Triathlon - wheels for TT

Just curious what the best setup for a TT bike. I have been thinking about getting a Hed tri front and a Renn rear disc. But someone mentioned that maybe I should get a front and rear tri. Any comments on this. Any other recommendations on wheels that I should look at. I really love the lineup that Zipp has, but they are a little out of my budget. I was looking at spending around $600 a wheel.

well the renn disk will be about $400(of memory), and the tri spoke about 600. That is arguably one of the best TT setups. Though it doesnt leave you alot of variability. Like if you do a TT that is more hilly then most, then you will suffer with the disk, and that is where you would be better on something like a zipp 404, or 606(zipp wheels used as a depth of the rims reference, not specificaly for Zipp).

I have a set of 404's and a renn disk. So I can cover pretty much anything, though the total setup cost me about $2000. so a bit out of your price range.

The double tri-spoke though is a decent setup, a bit heavier then a deep dish wheel, but lighter then a full disk.

The advice I was given, was get a set of 404's, and get a wheel cover for the rear(costs like $60 and is almost as good as a full disk, yet the wheel is still fairly light).

In the end it comes down to what you will be racing, and what you want. I wanted a disk so I got one....

So here are your options then;
-Tri-spoke/disk
-Double Tri-spoke
-Deep dish wheelset(404, 606, 808, ect)
-Deep dish wheelset with rear wheel cover

There are more options, those are the ones I can think of now..

"If i rode 700s, I'd get a set of rebadged Zipp 404s. The rim shape and depth are what make Zipps fast, hubs effect feel. Dimples effect your wallet.

Cane Creek Aros 58 can be had for $1200, they are approxiamately 150 grams heavier than Zipps but it's all at the hub, so the rotating weight won't effect the "feel" of the wheel that much. Another $450 for a Renn disc and you've got a wheelset for any course. You'll also spend less than a 606 wheelset costs. "


This is exactly what I told someone on another forum and I still stand by it. Start with the 404s, wait a year and then get a used disc if you think it'll be any faster for a few hundred dollars.

However, if you got the renn and he Hed3 you wouldn't be disappointed. I got to see a Hed3c this weekend and I was very impressed, I like the all carbon versus the aluminum rim, but the aluminum rim is good for braking.

Do you want to ride tubulars or clinchers?

I've been happy with my Zipp setup (404 front and 960 Disc rear) or Zipp Disc rear with a HED/Specialized front tri-spoke.

http://www.specclub.com/bernie/bernie_pix/bike/bernie_zipp1_thumb.JPG

http://www.specclub.com/bernie/bernie_pix/bike/bernie_zipp3_thumb.JPG

I bought all of my Zipp wheels and Tri-spoke off of eBay. I've spent less that $600 for all four wheels. However, I'm running 650c so I think that price and availability tend to be on the low end. I've been happy with the different setups. Let me know if you have any questions... I'll do what I can to help out.

Berns

"If i rode 700s, I'd get a set of rebadged Zipp 404s. The rim shape and depth are what make Zipps fast, hubs effect feel. Dimples effect your wallet.

Cane Creek Aros 58 can be had for $1200, they are approxiamately 150 grams heavier than Zipps but it's all at the hub, so the rotating weight won't effect the "feel" of the wheel that much. Another $450 for a Renn disc and you've got a wheelset for any course. You'll also spend less than a 606 wheelset costs. "

Do you want to ride tubulars or clinchers?

I want to ride tubulars in a 700c. Aren't the Zipp 404s quite expensive? I thought they were well over $1600?

Yeah, Zipp sells the 404 for 1600-1700 dollars. They are 58 mm rims made by Zipp, with dimples and Zipp hubs.

Zipp currently sells, non-dimpled 58mm rims to Ritchey, Cane Creek and some other manufacturers.

Cane Creek uses their hubs and spokes with the 58mm non-dimpled rim, which still has Zipp's proprietary shape, and the wheels can be found for $1100. Cane Creek's version of the wheel is 150 grams heavier, but it is in the hubs so it shouldn' have any effect on feel or speed of the wheels. They actually have the spoke nipples at the hub so rotating weight of their wheels may be better than Zipps.

http://aebike.com/page.cfm?PageID=30&action=details&sku=WE1620

The Zipp 404 rim is probably the most popular aero rim and it usually only loses in aerodynamic tests to the 808 and usually switches with the Hed 3, depending on the test and it's parameters(speed, angle, tires).

Below is a test from 2005 in which the Zipp 808 was first, and Ritchey WCS using Zipps 404(the same as the Aros 58 that I'm recommending) rim was second.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8684&start=0

This year, 2006, they didn't test the any wheel with a 404 rim against the Hed 3, but if you compare the numbers against 2005, the Ritcey WCS(i.e. Zipp) is faster at the first two yaw(much more real world conditions) and the Hed 3 wins at the most extreme yaw which would be rare to see on the bike

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17184&highlight=tour+aero+wheel+test

In the end, what I've just shown you is. You can get Zipp technology at your price. And that there isn't ahuge difference between Hed3s and Zipp 404 type wheels, but the ride is probably different and their both well proven.

I want to ride tubulars in a 700c. Aren't the Zipp 404s quite expensive? I thought they were well over $1600?

That's why Triguy is suggesting wheels using pre dimple Zipp rims - since clarified. These wheels include the The Cane Creek Aros 58 and the Ritchey WCS Carbon.

Other wheels worth considering are the Hed Stingers. These come in 50, 60 and 90mm rims around your budget. A little heavier than the Zipps but nice wheels.

Fastest combination will be deep front and disk rear. My preference is for a spoked wheel vs tri spoke as they are more readily serviceable (replace spokes, hubs etc).

Up until recently have been running Campagnolo Shamal 16 spoke front (41mm version) and Zipp 950 disk (even in windy races I find the disk faster and fine to handle than using the rear shamal). Just recently bought a front Hed Stinger 90 to go with the disk. The toriodal rims shape is comparable to the Zipp 808 (said to be more aero than a straight sided rim) and although not dimpled, due to it being 8mm deeper than the 808 - 82mm vs 90mm - should be comparable aerodynamically.

For disc vs Tri spoke weights -
Renn 575 Disk weighs 1120 for the 700c tubular.
Renn Madeira weighs 980g
Hed Trispoke alu braking 1000g

All pretty close and wont really be noticable...

Get a rear disk if you're doing flat tt's. The only negative about a disk is in crosswinds, where you'll get blown around slightly more than on a tri-spoke.

AFAIK wheel covers are being banned for next year. Does that really matter unless you are doing National Championship Elite races? Probably not.

Yeah, I was going to ask that, what the deal with them banning covers?

Yeah, I was going to ask that, what the deal with them banning covers?

Probably relating to UCI rule 1.3.024 (page 62)

Any device, added or blended into the structure, that is destined to decrease, or which has the effect
of decreasing, resistance to air penetration or artificially to accelerate propulsion, such as a protective
screen, fuselage form of fairing or the like, shall be prohibited.

A fairing shall be defined as the use or adaptation of a component of the bicycle in such a fashion
that it encloses a moving part of the bicycle such as the wheels or the chainset.

http://www.uci.ch/imgArchive/Rules/1gene-E.pdf

Though it appears more to cover fairing on the frame obscuring the wheel rather than a wheel cover...

I had a Zipp 909 rear disk and can say that it was a damn nice wheel, ridiculously light for a disk. My friend just got a Renn Madeira and it seems to be every bit as good as the Zipp but only cost $600. I think it weighs 90 grams more than the Zipp. Even on a hilly course I don't think light disks like these will hinder you much. We know that the optimum set up is a rear disk/front trispoke but compared to some 404's, Stingers or other deep dish wheels the difference isn't huge. Despite manufacturer hype we know that over a 40K the difference might be as little as 30 seconds, a minute tops.
I know a lot of guys who have the money to have both set ups, but obviously a set of deep dish somethings will be more versatile for all conditions.

Double tri spokes (what other wheel has airfoils designed by NASA), and if you're racing, get the aluminum rim. Having ridden several all carbon rims they just aren't ever as good as aluminum and when I hit the brakes I want to know what will happen beforehand rather than find out afterwards. The tri spoke on the front is the best and that's about all there is to that. A deep can be better in a few conditions but the handling is way worse, especially if there is a cross wind. A disc on the back is the best in MOST but not all conditions for aero (Note that Lance wasn't using a disc in the TT for the 05 TdF). Weight is always over stated. It's way less of an issue that aero and is usually equivalent to lighter tires or 1 less water bottle. Also, the Heds are a lot harder to break than the Zipps. As for aero, the guy who won the Lifetime Tri last year did it on double H3's.

The guy who had the fastest bike split at Lifetime this year by 1.5 minutes used a Zipp 999.

(Note that Lance wasn't using a disc in the TT for the 05 TdF).

Armstrong didn't use a disc in the final TT in 2005 because of some rather technical descending. Conversely Rassmussen did, and wrecked several times. It wasn't because the disc wouldn't have been faster. Rather it was a strategic decision to opt for a better handling bike for a technical course. And of course the disc is slower after you wreck with it a couple of times.

Tri guy's set up does give a lot of flexibility. Zipp 404's are good all around wheels, and can be ridden in all but the most brutal wind conditions. Zipp 404 front and disc rear is close to as fast as you get.
I used to TT with a Zipp 404 front and a HED disc rear. This year I added a Hed tri spoke front. I'm sure that the Hed is a little faster, but the difference is small enough, I can't really quantify it, considering other variables, like wind, my fitness, etc.

The tri spoke on the front is the best and that's about all there is to that.
Well, I guess we can pack up our wind tunnels and all go home now. For those who like some data mixed in with their opinions though, more and more data is coming out showing that when interactions with the fork are included, trispokes show higher drag than deep section rims. At this point, I'd say which is faster depends very much on the specifics of the case.

AFAIK wheel covers are being banned for next year.
Not really. UCI rules, which ban wheel covers, are already in effect for international selection events and setting National records. The only change for next year is that the rule will also cover NRC events. you can check the rules at the USCF website.

Well, I guess we can pack up our wind tunnels and all go home now. For those who like some data mixed in with their opinions though, more and more data is coming out showing that when interactions with the fork are included, trispokes show higher drag than deep section rims. At this point, I'd say which is faster depends very much on the specifics of the case.

For a little anecdotal evidence. My coach switched teams from one that was sponsered by Hed, to one sponsored by Zipp, so his TT set up went from a trispoke to an 808. He thought they were almost equivalent. Which is consistent with the windtunnel testing, which appears to indicate that they're very close, depending on the wind condition assumptions made.

Not really. UCI rules, which ban wheel covers, are already in effect for international selection events and setting National records. The only change for next year is that the rule will also cover NRC events. you can check the rules at the USCF website.

Ok Asgelle, I'm confused, I thought the application of UCI equipment rules to NRC events got rescended. Is that not the case? Or is just the wheel cover bit, and not the other stuff, like same size wheels, diamond frame, seat 5cm behind the bb?

Well, I guess we can pack up our wind tunnels and all go home now. For those who like some data mixed in with their opinions though, more and more data is coming out showing that when interactions with the fork are included, trispokes show higher drag than deep section rims. At this point, I'd say which is faster depends very much on the specifics of the case.


I've heard the same thing about fork interaction which is why a 404 is a safe bet.

After all of the great posts I have had some time to think it over and search out the different set up I could have. This is what I have come down to, so any help would be great.

1) Cane Creek Aros58 wheels, front and rear (~$1100) 1436g
2) Hed3C front with Renn 575 rear (~$1165) 1790g
3) Hed Stinger 60/90 front with Renn 575 rear ($975/1075) w/ 60: 1732g w/90: 1850g
4) Ritchey WCS Carbon front and rear ($1300) 1336g
5) Hed3c front and rear ($1370) 1500g

I looked at the threads on weight weenies from the tests of the 2005 and 2006 wheels. I wish they had done some tests of discs wheels so that I would get a better idea of how these different set ups would fair. This list is kinda extensive and covers a set of wheels for just about every condition when I look back on it. Currently I live in IL, so I don't have to worry about climbing now. But next year I plan on moving out to the Rockies or OR where I will have some hills to climb. Open for any advise.

http://www.aroadbike4u.com/inc/sdetail/729

I don't see tubulars, but those are damn fine wheels for $900.