Recumbent - riding recumbent in group of regular bikes

I just returned from our annual group ride across Wisconsin (credit card touring, 60 to 100+ miles/day, riders and support drivers trade off by arrangement), and I rode a recumbent (Burley Canto). This is the first bent in this group. I noticed a definite yo-yo effect. Bikes were definitely faster up the hills with greater advantage on steeper hills. I would scream down the long hills and blow by everyone (or mainly just catch up from previous lags on the uphills). I also noticed I had greater draft benefit in a pace line from them than they had from me. It was less enjoyable alternately lagging and surging. If I was leading a pace line and we encountered a hill, they would pull ahead a leave me trying to hold on or catch up later. Also, if I wanted to quit at lunch and trade with a sag driver, my bent would only fit on one vehicle. Overall, I hope to recover from this back problem and return to a conventional bike soon.

But, I WAS able to ride for extended periods on this bent, and am glad I tried it. I would not have been able to do this trip without it.

Why not keep riding the recumbent after you recover? Ok so you have to deal with the yo-yo effect & get passed on hills, etc. So what? Big deal. That is no reason to go back to a wedgie, where you feel beat up after a long ride, or your back, arms, neck & hands hurt, not to mention your ass.

You said yourself that you have a better draft when in a paceline & you can also lead a paceline, except on hills. You also said you were able to ride for extended periods on the bike. And with out the recumbent you would not have been able to do the trip.

So why go back to a wedgie? Have you thought that even after you recover your back may still bother you on a wedgie, where on a recumbent it obviously does not?

I agree; continue developing your recumbent muscles, and soon you may be able to keep up on those hills. You may also want to look into getting a Lightning P-38, they are reputed to be among the best hill-climbing bents around.

With what jeff-o stated, depending on what kind of shoes you wear when riding & unless you already are using road shoes you may want to switch to a road cycling shoe. I recently did this, used a spd mtn shoe for a long time. Since switching I have more power in my pedal stroke then I did before. This too can also help keep up on hills, etc. Of course if you already use a road shoe then there is probably no need for you to switch, except maybe try differant brands.

I am my own paceline. Even when I was riding in the line with Lance (yes that Lance) during Ragbrai, I passed him on the downhill and then got shunted back a bit on the uphills and had to rotate my way up. Until we hit a small mountain and most of the paceline got past me. It wasn't a big deal and was still a ton of fun!

I was riding a P-38, by the way.

What you're describing is just the way it is. Bents have different speed profiles from upright singles, and are more like tandems WRT climbing and descending. When riding with uprights, you should accept the fact that hills will separate the group, and if they don't regroup at the top you'll be riding alone a lot.

A large part of your problem may be with expectations for your bike. All bents are not faster than wedgies, and the Canto one that's not. With low gearing and relatively fat tires, what you're riding is the bent version of a 'comfort' bike.

..... With low gearing and relatively fat tires, what you're riding is the bent version of a 'comfort' bike.

Interesting point. I've wondered how "fast" some bents may be set up. My canto has 52/42/30 front rings and 12-26 rear, so I wasn't thinking it was low geared. If I used the big ring on flats, I often pulled away from the group. And although the tires are 20x1.5 and 26x1.5, they are slick, and pretty hard at 100PSI.

Do faster bents have anything greater than those stats (thinner tires)?

It is unlikely thinner tires would be substantially faster, when the 1.5" tires are pumped to 100#. I have the same experience when riding with small groups of DF riders. If the hill is relatively short, say 50-200yds and not too steep I find it useful to 'charge the hill' and try to maintain a high cadence and speed
as long as possible before switching down. Once my speed drops below 11-12mph though, I am toast and just have to motor on while the DF riders catch up and pass me. Those hills that have a long gentle roll up kill just enough speed that this tactic fails and I am resigned to going up 2-3mph lower than the DF riders and trying to catch up later.
Steve

I am currently "down" on my 'bent which I started riding this spring. I certainly enjoy relaxed solo riding in rural areas on the 'bent, but, when it comes to group riding with my friends, all on regular road bikes, it is just not fun. I will keep the 'bent for now, but, the road bike is my choice for group rides. I find the 'bent hangs in the garage for longer and longer periods of time between rides.

I yo yo when riding with a group all the time and no one thinks anything about it.
If I were to name my bike I would call it "Crazy Horse!" The reason??? When the bad guys were after Crazy Horse back in the 1800's chasing him on horseback, he would walk his horse up the hills, and gallop down! The bad guys would see him walking up the hills and spur their horses to catch him, which they almost would near the top of the hill. At the top of the hill Crazy Horse would gallop his horse DOWN the hill and escape then walk up the next one, and so on. At the end of the day, all the bad guys horses would be dog tired and spent, and his horse would still be fresh. So I tell all my upwrong riding buddies that at the end of the day I'll still be fresh when they are spent. And in some ways that is true.
A bent has to be ridden that way - take advantage of every flat or downhill and blow by the uprights. Sure they will pass you on the uphills, but at the end of the day it is a wash. Nothing bad about bents or wedgies - they are simply ridden differently to be at their peak efficiency.
Last week I did a 400+ ride with a mixture of bents and uprights. I think the overall speed more depended on the RIDER than the type of bike they rode. There was a guy on a trike, which I always consider a bit slow, who absolutely blew past EVERYONE uphill or downhill, bents and uprights alike. He pulled up to me on an uphill, throttled back and talked a bit, then took off like a scalded cat and passed everyone! And this guy was maybe 65 - 70 and passed all the young jocks on their uprights with ease!

But by and large, all the bents tend to pass the uprights on the flats and downhill stretches, and the uprights pass us on the ascents. But bents are about COMFORT, not about sitting on a moving fence post with sore backs and rears and necks and numb hands clad in boxing gloves going a bit faster uphill.

Is there always this much trashing of "upright bikes" in the recumbent forum?

Easy there fellas, they're all just bikes.

Interesting point. I've wondered how "fast" some bents may be set up. My canto has 52/42/30 front rings and 12-26 rear, so I wasn't thinking it was low geared. If I used the big ring on flats, I often pulled away from the group. And although the tires are 20x1.5 and 26x1.5, they are slick, and pretty hard at 100PSI.

Do faster bents have anything greater than those stats (thinner tires)?

I would venture to say that most bents are not set up for speed, nor even designed for it. It takes the right mixture of components, plus the actual design geometry of the frame, the right wheels, and probably most importantly, the weight.

Sorry - My group is always poking fun at each other, between the uprights and bents. Certainly no harm intended. If my back wasn't so bad I'd have at least one or two uprights as well as the bents.

I ride in about four different groups during the week with few problems. They vary from a beginner's ride that I lead for the local club to a "kick butt and take names" type of group. There's some good-natured ribbing but nothing nasty and mutual respect abounds.

Dennis

I would venture to say that most bents are not set up for speed, nor even designed for it. It takes the right mixture of components, plus the actual design geometry of the frame, the right wheels, and probably most importantly, the weight.

I disagree. I ride faster in head winds compared to my wedgie counterparts. I also pass wedgies on downhills. I am faster on flats with a good tail wind. On flats with no or little tail wind I'd say it is an even match. On uphills I am slower.

But at the end of say a 50 mile ride that had say 20 miles of it riding into head winds I still feel good & refreshed enough to continue. The wedgie riders all look & feel like they have had the crap beat out of them.

There have been times where a wedgie rider will say I need some carbs. to continue, or I need to rest for a while. I just smile & keep riding, not needing to stop except to eat at meal time, or to answer the call of nature. If I need to rest I just stop pedalling & rest while I keep moving on the bike.

I would say recumbents are faster in some applications, like head winds, down hills & flats with a good trail wind, but slower on uphills & evenly matched on flats with no or little tail wind.

That is a ratio of 3 to 1 of being faster over not between wedgies & 'bents & 1 for being even. I would say, yeah recumbents are faster. 3 to 1 is enough for me to keep riding mine.

It is unlikely thinner tires would be substantially faster, when the 1.5" tires are pumped to 100#. I have the same experience when riding with small groups of DF riders. If the hill is relatively short, say 50-200yds and not too steep I find it useful to 'charge the hill' and try to maintain a high cadence and speed
as long as possible before switching down. Once my speed drops below 11-12mph though, I am toast and just have to motor on while the DF riders catch up and pass me. Those hills that have a long gentle roll up kill just enough speed that this tactic fails and I am resigned to going up 2-3mph lower than the DF riders and trying to catch up later.
Steve

I don't know how much faster is substantially faster to you. But When I switched to the Continential tires this year, 120 psi, I am a lot faster then I was with my Primo's, only 100 psi. I have no problem with the Primo's. They are a great recumbent tire, I just wanted to try a higher pressure tire. Continential's are thinner then the Primo's. This plus the increase in psi helps increase my speed I think.

One season I got stupid I tried the Kenda Kwest for recumbents. This was when I was having a lot of crashes & thought a wider tire at the same psi would give me more stability. It did, but the tires did not last very long at all. The Kenda's at the time had very weak sidewalls I blew both the front & rear sidewalls out as a result. I went back to the Primo's & incidentially enough stopped crashing. I'll never try the Kenda's again.

Is there always this much trashing of "upright bikes" in the recumbent forum?

Easy there fellas, they're all just bikes.

If you can't take the heat, get out of the.... ;) jk.

Something you need to understand about recumbent riders is we are a unique bunch compared to wedgie riders. We have also "struggled" to be accepted by df riders as well. A recumbent set the world sp[eed record that has yet to be broken. But it is no longer recognized as such because some df traditionalist nazi group changed the rules that banned recumbents from official competition of such things. So now we have our competitions amoungst ourselves & damn what the wedgie groups think.

I have heard in some areas certain clubs only allow df bikes. As a result I have also heard because of this there have been 'bent only clubs that have formed. It happens.

When you hear or see the "ribbing" that 'bent riders do to wedgie riders some of it stems from bad feelings from the past. But it does not compare to what wedgie riders did or still do to 'bent riders.

Eyefloater, the only 'trashing' I saw of Safety Bikes prior to your post was one mention of "upwrong" bikes - which I take as merely a statement that they're wrong for many of us. Like several of us have noted, we suffer continual derision from a certain segment of the upright community who often don't even regard recumbents as true bicycles. So it's not surprising that we occasionally strike back. Limiting our calling them "upwrongs" or "wedgies" to this forum is a lot nicer than some Lance-wannabee telling me to my face that I should get a "real bike." Until more UCI-bike riders stop being bigoted, don't be surprised to see occasional backlashes in places like this.

Regarding the Canto: Stock chainrings according to the Burley site are 28/38/48. Combined with an 11T cassette gear, that yields a 109" high gear, which (you're right) is not low. Actually your 52/12 combination is slightly lower than stock at 108". My estimation of a Canto's speed potential is also based on the upright seat position and the fat tires. With skinny tires, the optional sprint braces, and the seat well reclined, you will be aerodymically close to an upright, depending on which position the upright rider is in. To paraphrase what akigreg wrote, most recumbents are not built to toast uprights, they're built for comfort with moderate speed. That describes the Canto. IMHO, anyone keeping up with roadies on a Canto should credit the motor as much as the bike.

Another issue: when I came screaming down a long hill I would overtake others at a big differential speed. Often this required me to swing wide left around other bikes to avoid them (not expecting me) -- and sometimes into the oncoming lane. This became a safety issue. I don't want to collide with someone at 40+ mph.

One little trick I have found that gives me back a bit of an advantage that the DF bikers have on a hill, that is, shifting their weight over the pedals that a bent driver cannot do.
This may not work on all bents, but I've found that the back of my seat ends about half way up my shoulder blades, and I often will fix myself to the upper edge of the seatback and arch my back to lift my butt off the seat which results in at least some of my weight transferred to the pedals.
I'm not strong enough to keep this up very long but it sure helps on a short steep climb after "charging the hill" or pulling out to pass someone on a hill.
Again, no insult intended to any upright bike riders. Guess I'm used to kidding back and forth with my upright cousins. When I tell them about my "Crazy Horse" method of riding my bent, they all say "Well, at least you got the name half right, don't call yourself Crazy Horse, just call yourself Crazy" (to ride a bent)

Interesting point. I've wondered how "fast" some bents may be set up. My canto has 52/42/30 front rings and 12-26 rear, so I wasn't thinking it was low geared. If I used the big ring on flats, I often pulled away from the group. And although the tires are 20x1.5 and 26x1.5, they are slick, and pretty hard at 100PSI.

Do faster bents have anything greater than those stats (thinner tires)?
FYI.. My trike came with the same front chainring setup as yours but the rear cogs are SRAM 11-34. This would give you a little more high speed and a lot better crawling gear for the steep's. Very economic upgrade. I use the 34/52 for most of my take-offs and be able to grab a higher gear quickly.

I didn't see this thought anywhere in this discussion, but I found the rest of the conversation quite interesting. Could it be that a bent is slower uphill due to the way one can "spin" on an upright that would suck you out of the seat of a bent? I ride a trike and have the same experiences stated here... Fast as he11 on the downs and even the straights and just can't keep up the pace on the uphills. What if you were to attach a "seatbelt", use the clip-ins, and "spin" up the hills? I normally ride with sandles or even flip flops, but the efficiency of spinning on a bent just doesn't seem to be there. I have to consciously "spin" and immediately notice that the drive-leg is having a much easier time of it. Maybe a hybrid wedgie/bent seat and clip-ins could resolve this? Just a thought :)

oh, and DBG... At 240 lbs... I coast faster on downhills than most of the club riders are peddling... Upright or Bent :p

Bents do go faster with seat inclines closer to horizontal. 30 degrees gives you excellent aerodynamics. The silly plastic bubbles on the nose makes this even better. You can easily surpass the aerodynamics of an upright with the right bent setup. That's 25-30MPH worth of wind resistance potential. All racing trikes are very layed back. Seen some 2-wheel racing bents that almost look like the road is scratching their backs. 40-50 degree seats are for comfort, not racing.

I still say bents are not designed for speed. I myself am MUCH faster on bents, but I'm also darned fast on an upright. I even usually pass most non-paceline uprights going uphill. But Bents are mainly designed with comfort in mind - not speed. I'm not saying they can't BE fast, but many aren't designed that way.


I disagree. I ride faster in head winds compared to my wedgie counterparts. I also pass wedgies on downhills. I am faster on flats with a good tail wind. On flats with no or little tail wind I'd say it is an even match. On uphills I am slower.

But at the end of say a 50 mile ride that had say 20 miles of it riding into head winds I still feel good & refreshed enough to continue. The wedgie riders all look & feel like they have had the crap beat out of them.

There have been times where a wedgie rider will say I need some carbs. to continue, or I need to rest for a while. I just smile & keep riding, not needing to stop except to eat at meal time, or to answer the call of nature. If I need to rest I just stop pedalling & rest while I keep moving on the bike.

I would say recumbents are faster in some applications, like head winds, down hills & flats with a good trail wind, but slower on uphills & evenly matched on flats with no or little tail wind.

That is a ratio of 3 to 1 of being faster over not between wedgies & 'bents & 1 for being even. I would say, yeah recumbents are faster. 3 to 1 is enough for me to keep riding mine.

FYI.. My trike came with the same front chainring setup as yours but the rear cogs are SRAM 11-34. This would give you a little more high speed and a lot better crawling gear for the steep's. Very economic upgrade. I use the 34/52 for most of my take-offs and be able to grab a higher gear quickly.

I double checked the rear cog set and discovered it is 11-32. (Front chainrings are still 52/42/30)

Having seen some of those sleek, low bents with the formed foam seats, I'd have to admit mine is more of a comfort-bike bent. (More so after I attached rear speakers to the trunk bag driven by an iPod nano mounted on the handlebars next to the GPS.)

...(More so after I attached rear speakers to the trunk bag driven by an iPod nano mounted on the handlebars next to the GPS.)

:beer: :roflmao:

I've followed this thread with some interest. Let me explain:

I'm a recovering clyde. My wife recently traded her EZ-Sport for a Bacchetta Cafe, and the kids and I all ride road bikes. I am the strongest rider because I ride more miles than the rest of the family. We've found that the most efficient order is for me to take lead, wife to ride second, 12 year old daughter next, then soon-to-be 15 year old son taking rear.

With the wife riding the EZ, I had to be very aware of building momentum on rides. with the Café, not so much. She's still a little slower to get situated leaving a red light, but once she's clipped in she moves out pretty well. It has presented a new hill curve for me in the front. I need to find the big ring sooner on downhill runs, and need to keep the speed up a little more on climbs because she's better able to keep up. Sometimes this approaches the point of pushing me up a hill. We work on it and if we communicate, we can ride together quite well without too much trouble.