Road Cycling - Dura-Ace 2004 official specifications!

As found on www.lancearmstrong.com :

2/15 ~ HOT! Let the speculation begin! We're finally allowed to let you know the first official word from Shimano on their next generation road group.

Dura Ace®, will be completely renewed. The new 10-speed system has been developed under the concept of Speed, Smooth and Strength and this will be reflected in the product with its super-light weight, high durability and high efficiency. There will be no need to modify frame dimensions to accommodate New Dura Ace®.

That's all? I was seriously hoping for some revolutions like the new XTR, with pictures and stuff. I hope they'll come out real soon. 2004 is next year, a long time to wait if I would say.

Who cares!?! It is only Shimano. If you've not noticed, Campy has had a 10-speed for several years. Japanese tend to be copy-cats. Then they refine. They are anything but original. Campy is and always has been the real deal. Campy Rules!

I guess I would interpret that as an implicit statement that 10 cogs is the upper limit using the current technology.

Wait a minute, PS! What about STI/Ergo? Personally, I'm not a big fan of innovation for it's own sake, or specifically for the purpose of obsoleting "last years technology," (which is to Campy's credit, IMO), but your statement is particularly inappropriate in a Shimano vs Campy context.

If you've not noticed, Campy has had a 10-speed for several years. Japanese tend to be copy-cats. Then they refine. They are anything but original.

You know what they say, 'Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery'...;)

that cool's, that means I have to buy the 10 of shimano, I was thinking on going to Record 10, but shimano has it, wilkl wait for awhile then see and study the product reviews on that one....:beer:

Are they doing it with 130mm or 135mm spacing? I hope they go 135 so all the bike makers can go with 135mm drop out spacing. That way customers can use any rear hub they want.

Originally posted by cycletourist
Are they doing it with 130mm or 135mm spacing? I hope they go 135 so all the bike makers can go with 135mm drop out spacing. That way customers can use any rear hub they want. You didn't read the last sentence of the original post?Does campy 10 use 135?

Campy 10-speed is currently 130mm. Not sure what their '05 electric shift 10-speed will be, though.

Actually, I think that both are excellent, very high quality products. Just grew up using Campy and like to stick with the smaller guy. Shimano is like Trek. Big and getting bigger. They need the competition.

Hmm... I was told Campy 8/9/10 speed was 135mm. They aren't?

Originally posted by cycletourist
Hmm... I was told Campy 8/9/10 speed was 135mm. They aren't? NO...just more applsauce.

Interesting. I was told this at a bike shop when I was building up a frame a couple years back. I wanted to use Campy hubs but the bike shop owner said, "You can't- campy is 135mm and your frame is 130mm. You have to use Shimano." Maybe he lied so I would buy the Shimano stuff he already had in stock? If that was his plan, it worked :-/

Originally posted by cycletourist
Interesting. I was told this at a bike shop when I was building up a frame a couple years back. I wanted to use Campy hubs but the bike shop owner said, "You can't- campy is 135mm and your frame is 130mm. You have to use Shimano." Maybe he lied so I would buy the Shimano stuff he already had in stock? If that was his plan, it worked :-/ Do you think bike manufacturers would make different rear triangles just for campy and another for shimano? When 8 speed came available with 130 spacing and 7 speed bikes were still being offered,manufactueres standardized on 130 road spacing even for bikes equipped with 7 speed rears.Ihave had both shimano 8 speed and campy 10 on the same frame...same drpout spacing. Just no end to the LBS applesauce.

I wonder if the 10 speed is going to trickle down, or if they are going to keep ultegra a 9-speed setup. If they do that, think of the DUra-ace clearence sales!! Dura-ace for phatman!

In due time the 9 speed D.A. would be a lot cheaper, or I might be speaking to early

Campy is now 10-speed from top to bottom of their offerings, so would imagine that Shimano will also do the same. No reason to make two different sets of everything. But having said that, as the cheaper stuff is made in China, it probably doesn't make much difference, other than inventory logistics. Might even see 10-speed trickle down to MTB with Shimano.

I have heard bad things about the durability of Campy chains, so I don't think that 10 speed MTB will be seen for a while. Also, I wonder if the current 8-9 speed hubs will work with the 10 speed cassette. I don't see why not, they are the same hub spacing (130mm) hmm. We need like a shimano rep in here to leak us info :D

Crap...That means I need to get DA this year, because it'll probably be sky high next year.

I’m currently in the serious purchase mode for a complete new bike. On the other hand, maybe I should wait until the new 10-speed Dura-Ace comes out.

I’m riding a 12 year old Specialized Carbon Epic w/Shimano 105 right now. Do you feel it’s worth waiting for the new 10-speed Dura-Ace? I hate buying something and shortly thereafter something new comes out that’s better. What do you people think? Wait for new, or buy what’s out right now?

If you guys look at the STI shifter on Lance's bike on the Sports Illustrated mag about him being the SI sportsman of the year, you'll notice the lever has a different design than current Dura Ace. I wonder if 2004 will have that design.

Originally posted by cycletourist
I wanted to use Campy hubs but the bike shop owner said, "You can't- campy is 135mm and your frame is 130mm. You have to use Shimano." Maybe he lied so I would buy the Shimano stuff he already had in stock? If that was his plan, it worked :-/

I have Campy Mirage '95 8 speed for 135 dropouts. According to the tech specs, higher groupsets also offered this option. The latest catalogue only features 130mm, so maybe he wasnt lieing.

Worryingly, the latest FAQs on Campy website say that they are designed for racing use on smoothe tarmac only with a weight limit of 80kg. I have it in writing from Campy tech dept that the hubs are suitable for extended loaded touring. Have the hubs suddenly got weaker?

I was just about to plop down for a new wheelset when i heard the 2004 news.

Does anyone have reliable info on whether or not the new10 speed cassette whil fit on current rear hubs? Shimano let us off easy with the 8-to-9 speed change, so I would not be surprised if they stick it to us this time.

Seems a shame that alot of nice 9 speed wheelsets will become "obsolete" in less than a year.

Any thoughts on this are eagerly awaited.:D

Campy has achieved 10Speed with current spacing without anty relaibility or longevity issues. Shimano would be foolish to try and make the most used component group in the pro peloton obsolete, forcing frame builders to adopt a new std.

Also if someone does go wider then they will introduce foot clearance problems with the chainstays which already have to make some difficult and expensive curves to accomodate heel clearance.

My guess it will stay as is and the 10S will be achieved by thinner chains, sprockets and spacers. Longevity issues will be dealt with by clever metallurgy

Originally posted by ParamountScapin
Who cares!?! It is only Shimano. If you've not noticed, Campy has had a 10-speed for several years. Japanese tend to be copy-cats. Then they refine. They are anything but original. Campy is and always has been the real deal. Campy Rules!

I actually like both Shimano and Campy. You must not have been a road rider very long. It was Shimano that 1st combined shift and brake levers, Campy copied. It was Shimano that 1st developed 8 and then 9 speed rears even though Campy copied it and in one case beat them to market. It was Shimano that 1st developed multi-pivot brakes, Campy copied years later. Shimano developed hollow-tech, Campy never was able to copy that. Shimano developed the 8 splinned bb spindle that Campy never copied. Speaking as one of the many crash victims of breaking Campy spindles, Campy should have copied that. Shimano back in 1979 developed the freehub, Campy copied that well over 10 years later.

So who's the copycat now, huh??

Originally posted by Robtaylor1613
I was just about to plop down for a new wheelset when i heard the 2004 news.

Does anyone have reliable info on whether or not the new10 speed cassette whil fit on current rear hubs? Shimano let us off easy with the 8-to-9 speed change, so I would not be surprised if they stick it to us this time.

Seems a shame that alot of nice 9 speed wheelsets will become "obsolete" in less than a year.

Any thoughts on this are eagerly awaited.:D

Wait until Velo News announces the specs in early May on the freehubs. I've seen quotes from the engineer at Shimano saying they've been very careful to maintain compatibility with 9 speed. They've heard complaints about the lack of upward compatibility and have taken them seriously this time round. Some of us would actually prefer they match the Campy 10 speed demensions to provide cross-manufacturer product compatability. We can only hope for that.

I don't believe that splined bottom brackets are an improvement. I think Shimano did that to stop bike makers from using no-name bottom brackets. Remember Shimano maintains their dominance by NOT being compatible with other brands.

I f I look at the opportunities that the splined system has opened up I think it has been an improvement.
The XTR system is much stiffer and lighter than a conventional bb/crank layout.
And the bearings being outboard, creates less bending and therefore stress on the bearing resulting inlonger life. And the bearing are replacable.

PersonallyI think Shimano has really taken the bull by the horns and wrestled road racing into the space age. Campagnolo is still the most sought after component groip but for pure function and value for money I'd go for Dura ACe.

Originally posted by cycletourist
I don't believe that splined bottom brackets are an improvement. I think Shimano did that to stop bike makers from using no-name bottom brackets. Remember Shimano maintains their dominance by NOT being compatible with other brands.

Depends on your perspective. I wound up face down nearly sliding under a moving SUV because my Campy Record spindle broke even though it had never been crashed on before. From that perspective, the far stronger design of the round splined approach without stress risers right at the bearing seems far superior and I have yet to hear of one breaking suddenly like that. The flat bevels on the Campy end right at the bearing. I researched it after the crash and broken bbs are fairly common with Campy Record bbs.

That sounds like poor design on Campy's part. Not necessarily a problem with tapered bottom brackets in general. Phil Wood bottom brackets have tapered spindles... when was the last time somebody broke one of those?

BTW- I'm not against splined bottom brackets. I just wonder about Shimano's reason for doing it.

Originally posted by cycletourist
That sounds like poor design on Campy's part. Not necessarily a problem with tapered bottom brackets in general. Phil Wood bottom brackets have tapered spindles... when was the last time somebody broke one of those?

BTW- I'm not against splined bottom brackets. I just wonder about Shimano's reason for doing it.

I think your right, it easily could be a manufacturer problem. It could be a manufacturing process. I've noticed a variation in how the spindle is placed into the bearing on Campy Records (since I obviously have owned more then 1). Some have the tapers end several millimeters before the bearing, some have the tapers end right at the bearing. The one that broke was right at the bearing where the stress is the greatest on the spindle.

By the way, I actually still have Campy Record components except with a DA crankset and an Ultegra bb. The DA bb is not true sealed cartidge bearings and is a headache to maintain. The Ultegra is cartridge bearing. I switched after a 2nd crash when the Campy Record crankset broke too, which was also never crashed on.

Campag or Shimano? Steel or Alloy? Does it really matter? No! Whatever works for you is what's best, pure and simple. However for the record, while I use DuraAce on my main bike, it will never be as beautiful as the Super Record on my Colnago. It just works better!

Two questions, whats the big deal with 10 speeds? I have 9 now and never use more than 5 of them. Also is Dura Ace that much better than Ultegra? The Ultegra drive train I use is amazingly crisp and gives very clean fast shifts. I cannot imagine anything being al that much better.

Is DA2004 10 or 11 Speed? I just got some info that Campy actually has a patent on 10 speed which tends to suggest DA will be 11, despite what some of the trade rags are now saying.

One ugly thing I found out about Campy 10, they don't include the lock ring with the cassette, it's part of the hub set. I just tried to convert from 9 to 10 speed Campy and didn't get the lock ring. I was so annouyed with Campy I decided to wait and buy the whole DA group come 2004 instead of staying with Campy. I returned the Campy 10 Speed stuff.

I mean, $165 for a steel/Ti cassette and they can't include the lock ring?!, what a brain fart.

Originally posted by ParamountScapin
Who cares!?! It is only Shimano. If you've not noticed, Campy has had a 10-speed for several years. Japanese tend to be copy-cats. Then they refine. They are anything but original. Campy is and always has been the real deal. Campy Rules!


Index shifting
Shifting on the brake hoods

Who imitated who?

You can bet that campy will imitate Hyperglide once the patent ends.

You can see the 2004 Dura-Ace stuff on bicycletest.com

I was planning on purchasing a new bike this spring. Now, after reading that review I'll be waiting until the new 2004 Dura-Ace is available on production bikes before making any kind of purchase.

I hate buying something and then shortly thereafter something new comes out that makes your purchase obsolete and/or outdated.

Yet another reason to do more research on different frame manufacturers. Oh the choices!

I love it when they come out with new stuff. The old stuff is reasonable a month or two later. At least, that's the theory I've been operating under.

I have yet to have any luck getting XTR brakes for the MTB, though, and the new XTR stuff has been out for a little while. Of course, my search hasn't exactly been diligent.

You have'nt able to fing XTR stuff!!?? check JensonUSA. I've had mine since January!!

In terms of function there is little to distinguish Campy 10 speed from DA 9S except the extra sprocket. Each has it's advantages and hence appeal. There is no real better group set. I have XTR onmy MTB and Record on my Road bike Veloce on my training bike and really i can't feel a difference in quality. Shimano traditionally shifts lighter but also does not last as long. Their stuff looks more industrial though.
Campy is great, DA is great XTR is great, at this level of quality It really is impossible to tell the difference. The only difference exits in our minds. Those who love Campy will always say it's best. Those who love what Shimano offers will always say it is better. and both camps are right. Each group appeals to different people and that natural. neither is better.

I think the real difference lies in the entry level market where I really believe that Campagnolo has better groups. But at the top Who cares, you've arrived, whether on Record or Dura Ace, you're using what the pro's use. REVEL in it.

Originally posted by OldRoady
Is DA2004 10 or 11 Speed? I just got some info that Campy actually has a patent on 10 speed which tends to suggest DA will be 11, despite what some of the trade rags are now saying.

One ugly thing I found out about Campy 10, they don't include the lock ring with the cassette, it's part of the hub set. I just tried to convert from 9 to 10 speed Campy and didn't get the lock ring. I was so annouyed with Campy I decided to wait and buy the whole DA group come 2004 instead of staying with Campy. I returned the Campy 10 Speed stuff.

I mean, $165 for a steel/Ti cassette and they can't include the lock ring?!, what a brain fart.

nope - no patent on 10 speed. You can't patent ideas.

LIke I said, Tim, my search hasn't really been diligent. I've got to get a fork on the road bike before I get new MTB brakes.

what fork have you decided on? Ouzo Pro?

Ooohh. Can't wait to get that for my bike next year!