Professional Cycling For the Fans - Should LeMond shut up now?

Your opinions?

Why ........ I mean all the guy did was bring in EPO into the spot light, well he did discover this after being shot. He paid his dues. But hey, life is full of surprises. He should be lauded as a pharmaceutical pioneer of the sport. I see why he talks as much as he does. He isn't getting his props. Damn Lance ........ see what you caused. Greg's a footnote. Glory hogger.

- nothing wrong with making a statement about doping and cycling when asked...

- but IMO he sounds like a jerk and an idiot - and is opening himself up to problems by making statements such as "I feel for Floyd's family. I hope Floyd will come clean on it and help the sport. We need to figure out how to clean the sport up, and we need the help of Floyd." (an AP story from this morning)

- nothing wrong with making a statement about doping and cycling when asked...

- but IMO he sounds like a jerk and an idiot - and is opening himself up to problems by making statements such as "I feel for Floyd's family. I hope Floyd will come clean on it and help the sport. We need to figure out how to clean the sport up, and we need the help of Floyd." (an AP story from this morning)

I may be naive, but I still don't see a problem with this statement. Do you think nothing should be done? And as of now, Floyd is a proven drug cheat....more's the pity.

Besides I just wanted to strt another LeMond thread:D ...afterall, he is nothing but a bitter old, fat, glory hogger:rolleyes:

I am also curious...would there be so many LeMond haters if Lance had never been the TdF winner he was? I am still waiting for someone to provide me with a quote where LeMond out and out accused Lance of doping...innuendo means nothing, as many of us are proving in the various Floyd threads, since that is all many of us are citing.

Cheers,

Brian

and yes I admit that I am still a LeMond fan...after 20 yrs.

Who cares what Lemond thinks. What's more interesting is how the American public will react to their new suburban middle-class healthy outdoorsy hobby being dragged through the sewers.

And now back to Golf !!!!!!!!

What does Landis' guilt have to do with Lemond's inability to be tactful? The two are separate issues that need to be evaluated separately.

Alright - which one of you contributed this to Wikipedia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_LeMond

***
In 2001, LeMond stirred up controversy, alleging that multiple-time Tour de France winner Lance Armstrong might be doping to improve his performance.[1] In July 2004, after additional Tour de France wins by Armstrong, LeMond commented again, "If Armstrong's clean, it's the greatest comeback. And if he's not, then it's the greatest fraud." [2] LeMond also declared to newspaper Le Monde: "Lance is ready to do anything to keep his secret. I don't know how he can continue to convince everybody of his innocence" [3].

In 2006, LeMond again made news when he alleged that Lance Armstrong had threatened him: "Lance threatened me. He threatened my wife, my business, my life," LeMond told French sports daily L'Equipe. "His biggest threat consisted of saying that he (Armstrong) would find ten people to testify that I took EPO." At one point in time LeMond had apologized to Armstrong, calling him "a great champion." [4]

Recently in 2006, Greg LeMond continued to spark controversy with his remarks regarding 2006 Tour de France winner Floyd Landis and the allegations against him for doping. In addition to calling for Landis to "speak the truth" if testing is positive for the next sample, LeMond has been quoted making another remark towards ex-Phonak teammate of Landis, Tyler Hamilton, saying, "I hope that (Landis) won't do what another American did: Deny, deny, deny." [5]

A recent poll at bikeforums.com showed that nearly 85 percent of people polled believe that Lemond "doped" at some point in his Tour de France career. [6]

***

I think it's fine if he wants to champion cleaning up the sport, but he ought to commit instead of doing this wishy washy sour grapes routine. Go ahead and be the poster child for the clean cycling campaign, but do it with conviction, do it with authority, and make it a second (3rd? 4th?) career, rather than being the oft-cited former hero who does armchair commentary on doping in cycling. At this point, he just sounds sanctimonious to me.

That's funny. Thanks for sharing.

Lemond is just trying desperately to stay current. I don't know why he feels like he needs to be in on the discussion. It would be like Mike Schmidt or Dave Kingman holding press conferences to discuss steroids in baseball.

Alright - which one of you contributed this to Wikipedia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_LeMond

***
In 2001, LeMond stirred up controversy, alleging that multiple-time Tour de France winner Lance Armstrong might be doping to improve his performance.[1] In July 2004, after additional Tour de France wins by Armstrong, LeMond commented again, "If Armstrong's clean, it's the greatest comeback. And if he's not, then it's the greatest fraud." [2] LeMond also declared to newspaper Le Monde: "Lance is ready to do anything to keep his secret. I don't know how he can continue to convince everybody of his innocence" [3].

In 2006, LeMond again made news when he alleged that Lance Armstrong had threatened him: "Lance threatened me. He threatened my wife, my business, my life," LeMond told French sports daily L'Equipe. "His biggest threat consisted of saying that he (Armstrong) would find ten people to testify that I took EPO." At one point in time LeMond had apologized to Armstrong, calling him "a great champion." [4]

Recently in 2006, Greg LeMond continued to spark controversy with his remarks regarding 2006 Tour de France winner Floyd Landis and the allegations against him for doping. In addition to calling for Landis to "speak the truth" if testing is positive for the next sample, LeMond has been quoted making another remark towards ex-Phonak teammate of Landis, Tyler Hamilton, saying, "I hope that (Landis) won't do what another American did: Deny, deny, deny." [5]

A recent poll at bikeforums.com showed that nearly 85 percent of people polled believe that Lemond "doped" at some point in his Tour de France career. [6]

***

I think it's fine if he wants to champion cleaning up the sport, but he ought to commit instead of doing this wishy washy sour grapes routine. Go ahead and be the poster child for the clean cycling campaign, but do it with conviction, do it with authority, and make it a second (3rd? 4th?) career, rather than being the oft-cited former hero who does armchair commentary on doping in cycling. At this point, he just sounds sanctimonious to me.



The good Doctor Ferrari........Lance's friend. Greg told him to stay away from him and Andy Hampsten did too. The good Doctor had a long track record. Since you must guys came in on the Livestrong bandwagon you wouldn't know. The funny thing is that most of the top 10 guys from last years tour are either suspended or under investigation for doping and you still believe the ********* beat them clean...??

What does Armstrong's guilt have to do with Lemond's tactlessness?

A recent poll at bikeforums.com showed that nearly 85 percent of people polled believe that Lemond "doped" at some point in his Tour de France career. [6]


bikeforums.net, please.

And yes Greg should shut his yapper. Just in general, I mean. The guy's a schizophrenic.

whatever your opinions of greg, he was a real hero when i was growing up, and when i began cycling seriously in the early 1980s. i've attached an article from the boston papers in which he states that the american that he's trying to get to admit to being guilty is tyler hamilton, not lance armstrong. perhaps we (and i am including myself) are guilty of assuming he's always been referring to lance when he's asked a particular american to 'come clean.'

I hope Armstrong shuts up. He's the really annoying one.

Most athletes are annoyingly inept at public speaking.

bikeforums.net, please.

I pasted from Wikipedia... by all means, go there and correct it! It is a wiki, after all... :) I was tempted, but had other things to do...

I hope Armstrong shuts up. He's the really annoying one.

I have no feelings either way on him...other than he refused to sign an autograph for me at the Pittsburgh Thrift Drug Classic years ago...

The good Doctor Ferrari........Lance's friend. Greg told him to stay away from him and Andy Hampsten did too. The good Doctor had a long track record. Since you must guys came in on the Livestrong bandwagon you wouldn't know. The funny thing is that most of the top 10 guys from last years tour are either suspended or under investigation for doping and you still believe the ********* beat them clean...??

Sigh... My post has nothing to do with Lance Armstrong. It was about Greg LeMond and his role as armchair commentator. I posted the bit from Wikipedia because a) it was a good summary of LeMond's involvement in the anti-doping sensationalism, and b) I thought it was funny that bikeforums was mentioned it it.

For the record, I think they all cheat. Some of them are just better at flying under the radar or hovering near that legal limit... and at fighting back.

Don't they do something in body building - where they have "free" competitions or something? So the users do one contest and the naturals do another? Maybe they should do that in cycling :p

Who cares what Lemond thinks. What's more interesting is how the American public will react to their new suburban middle-class healthy outdoorsy hobby being dragged through the sewers.

I hate to disappoint you, but I don't think that there will that much of a widespread reaction with respect to bicycle riding/racing in the US. The average American doesn't care.

I hate to disappoint you, but I don't think that there will that much of a widespread reaction with respect to bicycle riding/racing in the US. The average American doesn't care.

I think you're dead wrong about that. Almost everybody I know has the Tour de France on their radar screen, especially if an American is winning it. What the efffect will be on the sport remains to be seen.

More Lemond comments here: http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=2539409

The way you react to Lemond's comments, at least the ones above, probably have more to do with your position on Floyd's guilt than anything else. If you think he's guilty, then Lemond sounds like a realist. If you think he is innocent, then Lemond is a blowhard.

And for those who insist Lemond doped, prove it. Yes, he was on a Belgian team during the rise of EPO when lots of riders from that region were dying, probably from misuse of EPO. He was team-mates with Museeuw and Planckert. But don't you know people that are drunks? Does that make you a drunk? He never flunked a test and back in those days no one was calling him a doper. People like Fignon were testing postitive back in those days so it wasn't like people weren't out there looking for dopers.

I watched the 89 Tour. I saw the day Lemond took back the Yellow Jersey. He won my admiration and respect that day and I can't imagine he could ever lose it.

Whatever you think of his comments, his intentions are good. He is standing for a clean sport. He is trying to be a leader and stand up for the best interests of cycling. Again whether you agree with his comments probably have more to do with your feelings about Landis than anything else. In my mind, he is, at least, putting out a good message in the regard of standing against doping. The sport has NO FUTURE at the pro level without integrity.

Most of the people I know are at least aware of the TdF and the ongoing scandals associated with it (not just Landis) because I tend to hang out with people with similar interests as mine (as do most people) cycling is a major interest of mine and thus fellow cyclist friends are following the stories.

I don't know if Lemond doped or not and do not make such speculation but Lemond opened himself up to such speculation by repeatedly bringing up other's doping. Lemond has stated that he retired from cycling because of the rise of EPO and he thus couldn't compete except by using it and he didn't want to. He has also accused another predominant cyclist, without proof, of doping. Either of these two actions invite people to question his own doping history. As it is really easy to accuse people of doping he really should have seen this coming and shut his yap years ago.

Lemond's wins do not justify his worthless comments now or since it is very silly to bring them up at all. We all know he was a great cyclist and it is not his former abilities that are at debate. I don't for a second buy that he is working for a "clean" sport but rather he is working for his own image and legacy. His intentions are irrelevant as well, plenty of bad things occur from well intentioned actions.

Simply dismissing opposition to Lemond based on someone's personal feelings about the validity of his comments is useless at best.

Mmmm hmm. This is Lemond talking to VeloNews during their then-live coverage of Stage 13: (http://www.velonews.com/tick/html/stage69.html)


"It's great to see Floyd leading this race. He has a great personality... he's a real champion... a real talent. His VO2 max is up around 90. He's a complete rider. He's my favorite for this year and I hope he comes back after that hip replacement to win another Tour."

Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember a lot of people telling LeMond to shut his trap then....

Most of the people I know are at least aware of the TdF and the ongoing scandals associated with it (not just Landis) because I tend to hang out with people with similar interests as mine (as do most people) cycling is a major interest of mine and thus fellow cyclist friends are following the stories.

I don't know if Lemond doped or not and do not make such speculation but Lemond opened himself up to such speculation by repeatedly bringing up other's doping. Lemond has stated that he retired from cycling because of the rise of EPO and he thus couldn't compete except by using it and he didn't want to. He has also accused another predominant cyclist, without proof, of doping. Either of these two actions invite people to question his own doping history. As it is really easy to accuse people of doping he really should have seen this coming and shut his yap years ago.

Lemond's wins do not justify his worthless comments now or since it is very silly to bring them up at all. We all know he was a great cyclist and it is not his former abilities that are at debate. I don't for a second buy that he is working for a "clean" sport but rather he is working for his own image and legacy. His intentions are irrelevant as well, plenty of bad things occur from well intentioned actions.

Simply dismissing opposition to Lemond based on someone's personal feelings about the validity of his comments is useless at best.

lemond retired from cycling kicking and screaming because he no longer could compete. he even had a doctor assign to him an obscure, unverifiable malady to explain why he could no longer ride.

ed rader

He has also accused another predominant cyclist, without proof, of doping


I don't for a second buy that he is working for a "clean" sport but rather he is working for his own image and legacy. His intentions are irrelevant as well, plenty of bad things occur from well intentioned actions.


But no bad things have been caused by LeMonds actions. Indurain was an amazing cyclist but he probably was a doper and I don't think LeMonds insinuations have really damaged his reputation anyway.

bikeforums.net, please.

And yes Greg should shut his yapper. Just in general, I mean. The guy's a schizophrenic.

It was still a .com when the poll was taken.

I don't know if Lemond doped or not and do not make such speculation but Lemond opened himself up to such speculation by repeatedly bringing up other's doping. Lemond has stated that he retired from cycling because of the rise of EPO and he thus couldn't compete except by using it and he didn't want to.

That is circular logic and it is without merit. That is like saying "it takes one to know one".

I'd be curious to see a citation for this 'fact' that you keep mentioning about Lemond's retirement. As ed rader mentions he quit becuase he had 'mitochondrial myopathy.' He couldn't produce peak power anymore, according to this diagnosis. The fact that he was finally still overweight in July 1994 also had something to do with it, I think. He had a long career,pro from 1981 through 1994 so I don't fault him for that.

There is no doubt that his retirement coincided with the rise of EPO as a performance enhancer. In 1990, IIRC, 13 Dutch cyclists died under mysterious circumstances (http://www.michaelsokolove.com/michael_sokolove/inpursuitofdopedexcellence.htm). They were all normal young people who had 'congestive heart failure'. Right, and I'm a monkey's uncle. EPO thickens up the blood and combined with dehydration can evidently be very dangerous. It took them a few years to get the dosages right so people (mostly) stopped dying. However, I don't believe that there was a necessary cause and effect relationship. Lemond gave it his best shot to beat Indurain in 1991, after that it was downhill for him, at least as regards the Tour.

From that link above: "Between 1989 and 1992, seven Swedish competitors in orienteering -- a mix of running and hiking that is sometimes called "cross country with brains" -- died, apparently from heart attacks. Nearly all were in their 20's. As many as 18 Dutch and Belgian cyclists died under similarly mysterious circumstances between 1987 and 1990.

"At first they said it was some kind of virus, a respiratory virus," Wadler says. "But what kind of virus only knocks off the most fit individuals in their country? The autopsies were private. All the deaths were not definitively linked. But it was EPO. That was obvious to a lot of people.""

I didn't like Jose Canseco, and I don't like Greg Lemond. But they are probably both right.

Lemond is just trying desperately to stay current. I don't know why he feels like he needs to be in on the discussion. It would be like Mike Schmidt or Dave Kingman holding press conferences to discuss steroids in baseball.

Or worse, Dave Kingman giving lessons on how to be tactful or not act like an ass clown. :rolleyes:

Are we all to believe that Indurain was a simple Spanish farmer whose clean living lead to 5 TdF victories? EPO use at the time was widespread and tests to detect still in development.

And for those who insist Lemond doped, prove it. Yes, he was on a Belgian team during the rise of EPO when lots of riders from that region were dying, probably from misuse of EPO. He was team-mates with Museeuw and Planckert. But don't you know people that are drunks? Does that make you a drunk? He never flunked a test and back in those days no one was calling him a doper. People like Fignon were testing postitive back in those days so it wasn't like people weren't out there looking for dopers.



Weren't the first effective EPO tests developed around '93?

That is circular logic and it is without merit. That is like saying "it takes one to know one".

It is not circular logic- check your definitions. All I said was that speculation can fly without proof and Lemond, by making any speculation at all, draws fire upon his own past success. I have no idea if Lemond doped or not, nor do I ever make that assertion. My only problem with Lemond is that he makes problematic statements in very public forums very crudely. Mostly he comes across like most athletes (inept at public speaking) and does a disservice to himself and cycling. He most certainly has a right to say what he wishes without prior restraint, however, for the good of the sport (if that is indeed his motivation) he needs to quit interfering in ongoing investigations and quit convincing the country that cycling is a chemistry competition (although it might be).


I'd be curious to see a citation for this 'fact' that you keep mentioning about Lemond's retirement. As ed rader mentions he quit becuase he had 'mitochondrial myopathy.'...
I can't source the quote anymore as I read it years ago and do not memorize all facets of Lemond's rants. I cannot Google the quote because too many more recent Lemond sources appear. I don't remember the circumstances of the quote, perhaps someone else remembers.
Regarding the real reasons Lemond retired, it is irrelevant as Lemond, like everyone else, can make revisionist statements not based on fact.


I didn't like Jose Canseco, and I don't like Greg Lemond. But they are probably both right.
Anybody can still make correct assertions and yet be wrong in delivery. I am not challenging either athlete's knowledge but simply pointing out the obvious fact that the correctness of a statement does not justify it being said ineptly. Their bully-pulpit awarded for previous sporting success does not justify us listening to them.

I am not challenging either athlete's knowledge but simply pointing out the obvious fact that the correctness of a statement does not justify it being said ineptly. Their bully-pulpit awarded for previous sporting success does not justify us listening to them.

Then what does justify it? Who is "Qualified" in your mind to speak about this? Sports reporters?, Lawyers?, who is "justified and qualified"?

NO! Of course not! Speaking out against drug usage in sport should NEVER be looked down upon, unless your name is Lance Armstrong and you gotta threaten people's wives at 1 in the morning.

Greg. Shut your pie hole and ride your bike more. I lose a little more respect for you everytime you open your mouth.

Weren't the first effective EPO tests developed around '93?

But that is largely missing the point. Lemond was a pro for a long time before EPO was available. And people were testing positive for other things during that part of his career. So my logic is that if he was a doper, he would have been doping with other things until EPO came along into use in cycling which I believe was around 1989. (Although it has been around since 1983: http://www.amgen.com/pdfs/Fact_Sheet_Amgen.pdf) Therefore since he never tested positve for other substances, it is more than possible that he was clean and didn't use EPO either. Also since his last win was in 1992 and he didn't really race that well in 1991, I'm not convinced at all that he was doping. While he may be an outspoken ass, I don't really sense that he is a hypocrite.

Seems all sports have a problem with some form of substance abuse, rather blood doping, steroids, amphetimines, testerone, whatever the preferred choice is, and by many it seems to be an accepted way to become a winner, and it seems as if it is even endorsed to achieve a winner.
The demands by john Q. public, and corporate sponsers to produce a sports demigod becomes more and more challenging as the atheletes demand more and more money, and performance levels are pushed beyond human regularity and endurance.

{ex** I was put on a testerone patch do too a screwed up thyroid. did it help you bet, in my weight lifting, riding, stamina, endurance and performance.

And now back to Golf !!!!!!!!

Illegal modulus of elasticity on drivers...

Then what does justify it? Who is "Qualified" in your mind to speak about this? Sports reporters?, Lawyers?, who is "justified and qualified"?

Nothing justifies people making inept statements to the press- just because you can do something does not mean you should. Qualification has nothing to do with Lemond or whether he should he shut up; as this thread is about whether "Should Lemond shut up now?" the question is irrelevant. I have expressed my views on Lemond and whether he should shut up now (an empathetical yes) and am now done with this thread.

I have expressed my views on Lemond and whether he should shut up now (an empathetical yes) and am now done with this thread.

Well thanks for clearing up any ambiguity on that point! :p

The LeMond doping logic confuses me.

I hear "LeMond was a pioneer of EPO usage."

I hear that EPO hit the wider peloton by 1991.

However in '91 LeMond the defending champ was shot out the back with authority.

Did everyone else have better EPO?

There's as much proof that LeMond doped as Lance did, in other words no failed test. Seems Lance gets the bigger break.


:beer:

Nothing justifies people making inept statements to the press- just because you can do something does not mean you should. Qualification has nothing to do with Lemond or whether he should he shut up; as this thread is about whether "Should Lemond shut up now?" the question is irrelevant. I have expressed my views on Lemond and whether he should shut up now (an empathetical yes) and am now done with this thread.

Goodbye

To the Lance Armstrong Fan Club

The question isn't whether or not Lemond should shut up about speaking out against drug usage in sport. The question is whether or not Lance Armstong Fan Club members should shut up about repressing those that speak out against drug usage in sport. And to those Lance Armstrong Fan Club members whose only goal is to spit on Lemond, the answer is an undeniable YES. STFU LA Fan Club Members!

The brokenheart club..they are hurting, cancelling subscriptions to Velonews and CycleSport.....
etc....

Lemond? Lemond who? I thought it was a bike???:rolleyes:

Okay, I remember when Lemond won the first time. It was a huge moment that an american won a cycling event, THE cycling event. It was cool. But frankly having him complain that doping is ruining cycling is like Pete Rose declaring gambling is ruining baseball.

Lemond? Lemond who? I thought it was a bike???:rolleyes:

Okay, I remember when Lemond won the first time. It was a huge moment that an american won a cycling event, THE cycling event. It was cool. But frankly having him complain that doping is ruining cycling is like Pete Rose declaring gambling is ruining baseball.

I'm not sure that is an apt comparison. Care to explain?