carless
08-14-06, 11:07 PM
Poll for a slow day.
Living Car Free - #1 Barrier to Car Free
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tsl
08-15-06, 05:53 AM
I could only vote once, so I voted for infrastructure, but education is also as important to my way of thinking.
My thinking is mostly about parking at destinations. Other than elementary schools, there are only three bike racks in my part of town: The public library (try to imagine a library without one), the LBS (what a shock!) and one grocery store, but that's a front-wheel rack like the ones from the 50s, and it isn't even bolted down!
Education is required to help move the mindset from "Taking a bike ride"--a recreational activity, to "Going shopping or to work on a bike"--a destination. Bike lanes and MUPs are all well and good--I use and support them. But they don't change the public (and public officials') mindset from the leisure activity of "Taking a bike ride".
Case in point: In my city there's much publicity about a new $600,000 bike bridge being constructed over the river gorge. It's a great thing if you need to ride from a cemetary on the west side to a city park on the east side. But it does little to encourage riding to work, to the grocery store, or to small shops, restaurants, theaters or what have you. Imagine how many bike racks could be placed around the city for the same $600K!
Getting there is one thing. What to do with the bike when you get there is quite another. Until the second issue is addressed, the first one is unimportant.
My thinking is mostly about parking at destinations. Other than elementary schools, there are only three bike racks in my part of town: The public library (try to imagine a library without one), the LBS (what a shock!) and one grocery store, but that's a front-wheel rack like the ones from the 50s, and it isn't even bolted down!
Education is required to help move the mindset from "Taking a bike ride"--a recreational activity, to "Going shopping or to work on a bike"--a destination. Bike lanes and MUPs are all well and good--I use and support them. But they don't change the public (and public officials') mindset from the leisure activity of "Taking a bike ride".
Case in point: In my city there's much publicity about a new $600,000 bike bridge being constructed over the river gorge. It's a great thing if you need to ride from a cemetary on the west side to a city park on the east side. But it does little to encourage riding to work, to the grocery store, or to small shops, restaurants, theaters or what have you. Imagine how many bike racks could be placed around the city for the same $600K!
Getting there is one thing. What to do with the bike when you get there is quite another. Until the second issue is addressed, the first one is unimportant.
Nightshade
08-15-06, 07:04 AM
I live in an all rural county in the middle of Illinois farm country
with roads that are narrow two lane and narrower bridges.
Traffic makes any trip outside of the town I live in a suicide
attempt now. Illinois has done much to improve cycling in
the Chicago area but nothing downstate. That said, I'm forced
to remain "Car-Lite".:( :(
I'd be willing to bet that the lack of "bike friendly" infrastructure is the
most often mentioned reason for not riding a bike more often. It seems
that where bikes are more accomodated with lanes,paths etc. that folk's
feel safe enough to ride a LOT more often.
with roads that are narrow two lane and narrower bridges.
Traffic makes any trip outside of the town I live in a suicide
attempt now. Illinois has done much to improve cycling in
the Chicago area but nothing downstate. That said, I'm forced
to remain "Car-Lite".:( :(
I'd be willing to bet that the lack of "bike friendly" infrastructure is the
most often mentioned reason for not riding a bike more often. It seems
that where bikes are more accomodated with lanes,paths etc. that folk's
feel safe enough to ride a LOT more often.
Roody
08-15-06, 10:58 AM
carless--
Before I vote, could you please explain the last option: It's the car stupid (gas/car/road=taxes)
Before I vote, could you please explain the last option: It's the car stupid (gas/car/road=taxes)
chickPEA
08-15-06, 12:28 PM
I voted for education. If people are uneducated on the benefits of the bike as transportation how can you expect infrastructure to change towards what is needed. As tsl mentioned many areas put in bike paths that are for recreational purposes and don't really help those of us who use a bike to get around. Many of these paths don't lead to office complexes or downtown shoping areas. If people are educated about the bike as transportation then maybe towns will put in more bike lanes, racks, etc. rather than bike paths that lead to nowhere...
ctyler
08-15-06, 12:51 PM
I live in an all rural county in the middle of Illinois farm country
with roads that are narrow two lane and narrower bridges.
Traffic makes any trip outside of the town I live in a suicide
attempt now. Illinois has done much to improve cycling in
the Chicago area but nothing downstate. That said, I'm forced
to remain "Car-Lite".:( :(
I'd be willing to bet that the lack of "bike friendly" infrastructure is the
most often mentioned reason for not riding a bike more often. It seems
that where bikes are more accomodated with lanes,paths etc. that folk's
feel safe enough to ride a LOT more often.
Wow, I'm sorry to hear that. I live in southern Wisconsin and ride every day on the narrow two lane roads in farm country and never have a concern about traffic. What traffic there is give a wide berth when passing. Too bad Illinois driver are not as courteous.
with roads that are narrow two lane and narrower bridges.
Traffic makes any trip outside of the town I live in a suicide
attempt now. Illinois has done much to improve cycling in
the Chicago area but nothing downstate. That said, I'm forced
to remain "Car-Lite".:( :(
I'd be willing to bet that the lack of "bike friendly" infrastructure is the
most often mentioned reason for not riding a bike more often. It seems
that where bikes are more accomodated with lanes,paths etc. that folk's
feel safe enough to ride a LOT more often.
Wow, I'm sorry to hear that. I live in southern Wisconsin and ride every day on the narrow two lane roads in farm country and never have a concern about traffic. What traffic there is give a wide berth when passing. Too bad Illinois driver are not as courteous.
r8ingbull
08-15-06, 01:36 PM
Wow, I'm sorry to hear that. I live in southern Wisconsin and ride every day on the narrow two lane roads in farm country and never have a concern about traffic. What traffic there is give a wide berth when passing. Too bad Illinois driver are not as courteous.
I'd have to agree, 5 minutes ride gets me into "farm country". For transportation cycling you can't beat the nice straight grided roads. Also it's easy to avoid the state highways by using the backroads.
I'd have to agree, 5 minutes ride gets me into "farm country". For transportation cycling you can't beat the nice straight grided roads. Also it's easy to avoid the state highways by using the backroads.
bragi
08-15-06, 08:56 PM
I'd be willing to bet that the lack of "bike friendly" infrastructure is the
most often mentioned reason for not riding a bike more often. It seems
that where bikes are more accomodated with lanes,paths etc. that folk's
feel safe enough to ride a LOT more often.
I completely agree with this one.
most often mentioned reason for not riding a bike more often. It seems
that where bikes are more accomodated with lanes,paths etc. that folk's
feel safe enough to ride a LOT more often.
I completely agree with this one.
Roody
08-15-06, 09:07 PM
I finally voted for the last one, "it's the car stupid," even though I'm not sure what it means. I think most people who drive cars prefer cars to bikes. The only way they will switch to bikes is if they quit preferring cars. They will quit preferring cars when cars no longer make financial sense. That will happen when the cost of running them gets much higher, whether through gas taxes, carbon usage fees, or higher pump prices.
carless
08-15-06, 09:16 PM
carless--
Before I vote, could you please explain the last option: It's the car stupid (gas/car/road=taxes)
A dutch-like model of taxes on gas, taxes (VAT) on purchase, taxes on roads (europeans please correct me). In Oregon there is no sales tax, gas tax pays a diminishing amount for roads, and no toll roads.
Before I vote, could you please explain the last option: It's the car stupid (gas/car/road=taxes)
A dutch-like model of taxes on gas, taxes (VAT) on purchase, taxes on roads (europeans please correct me). In Oregon there is no sales tax, gas tax pays a diminishing amount for roads, and no toll roads.
carless
08-15-06, 09:24 PM
I voted for education. If people are uneducated on the benefits of the bike as transportation how can you expect infrastructure to change towards what is needed. As tsl mentioned many areas put in bike paths that are for recreational purposes and don't really help those of us who use a bike to get around. Many of these paths don't lead to office complexes or downtown shoping areas. If people are educated about the bike as transportation then maybe towns will put in more bike lanes, racks, etc. rather than bike paths that lead to nowhere...
"If you build it, they will come"? Works for roads, why not bikes.
"If you build it, they will come"? Works for roads, why not bikes.
carless
08-15-06, 09:39 PM
I could only vote once, so I voted for infrastructure, but education is also as important to my way of thinking.
My thinking is mostly about parking at destinations. Other than elementary schools, there are only three bike racks in my part of town: The public library (try to imagine a library without one), the LBS (what a shock!) and one grocery store, but that's a front-wheel rack like the ones from the 50s, and it isn't even bolted down!
Education is required to help move the mindset from "Taking a bike ride"--a recreational activity, to "Going shopping or to work on a bike"--a destination. Bike lanes and MUPs are all well and good--I use and support them. But they don't change the public (and public officials') mindset from the leisure activity of "Taking a bike ride".
Case in point: In my city there's much publicity about a new $600,000 bike bridge being constructed over the river gorge. It's a great thing if you need to ride from a cemetary on the west side to a city park on the east side. But it does little to encourage riding to work, to the grocery store, or to small shops, restaurants, theaters or what have you. Imagine how many bike racks could be placed around the city for the same $600K!
Getting there is one thing. What to do with the bike when you get there is quite another. Until the second issue is addressed, the first one is unimportant.
Bike racks are easy fixes but stores don't see the economic need for them. Chicken and egg, new shoppers/bikers with more racks or wait for demand.
My thinking is mostly about parking at destinations. Other than elementary schools, there are only three bike racks in my part of town: The public library (try to imagine a library without one), the LBS (what a shock!) and one grocery store, but that's a front-wheel rack like the ones from the 50s, and it isn't even bolted down!
Education is required to help move the mindset from "Taking a bike ride"--a recreational activity, to "Going shopping or to work on a bike"--a destination. Bike lanes and MUPs are all well and good--I use and support them. But they don't change the public (and public officials') mindset from the leisure activity of "Taking a bike ride".
Case in point: In my city there's much publicity about a new $600,000 bike bridge being constructed over the river gorge. It's a great thing if you need to ride from a cemetary on the west side to a city park on the east side. But it does little to encourage riding to work, to the grocery store, or to small shops, restaurants, theaters or what have you. Imagine how many bike racks could be placed around the city for the same $600K!
Getting there is one thing. What to do with the bike when you get there is quite another. Until the second issue is addressed, the first one is unimportant.
Bike racks are easy fixes but stores don't see the economic need for them. Chicken and egg, new shoppers/bikers with more racks or wait for demand.
pedex
08-15-06, 09:46 PM
fear would be my number one answer
jimmuter
08-16-06, 08:56 AM
There are a number of barriers that factor in. I think it's easier to list the conditions which must exist for a car-free lifestyle to be practical.
For example, if you have young kids or care for an elderly or disabled person, you'll need to live near an urban area or a suburban area which has a good public transportation system. You have more flexibility without children. If you live in a rural area or are without good public transportation, you need to be relatively healthy and still have amenities close enough to get to somehow without a car. Elderly people outside of major cities may be car-free but they rely on others to drive them around. If you live in NYC and you have a car, you're probably an idiot. In most other places in this country, there are very practical reasons for many to keep a car. The simpler you keep life (no kids, spouse or pets - live close to everything), and the longer you can stay young, the less necessary a car becomes. I'm sure I'll be regaled with anecdotal tales from folks about how they are 85 years old living in Podunk, USA and have never owned a car, but that's not common, nor will it likely be in my lifetime.
For example, if you have young kids or care for an elderly or disabled person, you'll need to live near an urban area or a suburban area which has a good public transportation system. You have more flexibility without children. If you live in a rural area or are without good public transportation, you need to be relatively healthy and still have amenities close enough to get to somehow without a car. Elderly people outside of major cities may be car-free but they rely on others to drive them around. If you live in NYC and you have a car, you're probably an idiot. In most other places in this country, there are very practical reasons for many to keep a car. The simpler you keep life (no kids, spouse or pets - live close to everything), and the longer you can stay young, the less necessary a car becomes. I'm sure I'll be regaled with anecdotal tales from folks about how they are 85 years old living in Podunk, USA and have never owned a car, but that's not common, nor will it likely be in my lifetime.
chickPEA
08-16-06, 09:32 AM
fear would be my number one answer
Educating people, particularly youngsters, about bicycle safety would help this... although not totally sovle it considering some of the drivers out there...
Educating people, particularly youngsters, about bicycle safety would help this... although not totally sovle it considering some of the drivers out there...
jeff-o
08-16-06, 10:50 AM
What about option #6? Too bad the cities can't do anything about it:
Weather (rain, sleet, snow, cold, ice, heat, humidity)
That's one of the reasons we're keeping at least one car. The other reasons are volumes of storage space in the trunk, and quick access to weekend vacation spots.
As far as getting more people to ride, it doesn't have much to do with the city. Rather, the entire nation-wide mindset needs to be changed, so that people accept cycling as an alternative to driving, despite the fact that it requires more effort, and takes more time (in some cases). Unfortunately, convenience and time are two things that few want to give up, now that they have it. So I vote, Social.
Weather (rain, sleet, snow, cold, ice, heat, humidity)
That's one of the reasons we're keeping at least one car. The other reasons are volumes of storage space in the trunk, and quick access to weekend vacation spots.
As far as getting more people to ride, it doesn't have much to do with the city. Rather, the entire nation-wide mindset needs to be changed, so that people accept cycling as an alternative to driving, despite the fact that it requires more effort, and takes more time (in some cases). Unfortunately, convenience and time are two things that few want to give up, now that they have it. So I vote, Social.
Nightshade
08-16-06, 10:57 AM
Wow, I'm sorry to hear that. I live in southern Wisconsin and ride every day on the narrow two lane roads in farm country and never have a concern about traffic. What traffic there is give a wide berth when passing. Too bad Illinois driver are not as courteous.
ILLINOIS publishes a set of maps that detail "bike friendly" roads for cyclist. I now have a set
that shows not one single road within 50 miles of my town listed as "bike friendly". On the
other hand there is wonderful canal trails that that are 17 miles away.........that you must
drive to to use!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: (I've never seen a cyclist on these trails as I pass by)
Most of the trails or roads are in the northern part of the state. :( :(
At the end of the day it's the "infrastructure" that keeps people in cars. Don't thinks so??
Then why is the rest of the world laid out to foster walking & cycling in both rural & urban
settings??
ILLINOIS publishes a set of maps that detail "bike friendly" roads for cyclist. I now have a set
that shows not one single road within 50 miles of my town listed as "bike friendly". On the
other hand there is wonderful canal trails that that are 17 miles away.........that you must
drive to to use!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: (I've never seen a cyclist on these trails as I pass by)
Most of the trails or roads are in the northern part of the state. :( :(
At the end of the day it's the "infrastructure" that keeps people in cars. Don't thinks so??
Then why is the rest of the world laid out to foster walking & cycling in both rural & urban
settings??
pedex
08-16-06, 03:34 PM
Educating people, particularly youngsters, about bicycle safety would help this... although not totally sovle it considering some of the drivers out there...
Actually I meant it in an all inclusive way, fear of being different, fear of change, fear of not being able to do certain things etc etc etc.
Actually I meant it in an all inclusive way, fear of being different, fear of change, fear of not being able to do certain things etc etc etc.
patc
08-16-06, 03:49 PM
I don't see any of the choices listed as a real barrier for LOCAL people to be car-free (in other words, the following is only an observation for my area). I would say, having spoken with a great many people here, the biggest barriers are self-created from poor life choices.
So in terms of priorities, then, I would see education as the key: both educating that living car-free is both possible and desirable, and educating people that today's choices impact tomorrow's options.
So in terms of priorities, then, I would see education as the key: both educating that living car-free is both possible and desirable, and educating people that today's choices impact tomorrow's options.
chickPEA
08-17-06, 08:05 AM
Actually I meant it in an all inclusive way, fear of being different, fear of change, fear of not being able to do certain things etc etc etc.
Ah, gotcha. Missunderstood...
Ah, gotcha. Missunderstood...
Bizurke
08-17-06, 10:33 AM
The roads where I live are horrible. Full of cracks, potholes, bumps, roots, glass, large debris, and all the fun stuff. There's only select roads I can ride smoothly on in this town. Most of the roads I have to spend a good deal of my time watching the road to make sure I don't hit something, get a flat, go splat on the pavement cause of a deep pothole, or slide out on some sand or gravel.
shishi
08-17-06, 01:31 PM
It is all about your attitude...period. If you want to do it, you'll do it.
kf5nd
08-17-06, 01:53 PM
none of the above
here it's the long distances, pure and simple
here it's the long distances, pure and simple
derath
08-18-06, 06:37 AM
None of the above for me either. For me it is that my work requires driving to clients on a regular basis. Many of which are outside the distances I could bike too (not to mention getting cleaned up when I arrived).
On the flipside, when I am not donig the above I am working from home. Even more efficient than commuting by any means.
-D
On the flipside, when I am not donig the above I am working from home. Even more efficient than commuting by any means.
-D
Roody
08-18-06, 10:11 AM
The roads where I live are horrible. Full of cracks, potholes, bumps, roots, glass, large debris, and all the fun stuff. There's only select roads I can ride smoothly on in this town. Most of the roads I have to spend a good deal of my time watching the road to make sure I don't hit something, get a flat, go splat on the pavement cause of a deep pothole, or slide out on some sand or gravel.
What kind of bike do you ride? What kind of tires?
I ride a mountain bike with 1.5inch slick tires. No road surfaces stop me, and I have the option of going off-road too. I can go anywhere a car can go, and many places a car could not go, such as dirt paths and muddy terrain.
What kind of bike do you ride? What kind of tires?
I ride a mountain bike with 1.5inch slick tires. No road surfaces stop me, and I have the option of going off-road too. I can go anywhere a car can go, and many places a car could not go, such as dirt paths and muddy terrain.
Turboem1
08-18-06, 04:25 PM
It's not exactly easy for a lot of people to go car free.
Like stated before you have to be in somewhat physical shape to get on a bike. That leaves out elderly people. If you have kids that need to be dropped off at school, soccer, baseball, footbal ect... you need a car. If you have to move anything large or heavy you need a car. This cuts out a lot of people. Plus the fact that riding a bike takes some movement and people dont really like that. Weather is another thing. Yes being an inshape male/female none of this seems to be a problem, ( I ride in the rain, snow, heat, ect but i cant see my mother doing that.) A bike is looked at as a leisure/extra toy and a car as a neccesity (not saying its true its just what people think).
For what its worth I am new to biking and a lot of things have crossed my mind so far as i read about what a lot of you post. I really respect a lot of you who are car free and lead these simple lives. I currently have 2 cars and a mountain bike. One car is a daily driver to get me to and from school. I dont bike because its a little far for me right now (20 miles each way) and i have about 40lbs of books in my car. My other car is a drag racing car with $15K+ into it and i have over $8K worth of tools. Cars have been my whole life so this is a real different lifestyle i am looking into. I love in the suburbs so i only use my car to get to and from school. I use my bike to get to and from work and the stores around here. My main problem with going full bike is places to keep your bike. I am paranoid when i go into stores.
Anyway just my .02.
Like stated before you have to be in somewhat physical shape to get on a bike. That leaves out elderly people. If you have kids that need to be dropped off at school, soccer, baseball, footbal ect... you need a car. If you have to move anything large or heavy you need a car. This cuts out a lot of people. Plus the fact that riding a bike takes some movement and people dont really like that. Weather is another thing. Yes being an inshape male/female none of this seems to be a problem, ( I ride in the rain, snow, heat, ect but i cant see my mother doing that.) A bike is looked at as a leisure/extra toy and a car as a neccesity (not saying its true its just what people think).
For what its worth I am new to biking and a lot of things have crossed my mind so far as i read about what a lot of you post. I really respect a lot of you who are car free and lead these simple lives. I currently have 2 cars and a mountain bike. One car is a daily driver to get me to and from school. I dont bike because its a little far for me right now (20 miles each way) and i have about 40lbs of books in my car. My other car is a drag racing car with $15K+ into it and i have over $8K worth of tools. Cars have been my whole life so this is a real different lifestyle i am looking into. I love in the suburbs so i only use my car to get to and from school. I use my bike to get to and from work and the stores around here. My main problem with going full bike is places to keep your bike. I am paranoid when i go into stores.
Anyway just my .02.
qmsdc15
08-18-06, 06:43 PM
I'm not car free by choice. I would most like to have a car so I could go skiing three days a week during the winter. Then I would be stong enough to ride four days a week all year 'round. Ideally I would live someplace like SLC where I could take a bus to the mountains. But I'm here and the little hills, great outdoor gyms for telemark, are 90 miles away. I rent a car or fly to better mountains farther away but I wish I could ski more.
carless
08-18-06, 07:21 PM
none of the above
here it's the long distances, pure and simple
What kind of distance? What is your level of fitness/bike smarts?
here it's the long distances, pure and simple
What kind of distance? What is your level of fitness/bike smarts?
carless
08-18-06, 07:33 PM
It's not exactly easy for a lot of people to go car free.
Like stated before you have to be in somewhat physical shape to get on a bike. That leaves out elderly people. If you have kids that need to be dropped off at school, soccer, baseball, footbal ect... you need a car. If you have to move anything large or heavy you need a car. This cuts out a lot of people. Plus the fact that riding a bike takes some movement and people dont really like that. Weather is another thing. Yes being an inshape male/female none of this seems to be a problem, ( I ride in the rain, snow, heat, ect but i cant see my mother doing that.) A bike is looked at as a leisure/extra toy and a car as a neccesity (not saying its true its just what people think).
For what its worth I am new to biking and a lot of things have crossed my mind so far as i read about what a lot of you post. I really respect a lot of you who are car free and lead these simple lives. I currently have 2 cars and a mountain bike. One car is a daily driver to get me to and from school. I dont bike because its a little far for me right now (20 miles each way) and i have about 40lbs of books in my car. My other car is a drag racing car with $15K+ into it and i have over $8K worth of tools. Cars have been my whole life so this is a real different lifestyle i am looking into. I love in the suburbs so i only use my car to get to and from school. I use my bike to get to and from work and the stores around here. My main problem with going full bike is places to keep your bike. I am paranoid when i go into stores.
Anyway just my .02.
Thanks for the post. The hardest part for me, personally was to be on a bike in public. What if somebody thought I had a drunk driving ticket, or I was homeless? You beat that, by actually doing it. A car is $400 a month, a bike can be $400 a lifetime.
Like stated before you have to be in somewhat physical shape to get on a bike. That leaves out elderly people. If you have kids that need to be dropped off at school, soccer, baseball, footbal ect... you need a car. If you have to move anything large or heavy you need a car. This cuts out a lot of people. Plus the fact that riding a bike takes some movement and people dont really like that. Weather is another thing. Yes being an inshape male/female none of this seems to be a problem, ( I ride in the rain, snow, heat, ect but i cant see my mother doing that.) A bike is looked at as a leisure/extra toy and a car as a neccesity (not saying its true its just what people think).
For what its worth I am new to biking and a lot of things have crossed my mind so far as i read about what a lot of you post. I really respect a lot of you who are car free and lead these simple lives. I currently have 2 cars and a mountain bike. One car is a daily driver to get me to and from school. I dont bike because its a little far for me right now (20 miles each way) and i have about 40lbs of books in my car. My other car is a drag racing car with $15K+ into it and i have over $8K worth of tools. Cars have been my whole life so this is a real different lifestyle i am looking into. I love in the suburbs so i only use my car to get to and from school. I use my bike to get to and from work and the stores around here. My main problem with going full bike is places to keep your bike. I am paranoid when i go into stores.
Anyway just my .02.
Thanks for the post. The hardest part for me, personally was to be on a bike in public. What if somebody thought I had a drunk driving ticket, or I was homeless? You beat that, by actually doing it. A car is $400 a month, a bike can be $400 a lifetime.
carless
08-18-06, 07:43 PM
What about option #6? Too bad the cities can't do anything about it:
Weather (rain, sleet, snow, cold, ice, heat, humidity)
That's one of the reasons we're keeping at least one car. The other reasons are volumes of storage space in the trunk, and quick access to weekend vacation spots.
As far as getting more people to ride, it doesn't have much to do with the city. Rather, the entire nation-wide mindset needs to be changed, so that people accept cycling as an alternative to driving, despite the fact that it requires more effort, and takes more time (in some cases). Unfortunately, convenience and time are two things that few want to give up, now that they have it. So I vote, Social.
Candians are deep, eh? I should point out I voted with my feet to Eugene, OR. My lawyer, co-workers and family ride bikes and cars. There is hope for change.
Weather (rain, sleet, snow, cold, ice, heat, humidity)
That's one of the reasons we're keeping at least one car. The other reasons are volumes of storage space in the trunk, and quick access to weekend vacation spots.
As far as getting more people to ride, it doesn't have much to do with the city. Rather, the entire nation-wide mindset needs to be changed, so that people accept cycling as an alternative to driving, despite the fact that it requires more effort, and takes more time (in some cases). Unfortunately, convenience and time are two things that few want to give up, now that they have it. So I vote, Social.
Candians are deep, eh? I should point out I voted with my feet to Eugene, OR. My lawyer, co-workers and family ride bikes and cars. There is hope for change.
carless
08-18-06, 08:13 PM
For example, if you have young kids or care for an elderly or disabled person, you'll need to live near an urban area or a suburban area which has a good public transportation system.
You have more flexibility without children.
If you live in a rural area or are without good public transportation, you need to be relatively healthy and still have amenities close enough to get to somehow without a car.
Elderly people outside of major cities may be car-free but they rely on others to drive them around.
If you live in NYC and you have a car, you're probably an idiot.
In most other places in this country, there are very practical reasons for many to keep a car.
The simpler you keep life (no kids, spouse or pets - live close to everything), and the longer you can stay young, the less necessary a car becomes.
I'm sure I'll be regaled with anecdotal tales from folks about how they are 85 years old living in Podunk, USA and have never owned a car, but that's not common, nor will it likely be in my lifetime.
In order, and with due respect:
-elderly people and young kids can ride depending on the person, not the age.
-rural areas can be great places to live, and bike
-children are not a transportation issue. They live longer, healthier and enjoy better-than-backseat rides.
-Health and age are subjective and can change, I'm an old dog.
-NYC is great.
-There are seemingly practical reasons for everything, rationalizations.
-Simplicity is great, youth is fleeting, and not verified with a DMV license.
-Youth is relative, cycling is forever.
-Tales: a guy on a group ride goes 12mph, fumbles his Look clipless pedals and has his light pointed way up. This goes on for 13 miles, and I'm riding sweep. He is 84 and somebody helps him off his road bike.
My main point is youth or geography is challenging, but not impossible. You make choices and this works for me.
You have more flexibility without children.
If you live in a rural area or are without good public transportation, you need to be relatively healthy and still have amenities close enough to get to somehow without a car.
Elderly people outside of major cities may be car-free but they rely on others to drive them around.
If you live in NYC and you have a car, you're probably an idiot.
In most other places in this country, there are very practical reasons for many to keep a car.
The simpler you keep life (no kids, spouse or pets - live close to everything), and the longer you can stay young, the less necessary a car becomes.
I'm sure I'll be regaled with anecdotal tales from folks about how they are 85 years old living in Podunk, USA and have never owned a car, but that's not common, nor will it likely be in my lifetime.
In order, and with due respect:
-elderly people and young kids can ride depending on the person, not the age.
-rural areas can be great places to live, and bike
-children are not a transportation issue. They live longer, healthier and enjoy better-than-backseat rides.
-Health and age are subjective and can change, I'm an old dog.
-NYC is great.
-There are seemingly practical reasons for everything, rationalizations.
-Simplicity is great, youth is fleeting, and not verified with a DMV license.
-Youth is relative, cycling is forever.
-Tales: a guy on a group ride goes 12mph, fumbles his Look clipless pedals and has his light pointed way up. This goes on for 13 miles, and I'm riding sweep. He is 84 and somebody helps him off his road bike.
My main point is youth or geography is challenging, but not impossible. You make choices and this works for me.
Roody
08-19-06, 12:24 PM
It's not exactly easy for a lot of people to go car free.
Like stated before you have to be in somewhat physical shape to get on a bike. That leaves out elderly people. If you have kids that need to be dropped off at school, soccer, baseball, footbal ect... you need a car. If you have to move anything large or heavy you need a car. This cuts out a lot of people. Plus the fact that riding a bike takes some movement and people dont really like that. Weather is another thing. Yes being an inshape male/female none of this seems to be a problem, ( I ride in the rain, snow, heat, ect but i cant see my mother doing that.) A bike is looked at as a leisure/extra toy and a car as a neccesity (not saying its true its just what people think).
For what its worth I am new to biking and a lot of things have crossed my mind so far as i read about what a lot of you post. I really respect a lot of you who are car free and lead these simple lives. I currently have 2 cars and a mountain bike. One car is a daily driver to get me to and from school. I dont bike because its a little far for me right now (20 miles each way) and i have about 40lbs of books in my car. My other car is a drag racing car with $15K+ into it and i have over $8K worth of tools. Cars have been my whole life so this is a real different lifestyle i am looking into. I love in the suburbs so i only use my car to get to and from school. I use my bike to get to and from work and the stores around here. My main problem with going full bike is places to keep your bike. I am paranoid when i go into stores.
Anyway just my .02.
Welcome to the forum! Your automobile inspired user name makes me wonder if you are really interested in being carfree. Hoping that you are being sincere, I'll donate a few minutes of my time to giving you a sincere and friendly response:
You're certainly right that it's difficult for many people to ride more and be carfree. But if you read some of the stuff here, you'll soon learn that many more people could ride an be carfree--i that's what they want and they're willing to give up some of their preconceptions.
I think that one reason many middle-aged and older people are out of shape is because they rely too heavily on their cars. My father's neighbor is 76 and he rides across several entire states every year. I'm 51, I ride everywhere, every day through the Michigan seasons, and I'm in great shape. However, I was in terrible shape when I first started riding!
People carry tremendous loads on their bikes too, without straining themselves at all. For instance, with the proper equipment you--and probably even your mother--could easily carry 40 pounds of books on a bike. (Look into threads here about racks, bags, panniers, baskets, Xbikes and trailers.) Also we discuss other options for moving heavy stuff like delivery services and car rental, etc.
As for theft, there have been many threads here and on the other forums about locking systems. In fact, Bikeforums really came to fame when the problems with some highly regarded locks were first exposed here a few years ago. Another thing is that many of us have a so-called beater bike that wouldn't cause too much loss if it were stolen. These bikes are inexpensive, unattractive to most thieves, but very rideable and practical.
A bike is looked at as a leisure/extra toy and a car as a neccesity (not saying its true its just what people think).
I think this is a big part of the problem. Stick around here and you will soon see that while a bike is a great toy, it is also very much more than that!
Like stated before you have to be in somewhat physical shape to get on a bike. That leaves out elderly people. If you have kids that need to be dropped off at school, soccer, baseball, footbal ect... you need a car. If you have to move anything large or heavy you need a car. This cuts out a lot of people. Plus the fact that riding a bike takes some movement and people dont really like that. Weather is another thing. Yes being an inshape male/female none of this seems to be a problem, ( I ride in the rain, snow, heat, ect but i cant see my mother doing that.) A bike is looked at as a leisure/extra toy and a car as a neccesity (not saying its true its just what people think).
For what its worth I am new to biking and a lot of things have crossed my mind so far as i read about what a lot of you post. I really respect a lot of you who are car free and lead these simple lives. I currently have 2 cars and a mountain bike. One car is a daily driver to get me to and from school. I dont bike because its a little far for me right now (20 miles each way) and i have about 40lbs of books in my car. My other car is a drag racing car with $15K+ into it and i have over $8K worth of tools. Cars have been my whole life so this is a real different lifestyle i am looking into. I love in the suburbs so i only use my car to get to and from school. I use my bike to get to and from work and the stores around here. My main problem with going full bike is places to keep your bike. I am paranoid when i go into stores.
Anyway just my .02.
Welcome to the forum! Your automobile inspired user name makes me wonder if you are really interested in being carfree. Hoping that you are being sincere, I'll donate a few minutes of my time to giving you a sincere and friendly response:
You're certainly right that it's difficult for many people to ride more and be carfree. But if you read some of the stuff here, you'll soon learn that many more people could ride an be carfree--i that's what they want and they're willing to give up some of their preconceptions.
I think that one reason many middle-aged and older people are out of shape is because they rely too heavily on their cars. My father's neighbor is 76 and he rides across several entire states every year. I'm 51, I ride everywhere, every day through the Michigan seasons, and I'm in great shape. However, I was in terrible shape when I first started riding!
People carry tremendous loads on their bikes too, without straining themselves at all. For instance, with the proper equipment you--and probably even your mother--could easily carry 40 pounds of books on a bike. (Look into threads here about racks, bags, panniers, baskets, Xbikes and trailers.) Also we discuss other options for moving heavy stuff like delivery services and car rental, etc.
As for theft, there have been many threads here and on the other forums about locking systems. In fact, Bikeforums really came to fame when the problems with some highly regarded locks were first exposed here a few years ago. Another thing is that many of us have a so-called beater bike that wouldn't cause too much loss if it were stolen. These bikes are inexpensive, unattractive to most thieves, but very rideable and practical.
A bike is looked at as a leisure/extra toy and a car as a neccesity (not saying its true its just what people think).
I think this is a big part of the problem. Stick around here and you will soon see that while a bike is a great toy, it is also very much more than that!
Turboem1
08-19-06, 04:58 PM
Welcome to the forum! Your automobile inspired user name makes me wonder if you are really interested in being carfree. Hoping that you are being sincere, I'll donate a few minutes of my time to giving you a sincere and friendly response:
You're certainly right that it's difficult for many people to ride more and be carfree. But if you read some of the stuff here, you'll soon learn that many more people could ride an be carfree--i that's what they want and they're willing to give up some of their preconceptions.
I think that one reason many middle-aged and older people are out of shape is because they rely too heavily on their cars. My father's neighbor is 76 and he rides across several entire states every year. I'm 51, I ride everywhere, every day through the Michigan seasons, and I'm in great shape. However, I was in terrible shape when I first started riding!
People carry tremendous loads on their bikes too, without straining themselves at all. For instance, with the proper equipment you--and probably even your mother--could easily carry 40 pounds of books on a bike. (Look into threads here about racks, bags, panniers, baskets, Xbikes and trailers.) Also we discuss other options for moving heavy stuff like delivery services and car rental, etc.
As for theft, there have been many threads here and on the other forums about locking systems. In fact, Bikeforums really came to fame when the problems with some highly regarded locks were first exposed here a few years ago. Another thing is that many of us have a so-called beater bike that wouldn't cause too much loss if it were stolen. These bikes are inexpensive, unattractive to most thieves, but very rideable and practical.
I think this is a big part of the problem. Stick around here and you will soon see that while a bike is a great toy, it is also very much more than that!
I am not sure if it came across as I am wanting to go car free but it has really caught my attention and i am looking into it. Yes I do have an auto inspired name but I am not really creative enough to think of something for the bike forum:) so I kept it the same as what I use on the auto forums.
I am definately sincere in what I said. Many of the things I read here are a real shock (i cant think of the correct word now) and really get me thinking about the way I live my life. I would love to live a very simple life with only necessities (as i hate clutter). If I really tried I could go car free. It is something I am considering now. I would keep a car as a backup just incase as I am still new to this though.
I also agree that many people cant ride in their current condition because they never rode before or any time recently.
I have to agree with whoever said before that when riding around town (not on a road bike in flashy clothes) people look at you like theres something different. For example they think "Did he crash his car?", "Get it taken away (liscense suspension, revoked, or DWI/DUI)?, "Is he a bum or poor?". I feel like people look down on those with a bike, especially if you have a lot of gear on it, like its your mobile home. It really is wrong society is like that but thats how it is. It is viewed as a backup form of transportation when your not "lucky" enough to drive a car which is not true.
You're certainly right that it's difficult for many people to ride more and be carfree. But if you read some of the stuff here, you'll soon learn that many more people could ride an be carfree--i that's what they want and they're willing to give up some of their preconceptions.
I think that one reason many middle-aged and older people are out of shape is because they rely too heavily on their cars. My father's neighbor is 76 and he rides across several entire states every year. I'm 51, I ride everywhere, every day through the Michigan seasons, and I'm in great shape. However, I was in terrible shape when I first started riding!
People carry tremendous loads on their bikes too, without straining themselves at all. For instance, with the proper equipment you--and probably even your mother--could easily carry 40 pounds of books on a bike. (Look into threads here about racks, bags, panniers, baskets, Xbikes and trailers.) Also we discuss other options for moving heavy stuff like delivery services and car rental, etc.
As for theft, there have been many threads here and on the other forums about locking systems. In fact, Bikeforums really came to fame when the problems with some highly regarded locks were first exposed here a few years ago. Another thing is that many of us have a so-called beater bike that wouldn't cause too much loss if it were stolen. These bikes are inexpensive, unattractive to most thieves, but very rideable and practical.
I think this is a big part of the problem. Stick around here and you will soon see that while a bike is a great toy, it is also very much more than that!
I am not sure if it came across as I am wanting to go car free but it has really caught my attention and i am looking into it. Yes I do have an auto inspired name but I am not really creative enough to think of something for the bike forum:) so I kept it the same as what I use on the auto forums.
I am definately sincere in what I said. Many of the things I read here are a real shock (i cant think of the correct word now) and really get me thinking about the way I live my life. I would love to live a very simple life with only necessities (as i hate clutter). If I really tried I could go car free. It is something I am considering now. I would keep a car as a backup just incase as I am still new to this though.
I also agree that many people cant ride in their current condition because they never rode before or any time recently.
I have to agree with whoever said before that when riding around town (not on a road bike in flashy clothes) people look at you like theres something different. For example they think "Did he crash his car?", "Get it taken away (liscense suspension, revoked, or DWI/DUI)?, "Is he a bum or poor?". I feel like people look down on those with a bike, especially if you have a lot of gear on it, like its your mobile home. It really is wrong society is like that but thats how it is. It is viewed as a backup form of transportation when your not "lucky" enough to drive a car which is not true.
Platy
08-19-06, 05:33 PM
I have to agree with whoever said before that when riding around town (not on a road bike in flashy clothes) people look at you like theres something different. For example they think "Did he crash his car?", "Get it taken away (liscense suspension, revoked, or DWI/DUI)?, "Is he a bum or poor?". I feel like people look down on those with a bike, especially if you have a lot of gear on it, like its your mobile home. It really is wrong society is like that but thats how it is. It is viewed as a backup form of transportation when your not "lucky" enough to drive a car which is not true.
That perception exists. Sometimes you'll come up alongside a car in traffic and hear the power locks click shut, ha. The "outcast" feeling soon passes, though. If it helps, in the beginning you can think of yourself as engaging in a fact-finding research project.
That perception exists. Sometimes you'll come up alongside a car in traffic and hear the power locks click shut, ha. The "outcast" feeling soon passes, though. If it helps, in the beginning you can think of yourself as engaging in a fact-finding research project.
mister
08-19-06, 09:49 PM
For me, the biggest barrier to being car free is urban sprawl. When I graduated college in May, I lost my job at the same time since I was employed on campus and one of the conditions was that you had to be a student. I had another job lined up, but it fell through so I moved in with my parents.
The city is so spread out that it makes living car lite difficult, especially in the summer when it's 100+ for long periods of time and shade is virtually non-existant in the desert. The nearest shopping center is only 5 miles away. If you want to get into "town" it's 10 miles of narrow roads that desperately need to be improved, construction, SUVs driven soccer moms on their cell phones, trucks driven by guys who think there manly-ness is determined by how high their truck is, how big the tires are, and how loud the stereo and exhaust are, and the folks who have no regard for the safety of cyclists and buzz you at 70mph. Not to mention that once you get to the central area, bike racks don't exist and if they do, they're in a place where nobody would notice a thief if they used a chain saw (assuming it's possible) to steal a bike.
The city is so spread out that it makes living car lite difficult, especially in the summer when it's 100+ for long periods of time and shade is virtually non-existant in the desert. The nearest shopping center is only 5 miles away. If you want to get into "town" it's 10 miles of narrow roads that desperately need to be improved, construction, SUVs driven soccer moms on their cell phones, trucks driven by guys who think there manly-ness is determined by how high their truck is, how big the tires are, and how loud the stereo and exhaust are, and the folks who have no regard for the safety of cyclists and buzz you at 70mph. Not to mention that once you get to the central area, bike racks don't exist and if they do, they're in a place where nobody would notice a thief if they used a chain saw (assuming it's possible) to steal a bike.
cyclezealot
08-19-06, 10:56 PM
Travel to some bike friendly city. It's the road and physical facilities that bring out the bikes.
patc
08-20-06, 09:28 AM
The city is so spread out that it makes living car lite difficult, especially in the summer when it's 100+ for long periods of time and shade is virtually non-existant in the desert. The nearest shopping center is only 5 miles away. If you want to get into "town" it's 10 miles of narrow roads...
Then move. No, I'm not trying to be an ass. The objections to being car-free I hear most often from people are directly caused by their life choices. "I live in the suburbs", for example, or "I live 100 miles from work", or "I have 5 kids and 3 dogs", etc.
You just graduated from college. Now is a great time to consider your life choices. Make a list of what you want, where you want to live, etc. Then figure out what cities (or parts of cities) offer that to you, and apply to job in those areas. Your first job may not fit that plan, or even the second or third. Life is about compromise. But if you have a plan in the first place and try to get as close to it as possible with each life choice, you eventually end up living pretty much how you want to live.
There are exactly two cities in Canada that I am willing to live in for a long period of time. I live in one now, I plan to retire in the other. Its all about the choices you make today.
Then move. No, I'm not trying to be an ass. The objections to being car-free I hear most often from people are directly caused by their life choices. "I live in the suburbs", for example, or "I live 100 miles from work", or "I have 5 kids and 3 dogs", etc.
You just graduated from college. Now is a great time to consider your life choices. Make a list of what you want, where you want to live, etc. Then figure out what cities (or parts of cities) offer that to you, and apply to job in those areas. Your first job may not fit that plan, or even the second or third. Life is about compromise. But if you have a plan in the first place and try to get as close to it as possible with each life choice, you eventually end up living pretty much how you want to live.
There are exactly two cities in Canada that I am willing to live in for a long period of time. I live in one now, I plan to retire in the other. Its all about the choices you make today.
gwd
08-20-06, 10:16 AM
Then move. No, I'm not trying to be an ass. The objections to being car-free I hear most often from people are directly caused by their life choices. "I live in the suburbs", for example, or "I live 100 miles from work", or "I have 5 kids and 3 dogs", etc.
You just graduated from college. Now is a great time to consider your life choices. Make a list of what you want, where you want to live, etc. Then figure out what cities (or parts of cities) offer that to you, and apply to job in those areas. Your first job may not fit that plan, or even the second or third. Life is about compromise. But if you have a plan in the first place and try to get as close to it as possible with each life choice, you eventually end up living pretty much how you want to live.
There are exactly two cities in Canada that I am willing to live in for a long period of time. I live in one now, I plan to retire in the other. Its all about the choices you make today.
Yes.
Even if you are currently car dependent, each decision can be a step toward or away from car free, just keep choosing the "toward" path and you'll keep getting closer. "The long march began with the first step."
Sometimes the reasons people give aren't even valid. Last night I met a car free mother of two. We were chit chatting about where we live. I told her I get around by bike and mentioned that she lived in a great area for getting places by bike. She told me she isn't in good enough shape for that. Then the music started. She danced for hours. She was still going when I left at 1 am. She certainly has the stamina to bike. I suspect she has other mis impressions about bikes as transportation.
You just graduated from college. Now is a great time to consider your life choices. Make a list of what you want, where you want to live, etc. Then figure out what cities (or parts of cities) offer that to you, and apply to job in those areas. Your first job may not fit that plan, or even the second or third. Life is about compromise. But if you have a plan in the first place and try to get as close to it as possible with each life choice, you eventually end up living pretty much how you want to live.
There are exactly two cities in Canada that I am willing to live in for a long period of time. I live in one now, I plan to retire in the other. Its all about the choices you make today.
Yes.
Even if you are currently car dependent, each decision can be a step toward or away from car free, just keep choosing the "toward" path and you'll keep getting closer. "The long march began with the first step."
Sometimes the reasons people give aren't even valid. Last night I met a car free mother of two. We were chit chatting about where we live. I told her I get around by bike and mentioned that she lived in a great area for getting places by bike. She told me she isn't in good enough shape for that. Then the music started. She danced for hours. She was still going when I left at 1 am. She certainly has the stamina to bike. I suspect she has other mis impressions about bikes as transportation.
mister
08-20-06, 09:44 PM
Believe me, moving has been getting considered more and more and I have been looking at cities where working and living car free/ lite are plausible. I'll tell you though, the application process to be a police officer is not easy if you're trying to be car free :lol:.
Then move. No, I'm not trying to be an ass. The objections to being car-free I hear most often from people are directly caused by their life choices. "I live in the suburbs", for example, or "I live 100 miles from work", or "I have 5 kids and 3 dogs", etc.
You just graduated from college. Now is a great time to consider your life choices. Make a list of what you want, where you want to live, etc. Then figure out what cities (or parts of cities) offer that to you, and apply to job in those areas. Your first job may not fit that plan, or even the second or third. Life is about compromise. But if you have a plan in the first place and try to get as close to it as possible with each life choice, you eventually end up living pretty much how you want to live.
There are exactly two cities in Canada that I am willing to live in for a long period of time. I live in one now, I plan to retire in the other. Its all about the choices you make today.
Then move. No, I'm not trying to be an ass. The objections to being car-free I hear most often from people are directly caused by their life choices. "I live in the suburbs", for example, or "I live 100 miles from work", or "I have 5 kids and 3 dogs", etc.
You just graduated from college. Now is a great time to consider your life choices. Make a list of what you want, where you want to live, etc. Then figure out what cities (or parts of cities) offer that to you, and apply to job in those areas. Your first job may not fit that plan, or even the second or third. Life is about compromise. But if you have a plan in the first place and try to get as close to it as possible with each life choice, you eventually end up living pretty much how you want to live.
There are exactly two cities in Canada that I am willing to live in for a long period of time. I live in one now, I plan to retire in the other. Its all about the choices you make today.
patc
08-21-06, 10:11 AM
Believe me, moving has been getting considered more and more and I have been looking at cities where working and living car free/ lite are plausible. I'll tell you though, the application process to be a police officer is not easy if you're trying to be car free :lol:.
Why? It should be irrelevant. You do need a driver's license, but the department supplies the patrol cars - you, as an individual, are still car-free since you do not own a motor vehicle for personal use.
Mind you, you could also apply for a bike patrol job. Our police force is hiring about 1000 new officers this year.
Why? It should be irrelevant. You do need a driver's license, but the department supplies the patrol cars - you, as an individual, are still car-free since you do not own a motor vehicle for personal use.
Mind you, you could also apply for a bike patrol job. Our police force is hiring about 1000 new officers this year.
Roody
08-21-06, 10:58 AM
I have to agree with whoever said before that when riding around town (not on a road bike in flashy clothes) people look at you like theres something different. For example they think "Did he crash his car?", "Get it taken away (liscense suspension, revoked, or DWI/DUI)?, "Is he a bum or poor?". I feel like people look down on those with a bike, especially if you have a lot of gear on it, like its your mobile home. It really is wrong society is like that but thats how it is. It is viewed as a backup form of transportation when your not "lucky" enough to drive a car which is not true.
I doubt if you will get this attitude from anybody who knows you. And who cares what a bunch of judgmental strangers think? You have to decide what is best for you and the hell with what a bunch of morons think.
I doubt if you will get this attitude from anybody who knows you. And who cares what a bunch of judgmental strangers think? You have to decide what is best for you and the hell with what a bunch of morons think.
oilfreeandhappy
08-21-06, 01:37 PM
Infrastructure - Rail Connection to Denver's RTD and Light Rail system. Heck, I'd even settle for a commuter bus. Currently there's one bus - a Greyhound that leave at 11:30 pm.