Big Trouble in Little Twenty

[rickyroy]

First of all, apologies about the length.

I just got an all-original Raleigh 20 from craigslist for $75. There's a decent smattering of rust, enough so that it's no candidate for a collector, but not so much that I'm worried. Put a new crank arm on it for $25 (old one was stripped) and I'm now in the 'testing' phase, wondering whether it's the bike for me or whether to turn around and sell it again. You guys have been very helpful so far; I hope you don't mind answering a couple of questions I have:

- I'm having a little trouble with my quick release seatpost and handlebars. It's the old style (sorry, don't know the tech. terms) where it's just a solid wingnut, not one that you turn and then flip. Anyway, I find especially on the seat I can turn it until it feels very tight, and still I'm able to accidentally or deliberately turn the seat while I'm riding it. Haven't felt the seat move up or down while I'm on it yet, but I'm worried it might. Even though it seems very, very tight to me, I can't seem to get the seat so that it doesn't move back and forth. Also notice it the odd time with the handlebars. So, is it just that these bolts/clamps are very old and need replacing? Or that these old wingnuts just need a very unreasonable-seeming amount of tightening? Maybe I should just convert them to non-quick-release. After my first experience with the seat moving beneath me I really made sure the bolt was quite tight, but I could still move side to side. I'm worried that I'll either damage the clamp/post by overtightening, or that something might move/come loose while riding.

- Also having fit issues. I haven't yet replaced the seat post and handlebars, and I was hoping maybe to be able to ride it in mostly original condition. My first upgrade will be to aluminum rims to improve braking performance, and I don't have too much $$ to put into the bike. So anyway, I'm about 6' or 6'1, and I'm not getting full or near-full leg extension when I pedal. At the bottom of my stroke, my knees are still well bent (a little pain in the knees while riding, soreness later). With a Raleigh Twenty, is it a matter of just getting used to pedaling with your knees bent? Or do you have to just upgrade the seat post/handlebars to get the same kind of pedal stroke and overall reach of a 'normal' bike?

- Am I just imagining things, or is it more difficult to get up hills on a smaller bike? On the twenty it feels like the pedal stroke (sorry if that's the wrong term) is smaller than on my old road bike--each stroke going a smaller distance and providing less propulsion--so that climbing steep ones just mean lots of little strokes and not too much "smoothe ride", if that makes sense. Also harder to stand up, with your behind off the seat, and pedal, 'cause then you feel a little too far over the handlebars. Others find this is true? Or am I just imagining it?

- Last one: around how much should I expect to pay to have the steel rims replaced with aluminum? I'm thinking this is my first--and hopefully only--major upgrade. As I say I'm on a tight budget and the bike just needs to get me around town, not to be the best performer around. But I'd like to actually be able to stop it while going downhill!

Other than those issues, I'm actually really loving it. It's got real potential to become my everyday commuter (it's about a 30 minute, mostly-flat ride each way). Just hope I can get over this stuff and get into my twenty. I'd much rather settle in to this great old bike with potential for upgrades later than sell it and buy some crappy but more solid and traditionally-fitting beater for $100. Hope we can sort out our differences and live happily ever after :P thanks for the tips, as always.

[JonathanG]

rikyroy,
The rims and spokes could cost about $40 per wheel and, if you don't build the new wheels yourself expect to pay about $30 per wheel for the build plus extra for having the hubs cut out of the old rims. Before you go that route, if what you're worried about is braking as opposed to weight, I'd suggest just changing the brakepads to Koolstop salmon pads.
I don't think as a general matter it's harder to climb with a small wheeled bike, and the problem with being too far out over the handlebars when you stand can be solved with a change in stem and handlebars and/or the addition of barends. You might want to check out the wonderful gallery (http://littlepixel.info/twenty/AnotherRaleighTwenty/Gallery.html) of forum member LittlePixel for ideas of what you can do with a 20.
Jonathan

[Wavshrdr]

If you have shorter crank arms you will exert less leverage (torque) so you will need to have lower gears to compensate. The upside is they are easier to spin at a higher RPM (for most people). I would NOT encourage standing up on the pedas while climbing on most folders.

If you are having knee issues extend the seatpost to compensate a bit for the shorter cranks. I like shorter ones than longer ones but it does depend on the bike and leg length. I prefer to spin rather than mash as usually it is easier on the knees.

As for the QR bits, disassemble them and clean out any rust on the tubes. Conisdering the likely age of the bike I think you are likely very wise to be cautious about how tight you make the fasteners. You don't want to break and welds or crack any parts. If you have it cleaned well and snug up the fittings ride it carefully for a while. If it seems to slip a bit then incrementally tighten it up to where you just stop the slippage. Keep in mind a big bump might cause it to drop a bit until you find the correct tightness. That is also why I suggested cleaning everything as you can't accurately tiaghten fittings and check for fit if there is corrosion.

My problem I had when riding a 20 is it was REALLY wheelie prone for me so I had to be careful on steep hills.Given your size you can exert a lot of force when you stand on the pedals. You might want to rethink gearing a bit so you aren't standing up to go up hills.

Just out of curiosity, why did you buy a 20? Did you REALLY want a 20 or just a low price? Based on what you will likely have in it, you will have as much as a new Downtube or Dahon would have cost and you'll have no warranty. I am not try to attack your decision but curious to see what your goals are. I know that you can sink a lot of money into a 20 to get it into good running condition. If you do the rim upgrades and unless you do the labor yourself, you definitely could have bought a new Downtube or Dahon for that money.

[rickyroy]

Just out of curiosity, why did you buy a 20? Did you REALLY want a 20 or just a low price? Based on what you will likely have in it, you will have as much as a new Downtube or Dahon would have cost and you'll have no warranty. I am not try to attack your decision but curious to see what your goals are. I know that you can sink a lot of money into a 20 to get it into good running condition. If you do the rim upgrades and unless you do the labor yourself, you definitely could have bought a new Downtube or Dahon for that money.

Hey. Well, I think I went with the 20 for three main reasons. I initially liked the look/feel/style, the fact that it folds, and I'd read lots of good things about how sturdy it was for my weight (260pounds). Oh, and the fact that I could find one for around $100 initially. I know it's likely to need major, expensive upgrades, but I'm sort of testing it out to see if I can reliably ride it without doing the expensive mods most people have to do. Perhaps it's too ambitious. From what I've read, the Dahons and Downtubes can't take my kind of weight. I had done a bunch of research and was actually not going to get a 20 because it seems like too much work/money and I'm a complete ignoramus. I have trouble changing a tube.

But then, sort of at the last moment, this person contacted me from an old craigslist ad offering me their all-original 20 for $75. I figured, even with the repair it needed (putting on the new crank arm), I could ride it around for a while and see if I like it. If not, I'm hoping I can put it up on craigslist and get my money back (or a little less). So now I'm in the testing phase and I have mixed feelings. I like it in a lot of ways, but am frustrated with the above issues. I may very well sell. If i do, though, I don't think I'd go with a Downtube/Dahon due to my size. I'd probably just get a beater to kick around town with, and give up on this bike that I like, and that maybe I can improve bit by bit if I really get into it.

Thanks for the reply :)

[randya]

WRT your 'loose' seatpost question. I had the same problem with my Raleigh 20, and it turned out not to be the seatpost clamp; but rather, my seat was turning at the seat mount clamp at the top of the seatpost. I've had to tighten the seat mount clamp bolt repeatedly to eliminate this problem.

WRT fit, I'm 6'2" and I just ride it with less leg extension; I got used to doing this riding kid's bikes in ZooBomb. Mine is basically set up so I can put my foot down flat on the ground when I stop with full leg extension, while sitting on the seat. I stand to pedal at startup and climbing hills to keep from straining my knees. If you've got the adjustable handlebars (not the ones welded to the stem), tilt them forward over the front wheel for a more comfortable riding position.

[DaFriMon]

Randya's suggestion as to why the seat might be turning sounds likely, with those old school seat clamps. If it is the whole seatpost, rather than the seat, you might want to check that somebody didn't replace it at some point with the wrong size one. I think the original seatpost is a 28.6 mm diameter. I replaced mine with a 27.2 mm, and used the appropriate shim to get it to fit.

As far as fit goes, well, I'm 5' 7", so it's not a problem on mine, but I have the seatpost at very close to maximum extension. The original seatpost may have been a tad longer, but not much. I don't recommend getting used to a knees bent riding position, but I'm not sure what the best solution for you would be. This page, http://drumbent.com/folders.html, has a home made solution that was tried by another tall person.

As for getting up hills, I have no trouble standing if I need to, but then, I am fairly small. It certainly isn't my best climbing bike, but I think that has more to do with the weight of the bike, and the rolling resistance of the tires I picked, than with the small wheels. I manage, anyway.

[AndrewP]

Longer crank arms would help with leg extension.

[jur]

I am just starting on my own R20 project, I can offer some advice on what i learned the past week:

Alloy rims: I picked up a new BMX front wheel for less than a good quality rim, spokes and labour not even considered. One shop even had a fully built wheel with tyre fitted for the same amount ($50 Australian, and our prices are hideously expensive). By replacing the original wheels, I am able to retain them if ever I wanted to refit them for resale in original condition.

Axle spacing: I had to spread the front fork to take the axle spacing, this although easy requires that you know what you're doing to get it the same offset to left and right. In addition, I had to file the dropouts a bit to accomodate the slightly larger axle.

Seat post: I got an alloy post for very little (Kalloy), 400mm long, right diameter. Clean out the seat tube a bit with an oily rag, perhaps a bit of sandpaper if there are edges, grease the new post and you're done.

Rust: It's worth getting some rust remover and soaking the rusty bits in it. Although I am a bit of an old hand in removing rust, I was again pleasantly surprised how parts that were literally covered in surface rust became like new once the rust was dissolved. Grease any threads and surfaces that rub, such as the quick releases.

Handle bar: I am getting something like a Nitto Dirtdrop stem to take a new alloy handle bar; all these bits can be had for very little and will make a huge difference in ridability.

Good luck on your project!

[Wavshrdr]

rickyroy- a Downtube will EASILY hold you. I know as I was bigger then you when I first got one. I have since slimmed down. From a weight perspective I never had any issues.

Again based on your weight, be careful with your weight being back. I rode a friend's 20 for a while and even when it wasn't wheeling with me on it, it had a very light front end over bumps.

Another to check with the seatpost is that there are no ridges on it. Definitely DON'T over tighten the clamp as you could damage the tube. Pull the seat post out and take a little emery cloth and knock off any ridges. There is also a special type of adhesive if I remember correctly that can be used in these situations. It was to help these type of fit issues after you've done everything else. I think it was called "suregrip" or something like that. If it gets to that point let me know and I'll try and look up the exact name of it.

[LittlePixel]

First of all, apologies about the length.
Never apologise for length - length equates to accuracy and eloquence!

I'm having a little trouble with my quick release seatpost and handlebars...
Mine had L-shaped levers but still in the old style. Can you test this maybe? Sit on the frame and wiggle to reproduce the rotation with someone having a good look to see where the play is happening? I think what's been said earlier is probably true - that in fact it's the saddle on the post and not the post in the frame that's moving. Those old clamps are made fairly cheaply, are probably fairly rusted and not the best design to start with. If yours is all rusted but you want to keep the old Brooks saddle you'll need to replace it but at the right specialist shop it shouldn't be more than a few dollars to get hold of a new old stock one. I recently did just that on my 700c Peugeot fixie - it cost about £2.50 GBP and was all new and nicely chromed.

Also having fit issues.
I really wouldn't recommend riding without getting the position right. My observations (and I'm only 5'5") riding a stock Twenty is the lack of reach. It's got a shortish wheelbase and coupled with the minute protrusion forward the stem makes from the centre of the headset meant it's fairly easy to knock even my knees on the handlebars on tighter turns. A longer stem or less extreme riser bars should sort this though. If you aren't managing to get your legs extended then the only two factors that can change are the height of the seat (higher!) or longer cranks. The latter is easy to sort if you were going the whole hog and replacing the bottom bracket and adding new cranks; (mine are 172mm Shimaon Tiagras); in your situation it will probably need to be the seatpost. If you're running it right up to it's safe line and you still aren't extending your legs then you really need to get a new post that's safe enough to go higher. As mentioned above - you'll probably have a job finding one in the size that fits so you'd do best to get one in the 27.2mm size and use a shim. A shim is basically a thin collar that fills the minor gap between the bigger hole in the frame and the smaller tube. I have this setup along with a new clamp and it's very solid. I have a carbon post I picked up on eBay for about £25; you can get perfectly decent aluminum ones from clearouts and old stock for very little and it would also sort out the rotation problem you are having.

Am I just imagining things, or is it more difficult to get up hills on a smaller bike?
It shouldn't be if the gearing is right but lots of things contribute - your tyres should be nice and firm, your chain clean and running freely and like has already been mentioned the position you are sitting. Twenty's were designed as a fairly pedestrian ride with a very upright riding position. The short reach I mentioned earlier is (as well as the fact you aren't able to extend your legs as well as you might) probably making it harder for you to get a bit forward so it's easy to stamp on the peddles and get the power you need down. I think when you have a more agreeable riding position you'll find hills a lot easier. I ride my twenty (mine is fixed gear now remember) up hills all the time and it's a breeze - easier than on my big-wheeled Pug if anything.

Last one: around how much should I expect to pay to have the steel rims replaced with aluminum?
Not a lot. Heck - you could probably buy a whole donor kids bike for next to nothing and canibalise the wheel rims and front hub from it. You'll need to be sure you can get a rim with the same amount of holes as your sturmey archer hub and find someone to who can build your existing hub into your new rim. I'd beware of BMX rims as many are too wide and massively over-strengthened (and heavy) for your use but alu mountain bike wheels should be the ticket. Someone above says just upgrade the brakeblocks but I think with dated caliper brakes and steel rims along with the fact you say you are a bigger man that getting some alu rims will significantly improve your stopping. Chrome is a terrible braking surface - and in the rain - almost non existent. If cheapo wheels do the trick I can imagine a time when you decide to upgrade - but however cheaply you do it it will be markedly better than the steel/chrome you have now.

Hope we can sort out our differences and live happily ever after :P thanks for the tips, as always.
I'm sure you will!

[rickyroy]

thanks everyone once again for all the help. I've tested it and it's definitely moving where the post meets the frame, not where the seat meets the post. Also noticed it getting lower too, not just side-to-side. It's a tough one.

[randya]

Longer crank arms would help with leg extension.
I'd be careful of longer cranks, the pedals will be more likely to hit the ground when cornering, the bottom bracket is already pretty low on these bikes.

As far as having trouble climbing hills, IMO most stock Raleigh 3 speeds are geared a bit high. I generally gear most three speed hubs down a bit by replacing the stock sprocket with one that has three or four more teeth on it. My Raleigh 20 came with stock 44x15 gearing, I replaced the 15 in the back with a 19. Easy to do, just remove the spring retainer. If the new spocket is thinner, you might need to add another thin shim.

[LittlePixel]

thanks everyone once again for all the help. I've tested it and it's definitely moving where the post meets the frame, not where the seat meets the post. Also noticed it getting lower too, not just side-to-side. It's a tough one.

Something you could try is roughing up the post a little to create more friction. And cleaning it as well. In another thread about new bikes someone had a descending seat problem that was resolved with a wipe to lessen the amount of grease on the post. In your case I doubt that there's much original grease on it but there really might be something to be had by scoring some vertical lines in the post with a metal scribe - the extra friction and mild displacement of the steel may well be enough to keep it tight. Maybe even just a little roughing with some sandpaper would be enough?

Failing that a makeshift shim fashioned from a pop can might work though please be careful it's tight before riding anywhere.

Who said 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence' didn't actually have some useful tips?

[juan162]

Rickyroy,
It seems you have already gotten tons of good advice from other fellow 20 riders. The only other thing I would add is to keep your eye out on ebay for some cheap wheels, as they come up fairly regularly for less than what you would pay to have them built. If you have a limited some of money to upgrade, I would also urge you to spend money on a proper length seat tube before buying new wheels, as that will improve your ride much more than aluminum rims will.
juan