Fifty Plus (50+) - A tale of two LBS (long)

I've been away from the forum for a few days while I've tried to straighten out the issues from my catastrophic failure that resulted in my Ultergra rear derailleur being snapped in half and the chain stay (drive side) of my carbon fiber frame being broken (Yes, at first I though it was just scuffed up, but it split right in half with a fracture you can't see until you put pressure on the chain stay. Then you can actually move the pieces apart.)

In any event, I took it to the dealer and described what happened. That is, I was riding along at 18 to 20 mph on a level surface when I heard a loud snap and the rear end just broke free. Some folks here suggested it may have been a pin in the chain sticking out too far and catching in the derailleur. However, I checked the chain and that was not the case. Sorry... back to the dealer. I actually spoke with one of the technicians at the shop and he said they would look it over and get back to me. Three days later I get a call with the LBS owner saying he can get me a new frame under the company's crash replacement program for just $1,200. He's quick to point out that this is a $300 discount from the normal price. I tell him, "But I didn't crash." He says that it doesn't matter, it's being treated as if I did. Naturally I want to question this and ask why it's not covered under the frame replacement warranty. He says because it was not a problem with the workmanship or materials. I ask how that could be. Now, he starts saying things that enter into a place he doesn't really want to go. He's making me mad. Here's a transcription of what took place next.

Me: "Wait, how could it not be a problem? I did nothing wrong."
Owner: "Well, you may have hit a pothole or run over a stick that was kicked into the drive train."
Me: "No, neither of those things happened."
Owner: "Well since there was no camera or GPS on your bike, we can't really tell where you were or what you were doing, but it's not a warranty issue."
Me: After a few deep breaths, "Look, I know what I was doing and it was nothing that should have caused this failure. For the sake of argument, let's assume that I did hit a stick that went into the drive chain, stretched things far enough to break the derailleur and break the derailleur hanger. Should the rear chain stay have snapped?"
Owner: "Well if the chain was frailing around hitting it enough it could."
Me: "Wouldn't that be somewhat of a design flaw. I mean I could have been seriously hurt."
Owner: "Well maybe you should open your own bike company and design your own bikes."

OK, so now I'm gald that we're having this conversation over the phone, because I don't want to go to jail for assaulting someone. The conversation continues:

Me: "You're not even going to submit this to the company's rep for an evaluation are you?"
Owner: "I've dealt with them long enough that I know what they will do or not do."
Me: "I'm just asking that you submit it and advocate on my behalf that they consider it."
Owner: "Look the crash replacement is $1,200 do you want to do it or not?"
Me: "I'll get back to you in a few days."

I WAS HOT.... NOT FIT TO BE AROUND FOR ABOUT FOUR HOURS! I MEAN REALLY VERY, VERY CRANKY.

I cool off after a day, but have a sick feeling in my stomach that I'm being screwed. Suddenly, I think maybe I should try the dealer where I bought the bike. They are no longer a dealer for this company so can't submit claims. But I figure they might coach me through what I need to do next. I can't get there for two days, becasue I'm out of town on a business trip. But when I get home, I go see that dealer. I tell them I'm looking for their guidance and help. I unload the whole story. Here's the transcript of that conversation.

Me: "So, can you give me some guidance here?"
Manager: "I can't believe they talked to you that way."
Me: "Well, they did, and I've got to tell you, I'm pretty upset by the whole thing."
Manager: "Upset? I'd be furious!" Technican chimes in: "Wow, what's the matter with those dudes?"
Me: "So, what do I do now?"
Manager: "I know the guy who was regional rep for ____ company last year. He's moved up in the company. I'll give him a call and let him know you bought the bike from us when we carried the line and are getting a run around. We'll see what he has to say."
Me: "Man, if you would do that I'd be very grateful."
Manager: "No, problem. I've give you a call in the next few days and let you know what I found out."
Technican in the backround again: "What a bunch of flamming a$$holes."
Me: "Thank you very much. I hope the news if good."
Manager: "I'll let you know."

Now I'm driving home from the shop (only about 15 miles). I'm not half way home yet and my cell phone rings. It's the manager from the shop I just left. He says, "Just talked to ______ he says to take your bike to _______ (a different shop than the first one I went to). He'll call them and let them know that you're coming and that he sent you."

Now I ask you, which dealer would you go back to?

I'm taking the frame over to the other shop tomorrow, but regardless of the outcome, there's one dealer in my area that has a loyal customer in me, and another that... well, this is a public forum. So, I'll hold my tounge until the whole thing is resolved one way or another. One of the things I found out is that many of the bigger companies read BF just to keep up with what's moving around in the grapevine.

Well, I warned you it was long, but appreciate having the opporutnity to get this off my chest somewhere. Thanks for listening to (reading) my rant.

It is rare these days for customer service to actually provide service. In a smaller example a while back I was shopping for new helmet I did research on the internet and I knew exactly what I wanted. I went to my closest LBS and looked at the helmet. It was substantially more than online. I wanted to give my money to the local LBS and told him I did not expect him to meet the online price but if he could do the price+shipping I would prefer to give him the business. He said nope so I bought it on-line. Now he was probably thinking of this one sale, but in the end since I felt he just blew me off so I won't go back there for any parts or service. I think small businesses have to realize that compared to on-line volume all they really have to offer is service. If they don't offer that then people might as well go for the cheapest price.

Let us know the outcome. I would find out who the owner of the first LBS is and write him a very professional letter detailing your ordeal and the outcome and letting him know that he lost a customer.
It will make you feel better and possibly if the owner cares- will -prevent this from happening to others in the future.
Kenal0

great story NOS88. Can't wait to hear the final outcome.

Actually, I think you should publish the LBS's name. If they don't want this incident coming to light, maybe they should have handled it differently, besides, others should be warned of that type of "customer service".

Glad you thought to call the original shop. Hope things work out for you.

I think we're all waiting to see what happens, keep us posted.

Two observations:
1) You handled this well. Please let us know how it works out.
2) Please forgive my complete lack of enthusiasm for CF frames and components.

When this is totally resolved, I think you should let us know just who the good guys and the not-so-good guys are.

There has to be accountability somewhere. Why not on a forum read by 50,000+ folks? Send a copy of this forum discussion to the "not-so-good" guy. It should give him a bit of an awakening. Let him know that as of now, there are 62,607 members.

Two observations:
1) You handled this well. Please let us know how it works out.
2) Please forgive my complete lack of enthusiasm for CF frames and components.

Right there with you... And along with the OP... it really amazes me that so many LBSs frankly don't care. I just don't see how they can stay in business in many cases.

Let him know that as of now, there are 62,607 members.

Not to mention that the whole world is lurking...

Let him know that as of now, there are 62,607 members.

But how many have the last name Diego?;)

Back on topic: Did you do much business with the first store? The owner may have been looking at a bit of work for you without getting a nickel out of it. Not that I think he is right, but just trying to figure out his motivation.

But how many have the last name Diego?;)

Back on topic: Did you do much business with the first store? The owner may have been looking at a bit of work for you without getting a nickel out of it. Not that I think he is right, but just trying to figure out his motivation.


First store got a couple hundred dollars out of me this year. Next year... zero, zip, nada, nothing. I regret to say that I think his motivation is more than just dollars. However, if he simply does an equipment swap, he'd still get about $100 for the work. If he gets his percentage of a replacement frame that's in addition to his fee for the parts swap. The very first time I went into that LBS I didn't feel comfortable. I was greeted by a salesperson who looked me up and down (I am a Clydesdale) and said that they cater mostly to tri-athletes. I'm sure I don't fit their mental image of the kind of customers they want to serve, but I thought that maybe it was just me being too sensitive. Should have trusted my first instincts.

I would have had to bite my tongue in order to hold it. Oooowww. You held it together pretty well. bk

I snapped two Ultegra rear derailleurs like you did just last year. For a while, I was carrying a spared RD and a chain tool instead of a tube (I had zero flats last year.) I finally decided that was ridiculous and the Shimano stuff was just second quality. I sold the two bikes that had Shimano equipment. I'm now 100% Campagnolo on the road bikes.

Absolutely no question - you handled this brilliantly, NOS88. Thanks for helping ferret out who some of the good guys and bad guys are in the industry.

And for you bike shops and companies who read this stuff, please remember the basic lesson illustrated here: if a customer comes to you with a problem, that can be a golden opportunity to make them a customer for life if you handle it right. I am not saying that I subscribe to the "customer is always right" school of thought - some customers are, in fact, scammers or clueless or just jerks. But most aren't. But if you make the little bit of extra effort to treat a customer with a problem with respect and make a good faith effort to figure out what the real issue is, and then do the fair thing in response (notice I did not say that you automatically do anything the customer says, but to do the fair thing), you will almost certainly build up a loyal following who will be the best source of advertising you could ever hope for.

I say three cheers for the shop that stood behind its products even when they didn't sell that brand any more, and three cheers for the company rep who made sure that you were properly taken care of. How much do you want to bet that one of the next calls the rep made was either (a) to the first shop to tell the owner (in short, Anglo-Saxon words) to stop screwing up his brand's image or (b) to whoever else is in charge of making such phne calls?

I agree you handled it correctly but I do not think mentioning this LBS would be the right thing to do.
There might be 5 good employees and one bad apple. I think at least a phone call to the owner or manager would be in order first. Think if you were the owner of a LBS, trusted people to run your store because you could not be there all the time and they were not doing it properly, you would appreciate a heads up to make things right.
Cannot wait to here the outcome tomorrow.
Kenal0

I agree you handled it correctly but I do not think mentioning this LBS would be the right thing to do.
There might be 5 good employees and one bad apple. I think at least a phone call to the owner or manager would be in order first. Think if you were the owner of a LBS, trusted people to run your store because you could not be there all the time and they were not doing it properly, you would appreciate a heads up to make things right.
Cannot wait to here the outcome tomorrow.
Kenal0

It was the owner of the first LBS that made the lame call about the frame replacement... so this should plastered all over the net.

The company that made the frame was in the right... so they should get a bit of good from all this.

The LBS that bent over backwards should get all the business they can handle.

I'm tempted to "out" the owner of my LBS for his poor service as well. I left a set of vintage hubs and rims with him to build wheels for my '66 Paramount the first part of July. He promised turn around in one week. I decided two weeks would be acceptable. The third week one of the teen techs told me one wheel was done and the other started. The fourth week I decided to drop in to check on the progress and they couldn't find my wheels! The owner was not in. He hadn't returned my calls for several days. I took it upon myself to enter the service area to look and finally uncovered my rims and hubs (without a single installed spoke) in a back closet. I left steaming and decided that night to retrieve everything the next morning. The next morning the owner was in and wouldn't speak to me. The end result; he will never receive one dollar from me in business, and the hundreds of people who respect my opinion, will never hear me recommend his shop for anything, including his winter sports and water related stuff. I doubt if I will put much of a dent in his profits.

Amazing stories. You have to wonder how some folks stay in business treating customers the way they do...

NOS-I had a rear alloy hanger to break on a carbon frame and it was sent back to the factory for replacement. Instead of replacing the dropout/hangar they sent me a newer model frame. The reason the hangar broke was a broken spoke dropped down into the chain and was pulled back into the derailleur. I thought that was really terrific service...........

I wouldn't be so sure Pastorbob. You truly might be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

And for NOS88: Why were you ever doing any business at a store that caters to "tri" types? Your instincts were 100% correct. You should do your business at a "roadie" store.

BTW I too am borderline/stealth "Clyde" myself at 6' 2" tall and 200 lbs. I've gotten my percentage body fat down enought that I don't look to be 200 lbs. I wear the same size clothes that I wore when I graduated high school and weighed 185 lbs and most people guess my weight to be around that.

I hope that it all works out well for you. Please tell us who all the "good guys" are when this all shakes out.

[QUOTE=genec]It was the owner of the first LBS that made the lame call about the frame replacement... so this should plastered all over the net.

The company that made the frame was in the right... so they should get a bit of good from all this.

The LBS that bent over backwards should get all the business they can handle.[/QUOTE

Well then I agree post it all over the net and anywhere else. If that is the way he wants to run his business then he should pay for it.
Kenal0

The end result; he will never receive one dollar from me in business, and the hundreds of people who respect my opinion, will never hear me recommend his shop for anything, including his winter sports and water related stuff. I doubt if I will put much of a dent in his profits.

You have hundreds of people who respect your opinion??? That's impressive!!!

(Just teasing, PB, you know that... :D )

...I would find out who the owner of the first LBS is and write him a very professional letter detailing your ordeal and the outcome...

Hi NOS88 -

I agree with Kenal0's suggestion about a letter when this is all over, but I suggest an alternative:

Write the letter directly to the bike manufacturer (preferably, the person in the company whose help you've received). Thank the manufacturer for their support of their product and let them know that their dealer did not support either the manufacturer OR you, as a customer of that manufacturer's product. Copy a letter to the shop owner who sold you the bike.

The manufacturer needs to know that their dealer isn't serving them or their customers well.

Good luck with the replacement, and much gratitude that you weren't injured!

How about making it a policy in 50+ to praise the good shops and ignore the bad apples? Too goody-goody?

How about making it a policy in 50+ to praise the good shops and ignore the bad apples? Too goody-goody?

I see absolutely nothing wrong with identifying any enterprise by name if they've delivered poor customer service.

For instance, I wouldn't recommend Performance Bikes on La Mesa Boulevard in La Mesa, CA. They're not horrid, but they have a "superior" attitude that leaves much to be desired. I've been there twice, I shall not return. I'm tired of being looked at as though I'm an annoyance, or an irritant. And it's not just me; I watched them deal with others the same way. I'm a customer, and since every other LBS I've visited has been terrific, I know what's possible. The sales crew at Performance Bikes in La Mesa scores a two thumbs down.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with identifying any enterprise by name if they've delivered poor customer service.
All-righty then...the gloves are off!
Refer to my new signature...

Actually, I think you should publish the LBS's name. If they don't want this incident coming to light, maybe they should have handled it differently, besides, others should be warned of that type of "customer service".

+1

Also, good job, NOS88 for keeping your cool and persisting!

Steve

I see absolutely nothing wrong with identifying any enterprise by name if they've delivered poor customer service.


I agree. Isn't that the purpose of a forum, to exchange ideas and share experinces? even when the experince is negative?

I'm don't certain it's fair to publish the shop's name on the forum cause we don't really know how the exchange went - we have only one side... however, if the owner was as rude as he seems to us, and he didn't at least contact the rep to allow the rep to make the decision (how hard is that to do?) then it's fair for NOS88 not to patronize the shop and nor should his friends. AND it really doesn't matter if NOS88 is a long time customer or first time - everyone should be treated the same - with courtesy and respect.

Here's hoping your problem is resolved. Thank goodness the break didn't cause an accident and you were hurt!

I'm don't certain it's fair to publish the shop's name on the forum cause we don't really know how the exchange went - we have only one side...

The forward it to the store owner involved and ask for his response to be published in this thread. Then we would either have two sides, or his lack of a response.

We might be better served by publishing the sites that do provide superior service. It might be worthy of a sticky thread even. I can think of a couple that I would not recommend, but there is one that I would highly recommend.

+1 : I'd much rather know the RECOMMENDED shops than worry about the others...and this would give an incentive (maybe) for LBS's to be included.

Although how are you going to know if an LBS is nominating itself?

I'm tempted to "out" the owner of my LBS for his poor service as well. ..... I left steaming and decided that night to retrieve everything the next morning. The next morning the owner was in and wouldn't speak to me. The end result; he will never receive one dollar from me in business, and the hundreds of people who respect my opinion, will never hear me recommend his shop for anything, including his winter sports and water related stuff. I doubt if I will put much of a dent in his profits.

Why is it that people will just not own up to their mistakes and choose to make a bad situation worse through indifference and laziness!!!! Customer Service (that is most of what I do for a living in a service oriented business) is not all about the customer always being right, but is all about working with someone to solve their problem and meet their needs and expectations if possible. The stories shared here are examples of a lack of integrity for some and the willingness to go one step further to help a guy out even if they do not get a penny out of it.

I go by the "One dollar one vote!" A couple of these places would never get my vote (dollars) or a recommendation to anyone. Maybe if they figure out it is hitting them in the pocket book they will alter the ways!

We might be better served by publishing the sites that do provide superior service. It might be worthy of a sticky thread even. I can think of a couple that I would not recommend, but there is one that I would highly recommend.


I've thought about what you and Centxwoody said. And I think (for now at least) publishing the name of the shop that gave superior service would be highly appropriate.

The shop that treated me with respect and went out of their way to help me solve a problem was:

BIKE SPORT in Trappe, PA.

What the heck, the shop that I would like to plug is Charleston Bicycle Center in Charleston, WV. They have always treated me great. Can't say enough good things about them, the only negative thing I can say is they are 180 miles from me, but I drive there to do business with them anyway. (My daughter lives in that area also, good excuse to go there)

I think that the service from your LBS was less than adequate, but I think he is right. Your issue is with Shimano. The Ultegra derailleur broke and hit the chainstay and fractured it. You said that originally you thought that the chainstay was just scuffed up until you inspected closer. So it is not hanging in half. How would that ever cause your RD to break in half?

Talk to Shimano, it caused the crack in your chainstay. The most I would expect the frame company to do for you is to sell you a frame at cost, and they probably will just to keep you from blaming them all over the internet. Carbon fiber, is not a realistic long term bicycle solution EXACTLY because of this kind of impact.

Sorry for your troubles, but I have seen broken Ultegra derailleurs before, yikes!

vjp

My issue with the first LBS owner was more that his service was insulting, not less than adequate. Any time someone questions my honesty, perceptions, etc. by saying that I didn't have GPS or a camera on the bike, therefore he doesn't really know... well, he's crossed the line from poor customer service into rude, insulting, and hostile behavior. Then to follow it up by suggesting that maybe I need to open my own bike company and design my own bikes.... No, my issue has nothing to do with his assessment of what happened, it had to do with a complete disrespect for me, and for this I have no tolerance.

The more this saga unfolds, the more it becomes clear to me that the only real power I have in this situation is my choice of where I'll spend my dollars on my cycling needs in the future. I won't be able to control what the company does. It could be that I'll need to spring major dollars to replace my ride. If the first dealer had shown even the most basic respect there's a good chance he would see me in his shop with wallet open. Not a snowball's chance in hell of that now.

I'm [not] certain it's fair to publish the shop's name on the forum cause we don't really know how the exchange went - we have only one side... This is an open forum. Posting the shop name will encourage them to respond, if there really is another side to the story.

Besides, what is there to dispute? While I see the guy's point about the frame damage not being covered under warranty, his real sin was refusing to contact the manufacturer about it. There's no excuse for that. The rudeness was inevitable as he tried to cover his ass.

Interesting tale. While my impulse would also be to speak with the [shop #1] owner, realistically you probably don't want to deal with them at this point anyway. Would there be any satisfaction in the transaction for you other than vengeance? What could they possibly do for you? I would definitely reward the good guys, though.

I've cultivated a pretty good relationship with my LBS (they probably think "cha-ching" when they see me walk in). I don't always agree with them, but they have been nothing but courteous, respectful, and helpful. When I built my CF bike, I bought my Ultegra gruppo from them even though I knew I could get it cheaper in cyberspace. They helped with questions, advice, tweaking, little bits, etc.

Wait a minute -- ultegra components on a CF frame? :eek: