Road Cycling - Ultegra vs. 105?

One of my LBS told me that the Ultegra shifters have more problems than the 105's. I thought the Ultegra was a higher end product and would perform better. Has anyone heard the same or have you heard otherwise?

TIA

All I can say to this is, I bought a new bike with 105 and if anything else shifts better it would have to be automatic!

i love my 105. it shifts beautifully. however i have heard that ultegra is one step up. i have not experienced any shifting problems with my 105.

I dunno. I've had one 105 equipped bike, had it for a year and several thousand miles. I now have four Ultegra equipped bikes, had them for a couple of years and many thousands of miles. No problems on any of them at all.

In my opinion, the reliability "issues" that are talked about are non-issues. How may hundreds of thousands of bikes with Ultegra are there? I don't see any parked beside the road having left their riders stranded. I don't see piles of dead Ultegra stuff littering the floors at the LBS.

All of this type of talk I ascribe to the "A told me that he had a friend who heard that.... (insert your favorite rumor here)"

As Pokey is so fond of saying, "Stinky applesauce".

my ultegra set has 14,000 miles on it with no problems. i chane the chain after 4000 miles and clean and lube often...
105's are just as reliable...

That's pooey. Everybody knows Ultegra gives you good peformance and great reliability. That dude probably had one little quirk or something, or he was just trying to unload a 105 equipped bike.

My bike right now has 105, but I rode a few Ultegra bikes to compare them to mine, and the Ultegra feels alittle bit quicker, and crisper. Plus, Ultegra shaves those grams off, Bonus!!!

Earlier Ultegra @ 1999 had plastic covers that were a piece of s**t. They often came off while riding or rattled and drove you crazy. Most folks and shops fixed the problem with silly puddy or poster tack. The problem was fixed on later versions of Ultegra but some people remember the crappy ones. Most people I know have a difficult time telling the difference between Ultegra and 105 when shifting. Ultegra is a little lighter.

Blake

I have three newish Shimano drivetrains: 2000 Tiagra with Sora shifters; 2001 triple Ultegra with XTR RD; 2002 105 triple. The first two have many thousands of miles on them; the 105 only a few hundred.

IMO, differences in the bikes can mask the fairly subtle differences between drivetrains. My 105 drivetrain shifts quicker and smoother than the Ultegra/XTR. But not only is the 105 several thousand miles newer, but it's on a racing frame. The whole bike is more rigid, the chainstays are shorter, the cassette spacing is finer, and the chain itself is shorter, and therefore lighter.

I've had no reliability issues with any of this stuff, nor would I expect to. You do hear things about Ultegra levers from a couple of years ago, but how much of this is statistically significant and how much of it is a legend in the making is difficult to tell.

I do believe that 105 is the "sweet spot" in terms of price/performance ratio in Shimano's road line. It yields most of the benefits of their design and manufacturing skills while keeping cost reasonable.

Also keep in mind that with bike parts, "higher end" doesn't always mean "more reliable," although I don't think this applies to 105/Ultegra. Sometimes "higher end" means "as light as possible." Pro racers aren't usually as interested in long-term durability as they are in short-term reliability and reduced weight.

RichC

My wife has a Cannondale R600 with 105's. When I upgraded my bike I put my Ultegra FD and RD, cassette, brakes, Race Lite wheelset, and a SRAM chain on her R600. It was a noticeable difference in overall drivetrain smoothness. The 105 shifters work fine. My Ultegra shifters have 3000 miles on them and no issues.

As a side note: Coda brakes are "lacking" compared to Ultegra.

My previous bike had a 105 drivetrain & brakes and my current bike has Ultegra. Both the of the groups were of recent vintage (9 speed, 3x chainrings, and 'rattle free' shifters). Functionally, there is only a slight difference between 105 and Ultegra; most of which is in weight and finish. I do believe that the rear pulleys have sealed bearings in Ultegra, though.

I personally could not really tell a big difference in the performace between the two drivetrains. In fact, the Ultegra had worse shifting than 105 at first... then I discovered that my current bike had a cheaper chain (the 105 level chain), so I replaced it with the SRAM PC-69 that I had with my 105 setup and it worked just fine.

As for weight, I don't think you'll notice a big difference either unless you are some elite athlete. You'll probably feel more weight difference in the frame and wheels before anything else. Use the money you save with 105 and get some nice wheels.

-- rchan

The way I see it, it comes down to durability. I have the priveledge (sp?) or running Dura Ace (benefit of working in a shop in college), and nothing major has needed replacement on the bike since 1998 when I got it. I will probably be putting an Ultegra bottom bracket in soon (tired of overhauling DA after rainy rides), but nothing has ever given me trouble. I ran 8 speed Ultegra back in the day, and it was great, too. I might suggest, if you're putting the parts on yourself and are not locked into what a bike company gives you stock, putting a mix of 105 and Ultegra on. Run Ultegra shifters and derailleurs, for example, and 105 elsewhere. Mixing and matching, if done right, can give you all the reliability without breaking the bank.

Of course, now that 105 is black, vanity might get in the way of that idea.

There are only 2 things that make Ultegra and DA better. Weight and durability. If you are putting on heavy miles racing, 105 just isn't going to cut it for long. I think it is, as someone said, the sweet spot in terms of $ per pound.

I managed a shop for a whiloe, and a year or so back we had a racs of problems with Ultegra STI shifters.

overall, as has been pointed out, Higher end Shimano roughly correlates to weight and durability. The throw on DA shifters is slightly different than that of T/105/6500. And of course the Sora shifters are completely different.

I think most people would not be able to tell the difference between a 105 front mech and a Dura-ace.

A

So lighter stuff lasts longer,ah no it doesnt.105 will outlast the DA and ULT.It deoesnt make it better but it will hold up,Like we have heard a million times,best bang for the buck,105's.

My current 105 bike has over 30,000 miles on it. So 105 is durable. The thing is that very few riders put in over 2,000 miles per year and 30,000 miles works out to 15 years. Most cyclists who ride that quality of bike will buy a new ride long before wear gets to be a factor.

Now if you want real durability, I recall some friends had old Campy Nova and got well over 50,000 miles with no discernable problems.

But if you look from the manufacturers point of view, how many bikes ever get even 10,000 miles of wear? Not a very large proportion. I do not think that bikes are made with wear as a major consideration. I am rather amazed that they hold up as well as they do.

I dont know,i ride 3-4000 a year and of all the people i know that ride,i ride the least per year.You know you cant go wrong with either one.If you can afford better,buy it.

Well, if you don't believe us, then take a look at what the folks at Road Bike Review have to say:

Shimano 105 Groupo Reviews
http://www.roadbikereview.com/Groupos/Shimano,105/PRD_27978_2497crx.aspx

The majority of them are very favorable. And believe me, consumer reviewers are incredibly hard on their reviews, especially if something fails :)

As for durability, it is not always the case that the higher end components are more durable, because they may be striving for lightness above all else. Component engineering is a compromise between being Lighter, Stronger, or Cheaper. You can only have 2 of the 3, but you can't have them all.

The Dura Ace adjustable cup bottom bracket is a possible case in point where high-end is not durable. It's light and strong enough, but it's fussy to install and adjust, so unless you get it juuuuust right, it won't last.

I'm not sure what durability is like for the Campagnolo components that mix carbon and aluminum, but it's sure high-end and light.

So your saying what?

Originally posted by shokhead
So your saying what?

I'm trying say that an expensive 'high end' part doesn't always mean more durable. A lot of people have been saying that the higher up the line you go, the more durable the component.

There's always tradeoffs in design, and that some of the extra bucks somebody pays for a high end component might be because the engineers were emphasizing lightness and not durability.

I pointed out the Dura Ace bottom bracket as an example of a light high-end component that does not have a great track record for being durable.

I also posted a link to reviews by people who used the 105 group in real life conditions, not just for a few weeks for a review, to show that it is perfectly fine group.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. The 'you' I was referring to was the original starter of this thread asking about 105 vs. Ultegra and not directed to the last poster.

I'm with you now.Lighter could mean lasting not as long.I think 105's are the best of both worlds.

Just wanted to thank everyone for their input... it was very informative.

I have the Ultegra and I´m really satisfied with it. Absolutely no problems (even after changing the chain). The 105 seems to be preety good too, but it´s like fubar said, the Ultegra is lighter.
In fact it´s a question of money, but I would prefer the Ultegra.
Or going for the Dura Ace or the big Campagnolo... :)

How much lighter?

As far as I know it´s about 150 gramms. Try to get the info from the shimano web site.

Rear der.
Tiagra 265 105: 228 Ult. 215 DA 195
Ft Der
Tiagra 110 105: 98 Ult. 94 DA 98
Crankset
Tiagra 776 105: 663 Ult. 643 DA 600
Brakes (f&r)
Tiagra 355 105: 352 Ult. 335 DA 307
Shifters
Tiagra 490 105: 471 Ult. 446 DA 432

Just for grins I looked up some of the off brand parts I have on my road bike.

FSA Carbon cranks 535g
Brew road brakes, f&r 202 g

So is it save a few hundred grams or have better dependability.I think thats mostly riding vs racing unless you got the bucks.

I don't know how much i buy into the argument that the higher end stuf fis less dependable.

I've been in the bike industry and around bikes for quite a while, and in my experience, the higher end shimano stuff outlasts the lower end stuff.

In general, road componentry lasts forever, especially compared to MTB stuff, so the scale may be such that the average user cannot see the horizon, even with 105 or lower componentry. But a lot of folks that could care less about racing put gobs of miles on their bikes, and could benefit from longevity and lighter weight.

YMMV,

A

Originally posted by Veloci*Rapture


I pointed out the Dura Ace bottom bracket as an example of a light high-end component that does not have a great track record for being durable.
Not if it's installed right.

Originally posted by Singlespeedster
I don't know how much i buy into the argument that the higher end stuf fis less dependable.

A

*sigh* You know, I never said that all high end components are less durable, but somehow people are overgeneralizing. I was just pointing out that you have to look at the engineer's goals in the design. In fact, it could mean that a higher end component is equally durable while being lighter and more expensive.

There are clear limits one what you can do with certain materials and designs and budgets. All I am saying that you shouldn't take it on faith that big bucks means greater durability, because the big bucks might have been invested in other areas besides durability. I think we can all agree that durability is only one of many characterstics that is the mind of an engineer when designing a component. In other words, do you research.

I know I am taking the mushy middle ground here, but things are rarely so black-and-white as to make blanket statements about price and durability.

How does the lighter, more expensive and more durable Dura Ace group figure into your equation? Parts are lighter, of higher quality and the finish will last much longer. The operation of which will also work better, longer.
I can see maybe where Record has no real longevity benefit over Chorus since they are functionally nearly identical so in that case you can say Record is more expensive and lighter but not more durable. But at that point, how much longer than forever do you need it to last?

So, just to get this straight...
105 is heavier than Ultegra
105 is less expensive than Ultegra
105 may or may not work as well as Ultegra, opinions vary slightly, leaning towards 105 working almost as well as Ultegra
Make up your own mind where you want to spend your money.

This is MY opinion...
For the sake of this discussion, I will ignore the other brand of components.
If you are riding mostly for fun, fitness, club rides etc. 105 is probably all or more than you'd really ever need for a long lasting groupset with excellent performance. It's probably good enough for racing.
For more frequent racing adventures, get the Ultegra. It may work slightly better and weigh less. Provided you aren't on a tight budget. If you are, then 105 is still probably adequate.
If you are racing frequently, and you demand the best shifting, lightest components, then get the DA stuff. Provided you aren't on a tight budget. If you are, Ultegra or 105 are still probably adequate.
If you are the "techie" type, then buy the highest level group you can afford.

Originally posted by Patricia
How does the lighter, more expensive and more durable Dura Ace group figure into your equation? Parts are lighter, of higher quality and the finish will last much longer. The operation of which will also work better, longer.

I will stipulate that Dura Ace is lighter and more expensive. As for durability, I don't know of any real studies done that actually compared the Mean Time Between Failiure rate of various components over time, BUT let us assume that Dura Ace is signficantly more durable. Well... what you pointed out fits into the equation just fine. Dura Ace is Lighter, Stronger, but NOT cheaper (you improved 2 things, not all 3). Now if Dura Ace was Stronger, Lighter, AND Cheaper... that would contradict what I've been saying, or it might mean there has been a revolution in materials or production which can happen from time to time.

Or, you can hold Stronger (durability) constant and just improve lightness, but it would still be more expensive. Another possibility is to downgrade durability to get even lighter (which might take the edge off the expense, but it will still go up a bit). Again, what I am trying to say is that there are a lot of variables that can be played with, so price alone does not mean durability.

I like to think of it as "You don't get something for nothing."

Also, I did point out that durability is only one characteristic. I fully admit that I oversimplified by mentioning only Stronger-Lighter-Cheaper. There are many other things to consider.

As Pokey pointed out, the Dura Ace bottom bracket is light and strong, but there was a trade-off (other than in price) in complexity. It's not as easy to install the Dura Ace bottom bracket as Ultegra, and if you get it wrong, it won't last.

Considering the fact you edited nearly every single one of your posts in this thread, who knows what you originally said.

Go for the Ultegra's, you will not be sorry. I have over 16K on mine and I will say if anything they are shifting better now than when they were new.

Rick

I think durability is a dead fish.

Originally posted by RacerX
Considering the fact you edited nearly every single one of your posts in this thread, who knows what you originally said.

I've been very polite and been trying to get my point across. I admit that after hitting post button, even after proofing, sometimes I immediately realize upone reading it again I made a mistake or realize my point wasn't made clear.

I didn't realize that there was some unwritten rule that ones crediblity is lessened if you edit posts.

I had expected disagreement, but I did not expect my honesty and character to be questioned. I even expected to be dead wrong, as it has been known to happen.

In the future, I will just post follow-up correction posts instead of editing.

Sorry for my indiscretion.

Originally posted by Veloci*Rapture
*sigh* You know, I never said that all high end components are less durable, but somehow people are overgeneralizing.

Just an FYI.

I was responding to the post directly above mine. I was not responding to you at all.

A