Training & Nutrition - Is raw milk better for you?

We have begun milking a Saanen goat. Her milk is wonderful. The fat globules in goat milk are different and smaller.

We drank low fat milk (2%) before. Now, we are drinking raw whole milk. We keep it clean when it is milked, filter it, and immediately chill it. My wife made Rigotta cheese and put it in lasgna the other night. It was terrific!

I am learning to make different cheeses. We have started a batch of Chevre and I am looking forward to trying it.

Is raw whole milk better for you?

A big YES to that. Apart from anything else fresh raw milk tastes SOO much better than the regular stuff. See http://www.realmilk.com/ I've drunk both raw goats and cows milk and its great stuff.

Regards, Anthony

Its against the law in many places due to health reasons. So if you consider death being 'better for you', then by all means, go for it.

Of course many nutbar sites claim untrue health benefits and would rather risk peoples lives in an effort to promote their nutbar sites.

These same sites make all kinds of untrue claims. Like the ones we discussed last week where they claimed our skim milk was reconstituted. You can read the false facts from the above mentioned site or.....

You can read the fda's advice http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2004/504_milk.html

Or a Canadian Health site http://www.foodsafetynetwork.ca/en/news-details.php?a=4&c=30&sc=288&id=57172

And we even have a site with lots of facts regarding the above mentioned site http://www.notmilk.com/forum/463.html

From your first site: "More than 300 people in the United States got sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk in 2001, and nearly 200 became ill from these products in 2002, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Raw milk may harbor a host of disease-causing organisms (pathogens), such as the bacteria campylobacter, escherichia, listeria, salmonella, yersinia, and brucella. Common symptoms of foodborne illness from many of these types of bacteria include diarrhea, stomach cramps, fever, headache, vomiting, and exhaustion."

A whole 300? My oh my... Of course I wonder how many got sick from eating "inspected food" while dining out. I've open my share of milk cartons and tried to pour out milk that came out in clumps.

If your animals are healthy, your practices clean, and your temperatures right I cannot see what the risks are. The above listed bacteria don't naturally occur in milk. They are contaminents.

Why did you start a thread asking if it was good for you?
You already have your opinion firmly planted, you aren't looking for differing opinions or advice.

Appears to me like a troll thread. You got your desired response. Gratz.

I get my goat milk from my friend's farm. We pasteurize it though, she recommends it.

www.doremifarm.com

I get my chickens, eggs, and once in awhile, goat meat from there. Good stuff. Non-commercial.

From your first site: "More than 300 people in the United States got sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk in 2001, and nearly 200 became ill from these products in 2002, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Raw milk may harbor a host of disease-causing organisms (pathogens), such as the bacteria campylobacter, escherichia, listeria, salmonella, yersinia, and brucella. Common symptoms of foodborne illness from many of these types of bacteria include diarrhea, stomach cramps, fever, headache, vomiting, and exhaustion."

A whole 300? My oh my... Of course I wonder how many got sick from eating "inspected food" while dining out. I've open my share of milk cartons and tried to pour out milk that came out in clumps.

If your animals are healthy, your practices clean, and your temperatures right I cannot see what the risks are. The above listed bacteria don't naturally occur in milk. They are contaminents.


Well duh. Of course more than 300 people got sick from eating "inspected food".

The sane people realize that there is around a third of a BILLION people in this country who consume some amount of pasteurized milk on a regular basis.
Compare that to the thousands who drink raw milk every day.

But knock yourself out and stick your lips on the udders if you want to. I'll stick with the "inspected food" myself.

I get my goat milk from my friend's farm. We pasteurize it though, she recommends it.

www.doremifarm.com

I get my chickens, eggs, and once in awhile, goat meat from there. Good stuff. Non-commercial.

I'd say that you deserve the goat meat since you were shoveling the manure. Did you ever read the book "The Omnivore's Dilemma"? Your friends are instantly recognizable in what they are doing. :)

I don't know about other nutritional benefits, but there something in raw milk and non-pasteurized cheeses that make me experience fewer lactose intolerance symptoms, whether it's from goat or cow. That said, I'm really hesitant to consume it without knowing where it came from and what their hygenic practices are. The recent cases of contaminated raw milk around here all stemmed from cleanliness issues. You'd think it would be a no-brainer to even a nonexpert that you have to keep the animals' living quarters really clean if you aren't going to pasteurize the milk. Of course, you know what you're getting if you're raising your own.

There is next to no evidence showing that unpasturized dairy causes any ilnesses. Most of the cases against unpasturized milk is based on predudice rather than facts. A few years ago if a regular comercial dairy caused ilness in its customers then it would be deemed that the pasturization proccess failed even though there was NO evidence to show that it had and so the statistics would say that unpasturized dairy caused the ilness and not pasturized dairy.

It still goes on. If any disease outbreak occurs and any of the group has had unpasturized dairy then that is considered the cause even though they can test the source of raw dairy and find nothing wrong. E-coli is used as a scarey name like it the devil itself yet did you know that e-coli is infact a PROBIOTIC that gives chesses there flavor. Benificial strains of e-coli PROTECT us against harmful strains of e-coli so its rather a complicated situation yet if you here some sort of report of some e-coli contamination ther only counting the total e-coli population because its difficult to break it down to good and bad e-coli and the equipment to do this is rare but it doesn't stop our health officials from going off at the mouth.

Sure good hygene is important but often whats considered good hygene is going overboard. Its a scorched earth policy using harmful antibiotic chemicals where basic hygene is enough and actualy safer.

Again it comes down to faith. I have faith in mother natures way or Gods way. If milk needed to be pasturized then it would come out of the teat pasturized. Mothers milk would be pasturized but its just not the case. Pasturization is a sledge hammer to crack a walnut and the ongoing use of pasturization is evidence of our poor understanding of making and selling dairy.

I've drunk raw milk which I have left stand on the bench top for 24 hours to sour. DO NOT do this with pasturized milk.

Regards, Anthony

Raw milk really comes out sterile. It should be safe to drink if it doesn't come into contact with germs. But you know, about 25% of men don't wash their hands after using the bathroom.

I grew up drinking buffalo and cow milk that was not treated in any manner. The milkman will deliver milk every day, we boil it 2-3 times a day and keep it covered. We did not have refrigerator until about 4 years ago. I now live in United States but my parents still use the same raw milk.

You should definitely boil the milk before using it, that should kill any germs.

I have faith in mother natures way or Gods way. If milk needed to be pasturized then it would come out of the teat pasturized.

Mother Nature's way, I would suggest, is for us not to be drinking another animal's milk in the first place, and certainly not to make them lactate continuously by depriving them of their offspring - what mother would approve of that? God's way, as untold millions of deaths can testify, is the subject of energetic debate.



Having said which, I had raw milk once and it was absolutely delicious.

I grew up drinking buffalo and cow milk that was not treated in any manner. The milkman will deliver milk every day, we boil it 2-3 times a day and keep it covered. We did not have refrigerator until about 4 years ago. I now live in United States but my parents still use the same raw milk.

You should definitely boil the milk before using it, that should kill any germs.

Your parents have been pasteurizing your milk. :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization

Raw milk is great!! Pateurization is a technique for people who aren't farmers to make money off others hard work.

Comming from a dairy family I'll say that while raw milk (when fresh) is pretty safe, it's also got a whole heckuva lot more fat. Is it better for you than a jug of 1% from the grocery? No. It's processed for a reason. Good reason. But if you're milking 'em your self, why not?

Raw milk is great!! Pateurization is a technique for people who aren't farmers to make money off others hard work.

You mean like Louis Pasteur? Pasteurization is done to ensure milk has no pathogens in it or bacteria that will cause the milk to sour. Pasteur developed the process to increase milk's shelf life. It was a solution to a problem(soured milk). He didn't create the process as a conspiracy to make money off of other's hard work.

We continue this process today. It is heating it up to 160 degrees for 1 minute. There are now many variants on this process. You can safely drink raw milk. BUT, you must have impecable instruments and technique. This includes testing the milk/udder for bacteria EVERY time you milk it. Raw milk will not last as long as pasteurized milk.

Just as we can get infections after a surgery even with the use of sterile gauze, drapes, instruments, and skin scrubbed with iodine, nolvasan, and alcohol, AND a dose of antibiotics, we can get infected milk.

Don't kid yourself into thinking you can get sterile milk from the goat, when the goat's teats may be covered with dirt and manure. You may do a teat dip or a scrub, but it won't be sterile. There are chemical sterilants, but these are not compatible with living skin. They typically contain gluteraldehyde and must be in contact with the object for several hours.

From what I recall pasturization was developed by Louis Pasteur for the brewing industry. Exploding bottles wasn't desirable. It was used in the dairy industry as a solution to a paticuarly bad outbreak of disease caused by contaminated milk.

Now in this case the cause of the contamination was absolutely filfthy conditions in the dairy which was an early confinement dairy with the cows being fed brewery waste products. The solution was good hygene and improtantly pasture feeding of the cattle but this wasn't going to happen so pasturization of milk came into practice.

Yes pasturization prevents the souring of milk but this isn't a straight forward issue. Sour milk is in no way dangerous for human consumption and was infact favored years ago. Even with the invention of refrigeration many people would deliberately let there milk stand at room temperature to sour naturaly. It's benificial bacteria within the milk that naturaly sour the milk and the benifit of this is that strong colonies of benificial bacteria present in the milk prevent harmful pathogens form growing rendering the milk totaly safe for consumption.

Raw milk if refrigerated will start to sour at about 1 week old and its quite sour by 2 weeks. You can speed up the proccess by leaving it at room temperature. Pasturized milk will not sour in the fridge over a longer period than 1 week because the benificial bacteria have been killed along with the supposed harmful bacteria so nominaly it stays fresher longer for long shelf life but when it goes it goes and putrifies instead of souring.

So in reality I can keep raw milk for weeks and weeks in my fridge and its PERFECTLY safe for consumption. Its just soured naturaly. Thats all.

Don't dring old pasturized milk. Its putrified and unsafe for human consumption.

Regards, Anthony

Anthony your take on these matters is remarkable. Disagreeable, but remarkable.

Anthony your take on these matters is remarkable. Disagreeable, but remarkable.

CastIron,

If I'm factualy wrong then let me know.

What I'm talking about is history and history is scientificaly important because its the control position. You need to know where you have come from to have any idea of where you should be going. Scientificaly you need to know what the problem is in order to develop the right solution and any reasonable look at pasturization of dairy shows that its not the right solution to any health problem. Food safety issues need to be addressed with hygene at the farm and in transport and storage. Pasturization is simply a proccess that suits large factories and covers a multitude of sins. The real benifit is that it nominaly extends shelf life which makes it possible for large operations to ship dairy all over the country rather than dairy being a product that was produced and consumed reasonably localy.

It suits commerce and it not a suitable solution for any health concerns. Also we have forsaken tradition so easily and we are in the spell of science even though most don't understand what science is about anyway.

Regards, Anthony

Anthony has a point. The milk comes from the cow sterile. If you keep it clean and cold, it'll be fine. The pathogens are only dangerous once they multiply. In the food industry, we say the danger zone is 40-140F. Four hours in this zone and we consider the food inedible. Food has to be chilled to below 40F within four hours or heated to above 140F within four hours.

Anthony has a point. The milk comes from the cow sterile. If you keep it clean and cold, it'll be fine. The pathogens are only dangerous once they multiply. In the food industry, we say the danger zone is 40-140F. Four hours in this zone and we consider the food inedible. Food has to be chilled to below 40F within four hours or heated to above 140F within four hours.

kuan,

I appreciate the support but I wouldn't say that raw milk is sterile as I would say its free of pathogens. Raw milk actualy contains benificial bacteria which the mother is theoreticaly passing on to its infant.

Also the special property of raw milk is that it can sit in the food temperature danger zone but rather than spoiling it just goes sour through the action of the native benificial bacteria. Mind you I'm not saying that it can stay in warm conditions forever and stay safe for consumption but it is remarkably tolerent.

Here's an excert from http://www.realmilk.com/
Pasteurization destroys enzymes, diminishes vitamin content, denatures fragile milk proteins, destroys vitamins C, B12 and B6, kills beneficial bacteria, promotes pathogens and is associated with allergies, increased tooth decay, colic in infants, growth problems in children, osteoporosis, arthritis, heart disease and cancer. Calves fed pasteurized milk do poorly and many die before maturity. Raw milk sours naturally but pasteurized milk turns putrid; processors must remove slime and pus from pasteurized milk by a process of centrifugal clarification. Inspection of dairy herds for disease is not required for pasteurized milk. Pasteurization was instituted in the 1920s to combat TB, infant diarrhea, undulant fever and other diseases caused by poor animal nutrition and dirty production methods. But times have changed and modern stainless steel tanks, milking machines, refrigerated trucks and inspection methods make pasteurization absolutely unnecessary for public protection. And pasteurization does not always kill the bacteria for Johne’s disease suspected of causing Crohn's disease in humans with which most confinement cows are infected. Much commercial milk is now ultra-pasteurized to get rid of heat-resistant bacteria and give it a longer shelf life. Ultra-pasteurization is a violent process that takes milk from a chilled temperature to above the boiling point in less than two seconds. Clean raw milk from certified healthy cows is available commercially in several states and may be bought directly from the farm in many more. (Sources are listed on www.realmilk.com.)


Regards, Anthony

Why did you start a thread asking if it was good for you?
You already have your opinion firmly planted, you aren't looking for differing opinions or advice.

Appears to me like a troll thread. You got your desired response. Gratz.

You're right, my mind is made up. If that makes me a troll then I admit I am one. I imagine I am one of hundreds that live under the bridge here.

That being said, I worked in dairies as a kid in high school. I know why milk is pasteurized. The 'biomass' of animals, the difficulty in keeping all things clean, the difficulty in identifiying ill animals, and so forth create the need to treat milk as we do.

On days that the cow or goat gets out into the weeds and eats them just before milking will cause my kids to turn their noses up at it no matter how careful I am with it. To get good tasting, safe raw milk it is important to pay attention to the details.

I am most interested in the claims made regarding the changes that are brought about to milk when it is pasteurized and homogenized. There seems to be some evidence regarding heart disease and its consumption. I've heard the same about fertile eggs compared to unfertile eggs. I am curious as to the modern scourges we have r/t diet that we see today.

(Sources are listed on www.realmilk.com.)


Site is a spin off of weston price site, your usually quoted so called scientificaly backed site. We saw last week how your wap site made false claims about skim milk being all reconstituted, then proceeded to use those false claims as justification to drink whole milk.

If your going to link wap sites in the futute, you really should skip all the 'science' claims in your post, and stick to all the 'its how god wants it' and mother nature posts. Then folks wont waste their time .

Site is a spin off of weston price site, your usually quoted so called scientificaly backed site. We saw last week how your wap site made false claims about skim milk being all reconstituted, then proceeded to use those false claims as justification to drink whole milk.

If your going to link wap sites in the futute, you really should skip all the 'science' claims in your post, and stick to all the 'its how god wants it' and mother nature posts. Then folks wont waste their time .

Actualy Jarery I didn't claim that my reference for claiming that all skim milk was recconstituted came from the WAPF. You just made that up.

I made a mistake. What I should have said was that much of the skim milk on the market CONTAINED a certain % of skim milk powder which is used to make it palatable. As to skim milk not being a product of recombination well thats sailing a bit close to the wind.

Regards, Anthony

From what I recall pasturization was developed by Louis Pasteur for the brewing industry. Exploding bottles wasn't desirable.

He had many contributions which included wine production as well.

The problem with you is that you make blanket statements that processing(whatever that means) is all bad all the time. Life isn't that simple.

One could say that ingesting cow milk is unnatural. There are tons of arguments against it. Frankly I am surprised you would drink milk at all.

Raw milk isn't bad and it isn't good. You must have impecable technique and instruments and you will likely be fine. But simply heating milk to 160 degrees is not bad either. Do you cook with milk? Do you cook food at all? If you think pasteurization is wrong, then all cooking is wrong. Have fun with your raw chicken.

the consumption of dairy has stood the test of time of being one of the most important foods for mankind. We would be seriously malnourished without it and probably wouldn't have spread as far as we have. Cheese making was an early form of food preservation and many people would have starved to death over winters without it.

Now after many eons of milk consumption all of a sudden in the last 60-70 years AFTER the intoduction of pasturization some people have become lactose intolerent. Does the mainstream blame pasturization for this?

Absolutely not! It must be that milk is just bad for human consumption despite thousands of years of human consumption and the new proccessing techniques that came just before the spread of lactose intolerence are blameless. Right:rolleyes:

Regards, Anthony

Now after many eons of milk consumption all of a sudden in the last 60-70 years AFTER the intoduction of pasturization some people have become lactose intolerent. Does the mainstream blame pasturization for this?


Do you just make this crap up?

Do some research on a site the isnt weston price. You'll see that lactose intolerance is not some 'new' disease that has suddenly occured after pasturization was introduced. In fact its the norm.

Do you just make this crap up?

Do some research on a site the isnt weston price. You'll see that lactose intolerance is not some 'new' disease that has suddenly occured after pasturization was introduced. In fact its the norm.

A reference please Jarery, Yes Dairy may be difficult for some to digest, just as wheat and gluten is difficult to digest and infact gluten intolerence is something that goes back a long time. Traditional preperation techniques with fermentation being the most important of them were/are important to assist digestion.

As ugly as this sounds natural selection may have played a role here. In wheat dominant societies such as the middle east children who are gluten intolerent die in their childhood years. Gluten intolerence is still reasonable common in European societies where other staples exist. In dairy dominant cultures lactose intolerence would be rare however I don't think that lactose intolerence has the same deadly consequenses as gluten intolerence does.

Regards, Anthony

Lactose intolerance is the norm across East Asia.

Lactose intolerance is the norm across East Asia.

Very true. Historically, it isn't common at all amongst mostly Northern European-descended populations that have that funny genetic trait that allows their bodies to produce large amounts of lactase after childhood. I think you pretty much figured out the ethnic backgrounds of most of the people participating in this particular thread by the assumption that lactose tolerance is some sort of "norm". :o

I am from a mostly Northern European background. My brother and I get it from our mom, who is completely Northern European. I'm not severely lactose intolerant, and my symptoms are nearly nonexistant when consuming unpasteurized dairy products. I suspect I still produce a little lactase and the beneficial flora in raw dairy products aid the lactose breakdown process somehow. I wonder if raw dairy products would make any difference to someone more intolerant. Somehow, I doubt it.

A reference please Jarery,

Its called history and facts.
Look it up

the consumption of dairy has stood the test of time of being one of the most important foods for mankind. We would be seriously malnourished without it and probably wouldn't have spread as far as we have. Cheese making was an early form of food preservation and many people would have starved to death over winters without it.

Now after many eons of milk consumption all of a sudden in the last 60-70 years AFTER the intoduction of pasturization some people have become lactose intolerent. Does the mainstream blame pasturization for this?

Absolutely not! It must be that milk is just bad for human consumption despite thousands of years of human consumption and the new proccessing techniques that came just before the spread of lactose intolerence are blameless. Right:rolleyes:

Regards, Anthony

I'm lactose intolerant. I was breastfed as a baby, then western man told us that milk was the best darn thing next to breast milk. Of course "westerners" knew what was best for Asians right? Or so my mother thought. I was forced to drink the recommended four cups a day. I remember having terrible stomach cramps until I was around 12 and decided that I wasn't gonna drink cow milk anymore. Have been on soy milk ever since. It's an Asian thing.

Pasteurized milk is to blame for childhood autism though, right? :rolleyes:

Nah, childhood autism comes from the mercury preservative in vaccines.

I accept that south eastern Asians maybe by and large lactose intolerent but then the northern asians such as the Mongolians are a culture that thrives on dairy don't they.

I have for a number of years removed dairy and wheat/gluten from my diet and was much healthier without them. I was however very ill with very poor bowel function and both dairy and wheat are hard to digest so only having easy to digest foods assisted greatly. As I've slowly healed I can digest dairy and wheat much better than I used to be able to so I am very slowly re introducing them. I still avoid over proccessed dairy and I don't drink regular store milk but I do have access to raw jersey milk which is much easier to digest as far as I'm concerned. I realy crave dairy fat and it feels right to me however I am still struggling to get my magnesium/calcium levels/balance sorted out so dairy is a rare indulgence for me at the moment. The point of the story I guess is that I can vouch for raw dairy being easier to digest than pasturized/proccessed dairy.

Regards, Anthony

You may want to also check out www.notmilk.com.

Andy
www.myvemma.com/unbent

You may want to also check out www.notmilk.com.

Andy
www.myvemma.com/unbent

Dont tell that to the swedes and french, both of which have longer life spans and have no obesity epidemic. They accomplish this on whole milk cheeses (much of which is raw) and considerably quantities of dairy. This is not to mention the african tribes that get much of the caloric intake from raw millk. We will save that for another day, after you have done your research and can talk about the history/research that has been done on the topic.

But whats in a real world example as stated above? Just as long as the billboards/government is saying "DRINK MILK" (funded by the pasturized diary industry) thats good enough right...

By the way, I had some raw milk that had been left in a cool cupboard for 4 months, tasted like really strong/sour yoghurt.

Now after many eons of milk consumption all of a sudden in the last 60-70 years AFTER the intoduction of pasturization some people have become lactose intolerent. Does the mainstream blame pasturization for this?


Just because a disease was not understood or characterized doesn't mean it didn't exist. They have actually found that adults gradually develop lactose intolerence by their lack of dairy consumption. All you need to do to avoid the gastric distress is to eat yogurt with Lactobacillus acidophilus daily.

.... Lactobacillus acidophilus daily.

Occurs naturally in raw milk....funny how man trys to imitate nature by adding lacto acidophilus to pasturized milk.
I agree with you though, lot of benefits from active cultures. If your going to eat pasturized dairy, high quality yoghurt is the best way. The greek yoghurt is great stuff, good substitute for sourcream as well-

Occurs naturally in raw milk....funny how man trys to imitate nature by adding lacto acidophilus to pasturized milk.
I agree with you though, lot of benefits from active cultures. If your going to eat pasturized dairy, high quality yoghurt is the best way. The greek yoghurt is great stuff, good substitute for sourcream as well-



Do you know what else can occur naturally in raw milk?

Salmonella
Rabies
E. coli
Listeria
Various Streptococcus and Staphylococcus bac-t
numerous other pathogens

Do you know what else can occur naturally in raw milk?

Salmonella
Rabies
E. coli
Listeria
Various Streptococcus and Staphylococcus bac-t
numerous other pathogens

Well I agree with you that E. coli occurs naturaly in raw milk. Its a probiotic that gives cheeses there flavor and benificial E. Coli protect us from harmful E. coli.

So, what we need are the facts and not the scare tactics. Do you have a reference?

Oh and bacteria ARE NOT pathogens. Its not that simple.

Regards, Anthony

Do you know what else can occur naturally in raw milk?

Salmonella
Rabies
E. coli
Listeria
Various Streptococcus and Staphylococcus bac-t
numerous other pathogens

Thats a bit misleading. Raw milk has natural occuring enzymes that deal with alot of what you mentioned above, naturally. I leave my milk sit on the countertop for 3 days before drinking it, which was common practice in days gone by. Havent been sick in 10 years...go figure.
Of course in rare circumstances, the way I unsderstand it, if the 'bad' bacteria overwhelms the good stuff, then a person could get sick. We are talking SEVERLY contaminated. Just like regular milk can make you sick, if its not properly cared for.

What is your take on steak joints that serve rare steaks or sushi places with all the sashimi?
Are they out to get us! They have the possibility of all the same contamination as you stated above-

Isn't it a miracle that mankind managed to survive and flourish prior to all of the 'modern conviences'?

Isn't it a miracle that mankind managed to survive and flourish prior to all of the 'modern conviences'?
Yeah, but life expectancy was much shorter and death rate much higher.

Yeah, but life expectancy was much shorter and death rate much higher.


Most of the people that are 'old' (what your basing your point on) grew up with the raw milks, butters and high cholesterol foods in the early 1900's. Maybe in 50-70 years you will have an argument, because that will show what type of impact all the synthetic foods have of today. From the looks of it though (the obesity epidemic) our life spans will be going back down.
Modern medicine that was started in the early 1900's by William Welch has alot to do with lifespans. Prior to him the human body and viruses were not clearly understood. Prior to these medical breakthroughs, doctors were sometimes more dangerous than the disease itself. Morphine overdose was quite common.
So again, all the 80/90 year olds have Mr. Welch to thank for part of their lifespan, the other part has to do with the whole foods they grew up eating...all whole foods with no synthetic agents.

I am not an advocate of current medical practices, I dont get flu shots, I dont take medicine and I dont get sick. I believe alot of medicine has harmed us more than it has helped. Naturopaths are the way to go, something the chinese have known for a long time-