Professional Cycling For the Fans - Poll: Do you think Floyd Landis Doped?

I know that this issue isn't as black and white as a yes or a no but, I wanted to get the general consensus.

no, I dont think he did. he knew he was going all out that day, as did everyone else, so to take something like testosterone for the one stage to get 1st and be tested, only to fail...
I just cant see it.


I think he says it better:


WADA formerly had a standard for the T/E ratio for testosterone testing of 6:1. The average guy, on an average day, has a T/E ratio of around 1:1. But, among 1,000 guys, a few might have a T/E ratio of 4:1 and a rare guy might have a ratio of 5:1 or 6:1.

In 2005, WADA decided to lower the T/E standard from 6:1 to just 4:1, based on research showing that only a small percentage of men would violate the 4:1 ratio without some sort of artificial help.

Under the WADA standard, if the "A" sample exceeds the 4:1 ratio, then the "B" sample is tested. If the "B" sample also exceeds 4:1, the rider is asked to show the reason why. That reason could include that the rider's ratio was elevated by approved medication, or that the rider's own natural ratio sometime exceeds 4:1. If the rider does not provide an explanation for a ratio over 4:1, then he is deemed to have failed the test, and he is subject to discipline, and the results of the tests are made public.

In this case, the results of the Landis test was provided to the Times of London by someone "close" to the lab before the results were given to Landis and Landis allowed to respond. This is the same lab castigated recently for illegally giving confidential information about Lance Armstrong to the French press. When the lab got caught in the Armstrong case, they suspended an employee, and claimed the lab would clean up its act. Well, it looks like the lab needs a bigger broom.

Conspiracy? The Houston police lab was recently found to have been botching DNA tests that resulted in innocent men going to prison. It was just incompetence. But, amazingly, when the lab made an error, the error usually resulted in a "positive" for the exact same guy that the police had designated as the prime suspect. Given that there are over a million men in Houston, what were the odds of THAT happening? Naw...conspiracy theories are just silly...

The polulation doesn't have all the data yet. Wait for B sample to confirm or further muddle the issue, else as things stand, everyone has to agree that he has doped!

Not so black & white as a yes or no, but my short answer would be No...I don't think he cheated.

Is it possible, yes. But My ex wife worked in a very respected University Lab and they had tests have false positives, samples get compromised etc... several times a year despite stringent rules and safeguards that were "supposed" to be followed. So while it's possible he is guilty, I'm more inclined to say he's not and give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

- hmm... to me, it just doesn't make sense that a rider would dope knowing that testing would be inevitable...

- unless the $600K winnings and $2.5M bonus were incentive?

- still, this just doesn't seem like Landis from everything i've read about the guy...

One has to be in a top athlete's specific situation, to decide what you would or would not do. Speculation, applying your current moral standard from your desk at work, or laptop at your favorite coffee shop does not work quite well. i.e. You need to be a politician in dire financial need, or not, to understand why a bribe may be acceptable, or not.

No.. But in any event it stinketh...

if the case is that he has such a high testosterone level naturally, then wouldnt he have tested positive throught the year? or at least been red flagged?

they may all cheat but this guy was stupid or greedy enough to get caught.

I really really hope the B sample is negative because if not, this is really really bad for the sport and will give unjustified cause for the cagers to dislike cyclists, the sport, Americans, green, yellow and anything else you can think of...

I'm not a competitive athlete, so I guess I just don't understand why anyone would train SO hard for SO long to risk getting caught cheating...Especially with all this heat around (and I'm not talking the weather here) Personally, I appreciate my own efforts making due with the talents I've been blessed with and enhanced only through hard work

Please B sample, restore my Faith
http://www.omba.org/forum/images/smiles/sad5.gif

I think he cheated. That would explain his 'miraculas comeback'.

LilSprocket - It wont cause anyone to dislike the sport or the cyclists, but it will cause the world to dislike Landis and in some circumstances, more dislike Americans ;).

No, it wouldnt explain his "miraculas comeback", testosterone isnt normaly considered to be able to helped in the short term like that .

If he did take testosterone it only raises more questions.

Im holding off until the b test and how far off he was from the 4 to 1. Im was really suprised to hear the ratio had to be so low, many people have 4 to 1 naturally, its probaly more common than his hip problem.

The quote after his miraculous recovery (something like "I have no idea what happened") seems oddly suspicious now...

I just hope he doesn't pull a Tyler.

Interesting thought: How would this poll turn out if it was Lance's name...? Whose performance seems more likely drug-related: Lance's steady domination or Floyd's miraculous comeback? Just food for thought :)

Not sure if he doped or not, but as stated I do think it could explain his comeback. Lets hope not.
Whilst test isn't the best performance enhancing substance for endurance athletes, it does help the muscles recover much faster than normal. Some water based testosterone's do leave the body in a few hours so maybe he got the timing wrong.

The B Sample thing is a Red Herring. There has been so much made of it that if it does come back positive, then everyone is going to act like that is conclusive proof that he's a doper. If the guy just has high testosterone levels then we should expect that the second sample will test high as the first. I've read some mention of a follow-up endocrinological test. That seems like the data point that folks should wait for before making any pronouncements of guild or innocence.

Come on, every one knows the winner of every stage will be tested. If he did cheat, he and his doctor were too careless and dumb. wouldn't you agree? so I don't think he cheated.

I want the answer to be no, so that's how I voted. I was surprised to hear that his 'single beer' after the stage turned into 'whiskey in the bathroom' later, though. What next...sasparilla bottle? He just seems so much smarter than Ben Johnson...

I'll wait for the second test to decide.

I've long ago given up believing in miracles....but man, that stage 17 ride, i wanted to believe, really I did......not cos I'm a Floyd fan ,(I'm definately not), but for cycling, I really, really wanted to believe that this ride was possible, to believe that anything is possible if you want it bad enough,but I didn't cos of all that has been before....I knew then. Floyd is a cheat...the 'B' sample will show the same results....then do we have to go thru the 'Tyler' scenario again?......maybe Floyd has a missing twin too.....

I hope he is cleared.... but the damage to his family and career is already done.

Stupide French media.... oh wait.... leaking of information? New York times does the same thing. My bad

I don't think he cheated; I want so much to believe he did not cheat. To reiterate a statement already made, he and his people would know the winner of the stage and wearer of the yellow jersey would be tested so it seems idiotic to utilize a substance which would be detected in post-race testing.

Floyd had me yelling and jumping up and down during his breakaway the day after his collapse...

I will wait for further testing to pass judgment.


Why is his web site offline? He has a forum - which he can control - to shoot back at the allegations and he is not taking advantage of it...

Why is his web site offline? He has a forum - which he can control - to shoot back at the allegations and he is not taking advantage of it...

It was being overwhelmed with hits, it was hit or miss if you could get onto it so they probably shut it down to avoid overwhelming the servers of whoever hosts his site.

Also, anyone and their brother could post comments on that site, it was probably getting flooded. You're only aloud so much bandwidth per month and then you have to pay extra, I imagine he was getting his months worth every hour.

It was being overwhelmed with hits, it was hit or miss if you could get onto it so they probably shut it down to avoid overwhelming the servers of whoever hosts his site.

Also, anyone and their brother could post comments on that site, it was probably getting flooded. You're only aloud so much bandwidth per month and then you have to pay extra, I imagine he was getting his months worth every hour.


Makes sense...

just want to see Floyd shaking his fist at everyone attesting his innocence...

Another Poll option: Do you think Landis, and cycling in general are gretting screwed by the public announcement before the B test results?

Yes, I belive its likely that he took a banned substence or otherwise cheated & I believe this test is a false positive or his high ratio of T/E was naturally occuring. {his testosterone level was low, so calling it a high level of testosterone is not correct**

Another Poll option: Do you think Landis, and cycling in general are gretting screwed by the public announcement before the B test results?

yes

Did you look at his wife's face? Of course he had high testosterone she's a doll.

Joe
:beer:

NO ANSWER because you haven't presented a valid choice. To whit, the reported test does not show a high level of testosterone.

Your poll is meaningless.

No. 1st, In the past 24 hours I've read of a number of things that can cause a high testosterone/epitesosterone ratio. 2nd, I can't believe he would be dumb enough to take testosterone during the Tour. Testosterone doesn't do anything to improve performance on a daily basis. And he knew that, being a stage winner, he was going to be tested.

I think that even if the B sample is the same as the A Floyd and his people will be able to prove that the ratio was high due to things other than taking testosterone.

SB

Reading the posts, it sounds as if 75% of Forum members have already convicted Floyd. We don't need no stinkin' evidence or trial.

Yet, the poll shows 76% of members think Floyd is innocent. I guess that means that the "hang Floyd" bunch is a small group of people, who are out-posting the saner members by a large margin.

Reading the posts, it sounds as if 75% of Forum members have already convicted Floyd. We don't need no stinkin' evidence or trial.

Yet, the poll shows 76% of members think Floyd is innocent. I guess that means that the "hang Floyd" bunch is a small group of people, who are out-posting the saner members by a large margin.




No. 1st, In the past 24 hours I've read of a number of things that can cause a high testosterone/epitesosterone ratio. 2nd, I can't believe he would be dumb enough to take testosterone during the Tour. Testosterone doesn't do anything to improve performance on a daily basis. And he knew that, being a stage winner, he was going to be tested.

I think that even if the B sample is the same as the A Floyd and his people will be able to prove that the ratio was high due to things other than taking testosterone.

SB


+1
the poll is @ 75.10 % not guilty - 257 votes

its the poeple that WANT to believe Landis took something posting over and over, and I thought I was cynical :rolleyes:

but to the people who first hear the news without reading all these variables, I can understand how they think, but once you hear all the facts, between the B sample and different tests- hurry up and wait ...

the newest repors are saying he tested positive for exogenous testosterone. he is ****ed. congrats pereiro!

the newest repors are saying he tested positive for exogenous testosterone. he is ****ed. congrats pereiro!

links, quotes, anything but you saying so ???

links, quotes, anything but you saying so ???

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul31news

the newest repors are saying he tested positive for exogenous testosterone. he is ****ed. congrats pereiro!
anything besides rumors from L'Equipe?

anything besides rumors from L'Equipe?

it seems they have the information first hand before anyone else. hmmmmm...

it seems they have the information first hand before anyone else. hmmmmm...

I am not so sure they don't have the information before the lab does :)

In the last few days, my opinion has definately changed. I have a feeling he did it. I hope I'm wrong though.

it seems they (L'Equipe) have the information first hand before anyone else. hmmmmm... Well it involves a Lab in Paris, they are located in Paris, and cover cycling extensively. Are you surprised when the NY Times breaks stories happening in NY?

Well it involves a Lab in Paris, they are located in Paris, and cover cycling extensively. Are you surprised when the NY Times breaks stories happening in NY?

yes, especially if it deals with a lab in NYC that repeatedly leaks information to the Times without any formal confirmation, announcement or patient release. c'mon

The lab is supposed to report to the official body that hired them not to the press. Somebody should get sued.

Somebody should get sued.
Wrong continent, mate.

links, quotes, anything but you saying so ???take a bite of this:


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/31/sports/othersports/31cnd-landis.html?hp&ex=1154404800&en=07a1b9cc5210daa3&ei=5094&partner= (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/31/sports/othersports/31cnd-landis.html?hp&ex=1154404800&en=07a1b9cc5210daa3&ei=5094&partner=homepage)homepage

It's amazing to me; the news keeps getting worse for Landis, and the poll numbers are swinging slightly in his favor. I can understand holding onto a vote that he's innocent based on the presumption of innoncence argument, however if you're just betting which way its going to come out, I think its highly unlikely he's not going to be sanctioned.

I'm starting to think he did, because of the LEAKS . . . but until it's official, I'll still give him the benefit of the doubt.

I did, then I didn't (believe that he was guilty of what he's being accused of, I believe he doped in other methods), now I do again.

Wrong continent, mate.

Really? You can't sue in France- silly me.

Really? You can't sue in France- silly me.
You can, but they don't think you can solve every problem on god's earth with an exchange of funds.