Professional Cycling For the Fans - Do you still believe Lance was clean in all 7 Tours?

It doesn't matter, if he did, he got away with it.

I read that the Lance Armstrong case is STILL open as to if he was doping. I believe I read that in last months bicycling magazine. I still think this is his witch hunt still.... To smoke him out of the closet or to get someone to tell on him.

One thing is certain, Armstrong has better Lawyers then Landis.

He doesn't have better lawyers, the one ball he has is REALLY big :eek:

The accusations against Lance lead to a six month investigation of the Paris lab. That report detailed a long list of illegal and unethical behavior on the part of lab staff, with the help and assistance of staff members of the UCI and WADA.

The conclusion of the report was that was a complete failure to follow proper procedures, there was a pattern of misconduct on the part of lab staff, and a pattern of lying, in which WADA, the UCI, and lab staff admitted SOMEONE had committed wrongdoing, but each blamed the others. WADA and the UCI both attempted to block the investigation and failed to allow sworn statements to be taken by their staff.

The report concluded that the outrageous misconduct of the French lab, allow with the misconduct on the part of WADA and UCI staff members made the accusations against Lance unreliable and untrustworthy.

The French lab suspended just one staff member as a result of the investigation. Yet, the EXACT SAME people are making the accusations against Floyd. Same lab. Same Dick Pound at WADA. The same people caught "cooking" the story about Lance, and leaking that story to the press leaked Floyd's results to the press days before providing Floyd with any written results.

The ONE thing that will not happen: Floyd will never be permitted to bring his accusers into an American court, where they could be cross-examined under oath. The French lab is willing to accuse Floyd, but they will never allow a single member of their staff to be questioned in American courts, subject to the a hefty prison sentence for perjury. They will accuse Floyd, but he will never have a chance to find out the truth about how the tests were done, and how the results were obtained.

But, it doesn't matter. Because he has been accused by the French lab, the press says he is guilty. Most Forum members say he is guilty. There is no need for proof. No need for evidence. If you are an American cyclist who wins an important race in Europe, you are guilty, guilty, guilty. No hearing will be necessary.

The accusations against Lance lead to a six month investigation of the Paris lab. That report detailed a long list of illegal and unethical behavior on the part of lab staff, with the help and assistance of staff members of the UCI and WADA.

The conclusion of the report was that was a complete failure to follow proper procedures, there was a pattern of misconduct on the part of lab staff, and a pattern of lying, in which WADA, the UCI, and lab staff admitted SOMEONE had committed wrongdoing, but each blamed the others. WADA and the UCI both attempted to block the investigation and failed to allow sworn statements to be taken by their staff.

The report concluded that the outrageous misconduct of the French lab, allow with the misconduct on the part of WADA and UCI staff members made the accusations against Lance unreliable and untrustworthy.

The French lab suspended just one staff member as a result of the investigation. Yet, the EXACT SAME people are making the accusations against Floyd. Same lab. Same Dick Pound at WADA. The same people caught "cooking" the story about Lance, and leaking that story to the press leaked Floyd's results to the press days before providing Floyd with any written results.

The ONE thing that will not happen: Floyd will never be permitted to bring his accusers into an American court, where they could be cross-examined under oath. The French lab is willing to accuse Floyd, but they will never allow a single member of their staff to be questioned in American courts, subject to the a hefty prison sentence for perjury. They will accuse Floyd, but he will never have a chance to find out the truth about how the tests were done, and how the results were obtained.

But, it doesn't matter. Because he has been accused by the French lab, the press says he is guilty. Most Forum members say he is guilty. There is no need for proof. No need for evidence. If you are an American cyclist who wins an important race in Europe, you are guilty, guilty, guilty. No hearing will be necessary.

Translation= I hate France.

You're welcome.

After reading one of the many books about Lance- Lance Armstrong's war, I'd say he definitely doped.
His big thing is "I've never tested positive for any PED" Well, when have individuals in your employ who know how to beat the tests and you still continue to dope but never get caught, it doesn't mean you are clean.


The book was really pretty decent. I never knew the number of riders who died from EPO was as high as it was. I guess those were the guys who couldn't afford a good doctor.

The book was really pretty decent. I never knew the number of riders who died from EPO was as high as it was. I guess those were the guys who couldn't afford a good doctor.

Yeah, like Dr Ferrari
'EPO can be dangerous if used improperly. But so can orange juice.'

The accusations against Lance lead to a six month investigation of the Paris lab. That report detailed a long list of illegal and unethical behavior on the part of lab staff, with the help and assistance of staff members of the UCI and WADA.

The conclusion of the report was that was a complete failure to follow proper procedures, there was a pattern of misconduct on the part of lab staff, and a pattern of lying, in which WADA, the UCI, and lab staff admitted SOMEONE had committed wrongdoing, but each blamed the others. WADA and the UCI both attempted to block the investigation and failed to allow sworn statements to be taken by their staff.

The report concluded that the outrageous misconduct of the French lab, allow with the misconduct on the part of WADA and UCI staff members made the accusations against Lance unreliable and untrustworthy.

The French lab suspended just one staff member as a result of the investigation. Yet, the EXACT SAME people are making the accusations against Floyd. Same lab. Same Dick Pound at WADA. The same people caught "cooking" the story about Lance, and leaking that story to the press leaked Floyd's results to the press days before providing Floyd with any written results.

The ONE thing that will not happen: Floyd will never be permitted to bring his accusers into an American court, where they could be cross-examined under oath. The French lab is willing to accuse Floyd, but they will never allow a single member of their staff to be questioned in American courts, subject to the a hefty prison sentence for perjury. They will accuse Floyd, but he will never have a chance to find out the truth about how the tests were done, and how the results were obtained.

But, it doesn't matter. Because he has been accused by the French lab, the press says he is guilty. Most Forum members say he is guilty. There is no need for proof. No need for evidence. If you are an American cyclist who wins an important race in Europe, you are guilty, guilty, guilty. No hearing will be necessary.

Translation= I hate France.

You're welcome.Alanbikehouston has nailed the problem with the corruption in this and other cases on the head.

And I love France-- I celebrate Bastille Day every year.

Alanbikehouston has nailed the problem with the corruption in this and other cases on the head.

And I love France-- I celebrate Bastille Day every year.

Totally mixes apples and oranges. The investigation regarding Armstrong's positive B sample goes into significant detail explaining why a research test done years after the fact, that was never intended to be a doping control does not meet the criteria for a positive drug test for sanctioning purposes. However, that test was done for research purposes and never intended to be a doping control test. That report tells you nothing about the Lab's ability to perform a proper test, and follow proper test procedure, and whether they did so here. In fact, the Lab involved is WADA certified, used by the International Olympic comitteee Internatio and has the respect of other highly regarded labs.

Paris is not located in a third world country. Perhaps if the French Lab bashers here took off their jingoistic, and hero worshiping filters they could view this a little more objectively.

As much as it means when any major international public figure makes money out of lying to children.

what you don't seem to understand is that the cancer community could care less
whether he used PEDs or not.
All they know is he survived, won a bunch of tours, and his foundation is spending
millions of dollars on cancer research and survivorship.
Lying to children? please give me a break, good sensationalism on your part
but show me one instance that he lied to children.
(and fwiw I don't think anyone in the peloton is clean with the possible exception
of Jesus Manzano).

Thats the thing that's so funny about all of this, with the exception
of sportswriters for the 2 weeks eitherside of the tour, and us whacko cyclists
and cycling fans no one gives a flying **** about it.

Totally mixes apples and oranges.Nonsense. Absent evidence of reform, the evidence of past ethical lapses by WADA and the lab is entirely relevant to the integrity of their work.


The investigation regarding Armstrong's positive B sample goes into significant detail explaining why a research test done years after the fact, that was never intended to be a doping control does not meet the criteria for a positive drug test for sanctioning purposes. However, that test was done for research purposes and never intended to be a doping control test.As far as I recall, UCI Rules prohibit the use of any athlete's sample for research without that athlete's express written consent. Did WADA or the lab have that consent, or is that just another technicality to be overlooked?


That report tells you nothing about the Lab's ability to perform a proper test, and follow proper test procedure, and whether they did so here. In fact, the Lab involved is WADA certified, used by the International Olympic comitteee Internatio and has the respect of other highly regarded labs.The report certainly does raise questions about the lab's ability to perform a proper test, and to follow proper procedure, and thus, properly raises questions about whether they did so in other cases-- for example, in the Landis case.

If the lab is willing to disregard WADA standards in the Armstrong test, then what else is the lab disregarding? Does the lab know the identity of the cyclist's it is testing? Is the lab properly accredited? How do we know-- what evidence is there? For example, if the lab is in violation of the Laboratory Code of Ethics, it can't be accredited. And yet we-- Pat McQuaid, for example-- strongly suspect that the lab is in violation of the Code of Ethics, thus properly raising questions about whether this lab is properly accredited, and thus competent to perform WADA testing. What other accreditation standards have been ignored?


Paris is not located in a third world country. Perhaps if the French Lab bashers here took off their jingoistic, and hero worshiping filters they could view this a little more objectively.:roflmao:

How sad that the "Landis cheated" crowd have no other argument. As I've mentioned in several other posts, I never even heard of Landis until he tested positive on the A Sample. That hardly suggests hero worship on my part. I didn't even watch the Tour because I'm not impressed with the "achievements" of doped riders-- an attitude I will have to re-evaluate after my research into WADA, the UCI, and LNDD. Nevertheless, I can hardly be characterized as a Landis "hero-worshipper."

Jingoistic? How pathetic. Show me one post I've made where I've made any reference to my nationality, or to Landis' nationality. I did agree with Alanabikehouston's post, in which he did make reference to American riders in his last sentence. That reference to American riders was not the basis for my agreement with Alanbikehouston. From the beginning, my argument has been that WADA, the UCI, and LNDD are not following protocol, and that it's not just a technicality-- that the fundamental rights of the accused have been violated.

Paris is not located in a third world country. It's a world-class city in a first world country-- a country I celebrate every July 14. I can't speak to whether Lausanne is a world-class city, but I can safely say that Switzerland is also a first world country. Neither of those facts is an argument that corruption hasn't infected the anti-doping movement.

No one has addressed the Actovegin issue from 2000. What do the Lanceophiles think about that?

What was USPS doing with Cows Blood based medice that is now prescribed for people with Cerebral Hypoxia "not enough oxygen going to the brain" and why did they have to drive so far from the hotel to throw the packages away?

Smoothie, you're looking for logic where none exists.
and wasn actovegin banned at the time? I don't recall, but that
sure fits the "I never used banned substances"

marty

Smoothie, you're looking for logic where none exists.
and wasn actovegin banned at the time? I don't recall, but that
sure fits the "I never used banned substances"

marty

Yeah I think if you watch his wording carefully, he's probably never lying, technically. It's always something like "I have never used banned substances", "I have never used Performance Enhancing Drugs", etc.

From what little I know of the affair it sounded like it wasn't banned at the time. And was Lance "caught" red-handed or just implicated by nature of being on Postal (I'm not defending nor accusing him -- just asking)? Smoothie do you have a link for more info on this? I've read a couple of articles here and there. Certainly seems suspicious but if it wasn't technically banned at the time...not much anyone can do. Guess that's part of the big problem with testing, someone's always looking for stuff that isn't technically banned but which (presumably) provides some kind of performance benefit...use it 'til it ends up on The List, repeat ad infinitum... :(

What was lance's team doing with cow blood?
I dunno, technically the AK-47 isn't banned either but if a bunch of cyclists are found shot to death and your team leader's sighted 400 miles away disposing of an AK-47 into a river, that does sound suspicious.

NO. Lance was NOT clean in his tour wins. The evidence is there. He tested positive more than once. In fact, his A and B samples from a previous Tour win were tested positive for EPO. He got off on a technicality.

NO. Lance was NOT clean in his tour wins. The evidence is there. He tested positive more than once. In fact, his A and B samples from a previous Tour win were tested positive for EPO. He got off on a technicality.

which tour and which technicality? If you mean the recent "scandal" about the 99 tour
that was B samples only. AFAIK Lance never has had a positive for both A and B samples.
and I'm not disputing your No he wasn't clean).

marty

Paris is not located in a third world country. Perhaps if the French Lab bashers here took off their jingoistic, and hero worshiping filters they could view this a little more objectively.

Don't hold your breath man;)
Seems like many people when it comes to Lance, Floyd or doping in cycling in general just take leave of their intelligence and are willing to swallow any pr make believe theory in a heartbeat. Sad.:o

Lance seems to be treated in a Jesus-like manner. The man is an egotistical, self-centered doper with a messiah complex. He cheated and got away with it. That makes him God. Landis, on the other hand, got busted. That makes him a goat. Goats are not God. I have a theory that Tyler Hamilton's "phantom twin" was real, but Hamilton sharted him out by accident after a grueling training session. I have many other theories.

Too much evidence and credible people involved with the US Postal and Discovery teams suggest that Armstrong was on EPO for all those years.

Armstrong's former teamates:
Floyd Landis, Tour de France winner - BUSTED
Tyler Hamilton, gold medal Olympics - BUSTED
Roberto Heras, Tour of Spain - BUSTED
...should I go on?

Armstrong teamates who have stated the Armstrong EPO stories are true:
Frankie Andreu
Stephen Swart
Marty Jemison
...should I go on?

Former Staff of US Postal who stated the EPO dope stories are true:
former US Postal physician - Prentice Steffen, MD
former US Postal Physical Therapist - Emma O’Reilly
...should I go on?

What made me re-think my belief in Lance was the banning of riders before the start of TDF. I am having a hard time understanding how a clean rider could compete with all of the doped riders..

What made me re-think my belief in Lance was the banning of riders before the start of TDF. I am having a hard time understanding how a clean rider could compete with all of the doped riders..


Thank you.

What made me re-think my belief in Lance was the banning of riders before the start of TDF. I am having a hard time understanding how a clean rider could compete with all of the doped riders..

Lots of training.

(of course, doping could help out too...)

Lots of training.

(of course, doping could help out too...)


Yeah, Basso and Ullrich never train. Yawn.

I have many other theories.

Does that mean that if you continue to be ignored, you will continue to share them?

Yeah, Basso and Ullrich never train. Yawn.

I don't know about Basso but isn't Ullrich usually picked on because of his(or lack of) off-season training program?

I don't know about Basso but isn't Ullrich usually picked on because of his(or lack of) off-season training program?

Ullrich in 2001 and 2003 was certainly in form. And there have been countless other strong GC riders that Armstrong has not only beaten, but utterly dominated year after year. A number of them have either been caught doping or have had strong evidence linking them to doping.
If Armstrong had a training advantage in 1999, with specilization... it wasn't there anymore in 2004. So many strong riders thought they had a chance at winning it in '04... they must have done everything they could have in training. Some of them previously or later linked with doping. And Armstrong of course, dominated that Tour when many thought he would pull an Indurain...

it only really crossed my mind during the last couple of tours he raced. Here he was at 33 and beating the crap out of guys 7 years younger than he; while everyone else is getting cooked, he's getting stronger and stronger. It just seemed improbable- no one is THAT strong, i don't care HOW much they train.