Professional Cycling For the Fans - why does 75% of this board want landis to be guilty?

seriously i cannot believe how many people are ready to feed landis to the lions. we are just starting to get the details of the test results (still only rumors though), the second sample has not been tested, landis has had ZERO chance to mount a defense. it seems to me that there are many more explanations that could explain why he might NOT be guilty than what the results of a single test have indicated.

still the overwhelming, kuckledragging, f-him he's done in my book posts just amaze me.

ummm... if you read the poll, i think it's 75% who think he's innocent...
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=214428

I dreaded this happening, not for Floyd, but for cycling...but he's guilty.....I don't want him to be, but he is

to answer you're extremely broad question, Ill give you an extremely broad answer,
Because the other 25% think he is completely innocent. If someone thinks he is innocent someone else will think he is guilty.

why does 75% of this board want landis to be guilty?
Well for me, the clincher is the fact that he won the Tour de France.

Well for me, the clincher is the fact that he won the Tour de France.

harsh.
So do you hate every tdf winner?

I really want the guy to be cleared. I want to find out that he didn't dope. Unfortunately that's not the way the evidence is pointing.

I don't want to throw him to the lions. I'm waiting on the B sample but I won't hold my breath.

It doesn't matter if he is cleared by the Pope himself.

He has been convicted in the "court of public opinion", and thats all that matters. There will never be enough exculpatory evidence for Floyd to clear himself. I don't care if you drain him dry, test his blood, piss, spit, snot or any other body fluids and never find one iota of evidence he has ever used a PED.

His reputation, and probably his career are ruined, not by the possibility that he doped, but by the fact that the news got out that a "highly placed rider in the tour tested positive for a PED". It doesn't matter if it's the truth or not. It's all about perception anymore.

If Floyd is cleared of this charge that the media has leveled against him, I hope he is ruthless in finding and punishing (within the law) whoever let this cat out of the bag.

I certainly want him to be innocent but, as many have said, to date the evidence points in the direction of guilty. If the B sample is negative he will have little trouble with his career, team, etc. If negative however, . . .Also, the interview last night was not the most convincing and he answered some questions oddly:

Q - have you ever taken performance enhancing drugs?
FL - Umm. I'm going to say no to that.

Not a real emphatic "Hell no, never!" Maybe he was tired but he wasn't that energetic in his defense.

I still get back to the point of why do defenders (and dopers) attack the tests? Do you really think that if the tests were so wacked out that the pro-teams would sign contracts putting them, the sponsors, riders, etc at risk if they thought the tests were (according to many posters here) totally arbitrary?

"Court of Public Opinion"......uh that doesn't matter. That didn't put OJ behind bars. Public Opinion is useless and fickle.

What matters are the facts. The fact is the tests showed an abnormality. But the fact is that the testing itself shows abnormalities: Testosterone needs to be taken over a period of time to be effective....yet all testing prior to the 17th show normal levels. A single shot will not produce the results we saw in Landis. The fact is that alcohol increases testo levels.

What we don't know is if Landis boozed it up or shot it up. Based on all the evidence (multiple negative tests, need for consecutive use of injections for performance boost, ability of alcohol to affect testo levels)...it is likely that Landis is innocent and judgement should be reserved until a thorough analyis is done.

If in fact it is alcohol related, I say that Landis could clear himself by trying to recreate the events that led up to the situation by undergoing a controlled study of alcohols affect on testo levels during a strenuous multi-day event for a high performance athlete.

I think the vast majority of this fourm wants desperately for it not to be true, but we're becoming pretty damn jaded and sceptical at this point. What I don't wan't, and cycling certainly doesn't need, is another Tyler Hamilton saga.

still the overwhelming, kuckledragging, f-him he's done in my book posts just amaze me.

Here we go. Tyler Hamilton and Lance Armstrong all over again. They all must be innocent (well, they are American)

Quite simply... people are saying he is guilty because his A sample failed a doping test.
Personally I don't know why we should all assume that the test is incorrect.

Here we go. Tyler Hamilton and Lance Armstrong all over again. They all must be innocent (well, they are American)


Yep. We have no problem calling Ulrich a doper, ever though I don't believe he failed any test. But as soon as an American fails there are screams of innocent until proven guilty.

Yep. We have no problem calling Ulrich a doper, ever though I don't believe he failed any test. But as soon as an American fails there are screams of innocent until proven guilty.
That's a great generalization. I am American and I initially was pulling for Jan until he got banned unfairly. I think his team jumped the gun. But I feel that people just jump to conclusions way too fast. With just about anything. That's the one thing that the internet has really sped up. Rumors and Gossip. I still believe that Der Kaiser should have been allowed and I would have rooted for him. But once it began I went with the best of what was left.

harsh.
So do you hate every tdf winner?

EURO didn't say he hated anyone. He's basically trying to say that he is among the camp who believe that any grand tour winner the elite UCI Pro Tour level of cycling has got to be on something more than his bike.

I think.

What we don't know is if Landis boozed it up or shot it up. Based on all the evidence (multiple negative tests, need for consecutive use of injections for performance boost, ability of alcohol to affect testo levels)...it is likely that Landis is innocent and judgement should be reserved until a thorough analyis is done.

Exactly...tell it to ESPN, CNN, MSNBC, Drudge, etc...

99% of the people in the USA couldn't care less about the TdF, until the media came out with headlines like "TdF Champion Landis Tests Positive for Testosterone." How many people read beyond the headline and gathered any real facts before making a judgement? I was at Dick's an hour ago and the cashiers were talking about Landis and how he should be banned for life.

Why muddy a headline with facts?

Nobody seems to pay even the slightest bit of attention to the fact that his actual testesterone level was relatively low. For whatever reason his epitesterone level was real low and triggered the test.

Now I've been around competitive weightlifting long enough to be pretty sure that a low testestrone level is not the desired result of "going 'round the horn" (injections are done in the thighs, hip erectors and glutes.) or even using patches on the 'nads. Where's the performance enhancer?

I'm not a biochemist and perhaps a low ratio even with relatively low testesterone levels will boost performance. If so then Floyd probably did something and deserves condemnation but I wish we'd get off the "high testerone" and "injecting" bit as that doesn't seem to hold water.

If somebody knows that a low testerone level combined with a real low epitesterone ratio is a performance enhancer please chime in. Obviously I'm backing Floyd but my support is not unconditional.

harsh.
So do you hate every tdf winner?

He's a miserable little troll, of course he does.

ummm... if you read the poll, i think it's 75% who think he's innocent...
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=214428

but it seems like the poll does NOT reflect the individual posters or the sheer number of posts against landis

Yep. We have no problem calling Ulrich a doper, ever though I don't believe he failed any test. But as soon as an American fails there are screams of innocent until proven guilty.

i never intended to single out landis (or american riders) for the 'special' innocent until guilty treatment. personally i think it's pinheads like dick pound that have created this witchhunt atmosphere. i heard pound interviewed on npr last night and it scares me how willing that guy is to destroy a persons career over a simple test or indicator.

If Floyd is cleared of this charge that the media has leveled against him, I hope he is ruthless in finding and punishing (within the law) whoever let this cat out of the bag.

There are no laws against letting the cat out of the bag. Unless he can show someone knowingly published false information he has no recourse. Considering what I have seen so far there is little out there that could even possibly rise to the legal standard.

It is getting regrettably easy to believe that professional athletes are using drugs.

That and the story that he bonked hard, got drunk and then destroyed everyone the next day is a little hard to swallow. To test it, tonight I will drink 4 beers and several shots. I will report back with my results tomorrow.

Somebody in the lab broke a confidentiality agreement but that's happened in that lab before apparently. However, I doubt there's a role for the courts to play in this as what was broken was a term of employment, I'd assume and not a civil violation.

There are no laws against letting the cat out of the bag. Unless he can show someone knowingly published false information he has no recourse. Considering what I have seen so far there is little out there that could even possibly rise to the legal standard.

It is my understanding that the UCI has an agreement (or it is part of the contract) with this lab concerning confidentiality.

I also read on this board that this information was released through the UCI because the UCI felt that the lab would leak it anyway.

French/Europeon law is way out of my league, but if you breech a contract, don't you open yourself up to lawsuits?

Either way, it looks like someone opened their pie hole when they shouldn't have, and that is what is going to ruin Landis.

It is getting regrettably easy to believe that professional athletes are using drugs.

That and the story that he bonked hard, got drunk and then destroyed everyone the next day is a little hard to swallow. To test it, tonight I will drink 4 beers and several shots. I will report back with my results tomorrow.

Oh, so if Landis can do it so can you? How about you get testicular cancer too, then you TOO can win the TdF 7 times in a row! YAY!

harsh.
So do you hate every tdf winner?

Nope - I admire every single one. Every single doping cheating one of them, along with all the other doping cheating pros.

I like it when they get caught because it goes some way to exposing the simple truth that they are all at it.

Nobody seems to pay even the slightest bit of attention to the fact that his actual testesterone level was relatively low. For whatever reason his epitesterone level was real low and triggered the test.

Now I've been around competitive weightlifting long enough to be pretty sure that a low testestrone level is not the desired result of "going 'round the horn" (injections are done in the thighs, hip erectors and glutes.) or even using patches on the 'nads. Where's the performance enhancer?



Response to thread question
Why do folks feel that the sample of forum members who post to a thread accurately reflect the larger population?

Comment to Walter
Using patches won't provide a performance boost. The goal is to allow your body to recuperate more quickly so your performance is less degraded...

Note: I think the entire peleton is doping so I'm not surprised by this event. I take no joy in it and if Landis is stripped I think the victory will just go to the second strongest rider who doped and I'd feel this way regardless of who won as I see the playing field as level...

It is getting regrettably easy to believe that professional athletes are using drugs.

That and the story that he bonked hard, got drunk and then destroyed everyone the next day is a little hard to swallow. To test it, tonight I will drink 4 beers and several shots. I will report back with my results tomorrow.
I'm sorry but this will prove nothing. We need a mass group-study. I have also volunteered. Any other takers? :D

Nope - I admire every single one. Every single doping cheating one of them, along with all the other doping cheating pros.

I like it when they get caught because it goes some way to exposing the simple truth that they are all at it.


i hear what you are saying...they all use something. and i agree. i think turning a blind eye to doping -- like it was until a few years ago -- is the best way to level the playing field short of destroying the sport.

the guy off the front may be doping but so were the guys who couldn't go with him.

this is not meant to be a statement about landis -- because i hope he is cleared -- but what i believe to be true about pro cycling.

ed rader

i hear what you are saying...they all use something. and i agree. i think turning a blind eye to doping -- like it was until a few years ago -- is the best way to level the playing field short of destroying the sport.

the guy off the front may be doping but so were the guys who couldn't go with him.

this is not meant to be a statement about landis -- because i hope he is cleared -- but what i believe to be true about pro cycling.

So in many a motor-sport there is the "unlimited" class. Perhaps that's what we need for cycling. :p

I want the truth to come out and I hope some good can come out of this mess.

i hear what you are saying...they all use something. and i agree. i think turning a blind eye to doping -- like it was until a few years ago -- is the best way to level the playing field short of destroying the sport.

the guy off the front may be doping but so were the guys who couldn't go with him.

this is not meant to be a statement about landis -- because i hope he is cleared -- but what i believe to be true about pro cycling.

ed rader

I think the way it is now is perfect, actually.

A blind eye to doping, would lead to insane freaks that all drop dead at 40.

What we have today, are mild, relatively safe, target body chemistry levels, that essentially equalize the drug boost among athletes. The best athletes still win, if they all have 3.0 T/EP raitos, and 45% hemacrits. In a way, if you have low natural testosterone or red blood cell counts, it seems reasonable that you should be allowed to equalize. Just don't screw up the doses.

The other great thing about today's system is it allows the hypocrisy of normal looking athletes teaching kids to "say no to drugs", which is important to many of us.

I want the truth to come out and I hope some good can come out of this mess.

+1

I don't want Landis to be guilty. Nothing would make me happier than to learn without doubt that he was clean. This isn't hero worship on my part, just a simple desire to believe that a human being can have a horrible day and then the next day stomp the field flat, fueled by nothing other than his wits, his muscles, and his determination.

some people don't quite understand what i means for him to have his a sample tested positive:

it means he has tested positive!

people keep thinking "well that's just the A sample..." but don't really understand that the process is set up that way to remove crazy doubts like the lance armstrongesque french out to get me conspiracy theories. in fact abou the only time i can think of an athlete beign found innocent because the samples didn't match is tyler hamilton, who we all know now is guilty as sin.

some people don't quite understand what i means for him to have his a sample tested positive:

it means he has tested positive!
Right. It means the test came back positive for what they were testing. However, this brings into question as to validity of applying such a test in the first place to get to the endgame which is to determine whether the rider was doping or not. Secondly, one could also argue the reliability of the testing method itself. From everything I've read so far, the T/ET test has about as much reliability for determining somone is guilty of doping as a polygraph test has for determining whether someone is guilty of murder. It leaves a lot up for interpretation.

You got it. Few others do.

As to the topic at hand, BikeForums seems to be well out in front of e.g. cyclingforums.com where an anti-American witch burning is underway.

...cyclingforums.com where an anti-American witch burning is underway.

As opposed to the Pro-Floyd Cheerleading Competition here.... :rolleyes:

I havn't seen any evidence of Landis doping yet. I have seen a statement that there is an anamoly in his T/E ration.

I didnt throw the 5 Astana riders a guilty sentence either, since no evidence was proven, and look, they are exhonerated.

btw, I am american, so that blows your idiotic stereotypical "innocent if he is american, guilty is he is not" type b.s. comments some of you make.

Spend less time looking for the "typical american response" and more time in the mirror.

Q - have you ever taken performance enhancing drugs?
FL - Umm. I'm going to say no to that.

Not a real emphatic "Hell no, never!" Maybe he was tired but he wasn't that energetic in his defense.


The guy has a very quirky personality according to what I've read. So did you ever think that maybe what he was getting at was what a stupid question that was to ask? Like ummmm did I ever take PEDs? Hmmmm......let me think about that...........guess I'll say no! That's what he was saying was NO, NO, NO and this idiot asks had he ever taken them. That's like some reporter asking a greiving family member in a mass disaster, "How does this make you feel?" Stupid questions deserve stupid answers. What does the report think he's going to say? Well, Floyd said something different than expected because that's Floyd.

I didnt throw the 5 Astana riders a guilty sentence either, since no evidence was proven, and look, they are exhonerated.

They got a certificate stating that they are not being criminally investigated... which means that the Spanish prosecution is more interested in the Doctors than the dopers... and why is that? Because Spain does not yet have an anti-doping law, though the government is working on it. (Was supposed to be voted on just before the TdF began). So, in my book, they aren't exonerated. They're just going to get away with it this time. But we're watching.

Velonews quote:

The five riders received a legal document signed by Manuel Sánchez Martín, secretary for the Spanish court heading up the "Operación Puerto" investigation, stating, "there are not any type of charges against them nor have there been adopted any type of legal action against them."

The guy has a very quirky personality according to what I've read. So did you ever think that maybe what he was getting at was what a stupid question that was to ask? Like ummmm did I ever take PEDs? Hmmmm......let me think about that...........guess I'll say no! That's what he was saying was NO, NO, NO and this idiot asks had he ever taken them. That's like some reporter asking a greiving family member in a mass disaster, "How does this make you feel?" Stupid questions deserve stupid answers. What does the report think he's going to say? Well, Floyd said something different than expected because that's Floyd.

Or he's justs not so polished as Lance would have been... from what I've read, he's very new to the big press conference sort of thing and may need some more "handlers".

he five riders received a legal document signed by Manuel Sánchez Martín, secretary for the Spanish court heading up the "Operación Puerto" investigation, stating, "there are not any type of charges against them nor have there been adopted any type of legal action against them." Well, in the absence of a law, that statement says absolutely nothing about whether they doped, or the existence of evidence to that effect. It will be interesting to see UCI's stance on how it affects their suspensions.

Or he's justs not so polished as Lance would have been... from what I've read, he's very new to the big press conference sort of thing and may need some more "handlers".

That's so true! Which is probably why he thought a tounge-in-cheek comment would have been understood by everyone and it most obviously wasn't. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt until all the results are in. And I'm optimistic:)

I believe the ProTour "Code of Ethics" requires the teams to hold their riders out of competition once they are informed of an anomalous test result. Since Floyd had to be held out of a couple races this week, Phonak really had no choice but to announce why. I don't think you can blame the media on that although they did jump on the story like a starving dog. I am a little disgusted with ESPN's ratio of coverage during/after the tour, but it really didn't become a sensational American story until after Stage 16... they've covered things pretty close since then.

I would like to believe in Floyd...I don't want my memories of the Morzine race spoiled.

Hey--I would like it if FLoyd was exonerated from these charges (with a negative result from the B sample--not by lawyer) and stays in yellow. And I do have some skepticism with the Euro testing, since afterall, we have won "their race" for the past 8 years, so this would be the perfect time to nip this "American winning the TDF" thing in the bud--before we go on another spree. It would be like some French football team coming over here and beating the New England Patriots in the Super Bowl--right? We would be pissed! I would be yelling cheaters!!!, from my couch in California----"they ate testo/amphetamine laced croissants for breakfast!!!!" Take back our trophy!!

But---if this ratio is naturally out of range for Landis, why hasn't he failed this test before? They only do this test on Stage 17 in the tdf?

It would seem logical that there would be a paper trail with similar abnormal results from his doctor, (since he did say that Floyd has naturally high mojo--the only way you know that is by a blood test) and also in past racing seasons, so they could easily prove these allegations false.

Rots a ruck. Hopefully the B sample will be negative.

Indeed, it must be a European conspiracy. :rolleyes:

What if the "B" comes back with a 1:1? Floyd and his doc both said he has a naturally elevated ratio :eek:

I would like to believe in Floyd...I don't want my memories of the Morzine race spoiled.


that really sums up the "I don't believe Floyd did it" sentiment. None of us (at least the americans on here) want that. And the "say it ain't so Joe" sentiment appears to be clouding some judgement.