Advocacy & Safety - +15 mph on the paths Wasington Park could get you a ticket

http://www.denverpost.com/portlet/article/html/fragments/print_article.jsp?article=4119472


Wash Park bicyclists need to heed speed
By Mike McPhee
Denver Post Staff Writer
DenverPost.com

Police today will begin enforcing the 15-mph speed limit for bicyclists using the asphalt road around the interior of Washington Park.

The park is used - heavily at times, such as early in the morning and after work - by dog walkers, joggers, in-line skaters and cyclists. It's the difference in speeds that causes the problems.

"It's a park, not a racetrack," said Jenny Cargile, 37, a mother of three who jogged Monday while pushing a big-wheeled baby carriage. "Just the other day, I saw two children get hit by bikes. It scares me when my own kids walk over the yellow line. They could be wiped out by a group of bikes."

But some cyclists think police should concentrate on bigger problems.

Julie and Daryl Hoekstra ride bikes 30 to 50 miles a day, usually on roads or the Cherry Creek bike path.

"When it's crowded, we don't ride very fast," Julie Hoekstra said. But police should ticket people who spray "graffiti or cars running stop signs. Bikers are pretty careful. The only accident I've seen is a car that ran a stop sign and hit a cyclist."

The smooth asphalt road is divided by a painted yellow line. Bikes use the outside lane traveling counterclockwise, and everyone else uses the inside lane traveling clockwise. Automobiles are banned, except for a quarter-mile stretch between the park's entrances on Virginia Avenue and Downing Street.

Police spokesman Sonny Jackson said Monday that he was not sure whether police would use a radar gun to track the speed and whether they would ticket offenders.

Several people said it was about time police did something.

Michael Hanna, 30, works out on his bike nearly every day and races on weekends.

"I don't mind the speed limit - 15 (mph) is reasonable," he said. "The park is for all kinds of people. Everyone should feel safe. But it's also important for pedestrians and kids to pay attention to the bikes while they're in the park."

Kristin and Jim Benoist, who have seven children between them, in-line skate in the park four times a week while pushing double child carriers.

"The bikes go too fast, and some skaters do too," said Kristin Benoist, 32. "And they don't have much tolerance for us, yelling to get out of the way or to go faster."

Jim Benoist, 45, said bicyclists should watch what they're doing. "It's usually just one or two riders going way too fast," he said. "I wouldn't mind even if the speed limit was 20 mph, if people were careful."

Others, like bike-commuter Brad Smith, 47, would prefer set times for a speed limit - say 4 p.m. to dusk and on weekends. "The rest of the time people could go at their own pace," said Smith, who said he witnessed a bicyclist-pedestrian accident in the park two weeks ago that required an ambulance.

15 mph on a MUP isn't bad though.

Makes sense to me, if folks want to go faster they have these great things called roads.

Makes sense to me, if folks want to go faster they have these great things called roads.
http://djforum.free.fr/smileysmileysmiley/v2/surprises/surprises.smileysmiley.com.54.gif

Makes sense to me, if folks want to go faster they have these great things called roads.

It is a road. It's closed to vehicles (for 80% of the loop anyway), and peds/joggers are supposed to go in one direction, others in the opposing direction, each on their side of the double yellow. Of course that's what you're supposed to do. There are walkers who go where they want, and bikers who go where they want. So yeah, the speed limit is a good thing.

Given that bicycles are not required to have speedometers, this might prove unenforceable in court.

As someone who often rides MUP's at 6 a.m. on cold, dreary mornings, I generally oppose set numeric speed limits, except in specific dangerous spots. 25 mph can be perfectly safe if the path is nearly empty, but 10 mph can be dangerous at the same spot on a nice weekend afternoon.

That said, I wouldn't oppose speed limit enforcement against cyclists if they also enforced the single-file rule against pedestrians (on our MUP, the trail guidelines say that all users should be single file when others are near).

With or without speed limits, if cyclists followed these three common sense rules, virtually all of the cyclist-pedestrian conflicts would be avoided:

Go at a speed so as to always maintain an assured, clear distance in front of you;
Assume that the pedestrian you are about to pass will take two steps in the wrong direction at exactly the wrong time, plan accordingly;
Get a bell for your bike, and use it before passing.

It's amazing the thought that 15-17 mph on a bike was fast. If want to go faster, need either wider streets or bike lanes.

A better rule would be speed limit when peds are within 1/8th mile. Sounds like a revenue issue to me. Fair enforcement would be targeting both cyclists and non-cyclists for violations.

For example, some dummies running vs traffic in the bike lane this morning and moved over 6". I stayed in the road.
augghhhh.

I ride on the Ohio-Erie Canal Towpath (crushed LImestone path), have seen quite a few close calls. Most are due to inexperienced riders, some due to high speed riders and some to people who do not keep there children close by. I have encountered a few fast riders, but for the most part, they stay on the roads. As for myself, I never use the 3rd chainring on the path, as I know some of the curves ahead may bring about things that are out of my control, and control is where the key is. The bottom line is that bikes are vehicles and they should always yield to pedestrians and animals.

With or without speed limits, if cyclists followed these three common sense rules, virtually all of the cyclist-pedestrian conflicts would be avoided:

Go at a speed so as to always maintain an assured, clear distance in front of you;
Assume that the pedestrian you are about to pass will take two steps in the wrong direction at exactly the wrong time, plan accordingly;
Get a bell for your bike, and use it before passing.


4. Get off the MUP and on the road, where it's safer. :p

I ride through this park twice a day on my commute and 15 mph is below my slow speed.
I can see that this would be appropriate for weekends. However, at 6 am and 3:30 pm it is plain silly.
The number of cyclists in Washington park has now dropped by 2/3.
I am now relocating my commute route to the streets that run parallel to Washington Park.
Personally, I feel unwelcome in a park that has signs specifying "As of august 1st the 15mph speedlimit will be enforced" followed by mobile speed reporting trailers "Your speed is 19 mph"

I wonder how you can ticket a vehicle for speeding when it is not required to have a speedometer.

I wonder how you can ticket a vehicle for speeding when it is not required to have a speedometer.
Easy; the person issuing the ticket has one (or radar). Just like an excuse of no brakes will not prevent getting a ticket for failure to stop at a regulated intersection.

They can ticket you because it is your responsibility to know what your speed is. Not the responsibility of the officers to inform you. So although you aren't required to have a speedometer, you better get one if you think you are going to exceed the 15mph. I would also guess they arent going to ticket you for 16mph, but for sure they will at 20mph. Basically, they just want to keep the speed on the MUP reasonable.

Is this a bike only law though? Or is it a 15mph limit on anyone on the MUP?

Also, I agree that 15mph is reasonable. The whole reason I dont like to ride in the parks around here is because I dont think it is safe when I am on the trails if it is busy at all. Slow joggers, walkers, and dogs on leashes constantly cross the yellow. I neither want to get hurt, or hurt someone else.

So a motorist flys past a cyclist at 15 mph. over the speed limit while yelling, "Get off the road!"

Next morning, the motorist is walking his dog on the path and the cyclist flies past him. "You're going too fast!" he yells.

Eck.

There is no need for speed limits on MUPs. There is the over-reaching ticket called "Unsafe operation of a motor vehicle" (which is a law that can easily be expanded for MUP use). I think if someone is caught acting in an unsafe manner on an MUP, be it ped, cyclist, blader, or pet walkers, it should be at the discression of a QUALIFIED officer of the law to make a sound judgement (CAMs help here for proof).

I really don't want to see MUPs begin to look like freeways with signs at every trail nuance. A clear distinction of right of ways, responsibility hierachy, levels of offense, and fine/punishment/liability outlined will go a long way to make sure we all know our place on the MUPs. After all, these are becoming the new form of "traffic". A bike can do a lot of damage to a person as can a fast blader. It could well lead to liability insurance options for those of us that plan to use such routes for commutes or regular excercise routine.

I well understand the concerns in this day for "trail safety". Just the other day, coming around a corner, at a mere 5mph, into the shade and BAM- a ped with stroller was just feet in front of me. Don't ask me where she came from because I don't know. Very good thing I have the ability to stop instantly with disk brakes on a trike (no falling over or bail out scenario). It may not have done much damage depending on the outcome of the stroller but the perception impact is ever lasting even for me with the near miss.

In my opinion, bikes on an MUP should be traveling the speed of the peds when peds are in sight. We have no more right to be there than they are. Are you covered by insurance if something really bad were to happened to someone else because of your stupidity?

This does not even qualify as a path. It is a closed off two lane street that runs in a large circle. One side is for peds and one side for cyclists.

Cyclists are the only persons being targeted. However, I doubt anyone but inline skaters could hit above 15 mph. There are still doubts in my mind that the police can enforce a speed limit without legally requiring speedometers for bikes. However, I have no intention of finding out and will leave the virtually empty park for the streets. Thanks for the help on the legality question. :rolleyes:

There's a park near me that has a 6-mile ring-road in it that is very popular with cyclists. There is also a dedicated paved path along the road also open to cycles, as well as walkers, joggers, roller-bladers, etc. The suggested speed limit is 15mph on the path, which makes a lot of sense. In fact, the path is so crowded on weekends that it's a real PITA to ride a bike on it even at the limit.

So things pretty much have sorted themselves out. The bikes you see on the path are mostly families, couples, and others riding casually on mountain and comfort bikes. The road-burners all ride out on the regular vehicle road, which has a 35mph limit and usually light car traffic. It works out well for everyone and I've not seen any problems (in fact, the park police give out a lot of tickets to motor vehicles who can't hold to the 35mph limit!).

I wonder how you can ticket a vehicle for speeding when it is not required to have a speedometer.
The ticket is not for not having a speedometer. It is for going too fast. Just because your equipment does not allow you to know exactly how fast you are going doesn't give you carte blanche to ride at any speed.

Riding fast near peds is dangerous, even if you call out and ring the bell. This is particularly true in the dark and in bad weather. If you like to ride fast, the road's a better place to be.

My local news from Cincinnati, Oh. ABC 9 carried a short version of this story tonight on the local news.

OK, here is a map of Washington Park. The bicycle route is the outer road all the way around. For a part of that route, near the rec center, there are also cars parking for the rec center. I believe the path is about 3 miles long.

Imagine 1,000 folks in the middle of the park playing/practicing LaCrosse, flag football, volleyball - including little league kids and other sports. Then there are picnicers,sun bathers, folks throwing frisbees - the works. Imagine cars parked all around the exterior of the park, and folks coming to and fro across the trail, directly from their cars, with little kids being dragged by parents, riding on tricycles, etc. Then throw in runners, slow bikers, inline skaters, folks with baby carriages, etc.

That is the problem. No place for a high speed bicycle ride.

http://members.aol.com/dnvrfox/washparkmap.jpg

This just seems like such a non-issue among fast cyclists. Most cyclists avoid MUPs except for off hours and no serious cyclists would argue that they should be allowed to do speed training on such a path. It would seem like a good idea for Denver cycling advocates to be in favor of such enforcement, I know in Seattle there was a death from an out of control cyclist on the Burke Gilman years ago. It sounds like the police are trying to head off some 180 pound Floyd wanna be colliding with a toddler at 20 mph.

For those arguing that the trail is dead at certain hours then there are also probably roads that are equally dead at similar times.

I just wish they'd enforce the REST of the rules. IE: Pedestrians staying to their side of the trail, NO extending dog leashes, dogs must be leashed and under control.

You get idiots all the time that walk out into the trail without looking, walk their dogs on those suicide leashes, walk in a group having a big discussion and take up the whole trail... and it's OUR fault when we want to pass.

The idea of speed limits on MUPs is, in general, silly. Conditions vary greatly so what is a safe speed varies greatly. On a deserted or nearly deserted MUP, 30mph may be perfectly safe. On a MUP crowded with weekend warriors, 10 mph might be unsafe.


For those arguing that the trail is dead at certain hours then there are also probably roads that are equally dead at similar times.No true. Anytime the temperature is below 65 degrees (or before 8am, or between September and April), most MUPs are dead, while other roads carry normal traffic.

For years my commute included a couple of miles on a MUP and that was where I usually hit my top speed (except, perhaps, on the 5-10 days a year when the fair-weather MUPers were out).

I regularly hit 30 mph on a nearby MUP and it's perfectly safe. I don't ride MUPs on weekends in good weather but, if I did, I'd expect I'd have to ride 5 mph a lot, if that fast.



There is no need for speed limits on MUPs. There is the over-reaching ticket called "Unsafe operation of a motor vehicle" (which is a law that can easily be expanded for MUP use)...Exactly! Some states may call it "careless and imprudent driving", or something like that. It can and should apply to bicycles, to MUPs and to sidewalks for that matter. This would eliminate the need for specific laws (some of which are anti-bicycling) such as speed limits on MUPs and my personal pet peeve: a prohibition of riding a bicycle, even at pedestrian speed, on the sidewalk.

The problem of cyclist riding too fast (anywhere) could be handled by the basic speed rule which should apply to bicyclists no matter where they ride: "No person shall drive a vehicle at a speed greater than is reasonable and prudent under the conditions and having regard to the actual and potential hazards then existing" (Uniform Vehicle Code - Article VIII - Chapter 11 - Rules of the Road - Speed Restrictions 11-801 Basic rule).

Hey I say fair enough... limiting the speeds on the pathway were there are mixed users makes some sense. Now how about limiting the speeds on the roads too!

Bleh.
I still find the legality of this enforcement questionable at best. I could really give a rats rear end at this point since I have relocated my route to a nicer street. That and I found an alternate route for when I decide to ride home the entire way.
The worst part is no more ladies out jogging..... :(

Thank y'all for being so understanding as usual

The Need for Speed (http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10636.0.html)

I've ridden this park when visiting a friend in Denver. There is no good reason to be going over 15mph here. It's not that big, and plenty of pedestrian traffic. If you want to ride a criterium, sign up at your local race...

The street bordering it to the west is nice and peaceful. Trees everywhere and not a car to be had (for the most part). The only issue is with joggers in the middle of the damn street. Ah well. For some reason I believe I am legal riding in that street at 20mph while they need to move back onto the trail.


edit: Ack! I meant on the east. The street on the west is far from peaceful.

The Denver Post reports this am that several $54 tickets have been issued to bicyclists in Wash Park

But the Rocky Mountain News says $60! (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4887571,00.html)

OK, here is a map of Washington Park.

That is the problem. No place for a high speed bicycle ride.


I get that. But the irony of the whole thing is that whether on the road or off the road, cyclists seem to be in everybody's way.

I wonder if they would ticket a pedestrian for walking in a section designated for bicycles?

edit: Ack! I meant on the east. The street on the west is far from peaceful.

Amen. A real good chance of getting doored on Downing!

I don't see the problem here - it is a road that has been changed to a mup - wide enough for both sets of users. There is a line seperating them. I think they need to enforce their existing rules to keep slow traffic on one side and fast on the other. (I think a lot of bladers could be on the fast side - I have trouble keeping up with them sometimes :-)

Don't you teach your kids to look where they're going? You're stepping into a road/trail - just look first. And for those that are too young to know yet - that's what the parents are for - teaching by example and looking after them.

I despise this whole system of making new laws any time some group gets their knickers in a knot. If they weren't wandering all over the road ignoring the rule, they wouldn't be getting hit by a bike - unless the bike was ignoring the rule too. (possibly because he had to move over to go around some other group)

General:
How about ticketing joggers in the middle of the street?
Or actually ticketing motorists who are speeding?

Regarding washington park:
the peds who are on the wrong side of the closed off road.
To make things equal: the cyclists riding the wrong way on the ped side of the road.

Anyhow, it would be nice if I actually had a decent road route north of denver to completely avoid MUPs.
Anyone who rides through commerce city on the roads is suicidal.

I don't see the problem here - it is a road that has been changed to a mup - wide enough for both sets of users. There is a line seperating them. I think they need to enforce their existing rules to keep slow traffic on one side and fast on the other. (I think a lot of bladers could be on the fast side - I have trouble keeping up with them sometimes :-)

Don't you teach your kids to look where they're going? You're stepping into a road/trail - just look first. And for those that are too young to know yet - that's what the parents are for - teaching by example and looking after them.

I despise this whole system of making new laws any time some group gets their knickers in a knot. If they weren't wandering all over the road ignoring the rule, they wouldn't be getting hit by a bike - unless the bike was ignoring the rule too. (possibly because he had to move over to go around some other group)

The problem:

1. There are no set places for peds to cross from the outer side of the park across the MUP into the heavily used inner part. Even if there were, there are many peds who would ignore the designated crossings. One of the biggest dangers is not people going ON the MUP, it is people CROSSING the MUP, kids running into the MUP for a loose ball, etc.

2. Not all of the bicyclers go anywhere near the same speed. Some go at near 30 mph, others at 5 mph. This creates an inherently unsafe condition. This is a highly crowded bicycling environment, esp on weekends.

3. Many folks (peds and bicyclists) pay no attention to the "walk" and Bike" sides of the MUP - either being unawares of it, or intentionally disregarding it. Either way, they will get hit or will hit someone.

4. I agree that peds should be ticketed just as much as the bicyclers when they are in the wrong MUP lane or cross unsafely, or whatever. However, that will never happen. There are a lot more "ped" voters in the park than bicycle voters. The city council would be overwhelmed by enraged pedestrains who would feel that they are being run out of the park by bicyclists.

No, it isn't fair. All the statements about the "what" should be make no difference because it is the "is" that is the actuality and needs to be remedied.

4. Get off the MUP and on the road, where it's safer. :p
Fair enough.;) The only problem is that some in this city are trying to put bike lanes on my road commute. And they only want to engineer them to be safe at, you guessed it, 15 mph.

On a serious side, I'm not an opponent of MUP's, unless they come at the cost of losing the right to use the road. A good MUP can be what few bike lanes can--long stretches without intersections. The one I frequently take goes along a river. If I'm willing to hoof it up one hill, I can go from a few blocks from my home to a few blocks from my office crossing the traffic lanes of a street only once. Now, if you could build a bike lane like that, I might be a convert.

There are cases where a MUP is safer and makes more sense. No need to disregard the 500+ miles of trails we have in the metro area. At least I believe it is 500+. Maybe it was 200. Can not remember.

I have this annoying city between Thornton and Denver named Commerce City. It truly is a masterpiece of high crime and industrial areas.
Consequently, I mix a combination of MUPs and streets on my commute.

OK, here is a map of Washington Park. The bicycle route is the outer road all the way around. For a part of that route, near the rec center, there are also cars parking for the rec center. I believe the path is about 3 miles long.

Imagine 1,000 folks in the middle of the park playing/practicing LaCrosse, flag football, volleyball - including little league kids and other sports. Then there are picnicers,sun bathers, folks throwing frisbees - the works. Imagine cars parked all around the exterior of the park, and folks coming to and fro across the trail, directly from their cars, with little kids being dragged by parents, riding on tricycles, etc. Then throw in runners, slow bikers, inline skaters, folks with baby carriages, etc.

That is the problem. No place for a high speed bicycle ride.

http://members.aol.com/dnvrfox/washparkmap.jpg

This was always my feeling about Wash Park, 20 years ago! It's a short loop, with lots of people crossing it, and multi-use is always fraught with unpredictably mobile obstacles. The High Line, Cherry Creek, and other dedicated paths are better, but still not as good as a nice clean road.

When the cyclists yelled at the peds to get out of the way, were the peds walking in the cyclist lane? There's an infraction that should be enforced, as well! Separation of travel types has to be observed by all parties!

Ken Freeman

There are cases where a MUP is safer and makes more sense. No need to disregard the 500+ miles of trails we have in the metro area. At least I believe it is 500+. Maybe it was 200. Can not remember.

I have this annoying city between Thornton and Denver named Commerce City. It truly is a masterpiece of high crime and industrial areas.
Consequently, I mix a combination of MUPs and streets on my commute.

Do you use the Sand Creek Trail?

We have 75 miles of MUPS in our little town of Parker (40,000 folks) alone. I can do about 45 miles right out the door, crossing only 3 small roads,

This is the kind of MUP I ride on - my home is right on the trail! I ride for miles and see only a few peds and other bicyclers except about 10:00 am on a weekend day!

http://members.aol.com/dnvrfox/SVI_0020.JPG

http://members.aol.com/dnvrfox/SVI_0019.JPG

I've been meaning to try that one out. I prefer MUPs on the weekend rides pulling my toddler in his trailer.
Can't go very fast. Consequently, MUPs are a great place for us.

Given that bicycles are not required to have speedometers, this might prove unenforceable in court.
It's my understanding, I haven't bothered to look it up, but speedometers aren't legally required equipment in cars either.