Advocacy & Safety - Idiots on bikes

Xx

Though I can relate to your sentiments, yelling at people rarely accomplishes anything. Actually, I used to be a pretty reckless rider myself, but as I grew older, I stopped doing some of the crazy stuff I used to do. One can only hope that this rider will wise up before he hurts anyone, including himself.

I see fools like that every day. There are far too many of them giving the rest of us a bad name. In fact, last night while out at the pub we have to step outside onto the sidewalk to have a smoke and each time I did, I counted the number of cyclists riding within inches of me (I don't get out of the way) and there were 17.

But if you don't mind me asking, what were YOU doing on the sidewalk on your bike?

When I have a set time to be somewhere (such as work), I ride the roads and /or the sidewalk. When I'm going to the store, or going for beer and smokes, I ride the sidewalk. Here where I live, it is very dangerous for bicycles on the road---in my county--in my city--15 dead cyclists in 2005........creeping toward that already this year...over 100 motor vehicle to motor vehicle accidents every day. Even on the sidewalk, though, I still follow the rules of the road.

I appreciate the dangers you face, but if you take into consideration that 15 fatalities really isn't that many considering the number of cyclists in your city and county. It is also possible that a good third of those fatalities occured when cyclists were on the sidewalk and passing over driveways, cross-streets and laneways. Most studies show that 35% of accidents involving cyclists occured when a cyclist was on the sidewalk. And it just seems hypocritical that you'd complain so vociferously about a sidewalk cyclist when you were admittedly doing the same thing, though perhaps not quite as dangerously.

You ride on the sidewalk!!! ther'es really nothing left to discuss tom.

Yeah, I had someone like that blow through a light that I was stopped at a couple of days ago. I told him he gave cyclists a bad name as I passed him. He seemed pretty oblivious.

99% of the fatalities last year were in the road..........on the roadway---of those, 75% were caused by the bicyclist, usually crossing intersections illegally. One sad note, the 1% was when some guy backed over his child in the driveway---he later tried to commit suicide. I am the least hypocritical person that I know. I ride 85% on the sidewalk simply because in this area it is so much safer. I guess you just overlooked the part about how many motor vehicle wrecks per day there are! I do have proof to back up what I say-- try logging on to the St. Pete Times...you'll see. I honestly don't want to hear one more friggin' word about how dangerous it is to ride on the sidewalk. If you don't know how to ride--if you don't pay attention, if you don't follow the simple rules of the road, then evrywhere you ride is dangerous. And god help the next ignorant sob they scrape up off the road. amen........sermon over. sorry-but I really get miffed when people spout things they obviously know nothing about.

Relax. I wasn't trying to pick a fight. I simply pointed out a rather glaring and obvious fact.

As a cycling commuter for more than twenty-five years as well as a published cycling advocate, I know exactly whereof I speak. Studies both here in Toronto and in other American cities universally confirm that approximately 30% of accidents involving cyclists occur as a result of sidewalk cycling.

Riding on the sidewalk is several more times more dangerous than riding in the street. (William Moritz, 1998)

(http://www.toronto.ca/transportation/publications/bicycle_motor-vehicle/pdf/car-bike_collision_report_ch3.pdf) (page 11)

Think it's safer on the sidewalk?
Think again!
Cyclists who ride on sidewalks are more likely to be involved in a collision - either by crashing into street furniture, pedestrians or cars pulling out of driveways - than those who ride on the road. Cyclists should be visible, predictable and have the ability to maneuver easily through any situation. Riding on the sidewalk makes these much more difficult, so take your place on the road. - http://www.ottawasafecommunities.org/safe_cycling.htm

While I won't defame you by challenging your claim that 99% of accidents/fatalities were on the road, I'll highlight that a cyclist coming off the sidewalk and onto the road and being hit or hitting a vehicle is considered a sidewalk-related accident even if they were technically killed on the road. I have never heard of a study where only 1% of fatalities were sidewalk based, but if you say so...

I did read where you mentioned the high incidence of motor vehicle crashes, but that does not diminish the fact that it remains even more dangerous to you to operate your vehicle on a pedestrian way. I wasn't discounting the reckless and foolish behaviour of the cyclist you witnessed; it was stupid, no question. I am sure you don't ride like that: blow through red lights or weave arund pedestrians at an unreasonable speed. It's just that you were so incensed that he came up onto the sidewalk and you, too, were on a sidewalk and that smacks of hypocrisy whether you are the least hypocritical person you know or not. In most jurisdictions in North America, it is illegal for an adult to ride on the sidewalk (childrens bicycles with 20" rims or less are permitted) as it endangers pedestrians needlessly and puts the cyclist at greater risk. There's not a study I've ever heard of that will dispute that.


I honestly don't want to hear one more friggin' word about how dangerous it is to ride on the sidewalk. If you don't know how to ride--if you don't pay attention, if you don't follow the simple rules of the road, then evrywhere you ride is dangerous.

Whether you want to hear verifiable facts or not, the facts are if you DO know how to ride, you can and will avoid most collisions (I ride a minimum 10km daily and have not been in an accident in 24 years) by paying attention, as you mention, and following simple rules of the ROAD, one of which is not to ride on the sidewalk (it's not part of the road, after all).

Nuff said. Good luck in your rides. Take care.

Bikes Are For The Road!!!

One can only hope that this rider will wise up before he hurts anyone, including himself.

That's one thing I always liked about cycling, if you do crazy stupid ****, odds are you'll only be responsible for your own death/injury, unless you manage to hit a ped, which seems pretty rare.

crashing into street furniture


LOL

TAKE THE BIKE AWAY

I say let Darwin rack up a few more points. Lots of roadies out here are bad like that.

The club rides have a few stop signs that get ignored entirely, but stop lights DO get paid attention to.

https://secure.goomzee.com/imageserver/71/images/DarwinFishPlaque-th.jpg

Even on the sidewalk, though, I still follow the rules of the road.

On the sidewalk you shouldn't follow the rules of the road. Road riding is much too fast for the sidewalk. You'll injure pedestrians as you try to pass them and confuse drivers as you enter and exit the roadway.

If you're on the sidewalk you should follow the rules of the sidewalk. A 2 - 3 MPH pace, get off and walk across driveways and intersections, etc.

I say let Darwin rack up a few more points. Lots of roadies out here are bad like that.

The club rides have a few stop signs that get ignored entirely, but stop lights DO get paid attention to.

nownow, dont pick on the roadies. Lots of cyclists are bad like that, not just roadies. Cyclists of every stripe are fully capable of doing silly things and creating problems.

nownow, dont pick on the roadies. Lots of cyclists are bad like that, not just roadies. Cyclists of every stripe are fully capable of doing silly things and creating problems.


Specially those dirty nasty fixed gear people... scumbags they are !!! :eek:

for god's sake, man, haven't you learned? if you ride on the sidewalk don't mention it in BF or some VC safety nanny will jump your ****.

Enigmatic, I looked at the study you cited. over half (53%) of the cyclists involved in sidewalk accidents in the study in Toronto were under 18. more experienced adults are apparently more able to avoid the incredible minefield of dangerous sidewalk accidents than kids...

I was on the sidewalk


When I have a set time to be somewhere (such as work), I ride the roads and /or the sidewalk. When I'm going to the store, or going for beer and smokes, I ride the sidewalk.


I see your logic.... The laws only apply to you when you want them to. What if the drivers of cars drove up on the sidewalk ONLY when they had to get to work or when they were picking up beer and smokes? After all, they had to get somewhere, beer and cigarrettes are necessities, why should they have to abide by the laws? Just goes to show there is no reality, just perception.... What a nut.

Even on the sidewalk, though, I still follow the rules of the road.


So tell me, how do you make a left turn from the sidewalk?

Do you stop at every block?

for god's sake, man, haven't you learned? if you ride on the sidewalk don't mention it in BF or some VC safety nanny will jump your ****.

ha! What was this thread about again?

sidewalk furniture.

I think.

for god's sake, man, haven't you learned? if you ride on the sidewalk don't mention it in BF or some VC safety nanny will jump your ****.

Enigmatic, I looked at the study you cited. over half (53%) of the cyclists involved in sidewalk accidents in the study in Toronto were under 18. more experienced adults are apparently more able to avoid the incredible minefield of dangerous sidewalk accidents than kids...

While I don't dispute that just over half of the sidewalk cycling accidents involvved kids under 18, I also cite personal experience (Wednesday evening is a prime example - see my firsy reply) where I was very nearly hit a total of 17 times in only two hours by adult sidewalk cyclists. Granted, the pub I was visiting exits directly onto the sidewalk and anyone exiting any of the adjacent stores or above-store apartment would step directly into the path of a sidewalk cyclist, not all sidewalks present such sudden dangers. It still doesn't explain, however, why there are so many adult sidewalk cyclists on such a dangerous sidewalk when a perfectly safe road is merely inches away and was being used by literally hundreds of cyclists during the same period on Wednesday evening.

I see your logic.... The laws only apply to you when you want them to. What if the drivers of cars drove up on the sidewalk ONLY when they had to get to work or when they were picking up beer and smokes? After all, they had to get somewhere, beer and cigarrettes are necessities, why should they have to abide by the laws? Just goes to show there is no reality, just perception.... What a nut.

Come on dude, his riding habits represent the majority of cyclists, not the minority, like us (except for the riding to work part, which is also in the minority). I may not be a fan of riding on the sidewalk, but that's my opinion and not license to look down my nose or castigate those who ride the sidewalk. I don't see anything at all wrong with what he's stated and I think we should stick to the subject of the idiot in the road running the light, rather than start a sidewalk cycling lecture...I think there is a sticky for that. :p

Though I can relate to your sentiments, yelling at people rarely accomplishes anything.
I can't say I've ever modified my behavior based on advice yelled at me. With the exception of friendly yells from people I know (I tell my friends and wife to yell, honk, or even buzz me if they feel the inclination since it helps me hone my reflexes so I'll do the right thing in real situations), about 98% of the advice yelled at me recommends that I do something illegal, stupid, or maybe try some new sexual activity.

The remaining 2% is where I screwed up. In those cases, I deserve to be yelled at, but I still don't pay attention. I already know what I did wrong, and being vented on doesn't make me feel more guilty. Actually, somewhat less so, since I've paid part of the price for doing the wrong thing.

Come on dude, his riding habits represent the majority of cyclists, not the minority, like us (except for the riding to work part, which is also in the minority). I may not be a fan of riding on the sidewalk, but that's my opinion and not license to look down my nose or castigate those who ride the sidewalk. I don't see anything at all wrong with what he's stated and I think we should stick to the subject of the idiot in the road running the light, rather than start a sidewalk cycling lecture...I think there is a sticky for that.

first of all, I am a dudette. :)

Personally, I don't care if someone rides on the sidewalk or not. I am not a VC nut. I agree with many of the principles, but am not appalled and horrified like some others in this forum, when other cyclists are less informed. Cycling is a very safe activity even if you are not following all of the rules. No sense getting the panties in a bunch over a sidewalk rider.

What I took offense to, is the OPs tunnel vision perception that this other sidewalk rider was at fault, guilty, a law breaker, and an idiot, when the OP was doing the same thing and felt justified. It was the selective applicability of the laws dependent upon why the OP was riding on the sidewalk. The OP stated that it was okay to ride on the sidewalk because he was getting beer and smokes. It was the hypocrisy that I was speaking to.

op is a troll. not a very good one at that.

first of all, I am a dudette. :)

Personally, I don't care if someone rides on the sidewalk or not. I am not a VC nut. I agree with many of the principles, but am not appalled and horrified like some others in this forum, when other cyclists are less informed. Cycling is a very safe activity even if you are not following all of the rules. No sense getting the panties in a bunch over a sidewalk rider.

What I took offense to, is the OPs tunnel vision perception that this other sidewalk rider was at fault, guilty, a law breaker, and an idiot, when the OP was doing the same thing and felt justified. It was the selective applicability of the laws dependent upon why the OP was riding on the sidewalk. The OP stated that it was okay to ride on the sidewalk because he was getting beer and smokes. It was the hypocrisy that I was speaking to.

Sorry, dudette (are ya cute? :D ), but I didn't get that from his post. I took it that he (OMG he could be a she too...THIS IS TOO DAMNED HARD FOR OLD FELLERS LIKE ME) was more concerned about blowing the light, not so much about the fact that he got on the sidewalk afterward. I also took it that he, or she, or it, chose riding road or sidewalk based on his/her/its comfort level with the route or time constraints. After all, that's one of the advantages of a bike - we can go from vehicle to pedestrian seamlessly. :) Me thinks you just don't like beer and smokes. I guess that's the thing about these forums, we can both read the same thing yet get a totally different meaning from it...not to mention the fact that ya can't tell a guy from a gal from a transvestite. :eek:

I may not be a fan of riding on the sidewalk, but that's my opinion and not license to look down my nose or castigate those who ride the sidewalk. I don't see anything at all wrong with what he's stated and I think we should stick to the subject of the idiot in the road running the light

I'm of the same position. Who I hate a whole lot more and can't give that "I disagree but to each his own" treatment to are the "let's blow *EVERY* light" idiots. Not only do they potentially give us all a bad name, but they can directly endanger *me* when I'm riding, and a lot more frequently than the aforementioned sidewalk riders.

Beyond the legal aspect, stoplights are there to control the flow of traffic and discourage people from running into each other's vehicles. Do I have a problem with going through a light when there's absolutely no cross traffic? Eh...well, I don't do it myself, but I won't give anyone serious crap about it. The thing is it's often not possible to be sure that there's no cross traffic until you're entering the intersection, and at that point if you're wrong, you're going to have a close call, get hit, or eat street trying not to get hit.

Just about every three days, at least one direction on my commute involves playing leapfrog with this guy on a schmancy hybrid who presumably works just down the way from me and maybe lives about 1.5 miles from me (or at least the turn-off to the rest of his commute is). He rides really slow and so I usually pass him and get a a block or two ahead of him. Then I get stuck at a longer light, and about 5 seconds before the light's going to change, he usually buzzes by real close on the left or right, often with only a few inches to spare. The pattern repeats until I manage to clear a couple lights in a row and get far enough ahead where this becomes a non-issue. I've seen him nearly get creamed three times, so there's no telling how many times he's managed to cheat the odds and not wind up in the hospital. How this type of rider can be in such a hurry that they just *have* to run all the lights but ride like it's just another effing weekend jaunt is beyond me. I wish I could stop this guy and tell him that he's seriously endangering himself and others, but I honestly think there's no getting through for some.

Me thinks you just don't like beer and smokes. I guess that's the thing about these forums, we can both read the same thing yet get a totally different meaning from it...not to mention the fact that ya can't tell a guy from a gal from a transvestite.

You are definitely right about perceptions...

Nothing against beer or smokes. I have never smoked and can't stand the smell of it, but think all of the legislation is a little too over the top. I have no problem if someones smokes. It isn't the brightest thing to do, but most of us have our own vices that aren't the brightest thing to do either.

Alright I am against the swill Americans claim is beer. :) I love a good Belgian or German wheat beer. I rarely drink, but when I do, it is the good stuff. There is a place in Philly called Ludwig's Garten that serves excellent beer and wonderful German food. You can get a flight of beer which is excellent for sampling purposes and where I starting loving REAL beer. Here is their current beer menu.
http://www.ludwigsgarten.com/beer.htm

I do think that justifying illegal riding with the need for beer and smokes is a little silly and frankly doesn't make any sense. Not sure what beer or cigs has to do with riding on the sidewalk.????

Look you guys, some guy minding his own business, riding lawfully and carefully on the sidewalk in Florida isn't going to be in as much danger or causing as much righteous indignation from the motorists out there as some guy blowing stop signs and jumping curbs willy-nilly with reckless disregard for life and limb.

If you live in California, save your high-and-mighty holier than thou sidewalk cycling is for idiots speech for some other day. This guy lives in Florida and I've heard a lot of horror stories about it. Enough so that I'll reserve any judgments about how Floridians ride their bikes until I've been there and experienced it myself.

I've been in San Francisco all week for a conference. Not once have I seen a cyclist *not* run a red light. Every single one blows past cars and through pedestrians walking in the crosswalk. All told I've seen between 40-50 do this in my time walking to and from the conference center and to restaurants.

I do think that justifying illegal riding with the need for beer and smokes is a little silly and frankly doesn't make any sense. Not sure what beer or cigs has to do with riding on the sidewalk.????

Is riding on the sidewalk illegal in your neck of the woods? It's legal here.

I agree about American beer...which is why I don't drink it. A good German beer now and then, maybe a Corona or Tecate for chasing the occassional shot of Cuervo. :D

nownow, dont pick on the roadies. Lots of cyclists are bad like that, not just roadies. Cyclists of every stripe are fully capable of doing silly things and creating problems.

True, it's just the first thing that comes to mind, since there really are no decent dirt trails near here (gotta drive a ways to find them), so it seems man+dog are roadies....even the MTBs I se out here are often roadie-ized, having bar to seat height variations of as much as 3", 1" wide slicks, road saddles, and similar.

Look you guys, some guy minding his own business, riding lawfully and carefully on the sidewalk in Florida isn't going to be in as much danger or causing as much righteous indignation from the motorists out there as some guy blowing stop signs and jumping curbs willy-nilly with reckless disregard for life and limb.

If you live in California, save your high-and-mighty holier than thou sidewalk cycling is for idiots speech for some other day. This guy lives in Florida and I've heard a lot of horror stories about it. Enough so that I'll reserve any judgments about how Floridians ride their bikes until I've been there and experienced it myself.

It's not all that dangerous so long as you are capable of sprinting. If you can't, then your road choices are limited. If your bike is gearing limited, then you are better off on the sidewalk.

and never, NEVER try to ride a lane on US19....that's asking for a quick death....55mph road, and even there the drivers are often pushing 70.

Most of the problem is people here are indescribably impatient...it's not that they are pissed at cyclists, they are just pissed that something is slowing them down. That's when they get irrational and take the car off the road entirely, and pull a baja to the next light.

Drivers out here are their own special brand of insane and stupid....you just have to learn the vibe of each street you commute on, and the general feel for every speed category/lane count of road in your area, then things start making sense.

The ones that are on my commute are pretty much used to me...but it seems they pay more attention to the bike than to me. if I ride one of my bikes for 4 months, then switch, it's as if they don't remember who I am anymore. I'm getting that again now that I picked up a folding bike for my commute....they think the thing is slow, so I keep nearly getting right hooked (I'm actually pushing around 16-18mph on it). Taking the lane just reduces the distance between me and them when they try to pass me since they never seem to change their positioning (from 3ft to inches, mostly due to inadequate room to make it into the turn lane before hitting the divider)...so taking the lane here will just get you killed.

And don't get me started on having to play chicken every single day to cross Gandy Blvd on the way home.

Is riding on the sidewalk illegal in your neck of the woods? It's legal here.


Couldn't tell ya....we don't have sidewalks! We don't even have police! We have the state police IF we call 911. There is no one to actually patrol the streets. I live in a rural area of South Jersey and don't really need any police.

Though, one time some kids in the area egged my house. I called the police and they came out, got the kids and made them clean it up. They stayed for 2 hours until it was done! The kids were also "sentenced" to do yard work for me. The cops called me on the day it was to be done to make sure the kids showed up. Yes, our police have nothing to do. It's nice.

In other areas I have lived, it was illegal for people above a certain age to ride on the sidewalk. And those that did ride on the sidewalk had to behave as pedestrians and dismount the bike walking it across the street.

Once again, slowandsteady, you have took what I wrote and tried to make it into something else completely off-point.
My problem, and my only contention was that this guy blatanly broke the law, and in so doing, could've hurt himself or someone else........

And so did you. And that IS the point.

er, chill out tomcryar:)

If it is illegal to ride on the sidewalk where you are, then you broke the law if you rode on it, as did the other cyclist (who also broke another law as well).

I'm just trying to point out the fact that I follow the rules of the road, and people who have blatant disregard for them have no business riding or driving

While I'm not about to get into a moral discussion of the rules of the road, I've been known to bend a few myself. Why? Safety...which it seems is your reasoning for riding on the sidewalk, which, in many places in the US *is* against the rules of the road.

So, at least understand that some people's behaviors, which may be considered "blatant disregard" from your perspective may be "safer" from their perspective. Because, while reading this, all I can think of are all the cars that whine about every little traffic infraction cyclists commit while rolling every single stop sign themselves.

Because at the end of the day, the cyclist who breaks the law may make other cyclists "look bad," but that individual is taking his/her life in their own hands. I generally think that most people who choose to do that have a reason of some sort. If they truly do have a death wish...well...that problem will soon correct itself, won't it?

I would like to submit my own style of riding as a refute to your argument here---I, as a sidewalk cycler, am more alert to every danger and every car, and every pedestrian, than your "road" cyclist...and I don't think I'm the only one. Thank you for your insight though, that's what helps keep us free........individual expression!

Funny how you promoting individual expression, yet, you find it your place to criticize anyone expressing themselves by riding (legally) on the road.

-Kurt

Last time I checked, this thread was about riding [I]illegally[I] in the road...please go back and read the comments before you post garbage.

Are you trying to say that riding in the road is illigal, period? God help you if you say "yes" - the whole A&S forum will tear you to shreds about that - for it is not.

As I understood your original post, this thread was about idiotic cyclists who dart on and off the sidewalk at high rates of speed...but it seems as if you had something else in mind.

And yes, I've gone back and read your comments, and find this segment of your opening post most interesting:


Riding in the road as a normal cyclist, coming down 46th ave in Lealman, (St. Petersburg, FL), I was stopped at the redlight on my bike (I was on the sidewalk)

How can you be riding road as a normal cyclist, and ride on the sidewalk at the same time?

-Kurt

https://secure.goomzee.com/imageserver/71/images/DarwinFishPlaque-th.jpg

http://www.venganza.org/images/emblems/hawaii2.jpg

Are you trying to say that riding in the road is illigal, period? God help you if you say "yes" - the whole A&S forum will tear you to shreds about that - for it is not.

As I understood your original post, this thread was about idiotic cyclists who dart on and off the sidewalk at high rates of speed...but it seems as if you had something else in mind.

And yes, I've gone back and read your comments, and find this segment of your opening post most interesting:



How can you be riding road as a normal cyclist, and ride on the sidewalk at the same time?

-Kurt

Easy. Doppleganger.
:eek:

I have never heard of a study where only 1% of fatalities were sidewalk based, but if you say so...


More interestingly, what is 1% of 15?

The "statistic" suggests that roughly one seventh of a person was killed on the sidewalk. Presumably the other six sevenths of this person slid into the street and was soundly massacred there.

In any case, though I agree that it's not advisable to ride on the sidewalk, it is legal (and required as I understand it) in some areas -- as long as you are traveling no faster than pedestrian traffic. In fact, one of our bike lanes in my city actually takes you ON TO the sidewalk!! Freaks me out personally, but the OP might just be in a gray area with respect to cycling law in his city.

Easy. Doppleganger.
:eek:

:roflmao:

My opinion? This thread should be titled "Crybabies on Bikes". The OP started the namecalling!

Why do you care what other people do? Are you really concerned for his safety, or just mad because he kept going while you stopped? Take care of yourself, and let him do the same. Simple and stress-free.

So I can assume you advocate breaking the laws?

No. He advocates that the ignorant roadie in question in your original post should continue doing so until he is eliminated via the Darwin theory.

-Kurt

So I can assume you advocate breaking the laws?

Unless you are on duty as a policeman, I advocate you mind your own business.

The guy who blew through the light probably wanted to impress his buds with his incredible average speed.

Steve E - That's usually why I blow red lights :o

By the way I like your veni vidi vomiti phrase!

While there is a sticky about sidewalk cycling, comments about sidewalk cycling in this thread are completely appropriate because the OP clearly identified it as a primary factor in the incident. It can't and shouldn't be dismissed just because Tomcryer wants to deflect away from the issue. Both cyclists were on the sidewalk. What is interesting is that Tomcryer, in his defence, never mentioned that sidewalk cycling IS legal in Tampa Bay. I looked it up. Perhaps he wasn't aware and decided to ride on the sidewalk whether it was legal or not. Either way, legal or not, seemingly safer or not, it is illegal in most other places for good reason and countless studies confirm that fact.

Was the guy who blew the stop sign and raced up onto the sidewalk a reckless moron? Absolutely. I doubt anyone is arguing in his favour, particularly if the intersection is as dangerous as the OP claimed.

Javaman---I looked back through some of your posts....I saw nothing of anything that could be construed as constructive or even helpful...This is the last time I will respond to one of your posts---you are simply not woth my time.

Nothing helpful? How about "Mind your own business"? That comment probably came across as too harsh, but the intent was "Don't let yourself become upset with things you can't control".