy. by chance the year he loses it everyone started doping? that's implausible even if you take away the knowledge that doping was common knowledge.

[Walter]

Not my job to defend LeMond and I won't do it anymore but you had better find better quotes than the ones in that piece of......."journalism" to get me to go along with some of the characterizations I've seen here.

[cooleyjb]

It boggles my mind that all of you are allowed to spew your opinions like pollen and say it's okay and that you are entitled, yet when Greg LeMond does the very same thing you find all sorts of names to call him and reasons why he is a jerk. You are all doing nothing but the very same thing he is doing.


The difference between a forumite and Lemond is that Lemond is on National TV and in the National Press. We can sound whiny on a forum because of the "internet thug" attitude that comes out in most people when a keyboard, monitor and modem line separate us from everyone else out there.

Being a public figure carries a burden and that burden is all of your words will be dissected and not forgotten.

Do I like Lemond? Who cares it doesn't matter. I would like to see him be a bit less controversial and outspoken and that he would think about what he says more carefully right now he isn't helping cycling by jumping on the hate Landis wagon directly from the "it's about time a clean rider won the tour" wagon.

[waytoomanybikes]

This excerpt from the Journal of Experimental Biology makes pretty clear when EPO use hit the big time. EPO was used as early as 1947 and gained popularity in Blood Doping following the 1968 Olympics, clearly was in use through LeMond's "Glory Days"

<<
Blood Doping
Top
Abstract
History of Erythropoietin (EPO)
Sites of Production of...
Factors Involved in the...
EPO Receptor
Oxygen-Sensing and Signal...
Therapeutic Uses of EPO...
Novel Erythropoiesis Stimulating...
Blood Doping
References


Blood doping may be defined as the artificial increase in Hb/hematocrit to enhance performance. The first report of blood doping was in a controlled experiment in 1947 (187). However, blood doping did not gain attention until following the Mexico City Olympics in 1968 in which athletes won endurance races by competition from high altitude training sites, which was a type of physiological blood doping. Ekblum et al. (188) showed in a landmark paper that blood doping increased VO2max and running time to exhaustion by 9% and 23%, respectively. Ekblum and Berglund (189) reported a trial that was uncontrolled with rHuEPO in athletes and their results showed that rHuEPO administration improved VO2 max and running times to exhaustion in conjunction with increases in hematocrits. Jelkmann (190, 191) has reviewed the use of recombinant EPO as an antianemic and performance-enhancing drug. This investigator concludes that rHuEPO doping is not only unethical and illegal, but potentially dangerous. Shaskey and Green (192) have pointed out that the improvements in performance of athletes using EPO as a performance-enhancing drug are not without risk, and the use of exogenous EPO has the potential for increased viscosity of the blood and thrombosis with potentially fatal results. It is important to point out that use of rHuEPO to improve athletic performance can be even more dangerous than invasive traditional blood doping through transfusion. Excessive erythrocytosis can lead to increased blood viscosity and thrombogenicity and can cause deep vein thromboses, pulmonary emboli, coronary thromboses, or cerebral thromboses that can be exaggerated by dehydration. The use of rHuEPO to enhance athletic performance is officially banned by most sports-governing bodies and is to be condemned. There is a need to develop better detection methods using traditional urine testing. Abuse of EPO is currently difficult to detect because the routine assay for EPO is an immunoassay that immunologically cannot distinguish recombinant EPO from natural endogenous EPO (193). Darbepoetin- (NESP) has been reported recently to be used as a doping agent and was the cause of the disqualification of two athletes performing in the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City. Its use as a doping agent is also to be condemned because the excessive erythrocytosis can lead to increased blood viscosity, thromboembolism, and death.

EPO has been reported to activate specific receptors in the cental nervous system and was found to be neurotrophic and neuroprotective in both in vitro and in vivo models (195, 196). EPO and the EPO receptor have both been reported in the brain cortex, cerebellum, hippocampus, pituitary gland and spinal cord (195). The mechanisms which have been proposed by which EPO produces a neuroprotective effect are (196): reduction in glutamate toxicity, increased production of neuronal anti-apoptotic factors, reduced nitric oxide mediated injury, anti-inflammatory effects, and anti-oxidant properties.

>>

[bikingshearer]

i've heard about lemond being a pioneer in the use of epo too...many times over the years. and there's other things regarding skirts that i won't repeat here (common knowledge around these parts).
I have no idea whether or not Lemond doped. What I can say is that there definitely were rumours about Lemond and EPO - even before EPO was widely available. I heard them from riders who were racing in Europe at the time. To state that there weren't any rumours is plain wrong.

Don't go quoting whether something appeared in the cycling press or not either. Too many vested interest there.

There was also very strong evidence that riders on the Renault team used steroids (and that was reported in the cycling press) - a team Lemond rode with for four years. If he didn't know what was going on in the 1980's he was either blind or a fool.
Okay, what we have here is rumor, pure and simple. "Common knowledge" is a euphemism for rumors - airy, unspecific, unsubstantiated rumors. The fact that, in a particular area, some number of people believed the rumors does not change the fact that we are talking about rumors, not anything more solid.

I asked for information. So far, what has been offered adds up to nothing more than the old "where there's smoke, there's fire" argument. Sometimes that analysis proves correct - and sometimes it is dead wrong. But without more - not even a hint of what the specifics of the rumors are, much less any supporting facts - you can't reasonably expect me to jump on a "Lemond was a doper, too," bandwagon. Folks have at least tried to trot out pertinent info about Lance (tossed-out needles, interviewing a former soigneur) and Tyler was charged based on blood lab work - agree with the accusers or not, purveyors of those allegations have at least attempted to produce tangible evidence.

Classic1, you're right about a couple of things. First, you've taken a more responsible tack to say that you did hear rumors about Lemond using EPO, but do not know if they are true. I also agree that the fact that nothing about this was in the cycling press does not prove Lemond did not use EPO, any more than the fact that the White House press corps never ratted out JFK means that he didn't indulge in extramarital activites. But for those of us who haven't been privvy to your sources and thus can't possibly have any clue as to how reliable they are, this particular attack on Lemond comes as a bit of a surprise, and thus requires something more than asking me to take rumors - and, remeber, that's all anyone has presented in this string so far - at face value.

What kind of information do I mean? Well, I mentioned a couple of possibilities above - eyewitness accounts and clinical test results. I can even accept inferences based on something substantial, Example: Pedro Delgado was found positive for a drug that masks steroids in his winning Tour - steroids were on the banned list, the masking drug wasn't but was scheduled to be added in a few weeks because of its steroid-masking properties. If I remember correctly, the masking drug did not have any particular use for Delgado. Those facts may not convince someone that Delgado was doping, but it is certainly a reasonable inference, based on tangible facts, that he was.

The closest thing to that sort of info I've heard so far was classic1 pointing out that Lemond was on the same Renault team that was noted for producing (1) TdF winners and (2) career-threatening cases of tendonitis. I will add that Bernard Hinault did not come out and say that Renault and Cyrille Guimard was steroiding his riders - at least not in anything I've read - but Hinault sure dropped some pretty pointed hints that such was the case when Fignon went down. That is at least somewhat tangible info, although Lemond never had the kind of tendonitis that put both Hinault and Fignon under the surgeon's scalpel, so I'm not sure it adds much to the conversation.

So, I'll ask again. Other than rumors, other than "common knowledge," other than fifth-hand reports of overhearing a conversation with somebody's cousin, other than speculation or arguments that he had to be doping because everyone else was - does anyone out there have any factual information that Lemond was doping?

And for what it's worth, I wish Lemond would shut up, too. Right, wrong, or in between, he does manage to come off like a whiney brat - not very becoming in a 45 year old man.

[classic1]

This excerpt from the Journal of Experimental Biology makes pretty clear when EPO use hit the big time. EPO was used as early as 1947 and gained popularity in Blood Doping following the 1968 Olympics, clearly was in use through LeMond's "Glory Days"


You're confusing blood doping with EPO.

Blood doping refers to the practice of removing blood from an athlete and retransfusing it just prior to competition, increasing red blood cells and the bloods oxygen carrying capacity. This is the practice that the US Cycling team was criticised for after the 84 Olympics. Francesco Moser also admitted to doing it.

EPO is a naturally occuring hormone that basically tells the body to make more red blood cells. The EPO used by athletes is a synthesised version of this hormone. There were rumours about EPO 1989 or thereabouts. According to the Donati dossier it was in common use around 1993. He claimed improvements in the 5000m times of world class athletes in 1993 can be almost solely attributed to EPO use. :)

[CarlJStoneham]

Okay, what we have here is rumor, pure and simple. "Common knowledge" is a euphemism for rumors - airy, unspecific, unsubstantiated rumors. The fact that, in a particular area, some number of people believed the rumors does not change the fact that we are talking about rumors, not anything more solid.

Don't worry. It's just EURO. He's apparently angry about something so he always takes the "They all doped" troll side of any argument. I've read numerous posts by him claiming doping with no proof. Heck, if you rode alongside him at a local ride and pulled ahead, he'd probably claim you dope as well. Just ignore anything he says about doping. It's rarely well-reasoned and often appears to be little more than trolling. Let him have his own little angry world...

[erader]

[QUOTE=bikingshearer]

So, I'll ask again. Other than rumors, other than "common knowledge," other than fifth-hand reports of overhearing a conversation with somebody's cousin, other than speculation or arguments that he had to be doping because everyone else was - does anyone out there have any factual information that Lemond was doping?

QUOTE]

obviously there is no PROOF that lemond doped but we have established that cyclists were doping during lemond's day and much earlier so the real question is WOULD lemond use performance enhancing drugs?

you either believe that he would or wouldn't and there's no doubt in my mind that he would and did, and you are free to believe whatever you want.

ed rader

[Hitchy]

...what you guys have gotta remember is that stoopid journo's will be ringing up lemond asking him stuff, because they're not smart enough to write an original piece. The fact that Lemond is only to willing to say something controversial, just adds to the number of journo's wanting to talk to him.....In Aus journo's would refer to him as 'dial a quote'

[gary-nichols]

As a one of those "stoopid journo’s" I take offense to the fact that we are too stupid or lazy to write an original story; that we have to ring up Lemond to get a quote from him to write the entire story.

As any journalist will tell you, when we write a story we do background research and then include quotes from at least three sources. If any of those sources sound fishy, then we get verification about that source.

It’s kind of like getting estimates on a construction project. Nobody in their right mind would hire the first person they get a quote from. You would find at least three contractors, compare their prices and services and then make an informed decision based on your research.

As journalists, we might not get it right 100 percent of the time (as if anyone ever gets it right all the time), but at least we’re trying to check out the facts to make sure it’s as accurate as possible. That’s more than can be said for those who are simply venting.

[Hitchy]

As a one of those "stoopid journo’s" I take offense to the fact that we are too stupid or lazy to write an original story; that we have to ring up Lemond to get a quote from him to write the entire story.

As any journalist will tell you, when we write a story we do background research and then include quotes from at least three sources. If any of those sources sound fishy, then we get verification about that source.

It’s kind of like getting estimates on a construction project. Nobody in their right mind would hire the first person they get a quote from. You would find at least three contractors, compare their prices and services and then make an informed decision based on your research.

As journalists, we might not get it right 100 percent of the time (as if anyone ever gets it right all the time), but at least we’re trying to check out the facts to make sure it’s as accurate as possible. That’s more than can be said for those who are simply venting.


stoopid, maybe not....Lemond says something controversial, it ends up BEING the story...nice work if you can get it. Lazy ...yes....rather than have an original thought, Journo's keep ringing Lemond...because they know he's gunna say something they can use...again, cos he's Mr 'dial a quote' it makes their life easy....I'm surprised journo's have been asking him his thoughts on the Isreali/lebanon thing...his thoughts on that wouldn't be enlightening either, but I'll bet he'd be more than happy to give them!

[EURO]

You'll have to do better than that. If Lemond being an EPO user was "common knowledge," odds are I would have heard about it by now because the cycling press would have said something about it by now.

1. It's common knowledge amoung pro riders.
2. The press are part of the culture of secrecy as much as the riders.

[matagi]

1. It's common knowledge amoung pro riders.
2. The press are part of the culture of secrecy as much as the riders.

Just curious about the reasons and motivations here, but ....
Why would the press be part of the culture of secrecy? What's in it for them if they keep quiet?

[classic1]

There are a whole host of reasons for journos to be part of the omerta of cycling. The sport is their bread and butter - many specialize as cycling writers. They depend on access to the riders, team personnel, officialdom.... If you **** in your own nest some of the access you have to these people might not be there in future.

Many are also close to the sport, love it and don't want to hurt it. Often the journalists are ex-riders! Bringing details of the more unsavoury aspects of cycling to the great unwashed may mean sponsors leave the sport, TV coverage is cut and riders losing jobs. Many journos are close personal friends with the riders.

It doesn't only happen in cycling though. Football writers in Australia know far more of what goes on than what is reported. The Canberra press gallery is notorious for being complicite with pollies in leaks, cover-ups etc. Crime writers don't report everything they hear from underworld contacts. There is nothing unusual about it. Its the way of the world.

[flythebike]

You're confusing blood doping with EPO.

Blood doping refers to the practice of removing blood from an athlete and retransfusing it just prior to competition, increasing red blood cells and the bloods oxygen carrying capacity. This is the practice that the US Cycling team was criticised for after the 84 Olympics. Francesco Moser also admitted to doing it.

EPO is a naturally occuring hormone that basically tells the body to make more red blood cells. The EPO used by athletes is a synthesised version of this hormone. There were rumours about EPO 1989 or thereabouts. According to the Donati dossier it was in common use around 1993. He claimed improvements in the 5000m times of world class athletes in 1993 can be almost solely attributed to EPO use. :)

So if EPO wasn't used until the early 90s, how do you explain 1984,5 & 6, when Lemond was on the podium? Lemond has a right to his opinion, just like the rest of us. Because he has more street cred, some people listen to him, or at least air his views.

[rufvelo]

:roflmao:

Every time LeMond opens his mouth, I like him less.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/27/060727180933.xeeg2y4e.html

I thought his reaction/comments were well thought out and well presented, without malice.

[bellweatherman]

To the Lance Armstrong Fan Club

You know nothing of what you speak. Cycling is full of doping and a slew of drugs that you don't even know about. Drugs are pervasive in the sport. It's a virtual playground of pharmacology. Greg was one of the sport's biggest advocates of better testing during his professional career. He knew what was going around. Yesterdayt, he was interviewed and answered ESPN's questions truthfully that the sport needs to be cleaned up. He went on to say that Floyd was a good guy and that the initial results surprised him. Never once did he pass judgement on Floyd and call him a cheater. The video is available on ESPN's website. If Floyd does end up testing positive on following samples, then he SHOULD take the high road and admit wrongdoing and working to come back drug-free. I completely agree with Greg on all counts.

[baj32161]

To the Lance Armstrong Fan Club

You know nothing of what you speak. Cycling is full of doping and a slew of drugs that you don't even know about. Drugs are pervasive in the sport. It's a virtual playground of pharmacology. Greg was one of the sport's biggest advocates of better testing during his professional career. He knew what was going around. Yesterdayt, he was interviewed and answered ESPN's questions truthfully that the sport needs to be cleaned up. He went on to say that Floyd was a good guy and that the initial results surprised him. Never once did he pass judgement on Floyd and call him a cheater. The video is available on ESPN's website. If Floyd does end up testing positive on following samples, then he SHOULD take the high road and admit wrongdoing and working to come back drug-free. I completely agree with Greg on all counts.
++++++1

[Dead Extra #2]

I don't know the truth, maybe I'm naive. It just seems to me that GL is always ready to criticize and I'm not just speaking of this instance.

Never once did he pass judgement on Floyd and call him a cheater



"I'm devastated and extremely disapointed," LeMond told AFP.

You will always find riders who transgress the laws. I really did believe Floyd was not among them, that he was clean. Hopefully, he will be able to step up and tell the truth.


Sounds like he's calling him a cheater. I'm not picking on you or trying to start a fight. It just seems to me another example of him being all to ready to point out why he is so much better than everybody else. He could be dead right, I just don't like his delivery.

If he is right, and FL is quilty as charged, I agree with him. It would be nice for someone to step up and get it out in the open.

[KoM Wannabe]

1. It's common knowledge amoung pro riders.
2. The press are part of the culture of secrecy as much as the riders.


Except for l'Equipe, which still plays this one down the middle amazingly enough. Of course that publication has continued to hound Armstrong's record with accusations. :mad: Oh, and Lemond was part of that along with a former Postal teammate and his wife. Armstrong wins in court, but of course he's still guilty.

If Lemond was using EPO back then, try to imagine he was alone in doing so. I can't. And keep in mind that tests for EPO barely came about when Indurain was trouncing everyone else. Yet, in his last year in the Tour, in which he didn't come close to winning, he was broken in the mountains. I wonder why that was?

[rufvelo]

1. It's common knowledge amoung pro riders.

Then you wouldn't know any better would you?


2. The press are part of the culture of secrecy as much as the riders.

It is too risky to assume that someone in the press, anybody, some new guy who isn't steeped in the decades old deception of the masses, won't want make big bucks on a great story. Can't keep 1000 plus people lying or secret

(well maybe just the 999 guys you'll need to pay to confirm that you've made the racing top 1000 in your country :) :) :))

[classic1]

So if EPO wasn't used until the early 90s, how do you explain 1984,5 & 6, when Lemond was on the podium? Lemond has a right to his opinion, just like the rest of us. Because he has more street cred, some people listen to him, or at least air his views.

Sorry mate, I'm not sure what you are getting at. I haven't really taken issue with Lemond one way or another.

IMO Lemond was the class rider of his generation. He got his results because he had more ability than anyone else.