Professional Cycling For the Fans - I believe Floyd...

I saw Floyd on Larry King last night giving his story, and then a had chance to think about this some, and here is my take on it.


All of the riders in the TdF know that if they are stage winner or tour leader that they will be tested. Had Floyd wanted to dope, he could have chosen something that at least had a chance of getting past the tests. Picking testosterone is just asking for trouble.
Testosterone was typically used during training to build muscle mass over several months. In the bad old days where the East German swim team used the stuff, they would use it prior to the event, and then stop prior to the event to give the body a chance to restore normal testosterone levels. A sudden spike in levels during an event isn't consistent with typical abuse patterns.
Floyd's doctor said that he didn't think that there would even be any benefit to using testosterone on the day of an event.


At this point I don't know how it is that his levels became elevated, and it sounds like nobody else really does either. We will have to see what the remaining tests actually say - there is one test that is yet to be performed which will say whether there were any hormones in there which weren't produced by his body, and that will help quite a bit.

I saw Floyd on Larry King last night giving his story, and then a had chance to think about this some, and here is my take on it.


All of the riders in the TdF know that if they are stage winner or tour leader that they will be tested. Had Floyd wanted to dope, he could have chosen something that at least had a chance of getting past the tests. Picking testosterone is just asking for trouble.
Testosterone was typically used during training to build muscle mass over several months. In the bad old days where the East German swim team used the stuff, they would use it prior to the event, and then stop prior to the event to give the body a chance to restore normal testosterone levels. A sudden spike in levels during an event isn't consistent with typical abuse patterns.
Floyd's doctor said that he didn't think that there would even be any benefit to using testosterone on the day of an event.


At this point I don't know how it is that his levels became elevated, and it sounds like nobody else really does either. We will have to see what the remaining tests actually say - there is one test that is yet to be performed which will say whether there were any hormones in there which weren't produced by his body, and that will help quite a bit.


you are certainly entitled to your opinion.....Hope you're right....but I doubt it

I believe him also.

More than the 'I think they are smarter than that' theory, I prefer to believe Floyd is a man of principle. He told his mom he's not guilty. I am hoping that means something. I know that may be naive, but in todays day & age I gotta hold out hope.

What you are forgetting is Floyd had nothing to lose. He lost the race on stage 16. There may be no next year for him due to the hip. He can dope and have a 50-50 chance of getting caught, and possibly getting back in the race, or he can end his career with a 10th place finish at the TDF.

Richard

What you are forgetting is Floyd had nothing to lose. He lost the race on stage 16. There may be no next year for him due to the hip. He can dope and have a 50-50 chance of getting caught, and possibly getting back in the race, or he can end his career with a 10th place finish at the TDF.

Richard

I think you are spot on, IF the B sample is positive. Think on this scenario -

1. After Stage 16 the TDF is lost to Floyd in everyone's mind, including his own
2. Proof of (1) is that he went and had 2 beers and "at least" 4 shots of Jack Daniels - NO racer who thought he had a shot at winning would do this. . .
3. To speed his recovery so he can FINISH the TDF he puts the Testo patch on his scrotum (which according to the WSJ, ESPN, etc. . .WILL speed recovery). At this point he knows he won't be tested and is planning to not lose any more time and get a few places back in the TT.
4. Stage 17 starts and he heads out NEVER expecting that they will let him go, but they do.
5. He finishes 1st and gets tested, something he nor anyone thought would happen.
6. The urine test picks up the testo used for his recovery.

If he is guilty this scenario explains it and fits with why. . .IMO.

I think you are spot on, IF the B sample is positive. Think on this scenario -

1. After Stage 16 the TDF is lost to Floyd in everyone's mind, including his own
2. Proof of (1) is that he went and had 2 beers and "at least" 4 shots of Jack Daniels - NO racer who thought he had a shot at winning would do this. . .
3. To speed his recovery so he can FINISH the TDF he puts the Testo patch on his scrotum (which according to the WSJ, ESPN, etc. . .WILL speed recovery). At this point he knows he won't be tested and is planning to not lose any more time and get a few places back in the TT.
4. Stage 17 starts and he heads out NEVER expecting that they will let him go, but they do.
5. He finishes 1st and gets tested, something he nor anyone thought would happen.
6. The urine test picks up the testo used for his recovery.

If he is guilty this scenario explains it and fits with why. . .IMO.

theory still doesn't hold water...
1. Why try a hail Mary then? obviously he still had some hope of winning and so did his team.
2. Where are the actual notations that he had that much?
3. Jeopardize his career to get up a couple of spots on a TT? Just to recover quicker? Every expert asked on this subject has stated that this would have had no effect on his TT.
4. Why push yourself then knowing you would be tested as race leader and stage finisher? Why not hold back and let someone else finish? Why would he frame himself knowing he would be tested?
5. see my answer to 4.
6. obvious but as stated previously. The test only shows disproportionate amounts of the T:E count.
"no signs or proof of outside or synthetic T source".

theory still doesn't hold water...
1. Why try a hail Mary then? obviously he still had some hope of winning and so did his team.
2. Where are the actual notations that he had that much?
3. Jeopardize his career to get up a couple of spots on a TT? Just to recover quicker? Every expert asked on this subject has stated that this would have had no effect on his TT.
4. Why push yourself then knowing you would be tested as race leader and stage finisher? Why not hold back and let someone else finish? Why would he frame himself knowing he would be tested?
5. see my answer to 4.
6. obvious but as stated previously. The test only shows disproportionate amounts of the T:E count.
"no signs or proof of outside or synthetic T source".

Sure it does, you didn't read what I posted:

1. It was NOT a hail mary to win, it was an attempt to finish without any more damage. Stage 17 was tougher than 16 and if cracked on 16 then he needed 'help' to hold his own.
2. Read and listen to his interview. . readily avail on the internet.
3. His career is pretty much over due to the hip and even without the doping charge, he won't be back (his own physician said that a 'weekend warrior' with a hip as bad as Floyds would have trouble on weekend rides - see the NYT Magazine article of 3 weeks ago).
4. These guys are killers and once he got out there it would be too hard to hold back. Also, I read (and I will see if I can get the ref) that they don't test everything all the time. Some stages they test for this, some for that. . .He didn't frame himself, he took a risk and it backfired.
5. See my 4.
6. None of us are scientists (at least I am not) specializing in performance enhancing drugs so not sure us arguing over it makes tons of sense.

Net/net, I hope the B sample is negative and we have a true hero and a great performance but the reality is that it does not look good and the last thing cycling needs is another Tyler Hamilton throwing up one defense after another as to why he tested positive. Floyd started to do that in the interview and then backed away (the cortisone, the booze, . . .).

An interesting perspective is here "Won't Get Fooled Again":
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/columns/story?id=2532911

I believe Flandis, until proven otherwise.
If it's proven that he cheated, as I believe Tyler did, then I'll condemn him.
As much as we talk about this in cycling, I wish other sports would take doping as seriously as the UCI.
Most of them give a pass to cheaters. Kudos to cycling for being tough on them.

1. It was NOT a hail mary to win, it was an attempt to finish without any more damage. Stage 17 was tougher than 16 and if cracked on 16 then he needed 'help' to hold his own.



Were you watching the phonak team in stage 17? That wasn't a "Hey, let's see if we can hold on, guys" tactic. Those guys went balls out to get Floyd off the front. His plan from the start that day was to make up all the time possible.

Sure it does, you didn't read what I posted:

1. It was NOT a hail mary to win, it was an attempt to finish without any more damage. Stage 17 was tougher than 16 and if cracked on 16 then he needed 'help' to hold his own.
2. Read and listen to his interview. . readily avail on the internet.
3. His career is pretty much over due to the hip and even without the doping charge, he won't be back (his own physician said that a 'weekend warrior' with a hip as bad as Floyds would have trouble on weekend rides - see the NYT Magazine article of 3 weeks ago).
4. These guys are killers and once he got out there it would be too hard to hold back. Also, I read (and I will see if I can get the ref) that they don't test everything all the time. Some stages they test for this, some for that. . .He didn't frame himself, he took a risk and it backfired.
5. See my 4.
6. None of us are scientists (at least I am not) specializing in performance enhancing drugs so not sure us arguing over it makes tons of sense.

]

1. watch that stage again and if you can honestly tell me that wasn't a hail Mary to gain back time, I don't know what is.
3. do you think that Floyd would stop racing because of a hip replacement? I know several young people who had this procedure done and they say their hip is better than before. If Floyd can win the TDF and other races with a bad hip, can you imagine what he could do with a new one?
4. silly. he couldn't control himself and fix it so he wouldn't be tested?
6. agreed.

3. To speed his recovery so he can FINISH the TDF he puts the Testo patch on his scrotum (which according to the WSJ, ESPN, etc. . .WILL speed recovery). At this point he knows he won't be tested and is planning to not lose any more time and get a few places back in the TT.


Testosterone to speed recovery only works on fast-twitch muscle fibers, like a sprinter would need. For a GC contender, or recovery before and after mountain stages, where slow-twitch muscle fibers are used and needed, it would be the wrong drug to use.

Knows he won't be tested? That's a huge assumption since most riders assume they will be tested at any moment.

Also, intense & vigorous exercise can trigger testosterone release for a short period following.

What you are forgetting is Floyd had nothing to lose. He lost the race on stage 16. There may be no next year for him due to the hip. He can dope and have a 50-50 chance of getting caught, and possibly getting back in the race, or he can end his career with a 10th place finish at the TDF.

Richard


good points. many are caught because the doctors f**k up. also, testosterone is used for recovery, not just building muscle.

ed rader

Were you watching the phonak team in stage 17? That wasn't a "Hey, let's see if we can hold on, guys" tactic. Those guys went balls out to get Floyd off the front. His plan from the start that day was to make up all the time possible.

I think it became a hail mary to win once it worked. If he hadn't been so strong and the other teams chased him down, etc. . .In retrotspect since he won, yes, but we will never know what the real plan was and he (Floyd) may not have known until he took off and felt so strong.

I am not saying he is guilty! I don't know, but there are plausible reason why he could be guilty and there are plausible reason why he may be innocent.

I desparately want him to be innocent and cleared. If he is not cleared, I think those of us in the US will get a MUCH reduced Cyclism coverage from OLN which, due to the low ratings, may be looking for an excuse.

1. watch that stage again and if you can honestly tell me that wasn't a hail Mary to gain back time, I don't know what is.
3. do you think that Floyd would stop racing because of a hip replacement? I know several young people who had this procedure done and they say their hip is better than before. If Floyd can win the TDF and other races with a bad hip, can you imagine what he could do with a new one?
4. silly. he couldn't control himself and fix it so he wouldn't be tested?
6. agreed.

I agree once he has the hip replaced he may be better. It is also possible he will never race professionally again. There is no guarantee that all will be well after the surgery. It may be. It may not be. That is what he was facing.

With Basso, Ullrich, Mancebo, & Vino out of the race this was Floyd's best chance to win. I think he was the strongest rider in the race. He had a bad day at the worst possible time. With all of that hanging over his head I can see the temptation.

Richard

I think you are spot on, IF the B sample is positive. Think on this scenario -

1. After Stage 16 the TDF is lost to Floyd in everyone's mind, including his own
2. Proof of (1) is that he went and had 2 beers and "at least" 4 shots of Jack Daniels - NO racer who thought he had a shot at winning would do this. . .
3. To speed his recovery so he can FINISH the TDF he puts the Testo patch on his scrotum (which according to the WSJ, ESPN, etc. . .WILL speed recovery). At this point he knows he won't be tested and is planning to not lose any more time and get a few places back in the TT.
4. Stage 17 starts and he heads out NEVER expecting that they will let him go, but they do.
5. He finishes 1st and gets tested, something he nor anyone thought would happen.
6. The urine test picks up the testo used for his recovery.

If he is guilty this scenario explains it and fits with why. . .IMO.

It would have been easy for him to fade back of Cunego on the last climb if all wanted to do was finish and not get tested.

I don't think he is guilty. I however feel the B sample will match the A Sample.

20 years from now when floyd is fat like lemond, a new study will come out showing how spikes like that can naturally occur. But by then it will be too late.

I don't think he is guilty. I however feel the B sample will match the A Sample.

20 years from now when floyd is fat like lemond, a new study will come out showing how spikes like that can naturally occur. But by then it will be too late.

+1 Just like the inmates being freed from prison after serving 20 years of false accusations because of faulty lab work.

Wow! Was this Floyd’s defense? Jeez - the guy is totally screwed.


* All of the riders in the TdF know that if they are stage winner or tour leader that they will be tested. Had Floyd wanted to dope, he could have chosen something that at least had a chance of getting past the tests. Picking testosterone is just asking for trouble.
They obviously have a technique of using testosterone which is not picked up on tests, just as they do with all other banned substances. They obviously screwed up with the administration on this occasion. Amazingly patronising that he thinks we will believe that the tests pick up everything. How stupid.


* Testosterone was typically used during training to build muscle mass over several months. In the bad old days where the East German swim team used the stuff, they would use it prior to the event, and then stop prior to the event to give the body a chance to restore normal testosterone levels. A sudden spike in levels during an event isn't consistent with typical abuse patterns.

Again, horribly patronising and the desperate statement of a guilty man. Everyone involved in cycling at that level knows that testosterone has begun to be used in small doses during competition to aid recovery. I'll find some links from the doctors on pro teams if people don't believe me.


* Floyd's doctor said that he didn't think that there would even be any benefit to using testosterone on the day of an event.
Floyd's doctor is most likely the guy who prescribed and administered the testosterone patch or cream. I would imagine he really has a pretty good idea of the benefits.

Floyd is just coming up with simplistic arguments to keep the mainstream press and mainstream cycling fans 'believing' in him. It's sad. I would expect him to have a better defense than 'they can detect all usages of doping products in the tests' and 'why would anyone use testosterone anyway?'

Floyd is screwed. I'm more convinced of his guilt that ever now. The sad thing is I now think he's being manipulated by forces larger than himself.

Did you read the NY Times article this morning? Interesting account of how Landis' statments have been inconsistent. Before the positive test, the beer story was" just one beer, I hadn't given up yet") After the positive, at least 2 beers and 4 shots of JD.

Did you read the NY Times article this morning? Interesting account of how Landis' statments have been inconsistent. Before the positive test, the beer story was" just one beer, I hadn't given up yet") After the positive, at least 2 beers and 4 shots of JD.

Interesting. I do the same thing though, I'll say something to match my story before. Not necessarily a lie but inconsistent. He did claim to drink with several teammates so I'm sure Axel Merckx and Robbie Hunter can clear that up.

I want to believe he didn't take anything, but it sure doesn't look good.

<<20 years from now when floyd is fat like lemond, a new study will come out showing how spikes like that can naturally occur. But by then it will be too late.>>

Yes! That is so possible! Maybe even probable....

I'm sure Axel Merckx and Robbie Hunter can clear that up.
Yah - I'd really trust their testimony :)

Say it ain't so, Floyd! Oh. He did. Kind of.

Part of the suspicion has been because Of Floyd's reaction to all this. He has acted guiltily. Changed his story. He should have taken a lesson from the Master (Mr. Armstrong, Sir) and gone on the attack. Announced the result himself. Yelled out his innocence at the top of his lungs. Threatened to sue everybody in sight. Pledged to fight to the last spoke.

He went from the pits to the ultimate high in 24 hours. An emotional and physiological roller coaster. Who knows how all that might have impacted his hormone balance. (But 11:1??)

But ya know, he has acted so guiltily he might not be!

<<20 years from now when floyd is fat like lemond, a new study will come out showing how spikes like that can naturally occur. But by then it will be too late.>>

Yes! That is so possible! Maybe even probable....

And they'll have figured out a way to find out what OTHER dope he was on...

My only problem with this whole story is this: If he did indeed dope, that would really really REALLY suck for me as I was hoping he got some kind of turbo boost from the beer. See, I don't drink much at all any more as I don't want my performance to suffer; and also because beer is chuck full of empty calories. Besides, my metabolism is faster from all the riding that I don't need too much alcohol to be light-headed .. and once that happens, my inhibitions suffer and I may then eat too much etc etc.

So you see, I hope it was the beer & liquor. That way I can be just like Landis and drink beer on a recovery day so I can come back strong on a club ride or a personal "time trial." See, I love beer. And until this whole testosterone news, I was ready to start drinking beer again. Now I have to wait until the truth comes to decide on which direction to swing ..

*sigh*

By the way, can you get testosterone at the local drug store?

so, Mr Landis really expects me to beleive that he went on a boozer 2/3 of the way throgh the alps? like cmon, dont expect me to think that he got toasted then road the stage of a lifetime, especially after comming in bonked and dehydrated? what a load of bollocks.

The Drinking is a moot point, it only affects FEMALES and only for 3 - 4 hours after. his lawyer, his doctor, his team everyone is throwing up a smokescreen trying every angle which i guess they are entitled to but it just looks more damning everytime his bar tab goes up.

Sad thing is he will probably get off. B sample positive and all due to having a crack legal team with little regard for the hard science.

Just admit it Floyd and retire with some dignity intact please.

could be worse, could be blaming it on a masseuse with a vendetta......

I think you are spot on, IF the B sample is positive. Think on this scenario -

1. After Stage 16 the TDF is lost to Floyd in everyone's mind, including his own
2. Proof of (1) is that he went and had 2 beers and "at least" 4 shots of Jack Daniels - NO racer who thought he had a shot at winning would do this. . .
3. To speed his recovery so he can FINISH the TDF he puts the Testo patch on his scrotum (which according to the WSJ, ESPN, etc. . .WILL speed recovery). At this point he knows he won't be tested and is planning to not lose any more time and get a few places back in the TT.
4. Stage 17 starts and he heads out NEVER expecting that they will let him go, but they do.
5. He finishes 1st and gets tested, something he nor anyone thought would happen.
6. The urine test picks up the testo used for his recovery.

If he is guilty this scenario explains it and fits with why. . .IMO.


Interesting theory. However, if I'm FL, sitting there after stage 16 thinking that I blew it, don't really have a chance at the yellow jersey, wouldn't I still want to deliver some kind of victory to the team sponsors? Especially if I know that I am a star time trialist and I know that stage 19 is coming up with the opportunity to at least deliver a stage victory to Phonak. It would still seem like there would be too much risk of detection knowing that if I did win the time trial I would be tested.

I don't know if he doped or not, quite frankly. All I can really make out from all of the "news" accounts (which seem to be about 30-40% rumor) is that there is an anomolous incomplete test result that if confirmed would indicate that he doped. I'm hoping that the A sample test was just a result of a bad testing protocol. It would certainly make the most sense from everything I've read - nothing else seems to really add up.

It was NOT a hail mary to win, it was an attempt to finish without any more damage. Stage 17 was tougher than 16 and if cracked on 16 then he needed 'help' to hold his own.
]


I think this is incredibly silly. Your theory is that he launched the attack to hold on to his 11th place placement? 1) Landis had already finished the TDF in the top ten, finishing this tour in 11th would mean didly to him. Even if he did crack, no real difference between 21st and 11th. 2) Which tactic has the greater risk of a major time loss: a) sit in the pack over the early climbs with a relatively unmotivated peloton, or b) attack 100 miles out? The attack would make zero sense even if the goal was somehow just to limit losses. It is clear beyond cavil that Landis was trying to get a major time gap and get back in the race.

According to this pre-tour interview, testosterone will help recovery. I really can see Landi doing it after stage 16. He had nothing to lose and he needed to recover quickly. They don't test for everything every time and this doctor seems to think you can usually get away with it:


German doctor Kurt Moosburger, who has looked after Jörg Jaksche (among others) for the past two years, has told dpa that he believes that performance enhancing drugs are "indispensable" for high level cycling

In a frank interview, Moosburger pointed to the average speeds of modern professional races, especially hard tours. "The average in last year's Tour was 41 kilometres per hour - that is incredible. You can do a hard Alpine stage without doping. But after that, the muscles are exhausted. You need - depending on your training conditions - up to three days in order to regenerate."

To help recover, testosterone and human growth hormone can be used. "Both are made by the body and are therefore natural substances," he said. "They help to build muscle as well as in muscle recovery."

Dr Moosburger explained how it was done. "You put a standard testosterone patch that is used for male hormone replacement therapy on your scrotum and leave it there for about six hours. The small dose is not sufficient to produce a positive urine result in the doping test, but the body actually recovers faster."

Two years, nine doping scandals: The Phonak legacy
By Tim Maloney, European Editor

The cycling team with the most doping scandals; is this how Phonak will be remembered?
Photo ©: AFP
Although the definitive results of American Floyd Landis' "B" sample from Stage 17 of the 2006 Tour de France are not yet available, and may not be communicated for a few weeks, it's now clear that Phonak can claim the dubious prize as the cycling team with the greatest frequency of doping scandals in the sport.

The first big scandal broke for the Swiss squad just before the 2004 Olympics in Athens, when 1998 world champ Oscar Camenzind was found positive for EPO from a surprise, out of competition test conducted by the UCI. The former postman subsequently retired.

Next up in the scandal sweepstakes for Phonak were American Tyler Hamilton and Spanish rider Santi Perez. After winning a time trial in the 2004 Vuelta a España, the newly crowned Olympic TT champ was controlled positive for blood doping in Athens. Hamilton's Phonak team-mate Santi Perez, who finished second in the '04 Vuelta, was also controlled positive for blood doping when he was checked at home with a surprise test. Both riders were given two year suspensions.

Even though the Swiss squad cleaned house by firing key management in late 2004, last year produced more Phonak doping scandals under new management. First, Slovenian rider Tomas Nose was caught with illicit doping products in his suitcase at the Tour of Georgia, and was fired by Phonak in April. Just before last year's Dauphiné Libéré in June, Spanish rider Santi Gonzalez was found to have high haematocrit in a team check and was fired by Phonak. In August, Fabrizio Guidi tested positive for EPO, but his B sample returned a negative result, so he was cleared, and is still racing with the team.

As 2006 opened, another Phonak rider, Sascha Urweider, was positive for testosterone in March for Phonak's sixth doping issue in less than two years. In June, the news about Spain's "Operación Puerto" broke, heavily implicating Giro d'Italia runner-up Jose Enrique Gutierrez of Spain, nicknamed "El Bufalo", and Colombian Santiago Botero. Phonak quickly suspended both riders, who were slated to be key support riders for Landis at the Tour; Botero has subsequently retired from cycling.

Phonak Scandal Number Nine is the biggest and baddest of them all, as American Floyd Landis has now tested positive for "abnormal" levels of testosterone at the Tour and has been suspended by his team. Landis has said he will now consult Spanish doctor Luis Hernandez, to try to prove to cycling authorities that his elevated testosterone levels are naturally higher than normal. Landis' former teammate Santiago Botero managed to prove he had high testosterone levels in 1999, while Botero was a member of the Kelme team and his team doctor was Dr. Eufemiano Fuentes, the Spanish gynaecologist at the heart of the Operación Puerto investigation.

What is the future of Phonak?

Phonak's President Andy Rihs has already announced that the Swiss hearing aid firm is pulling out as title sponsor. However, this June, San Francisco based Barclay Global Investors, a major financial services firm with over US$ 1.6 trillion under management, announced their iShares Investors unit had signed a three-year deal to take over the Phonak squad's sponsorship from 2007 onwards, estimated at $10 million/year.

USA Cycling President Jim Ochowicz, who works for Thomas Weisel's securities firm as an investment consultant, is also a paid consultant to ARcycling AG, the owner of the Phonak team, and may take over the management of the Swiss squad next year, but those reports remain unconfirmed. But can iShares still sponsor this team with Landis out of the picture?

In a recent interview with Matt Smith of the San Francisco Bay Guardian, iShares CEO Lee Kranefuss seemed to think Phonak was handling the situation with team riders involved with Operación Puerto well, but probably never imagined that the Landis situation would explode around the globe. Talking about the impending team sponsorship earlier this month, Kranefuss said: "We don't want to be affiliated with someone who, in any way... casts a negative shadow that people might associate with [iShares]."

With the huge news of the Landis scandal breaking worldwide, it's hard to believe that the huge Bay Area financial services firm would want to be involved 'in any way' with a team that has the track record of Phonak. Major Swiss publication Blick is already reporting that iShares will pull out, and the team's current management company ARcycling AG will either be sold or dissolved, leaving Switzerland without a ProTour team. If this is the case, the irony will surely not be lost on world cycling's governing body, the UCI, which has its home base in Switzerland.

Obvously this thread was started before they leaked to the press that synthetic testosterone was found in his "A" sample. Pretty much blows the high ratio theory by natural means out of the water.

In case you were wondering, UCI doesn't need the "B" sample to confirm this and sanction Landis.

Crap, this really sucks. Tyler Hamilton is looking like a saint compared to Floyd...

Crap, this really sucks. Tyler Hamilton is looking like a saint compared to Floyd...
Ironically, if you add Basso, Ullrich, Millar, Heras and the 7-timer to the mix, the only real a$$hole among them manages to also be the only one who is not caught.

well, i'm a female and i wanted to test out the theory about drinking before riding.

there have been several occassions where the night before a long ride (friday nights), my hubby and i would have a few drinks, like 3-4 mixed drinks for me. the next morning, i would get up and not feel too well, but would go ahead and meet my riding buddies for our ride. i always thought i wouldn't ride well on these days. but, i usually did just fine and we usually rode for 3-4hours. i never really gave it much thought till now.

now, after all the hoopla about Floyd drinking the night before stage 17, i decided that i would, again, drink the night before a ride, maybe just a little more than i normally drink, and see what the effects were. i did 52miles (3.5hr) last saturday in heat and with hills and i did great. i think, for females, it may help. the days where i didn't have anything to drink the night before, have been my worst days.

tomorrow's ride is a planned 75-80miles in eastern NC (raleigh area) and i'm gonna try the experiment again :) i guess you guys can believe or not, it really doesn't matter either way, just stating my little experiment.

The UCI must wait for the B sample results to release anything at all. They only released that a rider had questionable results and Phonak/Landis and their people have released everything else. The UCI does this to protect themselves from human error in the labs and from lawsuits over slander/libel.

In order to sanction Landis the UCI must confirm that some lab tech didn't mess up or act with alterer motives, thus the B sample with witnesses is necessary to make the sanctions stick. I hope for the sanctity of the anti-doping effort the lab didn't screw up, WADA certified labs need all the trust they can inspire to do their job effectively.

Tyler Hamilton is looking like a saint compared to Floyd...

Cannot agree with that. Hamilton had the blood of (reportedly) five other people in his veins when he was caught. He only got caught because he didn't think they were able to detect that type of blood doping. And, to top it all off, now Hamilton is also implicated in Operation Puerto. And despite that, he's smiling and acting all innocent and victimized. The true victim is Ekimov, whose Olympic gold medal was *stolen* by Hamilton, thanks to the fact that Hamilton's B sample was inadvertently frozen and not able to be used for confirmation of his positive A test. He was dirty then, does not deserve to have that Olympic medal, and is an overall despicable human being for continuing to pretend like he's the victim.

I don't believe Floyd either, but what he did is nothing compared to Hamilton, in my opinion. The testosterone probably didn't even do anything significant to help him win that stage or the Tour.

the true victim is Ekimov, whose Olympic gold medal was *stolen* by Hamilton,
Ekimov is the victim only if he was clean.

It is abundantly clear that there is tons of doping going on that goes undetected despite all the testing, and to perform at the level required to win (or place in the top 10 20 30 40?), doping is also required.

So, I doubt Ekimov is a true victim here. He just didn't get unlucky or sloppy (getting caught), and then lucky (B sample ruined), like Tyler did.

Ekimov is the victim only if he was clean.

It is abundantly clear that there is tons of doping going on that goes undetected despite all the testing, and to perform at the level required to win (or place in the top 10 20 30 40?), doping is also required.

So, I doubt Ekimov is a true victim here. He just didn't get unlucky or sloppy (getting caught), and then lucky (B sample ruined), like Tyler did.

I agree. Oscar Periero's statements about Landis support this idea as well. I don't have a link or exact quote but something to the effect that Landis earned the win and Periero didn't want to be the winner by default (NPR, yesterday).

If you were the guy in second place (and clean!) would you refuse to take the win? Good sportsmanship and friendship I think only goes so far. He's basically saying, "yeah second place is good enough, I didn't really want to win it"...BS for an athlete at that level (maybe he's hoping they don't decide to look more closely at his samples now too!).

I agree. Oscar Periero's statements about Landis support this idea as well. I don't have a link or exact quote but something to the effect that Landis earned the win and Periero didn't want to be the winner by default (NPR, yesterday).

If you were the guy in second place (and clean!) would you refuse to take the win? Good sportsmanship and friendship I think only goes so far. He's basically saying, "yeah second place is good enough, I didn't really want to win it"...BS for an athlete at that level (maybe he's hoping they don't decide to look more closely at his samples now too!).
And I agree with you. What's completely missing in the whole peloton is the outrage from the clean ones regarding all the cheating the dirty ones are doing. Instead, they're acting complicit and downplaying of the cheating by those who are caught. The only rational explanation is that they act complicit because they feel complicit because they are complicit. Witness the outrage that is expressed against those who speak out about the pervasiveness of the problem in cycling (LeMond, Simone) by, for example, Lance Armstrong. What does that tell you?

It's all getting so ugly. To think this was going to be the first 'clean' tour in years...
Said who? Said the organizers - all holding their breath and hoping for the best.

"We're all clean! - Well, I mean, we haven't tested positive yet..."

That's NOT what Pereiro said. The interview is on several sites. He's just saying it would have been better to celebrate it in Paris.

That's NOT what Pereiro said. The interview is on several sites. He's just saying it would have been better to celebrate it in Paris.

Well, ya made me look it up. Now I suppose it's possible they've quoted him wrong (this is not the direct quote but Diana Nyad commenting on Periero's remarks on Marketplace (http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/08/03/PM200608038.html)) but usually they're pretty sharp:
NYAD: "He says, Look, they say they're going to strip this title away from Floyd Landis if he's dirty. They're gonna give me the title. I was out there. He was the best rider this year. He, no matter what they do, it's a bureaucratic decision and he will be the 2006 — Landis — winner of the Tour de France."

I dunno about you but if I was the guy in second place and I found out there was even a hint of the guy in first place doping, I don't think that's something I'd say if I were clean.

Could you post links to the interview? I did not see it on velonews.com or cyclingnews.com but there's a ton of Floyd stuff on both of those to sift through.

Check BBC sports.

I think Pereiro is saying that it's meaningless. It's true that all the images show Landis winning. Landis got to stand on the podium in the yellow jersey. Giving the "win" to Pereiro now is not the same.

What's the advantage to speaking out? Riders want to be attractive to teams so they are not going to stick their necks out. The guys on the podium don't want to move up because they couldn't celebrate it in Paris. It's just a win on paper which is a rip off.

Still:

"One day you shake his hand to congratulate him on the Tour victory, and on the next you're told he's positive," said CSC rider Stuart O'Grady. "If it's really true, then I don't know what to think anymore." (France 3)

Jens Voigt almost ran out of words to describe his feelings. "What shall I say? I'm shocked, horrified, disappointed, that something like this can happen again," he told the dpa.

Fourth-placed Carlos Sastre of Team CSC might make that jump onto the podium, after all. "I have a lot of respect for him, and I keep that respect until the result of the second test," he said. "But it really is very bad news." (France 3)

Andreas Kl&#246;den doesn't want to be congratulated on possibly moving up to a second place in the Tour de France. "I don't want to win the Tour this way," he said, adding, "If the B-sample substantiates the results, then I will feel cheated."

Kl&#246;den and former teammate Erik Zabel talked to the German press agency dpa before the Nacht von Hannover race Friday. According to Kl&#246;den, "Out of 1000 athletes, there are a few black sheep." The grace period is over," said Zabel. "It can't go on this way. A lot has to happen."

And I agree with you. What's completely missing in the whole peloton is the outrage from the clean ones regarding all the cheating the dirty ones are doing. Instead, they're acting complicit and downplaying of the cheating by those who are caught. The only rational explanation is that they act complicit because they feel complicit because they are complicit. Witness the outrage that is expressed against those who speak out about the pervasiveness of the problem in cycling (LeMond, Simone) by, for example, Lance Armstrong. What does that tell you?

Gotta be true "clean ones" for the outrage to be real... can it be that the whole peloton is guilty as you say... man that sucks... ruins my whole vision of cycle racing.

Check BBC sports.

I think Pereiro is saying that it's meaningless. It's true that all the images show Landis winning. Landis got to stand on the podium in the yellow jersey. Giving the "win" to Pereiro now is not the same.

In ten years, only the name in the record books will matter.

In ten years, only the name in the record books will matter.

Bingo, and in 20 you won't even be able to find that anything unusual had happened unless you specifically go looking for it.

Evidence there has been a tour where the winner was DQ'd after the fact and writers (as in guys who get paid to write) are saying that if it happens now it will be the first time.

I dunno about you but if I was the guy in second place and I found out there was even a hint of the guy in first place doping, I don't think that's something I'd say if I were clean.

That was my first thought too.

Let's just say they're all guilty and Floyd's being hung out to dry for their sins. (not just his)
Please do not take this comment as refute of his guilt.

He said he was the strongest guy, and I think he won straight up.

Ekimov is the victim only if he was clean.

It is abundantly clear that there is tons of doping going on that goes undetected despite all the testing, and to perform at the level required to win (or place in the top 10 20 30 40?), doping is also required.

So, I doubt Ekimov is a true victim here. He just didn't get unlucky or sloppy (getting caught), and then lucky (B sample ruined), like Tyler did.

This is exactly what keeps me amused! Time and time again, I see people posting that they all are doping. All of them. 100%. And yet somehow, it only becomes an outrage when 1 gets caught.

So I guess the real problem here (sarcastic) is not actually doping but the testing. Maybe they just need to stop testing. The sport has done what I think is a laughably bad job of policing itself and also seems to be very arbitrary in the people it singles out as dopers. Maybe it doesn't deserve any attention at all.

I don't think anyone, including the UCI, knows what the hell is in his urine, but I am really starting to wonder what difference does it make if they all are doing whatever he MAY have been doing (and worse).

It seems unlikely that there will ever be any conclusions about the Landis case. But really, why hasn't the sport done better than to smear people.

Astana's 5 riders have been cleared. I am sure Vino is so gratified to know that so that he can now go ride the stages with his team.

FMP