Road Cycling - Is my saddle too low?

A few months ago someone referenced the Wrench Science website's bike fitting calculator. I went through the process and came up with, among the other measurements obviously, a recommended center bb-saddle distance that was right on .883 (or is it .833?) of inseam which I had read numerous times before and which had been recommended by a young racer friend as well. So I lowered my saddle the 5-7 cm from the position I had been riding. This took a little getting used to but seemed to be working ok. On a couple of rides recently my left hamstring has felt like it wanted to cramp up. Maybe it's psychological, but it just seems like my legs never get very extended and especially at the top of the pedal stroke my legs feel really shortened. I have been riding this saddle height for about 3-4 months now so you would think I should be used to it. Should I give in and start raising my saddles a bit at a time?

FWIW, I do some stretching every day, and I am more of a spinner than a masher.

I would appreciate any thoughts on this.
Thanks,
Raymond

I say the hell with all the calcuations....go with what feels best, yes experement with the height..........happy miles!

The .833 method fails to consider how long your feet are. If you have long feet try raising the saddle just a little and/or move your feet forward on the pedals (provided your cleats will allow that).

I say the heck with calculations....:p Raise that seat up in increments until your hammies don't cramp.

The best method to use for saddle height, wiithout even having to pull out the calculator, is that you should be able to pedal on your *heels*. Unclip and rest your heels on top of the pedals, then lower your leg to the bottom of the pedal stroke. Your legs should be straight, and you should just be able to spin both of the pedals. Once you clip in as regular, your legs will have just enough room.

After this, you can try making small adjustments to perfect it. Generally, if it still feels wrong after a couple days, it probably is wrong. Watch to make sure your hips aren't rotating.

While we're on the subject, here's how to get the saddle setback adjusted properly. The main idea is to keep your knee's "bend point" directly over the pedal axle when the crank is horizontal. This will help you produce more power, and avoid injury. Here's the method:

a) Warm up for a few minutes to loosen the joints.

b) Support yourself against a wall or trainer.

c) Take a piece of string and tie a bolt or washer to the end, making a plumb line which will hang vertically thanks to gravity.

d) Put your right crank horizontal with the ground, and have a friend hang the plumb line from the front of your kneecap.

e) Adjust your saddle forward/backward until the string goes straight down from your kneecap to the *end* of the crankarm.

Don't rush through this, after you're done pedal for a few more minutes and try it again... you'll only have to do this once if you do it properly. Also, do this with the left AND right legs- seperately. Many people have a difference in the length of their upper legs. If you can't set the saddle so that the plumb line connects your kneecap to crankarm on BOTH sides, then split the difference.

Another quick note on saddle position. Although it might be argued, the saddle should be level with the ground- not tilted up or down. Unless you are time trialing or have swayback, use a level (with the bubble that moves side to side) to get your saddle level.

Mike

Originally posted by RainmanP
A few months ago someone referenced the Wrench Science website's bike fitting calculator. I went through the process and came up with, among the other measurements obviously, a recommended center bb-saddle distance that was right on .883 (or is it .833?) of inseam which I had read numerous times before and which had been recommended by a young racer friend as well. So I lowered my saddle the 5-7 cm from the position I had been riding. This took a little getting used to but seemed to be working ok. On a couple of rides recently my left hamstring has felt like it wanted to cramp up. Maybe it's psychological, but it just seems like my legs never get very extended and especially at the top of the pedal stroke my legs feel really shortened. I have been riding this saddle height for about 3-4 months now so you would think I should be used to it. Should I give in and start raising my saddles a bit at a time?

FWIW, I do some stretching every day, and I am more of a spinner than a masher.

I would appreciate any thoughts on this.
Thanks,
Raymond

Ray, I'd move the seat to what's consistently comfortable for you. WS's calculations don't taken into count one's personal riding style. I used WS's measurements also when building up my bike and after riding for awhile, adjusting my seat differently then advised.:beer:

Originally posted by fubar5
I say the heck with calculations....:p Raise that seat up in increments until your hammies don't cramp.

Yup... What fubar5 said!!!

0.883
Does this take into accound crank length, sole/cleat/pedal thickness, spongyness of saddle ??? This figure smells of bulls**t , or reverse engineering.

I use the methos where my heel on the pedal gives a straight leg, then adjust the height a few mm to get it right by experience.

NB With a sloping seat-tube, height and layback are linked, so you may need to loop through the process of saddle setting a few times.

Thanks for the replies. Raising the saddle seemed like the obvious move, but I wanted to get some input as to whether it was the first thing to try. I do have big hoofies (sz 12) so maybe it does need to come up.

Here is an spinoff question. I formerly used the heel on pedal measure meltable describes. That put me at about 90.5 cm from pedal at 6 o'clock to saddle top. That was comfortable with no hip rocking. .883 times inseam, bb to saddle top, puts me right at 72 cm, which in turn puts me at 88 cm pedal to saddle, which is very close to the recommended 1.09 x inseam I have seen recommended. So 90.5 was my preferred and 88 calculated, not far off. HOWEVER, both of these are much greater than my inseam of 81 cm. I have never quite understood how a comfortable saddle height by the heel on pedal method or even the slightly lower, in my case, .883 center bb to saddle can be considerably greater than my inseam. It is totally irrelevant but a puzzlement nonetheless.

Maybe you are just deformed

You're thinking about it to much dude. It is what it is. If it's comfy, it's comfy, if it sucks, it sucks.

Raymond I did the same with both of my bikes. The calculations came up the same as yours -- my saddle was about 6cm too high on both bikes.
I decided not to change the saddle adjustments because then my leg would not be extended at the bottom of the pedal stroke (heel on the pedal).

Maybe the folks at wrenchscience.com need to double check some of their formulas. :confused:

So, if I read your post right you had to lower your saddle 5 to 7 cm to meet the 'formula'? Assuming your riding before the lowering of the saddle felt comfortable, then the obvious conclusion is the formula does not fit your body and that bicycle geometry. 5 to 7 cm is a huge amount to lower a saddle if it was already comfortable. Raise it till you don't hurt. I'd suggest going up 2 cm to start.

Originally posted by RainmanP
a recommended center bb-saddle distance that was right on .883 (or is it .833?) of inseam

That's practically 90% of your leg length, and I doubt you were previously pedaling tippy-toe. How did you interpret "inseam?" Because bike setup descriptions use that term all the time, when they're not referring to clothing at all.

In Greg LeMond's book, he also references the .883 x inseam measurement, but suggests determining your "inseam" by standing in stocking feet on a hard (i.e. non-carpet) floor, pulling an 1.5 inch book edgwise up snugly into your crotch, with one edge held against the wall. The floor to book-top measurement is the inseam he's referring to. I believe it generally works out to a saddle adjustment somewhat higher than the old leg-straight-with-ankle-on-pedal rule of thumb.

Put your saddle back to the original height and lower it 1 cm at a time. Big changes are not good for the body. Those formulas get you "in the ballpark". They are not meant to be exact for everyone. Everyone is different and flexibility, pedalling style are variable for everyone.

The ball of your foot should be right over the pedal axle. Your leg extension at about 7 o'clock is maximum extension. At that point, your leg should still have a comfortable, slight bend at the knee.

Remember, just because you cannot feel your hips rocking doesn't mean they aren't! You need someone to look at you pedal to see if your hips stay level.

I'm glad RacerX finally mentioned to do all adjustments in small increments. Part of your body's problem could be that 5 or 6 cm is actually a huge change in your position on the bike. Raise it back to within a cm or so of it's original height and go from there.

Everyone else is pretty much spot on as far as using fit calculators. I lowered my saddle a little after using one, but no where near what it suggested. I'll give myself a little time to get used to it and go from there. Bike fit is a pain sometimes, literally. It takes a long time and a willingness to be very patient. Good luck!

Ray, are you sure it's cm's and not mm's? (2.5 cm to the inch)

You know 5cm is an outrageous distance to adjust a seatpost...I'm still trying to get mine right and I move it at increments of 1cm or less

Raymond-When I did the WS fit-I lowered from 72 cm. to 69 cm., not to the 67 cm. recommended at first. That was enough of a radical change to begin with. I am now at the 67 cm. height and it feels strange, especially to the quads. I am giving it some time for evaluation before deciding. You have already given it some months, and maybe you should increment upwards to get rid of the tightness. Size 12 feet should mean a big difference in both saddle adjustments. As far as height, especially if you pedal toe down. That feeling that the stroke is too short with a low saddle is normal after such an adjustment, to me it feels like the upstroke is coming prematurely.

I had to fight against the tendency to "go with what feels right" to give the new position a chance. To me it was like having a high jump pit in the back yard that I used for many years, and then someone with some technical knowledge came around and said that, " you're problem is that you don't know how to high jump, and this is how it should be done." Instinctively we don't want to accept change, but then sometimes it opens new doors. There has to be some room though for style and personal preference and the fact that every body seems to be unique.

This thread has a lot of good information and points of view.

Based on the fairly standard calculations, I had my saddle at 73 cm for quite a while. It was really a problem for me. I would get a lot of cramping in my right hip. I started raising the saddle about 5 mm a week. When I got to 74.5 cm, the body said "that's the spot." No hip cramping, knees feel great, hips solidly rooted. It's really worth the process of working on it for a long time, adjusting it on the road.

Rich

The 'inseam' mentioned appears to be the 'pubic bone height', jamming a book up until it hits the bone. Rivendell site states the saddle height is gennerally 10 cm less than the pubic bone height.

My PBH is 82 cm and the saddle height of 72 to 73 cm works fine.

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

Originally posted by Stinger9oh
This thread has a lot of good information and points of view.

Based on the fairly standard calculations, I had my saddle at 73 cm for quite a while. It was really a problem for me. I would get a lot of cramping in my right hip. I started raising the saddle about 5 mm a week. When I got to 74.5 cm, the body said "that's the spot." No hip cramping, knees feel great, hips solidly rooted. It's really worth the process of working on it for a long time, adjusting it on the road.

Rich

Exactly :D
After a ton of tiny adjustments, it's a great feeling knowing that you've just perfectly dialed it all in and the bike feels great.

Too bad I'm not there yet

.883? both Hinault and LeMond recommend ( as I recall) a measurement closer to .886 or possibly .86. However that/those figure(s) is/are based on using a road shoe with Campy pedals and adjustment is recommended for pedal style and shoe sole thickness. If you use Look pedals, for instance, add 1cm to your saddle height. "Eddy B" and others recommend lowering saddle height slightly in winter and the beginning of the season to allow for extra clothing layers and reduced flexibility. ( His formula uses leg length measured from the hip joint and is difficult to get right.)

No formula I've found is 100% accurate in all cases.

Rules of tumb I"ve found that work for me-

Start with a recognised expert's formula, ( Lemond etc.), and adjust to YOUR comfort.

Raise the saddle as high as is comfortable, WITHOUT rocking your hips. Generally the higher your saddle the more power from your quads. Have a friend ride behind you to check

You should be able to pull across the bottom for more than an instant. In other words; don't raise your saddle so high as to rob the power from your backstroke

With you leg fully extended at the bottom of the stroke with the ball of your foot over the pedal axle, your heel should drop a bit. With your heel on the pedal, it should "just touch".

If your knees hurt on the front or top, raise your saddle if they hurt at the back lower it.

If you "bounce" in the saddle at high pedal rpm, lower it and/or check for leg length discrepency.

If you legs have different length, shim under your cleat or buildup the sole or insole 1/2 the diference. ( My right leg is 2 cm shorter that my left and I use a 1 cm shim under my cleat).

Ride by a Window and look at the reflection, compare your leg angles with the best Pros. Pruitt and others recommend 30 degrees bottom of stroke and 120 degrees bottom of stroke ( I'm working form memory on those angles here, correct me if I'm wrong). The Former Eastern block riders and coaches tend to use a bit lower saddle height than those from the west.

If you use different shoes on the same bike adjust for difference in sole thickness.

Ride Well Adjusted
Pat

Yeah, we're all beating around the real question... how do you know when your seat height is "dialed?"

With me, I just know it when I feel it. It sounds obvious, and pretty dumb, but it's hard to get just right. Mostly, my leg and the crank seem to be in "harmony." It's most obvious at the maximum leg extension. The crank/pedal neither contricts or stretches my natural leg extension... at the moment I start to retract my leg, the crank comes along, almost encouraging the back stroke.

And saddle height is only part of the equation. In addition to overall frame fit, fore/aft saddle position and cleat position are primary components of getting the saddle-pedal interface worked out. Plus, when you change one, you impact at least one of the other two adjustments.

roadbuzz- how true!!!

It's amazing how a very small adjustment up, down, fore or aft, 1 or 2 mm will make such a big difference.

( I've been playing with my "fit" for 30 years.)

Ride Balanced
Pat

If you pay attention, you can check for yourself. Go to "comfy setup" for a while. Return to "wrenchforce" setup and see if you "feel" the hamstring thing comingback. Then you KNOW......

My own 2cents >>> fore/aft seat position and seat tube angle have "everything" to do with "hamstring" action, see "tri-guy" setups, they know......

2 Points:

1. Make sure that you are using the formula for the right measurement on the bike. The .883 is for top of seat (about in the middle) to the center of Cranks/BB to top of seat. The 1.09 from Zinn's book is from seat to the pedal axel of a crank in about a 7 o'clock (i.e. lined up with the seat tube).

2. Make adjustments in 2-5 mm increments. And ride with a new setting at least twice. I notice a saddle difference of 1-2 mm, something that has always astonished me.

I have been moving my saddle around in a 1 cm x 1 cm square for a year now--sometimes a little higher, sometimes lower, sometimes a bit forward, sometimes a bit back. I think I've got it just about right now.

Best,
Jamie