Professional Cycling For the Fans - Synthetic testosterone found in Landis urine sample

Do any doctors know - if you ate a lot of soy, could some of the testosterone in it be excreted in your urine?

Come on guys, haven't you ever heard of a Tennessee White Russian? Jack Daniels with soy milk. If Landis did about 24 of them, then? And there is the oft repeated incident where he and Zabriski did a couple dozen esspresso's. Could they have actually have been skinny Latte's with Soy milk?

doesn't landis have a thyroid problem? does he take synthetic thyroid hormone? if so, i highly doubt he was drinking soy milk, as soy interferes with the synthetic hormone and is contraindicated in people who take it.

doesn't landis have a thyroid problem? does he take synthetic thyroid hormone? if so, i highly doubt he was drinking soy milk, as soy interferes with the synthetic hormone and is contraindicated in people who take it.
Only when you drink it at the same time that you take the medication, which you should take one hour before eating anyway.


Certain foods may decrease absorption of this medication when taken at the same time. Take levothyroxine separately from: soybean flour (soybean infant formula), walnuts, dietary fiber. Do not start or stop any medicine without doctor or pharmacist approval.
http://www.medicinenet.com/levothyroxine-oral/page3.htm

kid - could you elaborate on that some more? What would be the consequences of combining thyroid hormone with soy? Are there any other effects you know of that it might have on testosterone metabolism?

the standard argument is to not take the drug at teh same time as soy products, and is defnitely how the label is written. but i work with clinical pharmacologists who would advise not taking soy while taking thyroid hormone. as with many things medical, you will find other opinions. just as you will find some drs say to not take a certain drug within X hrs of taking grapefruit, but again, the clin pharm folks i deal with say, don't drink or eat grapefruit while on those meds. and more current drug labels or protocols for experimental drug trials are being written to reflect that. i guess in the end, i'm just saying i think hoping this might be soy related is grasping at some straws.

as to the effects with testosterone, that i can't elaborate more on than has been said. it isn't something i deal with as much since i don't usually deal with patients on testosterone, as opposed to ones on thyroxine.

and i'm a phd toxicologist, to clear that up. :)

Has any other paper reported this? Not reported that the NY Times reported this but actually reported this.

From cycling news


"We continue to maintain the same line of defence: the positive must be due to an endogenous production of testosterone, and in addition we understand that the detection method is not trustworthy in proving whether the origin is exogenous," said Luis Sanz, who, along with Buxeda and Howard Jacobs, forms part of Landis' legal defence.

i.e. his defense are now admitting that the test for exo was positive, but they are contesting the accuracy of the test, just as they are contesting everything...

classical lawyer's approach: if you can't dispute the evidence itself, argue the way the evidence was gathered.

The easy way to check it out is to test the other B samples of his that were taken during the race for exogenous testosterone. If they all come up positive then he's guilty. If they don't have exogenous testosterone then something hokey is going on. I know it's probably already been stated.

Testosterone doesn't just leave the system like EPO it would be around for days.

The easy way to check it out is to test the other B samples of his that were taken during the race for exogenous testosterone. If they all come up positive then he's guilty. If they don't have exogenous testosterone then something hokey is going on. I know it's probably already been stated.

Testosterone doesn't just leave the system like EPO it would be around for days.
I thought the half life of testosterone in the body was one hour.

Anyway, the testers have a protocol. The protocol is, if the T/E is higher than 4:1, then test for exo testosterone. The T/E was apparently not higher than 4:1 in the other other samples, so the protocol does not call for the exo testosterone.

To go against protocol and test those other samples for exo testosterone they have to have a reason. One reason to do so is because they are asked to do it by Landis.

As far as I can tell, the last thing he wants is more testing of anything that came out of him during the Tour. Note his delay in asking for the B sample to be tested for the T/E ratio. This is all consistent with someone who doped according to a program designed for the doping to go undetected given the known protocol.

To put things in perspective, check out the lead story on cyclingnews.com right about Ullrich, and how unbelievable the program is to some German doping expert. Of course, Ullrich denies it all. Unfortunately, that appears to be the norm in the peloton.

They also have a protocol for testing the B sample and then releasing all the facts. These leaks and speculation are worse for the sport than the doping.

They also have a protocol for testing the B sample and then releasing all the facts. These leaks and speculation are worse for the sport than the doping.


You're joking, right?

They also have a protocol for testing the B sample and then releasing all the facts. These leaks and speculation are worse for the sport than the doping.
That's false. I'm beginning to think you're a plant from the Landis legal team, because you're repeating their desperate arguments.

Testing the B sample is optional - the rider's choice. The protocol is to notify the rider's team of an A sample postive result. That's an official result in and of itself. When they did, Phonak chose to suspend Landis from riding and to announce that it was him.

The only leak from the testers was to notify the press that one of the tdf riders tested positive. There is no speculation. That his results were 11:1 T/E ratio and they found synthetic testosterone in his urine is fact reported to Phonak and the UCI, per protocol, not speculation. That these facts were then relayed by Phonak, the UCI and Landis' legal team to the press is also not speculation.

I don't think you'll find a bigger Landis fan than me. I've been following him and predicting a Tour podium finish since 2001. I am heart broken over all this. Perhaps I've always been a little naive about human nature and always hoped for the best. But this is too much. It's time to get our heads out of the sand. Tyler, Basso, Ullrich, Mancebo, Millar, Roberto, Armstrong, Indurain, LeMond, Anquetil, Merckx (both of them), Levi, all of them, they all doped. They have to dope, because they're all so evenly matched that when any of them dope, all of them have to dope in order to be able to finish within 3 or so hours of the fastest guy after 3 weeks of brutal racing over unbelievable mountain passes.

It's not about Floyd. It's about bicycling racing, and the widespread prevalance of doping. Not a little cheating once in a while. But constant and pervasive use by ALL of them all of the time. Floyd (and Tyler and Basso and Ullrich and everybody who got caught) just got a little unlucky or sloppy. That's why they got caught, not because they're aberrations.

A press release is not a leak, it is a press release.

The UCI claimed on day one that when a questionable test arises it must be either confirmed or the results accepted by the athlete- "The adverse analytical finding received this morning relates to the first analysis, and will have to be confirmed either by a counter analysis required by the rider, or by the fact that the rider renounces that counter analysis,"

Also, the details of said test are to be kept confidential by the UCI- "The World Anti-doping Code and the Anti-doping Rules of the UCI do not allow to make the name of the concerned rider public, as well as other information that may allow its identification until the end of the results management provided by the Anti-doping Rules of the UCI as well as the World Anti-doping Code."

The UCI has thus refrained from saying anything officially since Wednesday the 26th of July. Tomorrow, after the B sample the UCI's position visa-vi the Landis case change and the UCI can release a lot more details as it builds its case against him (assuming the results are the same). That is, except at least one UCI official (as reported by the AP) who felt it necessary to release information to the press without the permission of the UCI (a leak). This leak was then, according to the NY Times, confirmed by Landis' doctor, KAY.

Since Wednesday these boards have been flying with speculation based on press releases, leaks, news reports and personal insights. All I am asking is for people to allow the system to work and to allow that they don't know the whole story yet (as it isn't complete).

Leakers undermine any system, sometimes leaks are necessary to the process of justice and the good they do outweighs their harm but in this case we have leaks before the conclusion of an ongoing investigation- not about the miscarriage of justice but rather just some juicy details. Where is the greater good served?

Doping is bad and bad for the sport, however, a complete lack of respect and trust in the UCI is worse for the sport.

Okay, there is the lab protocol and the UCI protocol. I don't know whether the lab notifies the team/rider directly, or whether they notify UCI and the UCI notifies the team, but, either way, the UCI protocol is to wait for the team/rider to respond to the A results before they announce anything about the rider specifically.

But if the team and rider choose to go public before the B test is even requested, what protocol are you saying was not followed?

That's false. I'm beginning to think you're a plant from the Landis legal team, because you're repeating their desperate arguments.

Testing the B sample is optional - the rider's choice. The protocol is to notify the rider's team of an A sample postive result. That's an official result in and of itself. When they did, Phonak chose to suspend Landis from riding and to announce that it was him.

The only leak from the testers was to notify the press that one of the tdf riders tested positive. There is no speculation. That his results were 11:1 T/E ratio and they found synthetic testosterone in his urine is fact reported to Phonak and the UCI, per protocol, not speculation. That these facts were then relayed by Phonak, the UCI and Landis' legal team to the press is also not speculation.

I don't think you'll find a bigger Landis fan than me. I've been following him and predicting a Tour podium finish since 2001. I am heart broken over all this. Perhaps I've always been a little naive about human nature and always hoped for the best. But this is too much. It's time to get our heads out of the sand. Tyler, Basso, Ullrich, Mancebo, Millar, Roberto, Armstrong, Indurain, LeMond, Anquetil, Merckx (both of them), Levi, all of them, they all doped. They have to dope, because they're all so evenly matched that when any of them dope, all of them have to dope in order to be able to finish within 3 or so hours of the fastest guy after 3 weeks of brutal racing over unbelievable mountain passes.

It's not about Floyd. It's about bicycling racing, and the widespread prevalance of doping. Not a little cheating once in a while. But constant and pervasive use by ALL of them all of the time. Floyd (and Tyler and Basso and Ullrich and everybody who got caught) just got a little unlucky or sloppy. That's why they got caught, not because they're aberrations.
Bingo. It ain't the French, it ain't l'Équipe (not to say they are saints), it ain't the US, it ain't the Tour. It's cycling (and track and field, and football, and swimming, and...). It's more visible in some sports, it's more visible in some events, but it's pervasive. You don't hear about it in US baseball, basketball and football, because the level of testing is very low. Bring UCI protocols to pro football, you'll forget about Floyd and Lance in a flash, they will disappear in an ocean of failed tests, and Sports Illustrated will run out of paper. Pro football in Europe (soccer to us N.Americans) is only scratching the surface now, and it's ugly too.

That's it. Illegal performance enhancement is PERVASIVE at the highest levels (and lower) in all sports.

The only question is whether the testing they do accomplishes anything other than randomly selecting whose career gets ruined.

Landis is pretty much guilty, isn't he?

Landis is pretty much guilty, isn't he?
The tragedy is that he is no more guilty than all of his competitors. He just got unlucky or a little sloppy and so got caught.

While assuming innocence of those not proven guilty is normally a valid and just approach, I think doing so with respect to doping in cycling and other sports is blinding us to the ugly realities.

In other words, assuming only those who are found guilty of doping are the only ones who are doping is giving us a very false impression of what is going on. In particular, it's making us assume that they're all clean when the reality is probably that none of them are.

Maybe doping should be viewed as a tool, like the latest bike technology. That way we could all enjoy the sport and drop all the cat and mouse games.

Maybe doping should be viewed as a tool, like the latest bike technology. That way we could all enjoy the sport and drop all the cat and mouse games.
The flipside is that research has shown that top level athletes would be willing to use performance enhancement even if it killed them within a year, if it made them champion in their respective sport.

These guys are off the scale in more ways than one.

So, the compromise seems to be: testing and doping in a manner that is not detected is part of the sport. Kind of like speeding on highways. The speed limit is 55. You can get away with 65, but the faster you go the higher the risk of getting caught and penalized.

Floyd risked going 90 and got caught, while everyone else was going 85...

I think doping is used more for training than competition. These guys train at such ridiculously high levels. 6-8 hours a day is going to take it's toll and doping helps them to recover and maintain this level. I would like it if cycling were clean because I don't think they should have to do this to their bodies to win, but I agree that we are the losers when we have to watch second rate riders race or deal with all this post-race B.S.

I don't believe there is any physiological difference in the effects of blood doping and sleeping every night in an oxygen deprivation chamber. Both could be unhealthy but increase your capacity to carry oxygen. I think, given the reliance on every other kind of science in cycling - from nutrition to aerodynamics - that's it's a little silly to be so shocked at doping.

I thought the half life of testosterone in the body was one hour.

Anyway, the testers have a protocol. The protocol is, if the T/E is higher than 4:1, then test for exo testosterone. The T/E was apparently not higher than 4:1 in the other other samples, so the protocol does not call for the exo testosterone.

To go against protocol and test those other samples for exo testosterone they have to have a reason. One reason to do so is because they are asked to do it by Landis.

As far as I can tell, the last thing he wants is more testing of anything that came out of him during the Tour. Note his delay in asking for the B sample to be tested for the T/E ratio. This is all consistent with someone who doped according to a program designed for the doping to go undetected given the known protocol.

To put things in perspective, check out the lead story on cyclingnews.com right about Ullrich, and how unbelievable the program is to some German doping expert. Of course, Ullrich denies it all. Unfortunately, that appears to be the norm in the peloton.

Delay? His attorney in Madrid filed the request on the third business day when he actually had 5 available.

If he's guilty of doping between stage 16 and 17, he'd want more testing as the short half-life of testosterone in the body would have it out of the system by the stage 19 test with nothing yet in the system at the time of the stage 15 test.

Maybe doping should be viewed as a tool, like the latest bike technology. That way we could all enjoy the sport and drop all the cat and mouse games.

Liggett: "Landis angrily rips his testosterone patch from his scrotum (graphic similar to heartbeat monitor this year shows T:E ratio at 4,000:1) as he looks back on Basso whose steely gaze does not register the sting of the needle from the blood doping injection his team doctor is administering as the doc leans out of the team car window. "You really have to admire the skillful CSC doping doctor"

Sherwin: "The best in the business. I believe he has fielded many offers from Discovery, but he since he emerged as a leader from the Phonak Doping Training Camp last summer he's been loyal to CSC" Phil, I think the time limit allowed for holding on to a car door during an injection is 45 seconds. Basso's taking a chance here."

Trautwig (frustration showing on his face): "Look, Hincapie just pulled a syringe from his mussette bag as he passes through the doping zone, but I can't make out what it is because the French cameraman isn't showing it." (shot cuts away to show French domestique washing a bottle of pills down with champagne)."

Bobke: "T-Mobile is once again on the cutting edge with Jan Ullrich's new quadraceps implanted from horses. The hot pink IV bag is a nice touch and it's NOT filled with Gatorade!" (All announcers guffaw).

Testing the B sample is optional - the rider's choice. The protocol is to notify the rider's team of an A sample postive result. That's an official result in and of itself. When they did, Phonak chose to suspend Landis from riding and to announce that it was him.

The only leak from the testers was to notify the press that one of the tdf riders tested positive. There is no speculation. That his results were 11:1 T/E ratio and they found synthetic testosterone in his urine is fact reported to Phonak and the UCI, per protocol, not speculation. That these facts were then relayed by Phonak, the UCI and Landis' legal team to the press is also not speculation.

....Wrong.

Okay, there is the lab protocol and the UCI protocol. I don't know whether the lab notifies the team/rider directly, or whether they notify UCI and the UCI notifies the team, but, either way, the UCI protocol is to wait for the team/rider to respond to the A results before they announce anything about the rider specifically.Wrong again.


But if the team and rider choose to go public before the B test is even requested, what protocol are you saying was not followed?The UCI violated its own Anti-Doping Rules.

Liggett: "Landis angrily rips his testosterone patch from his scrotum (graphic similar to heartbeat monitor this year shows T:E ratio at 4,000:1) as he looks back on Basso whose steely gaze does not register the sting of the needle from the blood doping injection his team doctor is administering as the doc leans out of the team car window. "You really have to admire the skillful CSC doping doctor"

Sherwin: "The best in the business. I believe he has fielded many offers from Discovery, but he since he emerged as a leader from the Phonak Doping Training Camp last summer he's been loyal to CSC" Phil, I think the time limit allowed for holding on to a car door during an injection is 45 seconds. Basso's taking a chance here."

Trautwig (frustration showing on his face): "Look, Hincapie just pulled a syringe from his mussette bag as he passes through the doping zone, but I can't make out what it is because the French cameraman isn't showing it." (shot cuts away to show French domestique washing a bottle of pills down with champagne)."

Bobke: "T-Mobile is once again on the cutting edge with Jan Ullrich's new quadraceps implanted from horses. The hot pink IV bag is a nice touch and it's NOT filled with Gatorade!" (All announcers guffaw).

U telling me u wouldn't watch that?

Liggett: "Landis angrily rips his testosterone patch from his scrotum (graphic similar to heartbeat monitor this year shows T:E ratio at 4,000:1) as he looks back on Basso whose steely gaze does not register the sting of the needle from the blood doping injection his team doctor is administering as the doc leans out of the team car window. "You really have to admire the skillful CSC doping doctor"

Sherwin: "The best in the business. I believe he has fielded many offers from Discovery, but he since he emerged as a leader from the Phonak Doping Training Camp last summer he's been loyal to CSC" Phil, I think the time limit allowed for holding on to a car door during an injection is 45 seconds. Basso's taking a chance here."

Trautwig (frustration showing on his face): "Look, Hincapie just pulled a syringe from his mussette bag as he passes through the doping zone, but I can't make out what it is because the French cameraman isn't showing it." (shot cuts away to show French domestique washing a bottle of pills down with champagne)."

Bobke: "T-Mobile is once again on the cutting edge with Jan Ullrich's new quadraceps implanted from horses. The hot pink IV bag is a nice touch and it's NOT filled with Gatorade!" (All announcers guffaw).

Sherwin: "Fuentes leans out the Ishares team car to give Tyler a fresh transfusion on the descent in prepartion for the upcoming pair of UC climbs. Tyler crashes-he looks like he's hurt Phil."

Liggett: "Thats a shame Paul. All Fuentes hard work looks to have gone to waste with another of Tyler's crashes. "

Bobke: "It looks like on the descent Floyd has taken the lead. His 5000 W brushless DC powered transplanted hip has enabled him to descend faster than Jan given Jan's being overly tentative in avoiding pedal strike in the curves with those 350mm cranks necessitated by the transplant. But Floyds reserve meter is reading low, so the team car is racing to catch Floyd so they can switch out NiNa battery packs and plug them into the hip for the next climb."

Trautwig: "It appears team doctor Ferrari and team manager Mancebo are arguing in the team car over which steroid to apply to the domestiques for the next climb."

Sherwin: "Fuentes leans out the Ishares team car to give Tyler a fresh transfusion on the descent in prepartion for the upcoming pair of UC climbs. Tyler crashes-he looks like he's hurt Phil."

Liggett: "Thats a shame Paul. All Fuentes hard work looks to have gone to waste with another of Tyler's crashes. "

Bobke: "It looks like on the descent Floyd has taken the lead. His 5000 W brushless DC powered transplanted hip has enabled him to descend faster than Jan given Jan's being overly tentative in avoiding pedal strike in the curves with those 350mm cranks necessitated by the transplant. But Floyds reserve meter is reading low, so the team car is racing to catch Floyd so they can switch out NiNa battery packs and plug them into the hip for the next climb."

Trautwig: "It appears team doctor Ferrari and team manager Mancebo are arguing in the team car over which steroid to apply to the domestiques for the next climb."


Now THAT is a BALL GAME! Of course the sponsors would be the various drug companys...

"This steroid moment brought to you by Smith Glaxo Kline... makers of EPO and other fine fun products... "

Now THAT is a BALL GAME! Of course the sponsors would be the various drug companys...

"This steroid moment brought to you by Smith Glaxo Kline... makers of EPO and other fine fun products... "

Oddly enough, the Tour of California IS sponsored by Amgen, the makers of EPO, so it wouldn't be that much of a change.

Sherwin: "Fuentes leans out the Ishares team car to give Tyler a fresh transfusion on the descent in prepartion for the upcoming pair of UC climbs. Tyler crashes-he looks like he's hurt Phil."

Liggett: "Thats a shame Paul. All Fuentes hard work looks to have gone to waste with another of Tyler's crashes. "

Bobke: "It looks like on the descent Floyd has taken the lead. His 5000 W brushless DC powered transplanted hip has enabled him to descend faster than Jan given Jan's being overly tentative in avoiding pedal strike in the curves with those 350mm cranks necessitated by the transplant. But Floyds reserve meter is reading low, so the team car is racing to catch Floyd so they can switch out NiNa battery packs and plug them into the hip for the next climb."

Trautwig: "It appears team doctor Ferrari and team manager Mancebo are arguing in the team car over which steroid to apply to the domestiques for the next climb."

I'd pay just to see someone turn 350mm cranks.

Oddly enough, the Tour of California IS sponsored by Amgen, the makers of EPO, so it wouldn't be that much of a change.Crikey.

Yeah, it's weird. You'd think they want to be as far away from the sport as possible. But they designed the drug for legitimate use by dialysis patients and they've never condoned abuse of it by athletes.

Well, read this carefully. It describes the isotope test and it does NOT prove the testosterone was from an outside source. It merely proves that there is a type of testosterone that COULD be from an outside source because it has less carbon-13 than other testosterones in the urine. Of course, they say that soy (that stuff they make tofu and MANY food filler products with) has that same makeup and most testosterone drugs are also made from soy. Do any doctors know - if you ate a lot of soy, could some of the testosterone in it be excreted in your urine?

Why would soy have less C13 than other food products?
If soy does have less C13, why does it have less, and what portion of soy carbon is the C13 isotope?
What other foods might deviate from the 1.1 percent C13 found in most foods?

Some intersting input from the Wall Street Journal Numbers guy.
Gives a good explanation of the isotope test and its difficulties.

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB115522290517032225-Fdk3SqD84q31fQN_mbm9_kTRRqU_20060909.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top


Q: How conclusive are the results of the test? Could there have been an error by the lab?

A: The numbers don't bode well for Mr. Landis.

A difference of more than three parts per thousand in the examination known as isotope ratio mass spectrometry is considered a positive test (the test is explained in more detail here; see the paragraph starting with "stable isotope abundances"). Mr. Henson, the Landis spokesman, told me that Mr. Landis's difference was 3.99 parts per thousand, calling it a "mild bump." But Dr. Thevis's interpretation differed: "The difference (3.99 to three) is a big number and not related to uncertainties. …The established value of three parts per thousand covers all possibly occurring uncertainties. Hence, a difference of almost four is perfectly positive."

However, there are difficulties in conducting the test. "It's a very complex test that requires very skilled people and is easy to mess up," said Dr. Hellman of the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists.

Some intersting input from the Wall Street Journal Numbers guy.
Gives a good explanation of the isotope test and its difficulties.

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB115522290517032225-Fdk3SqD84q31fQN_mbm9_kTRRqU_20060909.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top


Q: How conclusive are the results of the test? Could there have been an error by the lab?

A: The numbers don't bode well for Mr. Landis.

A difference of more than three parts per thousand in the examination known as isotope ratio mass spectrometry is considered a positive test (the test is explained in more detail here; see the paragraph starting with "stable isotope abundances"). Mr. Henson, the Landis spokesman, told me that Mr. Landis's difference was 3.99 parts per thousand, calling it a "mild bump." But Dr. Thevis's interpretation differed: "The difference (3.99 to three) is a big number and not related to uncertainties. …The established value of three parts per thousand covers all possibly occurring uncertainties. Hence, a difference of almost four is perfectly positive."

However, there are difficulties in conducting the test. "It's a very complex test that requires very skilled people and is easy to mess up," said Dr. Hellman of the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists.

Anyone know the background on this Landis spokesman Henson?

If I'm interpretting that data correctly in the and the linked page:http://www4.nau.edu/cpsil/isotopes.htm

It would seem as if the says Floyd had about 99.6 percent natural testosterone and .4 percent synthetic with .3 percent being the test's positive threshold. Am I interpretting those numbers correctly (since the ratiometric difference in C13 in synthetic vs. natural testosterone is near .1 percent or near 1 part per mil, those part per mil C13 differences from the standard would equate to nearly the same parts exogenous testosterone)?

If so, it would seem if Floyd's number were that close on the isotope test, the B sample should have been done at a differing lab just to make sure the techs weren't fouling up, particularly given that lab's past history of problems.

On the other hand, if Floyd was doping, sounds like his timing was off by only about 45 minutes of clearing the isotope test. Anyone know when Floyd took his last nature break-if it was more than an hour before the finish of stage 17, he might have pasted the isotope test by emptying his bladder at the bottom of the last descent before powering to the finish line so he'd have urine in his bladder with a latter filtered average time.:beer: