miyata610
08-05-06, 02:46 AM
yep.
View Full Version : Flandis fails B test
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Odin
08-05-06, 02:56 AM
gawd, it's gone quiet...
Dead Roman
08-05-06, 02:58 AM
gawd, it's gone quiet...
whatd you expect its 4 in the morning?(in texas, where i beez)
whatd you expect its 4 in the morning?(in texas, where i beez)
Dead Roman
08-05-06, 03:05 AM
I cant believe velonews hasnt plastered it on thier front page yet... lazy lazy lazy.
Welp, lets se what ole flandis can do now.
Welp, lets se what ole flandis can do now.
1slowbastard
08-05-06, 03:07 AM
I cant believe velonews hasnt plastered it on thier front page yet... lazy lazy lazy.
Welp, lets se what ole flandis can do now.
I expect it will be up shortly.
Welp, lets se what ole flandis can do now.
I expect it will be up shortly.
mrkott3r
08-05-06, 03:20 AM
Funny now seeing a man 28min down after the Pyrnees wins the tdf. pretty funny in my book :lol:
tblendell
08-05-06, 03:24 AM
ah floyd....
i stayed up late with the smallest of small hopes that maybe, just maybe the B sample would come back clean.
alas...
so sad.
he cheated.
why do i feel so SORRY for him?
i guess i'm holding out hope that someone from the lab will step forward and admit to some vast right wing conspiracy to bring floyd down. although somehow i doubt that will happen.
i stayed up late with the smallest of small hopes that maybe, just maybe the B sample would come back clean.
alas...
so sad.
he cheated.
why do i feel so SORRY for him?
i guess i'm holding out hope that someone from the lab will step forward and admit to some vast right wing conspiracy to bring floyd down. although somehow i doubt that will happen.
cyclezealot
08-05-06, 03:52 AM
Not sure I have complete faith in the testing methods. Wonder if all the hormones US food producers put in US foods, might have some kind of impact?
matagi
08-05-06, 03:53 AM
a.....
why do i feel so SORRY for him?
Because it is sad that the only way these guys can perform at this level is with the use of performance enhancing substances. He's not the only guy doping in the ProTour, he's just the unlucky bunny that got caught.
why do i feel so SORRY for him?
Because it is sad that the only way these guys can perform at this level is with the use of performance enhancing substances. He's not the only guy doping in the ProTour, he's just the unlucky bunny that got caught.
spearce
08-05-06, 03:54 AM
landis said in a statement that his testosterone levels were normal but his episoterone (sp?) levels were very low...i'm not sure what that means...but it's something...
georgiaboy
08-05-06, 04:02 AM
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/SPORT/08/05/cycling.landis.ap/
Floyd Landis 'B' test is positive
Saturday, August 5, 2006 Posted: 0948 GMT (1748 HKT)
Landis has protested his innocence to the UCI
What Is This? PARIS, France (AP) -- Tour de France champion Floyd Landis' backup urine sample confirmed high levels of testosterone, cycling's governing body said Saturday, raising the prospect that he could lose his title.
Following the results of the "B" sample, Landis was fired by his Swiss team, Phonak. He also faces a two-year ban from USA Cycling, which is responsible for sanctions against the American rider.
"The analysis of the sample B of Floyd Landis's urine has confirmed the result of an adverse analytical finding notified by the anti-doping laboratory of Paris on 26th July, following the analysis of the sample A," the International Cycling Union said, referring to the Chatenay-Malabry lab outside Paris.
"Landis will be dismissed without notice for violating the team's internal Code of Ethics," Phonak said in a statement. "Landis will continue to have legal options to contest the findings. However, this will be his personal affair, and the Phonak team will no longer be involved in that."
The confirmed positive test sets off what now could be months of appeals and arguments by Landis. He repeatedly has professed his innocence and vowed to fight the allegations -- and did so again Saturday.
"I have never taken any banned substance, including testosterone," Landis said in a statement. "I was the strongest man at the Tour de France, and that is why I am the champion."
His lawyer was preparing the case for arbitration, said the statement issued by Landis' spokesman, Michael Henson.
The two-tiered analysis by the lab, which is accredited by the World Anti-Doping Agency, is designed to eliminate the chance for mistakes in the first test.
Henson said this week that the rider had tested positive for a testosterone-epitestosterone ratio of 11:1 -- well above the 4:1 limit.
On Friday, Henson said Landis was in the San Diego area, but no further details of his whereabouts were given.
The tests were conducted on urine samples drawn July 20 after Landis' stage victory in a grueling Alpine leg of the Tour, when he clawed back nearly eight minutes against then-leader Oscar Pereiro -- and back into contention to win the three-week race.
The UCI is expected to refer the case to the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency for handling.
If found guilty, Landis would become the first winner of cycling's premier race to lose his Tour crown over doping allegations. The title would go to Pereiro, the runner-up.
One of Landis' lawyers, Jose Maria Buxeda, has said he still believes Landis will prove his innocence, however.
"He's pretty sure we will be able to prove ... that it is due to natural causes," Buxeda said.
Landis, a 30-year-old former mountain biker, says he was tested eight other times during the three-week race and those results came back negative.
"I'm going to do my best to defend my dignity and my innocence," he said on CNN's "Larry King Live" last week.
Floyd Landis 'B' test is positive
Saturday, August 5, 2006 Posted: 0948 GMT (1748 HKT)
Landis has protested his innocence to the UCI
What Is This? PARIS, France (AP) -- Tour de France champion Floyd Landis' backup urine sample confirmed high levels of testosterone, cycling's governing body said Saturday, raising the prospect that he could lose his title.
Following the results of the "B" sample, Landis was fired by his Swiss team, Phonak. He also faces a two-year ban from USA Cycling, which is responsible for sanctions against the American rider.
"The analysis of the sample B of Floyd Landis's urine has confirmed the result of an adverse analytical finding notified by the anti-doping laboratory of Paris on 26th July, following the analysis of the sample A," the International Cycling Union said, referring to the Chatenay-Malabry lab outside Paris.
"Landis will be dismissed without notice for violating the team's internal Code of Ethics," Phonak said in a statement. "Landis will continue to have legal options to contest the findings. However, this will be his personal affair, and the Phonak team will no longer be involved in that."
The confirmed positive test sets off what now could be months of appeals and arguments by Landis. He repeatedly has professed his innocence and vowed to fight the allegations -- and did so again Saturday.
"I have never taken any banned substance, including testosterone," Landis said in a statement. "I was the strongest man at the Tour de France, and that is why I am the champion."
His lawyer was preparing the case for arbitration, said the statement issued by Landis' spokesman, Michael Henson.
The two-tiered analysis by the lab, which is accredited by the World Anti-Doping Agency, is designed to eliminate the chance for mistakes in the first test.
Henson said this week that the rider had tested positive for a testosterone-epitestosterone ratio of 11:1 -- well above the 4:1 limit.
On Friday, Henson said Landis was in the San Diego area, but no further details of his whereabouts were given.
The tests were conducted on urine samples drawn July 20 after Landis' stage victory in a grueling Alpine leg of the Tour, when he clawed back nearly eight minutes against then-leader Oscar Pereiro -- and back into contention to win the three-week race.
The UCI is expected to refer the case to the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency for handling.
If found guilty, Landis would become the first winner of cycling's premier race to lose his Tour crown over doping allegations. The title would go to Pereiro, the runner-up.
One of Landis' lawyers, Jose Maria Buxeda, has said he still believes Landis will prove his innocence, however.
"He's pretty sure we will be able to prove ... that it is due to natural causes," Buxeda said.
Landis, a 30-year-old former mountain biker, says he was tested eight other times during the three-week race and those results came back negative.
"I'm going to do my best to defend my dignity and my innocence," he said on CNN's "Larry King Live" last week.
Tmax1
08-05-06, 04:20 AM
Sad...but "they" say it's true.
Here's an interesting comparison of
Landis and big breasts (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/sunday/la-oe-daum5aug05,0,1262645.column?coll=la-util-opinion-sunday).
Here's an interesting comparison of
Landis and big breasts (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/sunday/la-oe-daum5aug05,0,1262645.column?coll=la-util-opinion-sunday).
Jagsti
08-05-06, 04:24 AM
landis said in a statement that his testosterone levels were normal but his episoterone (sp?) levels were very low...i'm not sure what that means...but it's something...
But they also used carbon isotoping, which proved positive, for sythentic testosterone in his system.
But they also used carbon isotoping, which proved positive, for sythentic testosterone in his system.
roadwarrior
08-05-06, 04:30 AM
Did they test him after stage 17? Did he pee in a bottle subsequent to the sample he provided in stage 17? What were the results of those tests?
I am unaware of any steroid that goes away like an aspirin. If he took something before or during stage 17, once he got into yellow on stage 19, he would have been tested. My guess is that he was probably tested after stage 18 as well. And the existence of whatever he "took" would still be showing up.
What about those results?
I am unaware of any steroid that goes away like an aspirin. If he took something before or during stage 17, once he got into yellow on stage 19, he would have been tested. My guess is that he was probably tested after stage 18 as well. And the existence of whatever he "took" would still be showing up.
What about those results?
jkmartin
08-05-06, 04:37 AM
Not sure I have complete faith in the testing methods. Wonder if all the hormones US food producers put in US foods, might have some kind of impact?
Sounds like you're trying to get a job with his fantastic legal/PR team.
Sounds like you're trying to get a job with his fantastic legal/PR team.
Trevor98
08-05-06, 04:38 AM
I hope they ban him for the full 2 years.
blue_neon
08-05-06, 04:48 AM
Blah Blah his own fault. Now come the excuses.
He is confirmed a cheat, Oscar deserves the title he worked very hard for without drugs.
I am confused to the why's and the how's and then why the hell's would Landis do it, but meh, who cares, no real say it in now.
He is confirmed a cheat, Oscar deserves the title he worked very hard for without drugs.
I am confused to the why's and the how's and then why the hell's would Landis do it, but meh, who cares, no real say it in now.
blue_neon
08-05-06, 04:49 AM
gawd, it's gone quiet...
I love your avatar/title combo!!!! haha very good! :D
I love your avatar/title combo!!!! haha very good! :D
cydewaze
08-05-06, 06:10 AM
I just read about this over on Eurosport.
Here's their excuse:
Landis' representative Michael Henson told Reuters via email that Landis' testosterone level was within a normal range, but the test was positive because of a low level of epitestosterone.
The UCI's doping test is based on the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone. Both occur naturally in the body, but the second is not performance enhancing.
The ratio of a normal person is 1:1 and any ratio over 4:1 is considered as evidence of doping by the UCI.
Henson confirmed initial reports that Landis' ratio was 11:1, but defended the testosterone count as normal.
"The testosterone value returned has been determined to be within a normal range. The epitestosterone value returned was low, thus causing the skewed ratio," he said.
How likely is that? And it still doesn't explain the synthetic stuff they detected.
Here's their excuse:
Landis' representative Michael Henson told Reuters via email that Landis' testosterone level was within a normal range, but the test was positive because of a low level of epitestosterone.
The UCI's doping test is based on the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone. Both occur naturally in the body, but the second is not performance enhancing.
The ratio of a normal person is 1:1 and any ratio over 4:1 is considered as evidence of doping by the UCI.
Henson confirmed initial reports that Landis' ratio was 11:1, but defended the testosterone count as normal.
"The testosterone value returned has been determined to be within a normal range. The epitestosterone value returned was low, thus causing the skewed ratio," he said.
How likely is that? And it still doesn't explain the synthetic stuff they detected.
baj32161
08-05-06, 06:20 AM
Oh well...this is just another reason why I am such a cynic.
Prince9931
08-05-06, 06:30 AM
Floyd didnt fail !!!!!!
He was caught .......... He's still a winner!
I am going to drink a few shots of JD and lift in the gym like crazy. If it makes him go fast imagine what'll do for me ! :p
He was caught .......... He's still a winner!
I am going to drink a few shots of JD and lift in the gym like crazy. If it makes him go fast imagine what'll do for me ! :p
cydewaze
08-05-06, 06:32 AM
Ugh, I started to type "Landis" in another thread and I accidentally started typing "Tyler".
twbradford
08-05-06, 07:16 AM
Blah Blah his own fault. Now come the excuses.
He is confirmed a cheat, Oscar deserves the title he worked very hard for without drugs.
I am confused to the why's and the how's and then why the hell's would Landis do it, but meh, who cares, no real say it in now.
....isn't that what Greg Lemond said about Landis when he won? "Lemond deserves the title he worked very hard for without drugs.".....only to eat his words later.
Lets not forget that Periero made a miraculous 28 min lead on the peloton to put him back into contention....and then rode his best time trial ever....while always staying in contention throughout the alps.....makes you wonder....how can you put out that kind of effort to gain 28mins? I bet even some amateur racers could have closed that gap down.
Landis only had to make up 8 minutes...... I wonder if Pereiro took something and did not get caught and Landis figured if it worked for him then maybe me.
Landis and Pereiro were close friends and former teammates.......
Perhaps that is why Landis states: "I was the strongest man in the tour".
And forget team mobile....they lose Ulrich due to doping and then all of a sudden the entire team is filled with supermen....who all manage to be top performers...LOL! It is the reverse of team discovery which won the tour 7 times and then tank when their leader is gone. Ulrich must really feel like a loser.....or was he happy his team mates didn't get busted for whatever they were on.
He is confirmed a cheat, Oscar deserves the title he worked very hard for without drugs.
I am confused to the why's and the how's and then why the hell's would Landis do it, but meh, who cares, no real say it in now.
....isn't that what Greg Lemond said about Landis when he won? "Lemond deserves the title he worked very hard for without drugs.".....only to eat his words later.
Lets not forget that Periero made a miraculous 28 min lead on the peloton to put him back into contention....and then rode his best time trial ever....while always staying in contention throughout the alps.....makes you wonder....how can you put out that kind of effort to gain 28mins? I bet even some amateur racers could have closed that gap down.
Landis only had to make up 8 minutes...... I wonder if Pereiro took something and did not get caught and Landis figured if it worked for him then maybe me.
Landis and Pereiro were close friends and former teammates.......
Perhaps that is why Landis states: "I was the strongest man in the tour".
And forget team mobile....they lose Ulrich due to doping and then all of a sudden the entire team is filled with supermen....who all manage to be top performers...LOL! It is the reverse of team discovery which won the tour 7 times and then tank when their leader is gone. Ulrich must really feel like a loser.....or was he happy his team mates didn't get busted for whatever they were on.
slvoid
08-05-06, 07:22 AM
Because they LET him gain 28 minutes.
twbradford
08-05-06, 07:25 AM
Landis' representative Michael Henson told Reuters via email that Landis' testosterone level was within a normal range, but the test was positive because of a low level of epitestosterone.
The UCI's doping test is based on the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone. Both occur naturally in the body, but the second is not performance enhancing.
The ratio of a normal person is 1:1 and any ratio over 4:1 is considered as evidence of doping by the UCI.
Henson confirmed initial reports that Landis' ratio was 11:1, but defended the testosterone count as normal.
"The testosterone value returned has been determined to be within a normal range. The epitestosterone value returned was low, thus causing the skewed ratio," he said.
So Phonak screwed up again. First they had Tylers blood mixed up. Now they forgot to balance the testosterone shots with the epitestosterone.
So you see that a screw up in the drugs back fired. I suspect Landis could sue his doctor and the team for malpractice....
The UCI's doping test is based on the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone. Both occur naturally in the body, but the second is not performance enhancing.
The ratio of a normal person is 1:1 and any ratio over 4:1 is considered as evidence of doping by the UCI.
Henson confirmed initial reports that Landis' ratio was 11:1, but defended the testosterone count as normal.
"The testosterone value returned has been determined to be within a normal range. The epitestosterone value returned was low, thus causing the skewed ratio," he said.
So Phonak screwed up again. First they had Tylers blood mixed up. Now they forgot to balance the testosterone shots with the epitestosterone.
So you see that a screw up in the drugs back fired. I suspect Landis could sue his doctor and the team for malpractice....
kosherdave
08-05-06, 08:40 AM
Sad...but "they" say it's true.
Here's an interesting comparison of
Landis and big breasts (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/sunday/la-oe-daum5aug05,0,1262645.column?coll=la-util-opinion-sunday).
That is actually a pretty thought provoking article. Thanks!
Here's an interesting comparison of
Landis and big breasts (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/sunday/la-oe-daum5aug05,0,1262645.column?coll=la-util-opinion-sunday).
That is actually a pretty thought provoking article. Thanks!
g3ck0
08-05-06, 05:00 PM
Blah Blah his own fault. Now come the excuses.
He is confirmed a cheat, Oscar deserves the title he worked very hard for without drugs.
I am confused to the why's and the how's and then why the hell's would Landis do it, but meh, who cares, no real say it in now.
HAHA. First of all, you don't KNOW he didn't take drugs. Second of all, Phonak LET him win, he does not deserve a win.
He is confirmed a cheat, Oscar deserves the title he worked very hard for without drugs.
I am confused to the why's and the how's and then why the hell's would Landis do it, but meh, who cares, no real say it in now.
HAHA. First of all, you don't KNOW he didn't take drugs. Second of all, Phonak LET him win, he does not deserve a win.
blue_neon
08-05-06, 06:40 PM
HAHA. First of all, you don't KNOW he didn't take drugs. Second of all, Phonak LET him win, he does not deserve a win.
These pathetic excuses by Landis supporters...unbelievable. First of all you dont KNOW that Oscar took drugs? Let along know one knows...like most of the other riders in the Tour, like a lot of other sports, like everything in this world. You can't live life saying 'well he might have taken drugs...there fore he dosn't deserve to win'. You can't make up comments based on nothing. You comment of Oscar taking drugs is a gut feeling...but Landis taking drugs is a confirmed FACT.
Anytime i have said anything about Landis on this sub-forum i get a huge truck re-buttle crap.
Landis DID drugs...he DID get caught...its HIS fault. Oscar however - innocent until proven guilty.
Whether Phonak let him win or not means jack, he won, he got himself across the line and good on him.
These pathetic excuses by Landis supporters...unbelievable. First of all you dont KNOW that Oscar took drugs? Let along know one knows...like most of the other riders in the Tour, like a lot of other sports, like everything in this world. You can't live life saying 'well he might have taken drugs...there fore he dosn't deserve to win'. You can't make up comments based on nothing. You comment of Oscar taking drugs is a gut feeling...but Landis taking drugs is a confirmed FACT.
Anytime i have said anything about Landis on this sub-forum i get a huge truck re-buttle crap.
Landis DID drugs...he DID get caught...its HIS fault. Oscar however - innocent until proven guilty.
Whether Phonak let him win or not means jack, he won, he got himself across the line and good on him.
flythebike
08-05-06, 07:05 PM
These pathetic excuses by Landis supporters...unbelievable. First of all you dont KNOW that Oscar took drugs? Let along know one knows...like most of the other riders in the Tour, like a lot of other sports, like everything in this world. You can't live life saying 'well he might have taken drugs...there fore he dosn't deserve to win'. You can't make up comments based on nothing. You comment of Oscar taking drugs is a gut feeling...but Landis taking drugs is a confirmed FACT.
Anytime i have said anything about Landis on this sub-forum i get a huge truck re-buttle crap.
Landis DID drugs...he DID get caught...its HIS fault. Oscar however - innocent until proven guilty.
Whether Phonak let him win or not means jack, he won, he got himself across the line and good on him.
+1.
Bike racing is tactical ok. If you take your chances and make your own luck, then you deserve to be rewarded.
Anytime i have said anything about Landis on this sub-forum i get a huge truck re-buttle crap.
Landis DID drugs...he DID get caught...its HIS fault. Oscar however - innocent until proven guilty.
Whether Phonak let him win or not means jack, he won, he got himself across the line and good on him.
+1.
Bike racing is tactical ok. If you take your chances and make your own luck, then you deserve to be rewarded.
Alekhine
08-05-06, 07:23 PM
Whether Phonak let him win or not means jack, he won, he got himself across the line and good on him.
Yep. He won the stage and got the yellow that day, and made up a whale of an amount of time to do it. That's a tactical mistake on Phonak's part* to assume the Spaniard wouldn't produce through the rest of the race - they got lucky Oscar didn't do more, considering Oscar still finished within a minute of Floyd in the final standings, even after Floyd's syntho-sack inspired stage 17. Team tactics are part of how the race is won or lost as much as individual effort is, and that was a lemon. Granted, it turned out to be the right move in the end (in a manner of speaking), so not a grave mistake when viewed through the 'hindsight is 20/20' filter, but they still shouldn't have allowed such a gap to a rider who had a history of placing in the top 10 in a previous tour that had stronger overall contenders.
*and for the same reason a mistake on T-Mobile's part for allowing Phonak to dictate a lazy pace in the peloton. Kloeden should probably be the guy looking at the default TdF win right now, not Periero.
Yep. He won the stage and got the yellow that day, and made up a whale of an amount of time to do it. That's a tactical mistake on Phonak's part* to assume the Spaniard wouldn't produce through the rest of the race - they got lucky Oscar didn't do more, considering Oscar still finished within a minute of Floyd in the final standings, even after Floyd's syntho-sack inspired stage 17. Team tactics are part of how the race is won or lost as much as individual effort is, and that was a lemon. Granted, it turned out to be the right move in the end (in a manner of speaking), so not a grave mistake when viewed through the 'hindsight is 20/20' filter, but they still shouldn't have allowed such a gap to a rider who had a history of placing in the top 10 in a previous tour that had stronger overall contenders.
*and for the same reason a mistake on T-Mobile's part for allowing Phonak to dictate a lazy pace in the peloton. Kloeden should probably be the guy looking at the default TdF win right now, not Periero.
domestique
08-05-06, 07:52 PM
I love the people who one week are praising Landis and the next are cursing his name. Are you so nieve to think that the other GC riders are clean?
Every GC rider dopes... this has been going on for over a century. The only difference is Landis got caught (prolly left his patch on too long...idiot).
p.s. I still like Landis and am waiting to hear his explanation. I just hope he doesn't try to pull a Tyler and make dumb mistakes. I would rather him just come out and say he doped (I would have a lot more respect for him)
Every GC rider dopes... this has been going on for over a century. The only difference is Landis got caught (prolly left his patch on too long...idiot).
p.s. I still like Landis and am waiting to hear his explanation. I just hope he doesn't try to pull a Tyler and make dumb mistakes. I would rather him just come out and say he doped (I would have a lot more respect for him)
rgerve
08-05-06, 07:53 PM
Any find it hard to believe that someone the size of Backstedt can complete the tour? Without drugs?
domestique
08-05-06, 08:10 PM
Any find it hard to believe that someone the size of Backstedt can complete the tour? Without drugs?
Just look at Boonen, Hincapie etc. who normally do well in either GC or points competions..... it really sucks when your supply of drugs and blood get stuck in a spainsh poice station
Just look at Boonen, Hincapie etc. who normally do well in either GC or points competions..... it really sucks when your supply of drugs and blood get stuck in a spainsh poice station
lanterne_rouge
08-05-06, 08:35 PM
Any find it hard to believe that someone the size of Backstedt can complete the tour? Without drugs?
I think if you check back you will find that MB did not complete the Tour this year; he abandoned during stage 14. He was also Lanterne Rouge after stage 4, and never higher than 150th in GC after that.
more information here :) (http://tdflr.blogspot.com/2006/07/stage-14-fatigue-follies.html)
lr
I think if you check back you will find that MB did not complete the Tour this year; he abandoned during stage 14. He was also Lanterne Rouge after stage 4, and never higher than 150th in GC after that.
more information here :) (http://tdflr.blogspot.com/2006/07/stage-14-fatigue-follies.html)
lr
flythebike
08-05-06, 08:43 PM
Just look at Boonen, Hincapie etc. who normally do well in either GC or points competions..... it really sucks when your supply of drugs and blood get stuck in a spainsh poice station
Boonen had a good race despite not winning the stage, held Yellow for longer than anybody else this year, I think. Hincapie missed out on a lot of competition this year after being injured (Thanks Trek!), and he was a fool to try for GC. At least he was smart enough to grab the Yellow Jersey for a day so the Tour wasn't a total loss for him.
I don't know if they all dope or not or what. I have no way to know. But when somebody like Landis returns a positive test then I figure that is good enough for me. He has been proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Boonen had a good race despite not winning the stage, held Yellow for longer than anybody else this year, I think. Hincapie missed out on a lot of competition this year after being injured (Thanks Trek!), and he was a fool to try for GC. At least he was smart enough to grab the Yellow Jersey for a day so the Tour wasn't a total loss for him.
I don't know if they all dope or not or what. I have no way to know. But when somebody like Landis returns a positive test then I figure that is good enough for me. He has been proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
flythebike
08-05-06, 08:45 PM
I love the people who one week are praising Landis and the next are cursing his name. Are you so nieve to think that the other GC riders are clean? )
Simply a case of misplaced belief meeting a rejection of denial. Very human for those who still believe in heros and have not lost hope to skepticism. I'd rather be 'nieve' than a skeptic.
Simply a case of misplaced belief meeting a rejection of denial. Very human for those who still believe in heros and have not lost hope to skepticism. I'd rather be 'nieve' than a skeptic.
blue_neon
08-05-06, 09:49 PM
I love the people who one week are praising Landis and the next are cursing his name. Are you so nieve to think that the other GC riders are clean?
I've hated Landis since i first saw his face. Sad, but true.
Whether the other riders are clean or not has not been proven, so assuming will not get you anywhere.
I've hated Landis since i first saw his face. Sad, but true.
Whether the other riders are clean or not has not been proven, so assuming will not get you anywhere.
gcc0
08-05-06, 10:23 PM
He cheated, and got caught. Now he should be banned and stripped of his title. Simple.
bbattle
08-06-06, 06:08 AM
If it is true that Landis' testosterone level is normal but his epi level is low; I'd like to know more about how this could be. Granted, this info. comes from Landis' lawyer but it was also stated earlier by some expert on ESPN after the A sample results were announced. This expert also said this test has not stood up in court in the past.
I'm not defending Landis but I do have questions and I'd like some answers. Where's that Google button?
Some info. here that says the test hasn't held up in court.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5590269
Bobsledder that had a 16:1 ratio in Olympic test declared innocent. Mary Decker Slaney had a similar incident
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/longterm/olympics1998/sport/bobsled/articles/shimer4.htm
The Effect of Alcohol Consumption on the Urinary Testosterone / Epitestosterone Ratio
By Dr Simon Davis B.Sc., Ph.D.
Summary
Intoxicating beverages contain a number of different forms of alcohol, the major constituent of which is ethanol. When a beverage is consumed the ethanol content passes through the stomach wall and digestive tract into the blood stream. Once the ethanol enters circulation it begins to alter the bodies� biochemistry. One such reaction is to differentially increase the rates of testosterone (T) and epitestosterone (E) metabolism. The overall effect of this reaction is to increase the ratio of T to E excreted in the urine.
It has been reported that ethanol consumption can increase urinary T/E ratios by 30% - 277% in healthy individuals. Observed changes in plasma T/E ratios can occur with the consumption of less than 2 pints of lager. The ingestion of ethanol by an individual will increase the T/E ratio observed in a urine sample.
It follows that if the effect of ethanol on T/E ratios is calculated relative to urinary E concentrations, it can be seen that increases in the ratio are exponential as E concentrations decrease. Individuals with naturally low E concentrations could, therefore, experience increases in T/E ratios of ? 940% greater than increases experienced in an individual with normal E concentrations. Calculations estimate that in individuals with low urinary E concentration, ratios of 17 to 1 or higher could have resulted from ethanol consumption without any administration of exogenous T.
The current T/E ratio test as performed by Kings College Laboratory and approved by the UK Sports, the IWF and IOC cannot discriminate between a 13 to 1 T/E ratio resulting from ethanol ingestion or a 13 to 1 ratio resulting from endogenous T administration.
http://www.velonews.com/phorum3/read.php?f=4&i=14893&t=14893#reply_14893
I'm not defending Landis but I do have questions and I'd like some answers. Where's that Google button?
Some info. here that says the test hasn't held up in court.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5590269
Bobsledder that had a 16:1 ratio in Olympic test declared innocent. Mary Decker Slaney had a similar incident
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/longterm/olympics1998/sport/bobsled/articles/shimer4.htm
The Effect of Alcohol Consumption on the Urinary Testosterone / Epitestosterone Ratio
By Dr Simon Davis B.Sc., Ph.D.
Summary
Intoxicating beverages contain a number of different forms of alcohol, the major constituent of which is ethanol. When a beverage is consumed the ethanol content passes through the stomach wall and digestive tract into the blood stream. Once the ethanol enters circulation it begins to alter the bodies� biochemistry. One such reaction is to differentially increase the rates of testosterone (T) and epitestosterone (E) metabolism. The overall effect of this reaction is to increase the ratio of T to E excreted in the urine.
It has been reported that ethanol consumption can increase urinary T/E ratios by 30% - 277% in healthy individuals. Observed changes in plasma T/E ratios can occur with the consumption of less than 2 pints of lager. The ingestion of ethanol by an individual will increase the T/E ratio observed in a urine sample.
It follows that if the effect of ethanol on T/E ratios is calculated relative to urinary E concentrations, it can be seen that increases in the ratio are exponential as E concentrations decrease. Individuals with naturally low E concentrations could, therefore, experience increases in T/E ratios of ? 940% greater than increases experienced in an individual with normal E concentrations. Calculations estimate that in individuals with low urinary E concentration, ratios of 17 to 1 or higher could have resulted from ethanol consumption without any administration of exogenous T.
The current T/E ratio test as performed by Kings College Laboratory and approved by the UK Sports, the IWF and IOC cannot discriminate between a 13 to 1 T/E ratio resulting from ethanol ingestion or a 13 to 1 ratio resulting from endogenous T administration.
http://www.velonews.com/phorum3/read.php?f=4&i=14893&t=14893#reply_14893
cyclezealot
08-06-06, 06:22 AM
Americans have the presumption of innocent until proven guilty. During the appeal process, Americans' are inclined to think this way. I am just not sure the testing procedures are totally reliable. When we are totally sure of his guilt, then we can all jump on him.
rgerve
08-06-06, 06:37 AM
I think if you check back you will find that MB did not complete the Tour this year; he abandoned during stage 14. He was also Lanterne Rouge after stage 4, and never higher than 150th in GC after that.
more information here :) (http://tdflr.blogspot.com/2006/07/stage-14-fatigue-follies.html)
lr
How did he do in years past?
more information here :) (http://tdflr.blogspot.com/2006/07/stage-14-fatigue-follies.html)
lr
How did he do in years past?
bbattle
08-06-06, 08:56 AM
Here's some more:
http://www.johnberardi.com/2006_07_01_archive.html
here is a good chance that Floyd didn't "cheat".
Of course, after hearing about the alleged doping allegations on TV, on the radio, on web blogs, and in chat rooms, one would think this was a cut and dry case. It's just another one of them damn cyclists trying to cut corners, break the rules, dope his way to the top.
Yet after talking with the Landis camp, and knowing a bit about the current drug testing procedures, anyone with half a brain knows that this is anything but a cut and dry case.
First of all, Floyd had at least 6 biological samples collected and tested during the Tour de France. Five of them came back clean. One of them, however, allegedly contained a high amount of testosterone relative to epitestosterone.
(If you don't know anything about this test, check out parts 1, 2, and 3 of my Steroid Manifesto article series here.)
But get this - Floyd was tested on three consecutive days. Interestingly, he was "clean" on day 1, "dirty" on day 2, and "clean" again on day 3. Something sounds kinda fishy, eh?
Now, personally, I don't know if Floyd used banned substances or not. However, I'm inclined to believe that he didn't. Here's why:
1) The Testosterone to Epitestosterone ratio is a poor test that can be affected by a number of factors including alcohol consumption. In fact, alcohol consumption can increase the T:E ratio by up to 300%.
Check out these two studies for more info:
Study 1
Study 2
Sure, I doubt Floyd was getting wasted during the Tour, but this points to one flaw in the testing method. There are more to come.
2) Sample handling is a critical issue with the T:E test. Several high profile cases have been thrown out as the T:E ratio can be profoundly impacted by less than optimal sample handling procedures. Leave the sample out in the sun for too long and you've got a false reading. Fail to chill the sample at optimal temperatures and you've got a false reading. Dehydrate the body (cycling does this, ya know) and you get a false reading. Send the sample to 2 different labs and you get 2 different results. Heck, even urinary bacteria (and other bacteria) can dramatically alter the T:E ratio. Click here to read a nice review of this topic.
3) The T:E test has so many problems that a newer test - a test that determines whether an athlete has exogenous testosterone in his/her body - has been developed. This techinque is called isotope ratio mass spectrometry.
I'm not really sure why this technique hasn't been used yet while the flawed T:E test is being used - but that's for cycling officials to address. If this test comes out containing exogenous (external) testosterone, then the case is more certain. If not, then we're looking at a potential false positive.
The only source for the radio isotope test being done on Landis' A sample is from the NY Times and they cite an unnamed UCI source. Oh, and L'Equipe newspaper.
"The New York Times reported Monday that tests on Landis' "A" sample show some of the testosterone in his system was synthetic, putting his defense into question. The report cited a person at the UCI with knowledge of the result.
McQuaid said he had not seen the lab findings, and could not confirm the news report. He and other UCI officials said the union's rule book restricts release of such information.
"It's big news, certainly, but it doesn't change the protocol," McQuaid said. "It's not our policy to give out details about such cases."
UCI spokesman Enrico Carpani insisted the results of the test are confidential and no one at the governing body would have leaked results to the Times."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2003167914_weblandis01.html
More speculation on the case: did Landis' handlers mess up his masking regimen during the time of his positive test? Possible, but not likely.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-0607310138jul31,1,4426539.column?page=2&coll=chi-sportscolumnistfront-hed
http://www.johnberardi.com/2006_07_01_archive.html
here is a good chance that Floyd didn't "cheat".
Of course, after hearing about the alleged doping allegations on TV, on the radio, on web blogs, and in chat rooms, one would think this was a cut and dry case. It's just another one of them damn cyclists trying to cut corners, break the rules, dope his way to the top.
Yet after talking with the Landis camp, and knowing a bit about the current drug testing procedures, anyone with half a brain knows that this is anything but a cut and dry case.
First of all, Floyd had at least 6 biological samples collected and tested during the Tour de France. Five of them came back clean. One of them, however, allegedly contained a high amount of testosterone relative to epitestosterone.
(If you don't know anything about this test, check out parts 1, 2, and 3 of my Steroid Manifesto article series here.)
But get this - Floyd was tested on three consecutive days. Interestingly, he was "clean" on day 1, "dirty" on day 2, and "clean" again on day 3. Something sounds kinda fishy, eh?
Now, personally, I don't know if Floyd used banned substances or not. However, I'm inclined to believe that he didn't. Here's why:
1) The Testosterone to Epitestosterone ratio is a poor test that can be affected by a number of factors including alcohol consumption. In fact, alcohol consumption can increase the T:E ratio by up to 300%.
Check out these two studies for more info:
Study 1
Study 2
Sure, I doubt Floyd was getting wasted during the Tour, but this points to one flaw in the testing method. There are more to come.
2) Sample handling is a critical issue with the T:E test. Several high profile cases have been thrown out as the T:E ratio can be profoundly impacted by less than optimal sample handling procedures. Leave the sample out in the sun for too long and you've got a false reading. Fail to chill the sample at optimal temperatures and you've got a false reading. Dehydrate the body (cycling does this, ya know) and you get a false reading. Send the sample to 2 different labs and you get 2 different results. Heck, even urinary bacteria (and other bacteria) can dramatically alter the T:E ratio. Click here to read a nice review of this topic.
3) The T:E test has so many problems that a newer test - a test that determines whether an athlete has exogenous testosterone in his/her body - has been developed. This techinque is called isotope ratio mass spectrometry.
I'm not really sure why this technique hasn't been used yet while the flawed T:E test is being used - but that's for cycling officials to address. If this test comes out containing exogenous (external) testosterone, then the case is more certain. If not, then we're looking at a potential false positive.
The only source for the radio isotope test being done on Landis' A sample is from the NY Times and they cite an unnamed UCI source. Oh, and L'Equipe newspaper.
"The New York Times reported Monday that tests on Landis' "A" sample show some of the testosterone in his system was synthetic, putting his defense into question. The report cited a person at the UCI with knowledge of the result.
McQuaid said he had not seen the lab findings, and could not confirm the news report. He and other UCI officials said the union's rule book restricts release of such information.
"It's big news, certainly, but it doesn't change the protocol," McQuaid said. "It's not our policy to give out details about such cases."
UCI spokesman Enrico Carpani insisted the results of the test are confidential and no one at the governing body would have leaked results to the Times."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2003167914_weblandis01.html
More speculation on the case: did Landis' handlers mess up his masking regimen during the time of his positive test? Possible, but not likely.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-0607310138jul31,1,4426539.column?page=2&coll=chi-sportscolumnistfront-hed
geraldatwork
08-06-06, 09:07 AM
Let Landis take a lie detector test. While not 100% accurate (are the doping tests 100% accurate?) if he failed the test it would certainly not make him look too good. OTOH if he passed it maybe it would give some credibility to his assertions that he didn't cheat.
barba
08-06-06, 09:09 AM
Let Landis take a lie detector test. While not 100% accurate (are the doping tests 100% accurate?) if he failed the test it would certainly not make him look too good. OTOH if he passed it maybe it would give some credibility to his assertions that he didn't cheat.
I would guess a lie detector is far less reliable than the drug tests.
I would guess a lie detector is far less reliable than the drug tests.
Karlotta
08-06-06, 11:28 AM
Note to bbattle: The bobsledder's overturning of the result was prior to the advent of the carbon isotope ratio test (IRMS)... and BTW, that test was done, and the positive results confirmed in the B-sample analysis. The UCI does not release test data. The teams may do that, or the individual, or perhaps it will com out officially in the USADA process.
From an article in Forbes:
Floyd Landis' doping samples contained synthetic testosterone, indicating the Tour de France champion's elevated levels were not produced naturally, the head of France's anti-doping commission said Saturday.
Pierre Bordry, who heads the French anti-doping council, said the lab found that testosterone in Landis' urine samples came from an outside source.
"I have received a text message from Chatenay-Malabry lab that indicates the 'B' sample of Floyd Landis' urine confirms testosterone was taken in an exogenous way," Bordry told The Associated Press.
http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/2006/08/05/ap2929445.html
Basically, your information assumes that the T:E ratio is the only evidence against Landis. That appears not to be the case.
From an article in Forbes:
Floyd Landis' doping samples contained synthetic testosterone, indicating the Tour de France champion's elevated levels were not produced naturally, the head of France's anti-doping commission said Saturday.
Pierre Bordry, who heads the French anti-doping council, said the lab found that testosterone in Landis' urine samples came from an outside source.
"I have received a text message from Chatenay-Malabry lab that indicates the 'B' sample of Floyd Landis' urine confirms testosterone was taken in an exogenous way," Bordry told The Associated Press.
http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/2006/08/05/ap2929445.html
Basically, your information assumes that the T:E ratio is the only evidence against Landis. That appears not to be the case.
lala
08-06-06, 12:28 PM
What if the team docter doped him with out his consent?
Jarery
08-06-06, 01:00 PM
What if the team docter doped him with out his consent?
Its always a probability, although doubtfull.
When you consider winning can amount to millions in new contracts, endoresements, etc. And all the support staff's livelyhood is directly related to their man winning, well then its always possible that someone didnt want to see their meal ticket disappear and snuck into floyds room at night and applied patches to his balls.:eek:
(yes I know it could be administered other ways)
The possibility is always there. Its low probablity, and pretty much impossible to prove. Even if they managed to have some support staff confess that they did it without floyds knowledge, everyone would think it was a paid off scapegoat.
So the end result is pretty much the same. Unless some miraculously believable reason can be shown, he'll go down as guilty.
Its always a probability, although doubtfull.
When you consider winning can amount to millions in new contracts, endoresements, etc. And all the support staff's livelyhood is directly related to their man winning, well then its always possible that someone didnt want to see their meal ticket disappear and snuck into floyds room at night and applied patches to his balls.:eek:
(yes I know it could be administered other ways)
The possibility is always there. Its low probablity, and pretty much impossible to prove. Even if they managed to have some support staff confess that they did it without floyds knowledge, everyone would think it was a paid off scapegoat.
So the end result is pretty much the same. Unless some miraculously believable reason can be shown, he'll go down as guilty.
erader
08-06-06, 01:24 PM
What if the team docter doped him with out his consent?
my buddy thinks landis pi** was spiked. i think he envisions some sort of vast french conspiracy :eek: .
i told him that i could possibly accept that far-fetched notion if i did not believe they all dope.
ed rader
my buddy thinks landis pi** was spiked. i think he envisions some sort of vast french conspiracy :eek: .
i told him that i could possibly accept that far-fetched notion if i did not believe they all dope.
ed rader
DogBoy
08-07-06, 04:01 PM
First off, I think he's probably guilty, but that said, I'm curious about the actual test results. I've heard from "leaks" that the IRM test was positive, but nothing official. Do we really know that the IRM test was positive? From Floyd's comments on his website it appears that the IRM test may not have been at issue.
I'm quite confused about the whole thing. How long until we get to hear the results of the lab tests? Will they ever be released, after the appeals process, before...when do we get to see them?
I guess a part of me wants him to beat the wrap on this...partly because he's from the US, partly because of the way he "won" the race, and mostly because I think all the pros do it and singling him out seems "unfair."
Also, why do the teams get to just wash their hands of the matter. I'm guessing it is usually team doctors setting up the doping strategy, shouldn't the team face the same consequences as the rider?
I'm quite confused about the whole thing. How long until we get to hear the results of the lab tests? Will they ever be released, after the appeals process, before...when do we get to see them?
I guess a part of me wants him to beat the wrap on this...partly because he's from the US, partly because of the way he "won" the race, and mostly because I think all the pros do it and singling him out seems "unfair."
Also, why do the teams get to just wash their hands of the matter. I'm guessing it is usually team doctors setting up the doping strategy, shouldn't the team face the same consequences as the rider?
Karlotta
08-07-06, 05:23 PM
First off, I think he's probably guilty, but that said, I'm curious about the actual test results. I've heard from "leaks" that the IRM test was positive, but nothing official. Do we really know that the IRM test was positive? From Floyd's comments on his website it appears that the IRM test may not have been at issue
I'm quite confused about the whole thing. How long until we get to hear the results of the lab tests? Will they ever be released, after the appeals process, before...when do we get to see them?
I guess a part of me wants him to beat the wrap on this...partly because he's from the US, partly because of the way he "won" the race, and mostly because I think all the pros do it and singling him out seems "unfair."
Also, why do the teams get to just wash their hands of the matter. I'm guessing it is usually team doctors setting up the doping strategy, shouldn't the team face the same consequences as the rider?
1) Floyd's personal physician Dr. Kay confirmed the positive IRMS test on the A-sample.
2) Don't know if the entire test packet will ever be released.
3) Floyd knew the rules. You get caught, you don't win. No one else got caught.
4) The team doctor didn't get a check for 500,000 euros for "winning". The team won't get any of the winning salary. And they've lost a major rider. But I agree they should be held more accountable.
I'm quite confused about the whole thing. How long until we get to hear the results of the lab tests? Will they ever be released, after the appeals process, before...when do we get to see them?
I guess a part of me wants him to beat the wrap on this...partly because he's from the US, partly because of the way he "won" the race, and mostly because I think all the pros do it and singling him out seems "unfair."
Also, why do the teams get to just wash their hands of the matter. I'm guessing it is usually team doctors setting up the doping strategy, shouldn't the team face the same consequences as the rider?
1) Floyd's personal physician Dr. Kay confirmed the positive IRMS test on the A-sample.
2) Don't know if the entire test packet will ever be released.
3) Floyd knew the rules. You get caught, you don't win. No one else got caught.
4) The team doctor didn't get a check for 500,000 euros for "winning". The team won't get any of the winning salary. And they've lost a major rider. But I agree they should be held more accountable.
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