"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - THIS is what Phlandis will do next....

He will ALA (Agaisnt Lawyer's Advice:D ) decide that he's had it and he will Come Clean and publicly confess!
Yes, I know this is a bold prediction, but I just don't think Phlandis has in him to keep on lying forever a la Lance.
Remeber the day after the A sample results came out? Phlandis sounded shaken, almost contrite, "this" close to admitting his guilt... And then he lawyered up and let hi phony pr people do the talking...

This is a testimony to the faith I have in Phloyd; I think that in the end he won't be able to live with it and just come clean. Its our only hope.:D

I hope so. Maybe his hip replacement will give him just the "nothing-to-lose" attitude he needs to rat a bunch of people out too. Time to clean house.

I hope so. Maybe his hip replacement will give him just the "nothing-to-lose" attitude he needs to rat a bunch of people out too. Time to clean house.

Very true, I hadn't thought of it that way. This is an even better incentive to take the high road, than just the impulse to be honest... Of course this is assuming that he was completly on the up and up when it came to his hip problems;)

I hope so. Maybe his hip replacement will give him just the "nothing-to-lose" attitude he needs to rat a bunch of people out too. Time to clean house.

Interesting. How come no one else has done this yet? Or have they and I've just missed it? i;m talking here about a full expose. Are the banned riders afraid that speaking out means that no one will want to touch with them after the 2 year ban has ended - because they know they will just have to dope again?

So there's no hope left at all that this guy really didn't cheat? ....That somehow, some way this was a natural thing or a tampered-with test?

I'm just having such a difficult time swallowing this whole, "All pro cyclists are dopers" thing....

I was right there with ya, Hip, but the more I learn about the testing methods, and the more I realize that these guys can't get away with this stuff without the help of the team infrastructure, the harder time I have believing that these guys are clean.

There's still a WAY outside chance that he really is innocent, but if he really had this "naturally high" testosterone it would've popped up by now, don't you think?

Interesting. How come no one else has done this yet? Or have they and I've just missed it? i;m talking here about a full expose. Are the banned riders afraid that speaking out means that no one will want to touch with them after the 2 year ban has ended - because they know they will just have to dope again?


You hit the nail on the head. You speak out and do a complete "expose" and you will be ostracised by everyone in biking. All your buddies, teamates, etc will never look at you, let alone talk to you again... That's a hell of a thing to comtemplate when you think of it.
The equivalent would be the mafia's "Omerta" (law of silence). Except they are no upsides to breaking it in cycling...
Even when they are clearly busted, a la Hamilton, there is still quiet support by other riders for the busted cyclist. Because they know it could happen to them in a heart beat. (check out the Hincapie link to Tyler Hamilton's web site...)
This "law of silence" explains why Armstrong and other cyclists dislike Lemond so much. Looks like Lemond might just spill the beans.... (Though Greg has no credibility if he doesn't come clean himself, which he has not done.)

You hit the nail on the head. You speak out and do a complete "expose" and you will be ostracised by everyone in biking. All your buddies, teamates, etc will never look at you, let alone talk to you again... That's a hell of a thing to comtemplate when you think of it.
The equivalent would be the mafia's "Omerta" (law of silence). Except they are no upsides to breaking it in cycling...
Even when they are clearly busted, a la Hamilton, there is still quiet support by other riders for the busted cyclist. Because they know it could happen to them in a heart beat. (check out the Hincapie link to Tyler Hamilton's web site...)
This "law of silence" explains why Armstrong and other cyclists dislike Lemond so much. Looks like Lemond might just spill the beans.... (Though Greg has no credibility if he doesn't come clean himself, which he has not done.)
It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few months and if Floyd's hip situation affects this at all. I'm hoping there is still an explanation (besides cheating) for what happened, buyt those hopes are diminishing. If Floyd has trouble coming back from teh hip operation I wonder if maybe that might tip the scales and get him to do such an expose.

Well it is highly doubtful that he will come clean as he has already made a statement that he is innocent and that he is going to fight the charge.

So there's no hope left at all that this guy really didn't cheat? ....That somehow, some way this was a natural thing or a tampered-with test?

I'm just having such a difficult time swallowing this whole, "All pro cyclists are dopers" thing....

Man, I feel your pain. Maybe the way to look at it is that when you sit down and think about it, it would be impossible to compete in the TdF without doping. Think of the back to back stages! Imagine a 3 week event where runners would have to run half-marathons followed by Marathons Everyday!! That's basically it.

Don't get me wrong, I think doping goes on in most other pro-sports, but in cycling its a sine qua non. Which explains why its so ingrained. Which also explains why the riders can't come clean. Its a sort of catch 22 situation for the organizers too, since without doping the stage would have to much, much shorter. And slower. And maybe, just maybe, the public would be less interested....

It do think that pro-cyclists are caught between a rock and a hard place here. Of course they all dope, they have to --whether they like it or not. They can't admit it, lest they be ostracised and singled out for the rest of their careers. And if they don't dope, they might as well quit.

Well it is highly doubtful that he will come clean as he has already made a statement that he is innocent and that he is going to fight the charge.

Even Pete Rose eventually came clean. And I really think Phlandis will do so --much sooner than Pete did.

Interesting. How come no one else has done this yet? Or have they and I've just missed it? i;m talking here about a full expose. Are the banned riders afraid that speaking out means that no one will want to touch with them after the 2 year ban has ended - because they know they will just have to dope again?

Jose Canseco did this. Everyone hates him... not that they liked him before he outed everyone though.

David Millar came clean. Now he's racing again. Seems that most have accepted him back.
I wish Floyd had come clean right from the start. Is it too late for that now? I think the lawyers have given him some pretty bad advice...and have steered him in the wrong direction. Greg Lemond said right from the start that he hoped Floyd would take the high road. That is the best advice Floyd received. But then the lawyers took control...and Floyd fell under their influence. GAME OVER!

Man, I feel your pain. Maybe the way to look at it is that when you sit down and think about it, it would be impossible to compete in the TdF without doping. Think of the back to back stages! Imagine a 3 week event where runners would have to run half-marathons followed by Marathons Everyday!! That's basically it.

Don't get me wrong, I think doping goes on in most other pro-sports, but in cycling its a sine qua non. Which explains why its so ingrained. Which also explains why the riders can't come clean. Its a sort of catch 22 situation for the organizers too, since without doping the stage would have to much, much shorter. And slower. And maybe, just maybe, the public would be less interested....

It do think that pro-cyclists are caught between a rock and a hard place here. Of course they all dope, they have to --whether they like it or not. They can't admit it, lest they be ostracised and singled out for the rest of their careers. And if they don't dope, they might as well quit.

Interesting thoughts.

It IS crazy what those guys can do.

I'd be for shorter, easier stages and not having to dope to do them then....yes....I'd still watch and be a fan.

So there's no hope left at all that this guy really didn't cheat? ....That somehow, some way this was a natural thing or a tampered-with test?

I'm just having such a difficult time swallowing this whole, "All pro cyclists are dopers" thing....

Hip...there is hope. The science will win out in the end. The testing is going to become so good that the cheaters are going to be exposed. They will all be flushed out.

Regarding Floyd, I think he cheated. It's time to get real, no matter how likeable he is--no matter how inspirational was his ride in the Tour. I'll always stand on the side of the science and the testing...because in the end, it will be the science and the testing that make our sport clean again. No one is out to get Floyd. That is just silly. I hope Floyd will regroup quickly, then come back and tell us he cheated. "Take the high road"...as Greg Lemond advised. He could be racing again in 2 years.

Interesting thoughts.

It IS crazy what those guys can do.

I'd be for shorter, easier stages and not having to dope to do them then....yes....I'd still watch and be a fan.

I don't think I'd be for changing the race too much. That is the beauty of the race...is that it is hard.

Wasn't the Tour just as hard in the 1970's ala Merckx? Was doping as widespread then as it is now?
Interesting things happen in the race when the riders get tired. It's the Tour de France. They're supposed to get tired. They're supposed to get exhausted. It's the Tour de France...the toughest sporting event on the planet.

Doping has been going on in cycling for over 100 years, it's not going to stop.

If Floyd fessed up and told all he knew, everyone would discredit him, say he was a jealous loser/liar. Meanwhile, The next hero who dopes himself to the gills and dies on the roadside will get a monument.

If the stages are shorter...they will still dope if they can get away with it. Doping will still help them win.
Testing is the answer. Better testing methods are going to flush them all out. It's starting now. The science always wins...in the end.

Doping has been going on in cycling for over 100 years, it's not going to stop.

If Floyd fessed up and told all he knew, everyone would discredit him, say he was a jealous loser/liar. Meanwhile, The next hero who dopes himself to the gills and dies on the roadside will get a monument.

Riders will always dope if they can get away with it. Better science will end it. It's coming. The dopers will not have a chance.

Like I said in other threads, if he owns up he needs to do it with a book deal. It could be called "Secrets of the Circus"

He was fired.
Presumably, has no income.
Who is going to pay for the new hip now?

How long before Flandis is selling tubes and tires in the bike section of Wal-mart?

David Millar came clean. Now he's racing again. Seems that most have accepted him back.
I wish Floyd had come clean right from the start. Is it too late for that now? I think the lawyers have given him some pretty bad advice...and have steered him in the wrong direction. Greg Lemond said right from the start that he hoped Floyd would take the high road. That is the best advice Floyd received. But then the lawyers took control...and Floyd fell under their influence. GAME OVER!

two differences - the first is that millar admitted his doping, but didn't out anyone else. no exposing the entire culture to the light of day, just himself. so he wasn't ostracized. second, his ban began just before the new protour rules started, so he was only banned for two years, and he's young enough to come back from that and still have a career ahead of him. flandis, on the other hand, is looking at 4 years, and he's just too old to come back after that

"There's still a WAY outside chance that he really is innocent, but if he really had this "naturally high" testosterone it would've popped up by now, don't you think?" - Dr Pete

i don't think the A and B samples and natural testosterone are his problem. i think, ultimately, the CIR test is what's going to be the stake in his heart. people have beaten a positive testosterone test, but this CIR one looks pretty tough


smoke

Some of Landis' earlier statements (I'm going to say...") seem to indicate that he is a man unused to telling lies. Allowing lawyers to twist the truth for him may or may not be more acceptable.

The science always wins...in the end.

But cheating is ALSO a science. And it has managed and will ALWAYS manage to stay a step ahead of the counter-science.

--Steve

What would be truly amazing is if he come sclean and lists all the riders he knows that dopes. Including Lance.... who would in turn list all of his contacts and so forth. Basically destroying the Euro peloton and finally letting everyone see that EVERYONE DOPES.

We all know everyone dopes..... it dosen't effect how I view the sport. I will always love bike racing but I hate seeing how one rider loses his career just because he mistakenly left his steroid patch on too long and got caught.

So there's no hope left at all that this guy really didn't cheat? ....That somehow, some way this was a natural thing or a tampered-with test?

I'm just having such a difficult time swallowing this whole, "All pro cyclists are dopers" thing....

I am waiting for the results of the subsequent tests. I am waiting to learn about the new steroid that magically leaves your system with no trace after one day.

I am waiting to learn about the new steroid that magically leaves your system with no trace after one day.


Yes, see. That's been my conundrum all along. The press/news we receive all indicate that it was not a high level of testosterone, but a low level of epitestosterone. I'm looking for someone to explain how adding testosterone to your system would not raise it.

I'm no scientist. This is the part I just don't get - whether he did something or not.

If you want to level the playing field then all pro riders should be issued mandatory steroids and tested regularly to make sure they are taking their "suppliments" per their contract. Personally, I'd love to see 7 foot tall riders burning up Huez at 20 miles an hour with legs the size of Texas. I don't care about their health. I just want to be entertained!

ok, satire mode off.

This is a testimony to the faith I have in Phloyd; I think that in the end he won't be able to live with it and just come clean. Its our only hope.:D

If he really did dope knowingly, I think his mom and dad would be more proud of him coming clean about it. Parents and family are the ones we have to look in the eye. We know they will defend us to almost no ends, but they usually are the first to comfort when the rest of the world collapses around us.


The David Millar approach worked well for David Millar (though I don't think he dragged any others along with him, did he?)

The Tyler Hamilton approach of spending the rest of eternity fighting to clear one's name against overwhelming evidence of guilt doesn't work so well.

Floyd.... well, he's got to make a decision. May he choose his battles wisely to ultimately be able to live with himself and his family/friends. We (the cycling obsessed know-it-all internet geeks) don't mean a whole lot in the big scheme, so hopefully we don't factor into his need to feel like a champion.

Doping has been going on in cycling for over 100 years, it's not going to stop.

If Floyd fessed up and told all he knew, everyone would discredit him, say he was a jealous loser/liar. Meanwhile, The next hero who dopes himself to the gills and dies on the roadside will get a monument.

+1

+1

Sad to say, but I also agree. That is what pro cycling is.

IMHO Floyd still respects his parents and the honesty of their life. If he knowingly doped I do not think that he could live with the lie. For him there is no need to throw everyone under the drug bus If he desires to live a life of truth he need only to step up to the microphone and tell the truth. If he did that he would epitomize the same strength he did during stage 17. HEY FLOYD...DUMP THE LYING LAWYERS...It is time to speak the truth. Whatever it is we will know...JUST DUMP THE LAWYERS...the money ain't worth it!

Sincerely,

A fan and admirer

Everyone seems to believe that the did the patch. I think it went like this:
1 - Floyd was on Testosterone for months, not hours. His docs made sure that his t/e levels were within limits, so no CIR test

2 - Floyd gets hammered the night before stage 17, causes his t/e numbers to shift

3 - His T/E numbers test prompt the CIR test.

Hence, only the stage 17 test shows abnormal t/e. I'll bet if they (WADA) go back and test all the previous samples this will become obvious.

Remember, these guys know exactly what constitutes a "failed" test, and they set their dosages accrodingly. A passed test doesn't mean innocence.

BTW, there is alot more money in cycling team budgets that WADA's budget.

Floyd Landis is innocent... it just doesn't make sense for him to use testosterone. Useing testosterone would not make sense if only used for one day. it just doesn't make sense and floyd is smarter and too hard of a worker to cheat

Floyd Landis is innocent... it just doesn't make sense for him to use testosterone. Useing testosterone would not make sense if only used for one day. it just doesn't make sense and floyd is smarter and too hard of a worker to cheat


I'm hoping he's innocent, but someone suggested on another thread that perhaps he got a blood
transfusion before that stage. If that blood wasn't properly "scrubbed" of synthetic testosterone
or other doping products then it would show up as a positive test even if he weren't still
actively taking that stuff.

A question for you docs out there - would getting a blood transfusion before that stage help
him out significantly? I think it's already been said that taking synthetic testosterone for one
day would not help. But what about other forms of doping? Is there anything else that could
help him for one day?

So there's no hope left at all that this guy really didn't cheat? ....That somehow, some way this was a natural thing or a tampered-with test?

I'm just having such a difficult time swallowing this whole, "All pro cyclists are dopers" thing....

I think the odds are extremely low. He's got 2 chances to avoid being sanctioned. One, establish that the test wasn't performed correctly, and there is some error in the chain of custody, or the labwork. This is unlikely, particularly given the 4 positive tests, and all the procedures (such as the right to observe the B sample test) that are in place to avoid this type of challenge. Two, attack the scientific validity of the isotope test. So far, the drug testing experts seem pretty confident that this is a solid test, and I haven't heard anything with any substance attacking the science behind the Isotope test. All the rest of the internet type arguments (they could have put something in his water bottle, he wouldn't be that stupid, there's no advantage, its a french conspiracy, etc etc.) will not amount to a hill of beans in the USADA proceedings, or in the Arbitration before the Court of Arbitration for Sport, if it gets that far. I would be willing to be that the chance Landis walks is well below 10%.

All of these "Wow Floyd go" to "Floyd Sucks".

I am saying let us see what Floyd and Tyler continued to do to prove their case.

Anybody can plea guilty to get it over with.

Nobody is questioning the people who control this UCI,WADA.



S/F,
CEYA!

Floyd was on the Adam Carolla radio program this morning. Floyd is claiming that there is a possibility the test was tampered with. He is defiant that he is still innocent. They had a lie detector set up for him... but he declined. (On the advice of his lawyer.)

The irony would be transfering tour title to runner-up Paneirro wassis-name, who is just as likely to have been doping. If you buy the premise that doping is just as prevalent but simply better hidden today.

Sad to say, but I also agree. That is what pro cycling is.

It is sad. I would say that as a short-time fan, what I've learned here and from reading all of the doping-related stuff that's come out recently, I am already losing interest. Actually I would say I've pretty much lost it altogether. Add to that my wife, who just this year started getting interest in the Tour, watching many stages with me. I give her periodic updates on the Landis situation and she's just infuriated.

When you're new to the sport like me you see this whole façade, hear the talk about superhuman strength and endurance, bla bla bla, and it's pretty easy (though perhaps naïve) to buy into the idea that if not perfect, at least maybe "most" of the guys are clean. But the more I read, the less likely that seems.

It may not matter to anyone and it may be totally unrealistic to expect, but my stance is, I do not support cheating, whether everyone does it or one guy -- it's still cheating. True, you'll probably never completely eliminate it, but at least it could be curtailed severely, at least expect that the majority of the riders are clean. I'd settle for that if it could be shown somehow but history does not seem to provide much hope for that.

I don't really have any interest in supporting the idea that "they all do it just get over it". They may all do it, but my way of getting over it is to say "f*ck 'em" -- I ain't gonna watch or support. They don't need me and I don't need them so no loss I guess. However: I suspect I'm not the only one and I'm beginning to have less sympathy for those who lament the lack of cycling coverage in the media.


As to the OP: It would be great if he did but it probably isn't going to happen. There's no incentive for him to do it, at least not right now. The 2-year ban will be excellent recovery & training time to stage his comeback following hip replacement.