Professional Cycling - Some words from and about Bobke

Thought you guys might enjoy this thread that's on 50+ forum http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=218955

It deals with Bob Roll and some of his thoughts about the TdF, Floyd, etc. Go here for a recent, 20 minute Bob Roll interview done at the Tour of Utah (last week). It's quite interesting. http://kcpw.org/article/1457

OHB

Bob Roll is way off base. His main concern is Trek and their profits. If the French framed Landis and Armstrong, they would be shooting themselves and their beloved race and sport in the foot. Long after the particular names are forgotten, the taint on the sport will remain. It's absurd they would do this. American winners will just make the eventual win by a european all the sweeter. You don't kill the sport in order to punish one of many, many countries who enter and appreciate it.

I have yet to read or hear of paranoia by the Europeans that Vino, Basso and Ullrich were banned from the race so a second tier American rider could win. I guess conspiracy theories are American homegrown inventions.

Bob Roll is way off base. His main concern is Trek and their profits. If the French framed Landis and Armstrong, they would be shooting themselves and their beloved race and sport in the foot. Long after the particular names are forgotten, the taint on the sport will remain. It's absurd they would do this. American winners will just make the eventual win by a european all the sweeter. You don't kill the sport in order to punish one of many, many countries who enter and appreciate it.

I have yet to read or hear of paranoia by the Europeans that Vino, Basso and Ullrich were banned from the race so a second tier American rider could win. I guess conspiracy theories are American homegrown inventions.


Interesting point. I can't argue with you, but then again, Bob's been there and done that... I can't, however, agree that Landis is a "second tier rider," at least not this season.

Interesting point. I can't argue with you, but then again, Bob's been there and done that... I can't, however, agree that Landis is a "second tier rider," at least not this season.


Well, we'll never know because he wasn't given the opportunity to compete against the four top favorites going into the tour. Landis' other victories came in the U.S. where he did not compete against the top European riders. I was actually paraphrasing Pereiro's comments that this year's tour was a competition among second tier riders. This may have been out of respect for his teammate, Valverde.

Landis' other victories came in the U.S. where he did not compete against the top European riders.
Paris-Nice was held in the U.S.? :rolleyes:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/mar06/parisnice06/?id=results/parisnice067



Stage 7 - March 12: Nice - Nice, 135 km
A new American hero

By Jean-François Quénet in Nice
Floyd Landis (Phonak)
Photo ©: AFP (Click for larger image)

The last stage of Paris-Nice has definitely introduced Floyd Landis (Phonak) as Lance Armstrong's possible successor at the Tour de France. Despite a crash, he has controlled the situation while Marcus Zberg (Gerolsteiner) signaled his return after five years without any win.
...
Final General classification

1 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems 31.54.41
2 Patxi Xabier Vila Errandonea (Spa) Lampre-Fondital 0.09
3 Antonio Colom (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 1.05
4 Samuel Sanchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 1.13
5 Frank Schleck (Lux) Team CSC 1.22
6 José Azevedo (Por) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 1.35
7 Erik Dekker (Ned) Rabobank 1.38
8 Pietro Caucchioli (Ita) Credit Agricole 1.39
9 José Luis Rubiera (Spa) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 1.40
10 Christopher Horner (USA) Davitamon-Lotto 1.43
11 Evgeni Petrov (Rus) Lampre-Fondital 3.16
12 Sandy Casar (Fra) Française des Jeux 3.25
13 Luis Sanchez (Spa) Liberty Seguros-Würth Team 3.30
14 Joost Posthuma (Ned) Rabobank 3.51
15 Sylvain Chavanel (Fra) Cofidis, le Credit par Telephone 3.56
16 Matteo Carrara (Ita) Lampre-Fondital 4.00
17 Haimar Zubeldia (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 4.08
18 Cyril Dessel (Fra) AG2R Prevoyance 4.13
19 Thomas Lövkvist (Swe) Française des Jeux 4.22
20 Dmitriy Fofonov (Kaz) Credit Agricole 4.30

Well, we'll never know because he wasn't given the opportunity to compete against the four top favorites going into the tour. Landis' other victories came in the U.S. where he did not compete against the top European riders. I was actually paraphrasing Pereiro's comments that this year's tour was a competition among second tier riders. This may have been out of respect for his teammate, Valverde.


Exactly. Landis didn't beat, nor was he competitive with the top tier of riders. This year's Tour was wonderful and enjoyable, but it was a competition among 2nd tier riders.

This may be a really naieve question...but does anyone have an answer for the question of how he tested positive only one day? Also, if he were doping, wouldn't he be doing a course of roids or something? I mean, a one day hit isn't gonna do you any good is it?


Sorry if these are dumb questions---i don't know a whole lot about doping and I am just really confused by some of the allegations.

This may be a really naieve question...but does anyone have an answer for the question of how he tested positive only one day? Also, if he were doping, wouldn't he be doing a course of roids or something? I mean, a one day hit isn't gonna do you any good is it?


Sorry if these are dumb questions---i don't know a whole lot about doping and I am just really confused by some of the allegations.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=2911945&postcount=666

Ahhhh----thank you---that helps clarify some things.

If it is so painful and needs to be timed just right, I am assuming there is some large corresponding physical advantage to being injected with that amount of testosterone? otherwise, why the risk?

Ahhhh----thank you---that helps clarify some things.

If it is so painful and needs to be timed just right, I am assuming there is some large corresponding physical advantage to being injected with that amount of testosterone? otherwise, why the risk?

Actually, no. I still haven't figured what a cyclist has to gain from a single injection of testosterone.

Paris-Nice was held in the U.S.? :rolleyes:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/mar06/parisnice06/?id=results/parisnice067



Stage 7 - March 12: Nice - Nice, 135 km
A new American hero

By Jean-François Quénet in Nice
Floyd Landis (Phonak)
Photo ©: AFP (Click for larger image)

The last stage of Paris-Nice has definitely introduced Floyd Landis (Phonak) as Lance Armstrong's possible successor at the Tour de France. Despite a crash, he has controlled the situation while Marcus Zberg (Gerolsteiner) signaled his return after five years without any win.
...
Final General classification

1 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems 31.54.41
2 Patxi Xabier Vila Errandonea (Spa) Lampre-Fondital 0.09
3 Antonio Colom (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 1.05
4 Samuel Sanchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 1.13
5 Frank Schleck (Lux) Team CSC 1.22
6 José Azevedo (Por) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 1.35
7 Erik Dekker (Ned) Rabobank 1.38
8 Pietro Caucchioli (Ita) Credit Agricole 1.39
9 José Luis Rubiera (Spa) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 1.40
10 Christopher Horner (USA) Davitamon-Lotto 1.43
11 Evgeni Petrov (Rus) Lampre-Fondital 3.16
12 Sandy Casar (Fra) Française des Jeux 3.25
13 Luis Sanchez (Spa) Liberty Seguros-Würth Team 3.30
14 Joost Posthuma (Ned) Rabobank 3.51
15 Sylvain Chavanel (Fra) Cofidis, le Credit par Telephone 3.56
16 Matteo Carrara (Ita) Lampre-Fondital 4.00
17 Haimar Zubeldia (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 4.08
18 Cyril Dessel (Fra) AG2R Prevoyance 4.13
19 Thomas Lövkvist (Swe) Française des Jeux 4.22
20 Dmitriy Fofonov (Kaz) Credit Agricole 4.30


I don't see the names of Basso, Ullrich, Valverde, or Vinokourov on that list. For that matter, I don't see Pereiro, Kloden, Menchov, Sastre or even Hincapie. This was a race among 10th tier riders! Landis kicked butt! Very impressive.

Ahhhh----thank you---that helps clarify some things.

If it is so painful and needs to be timed just right, I am assuming there is some large corresponding physical advantage to being injected with that amount of testosterone? otherwise, why the risk?

It wasn't an injection, it was a patch. Many riders put them on for recovery purposes.

It wasn't an injection, it was a patch. Many riders put them on for recovery purposes.

Baloney...definitely not a patch. Each patch is about 5-6mg of testosterone. Considering not even 50% (probably closer to 25%) of it gets absorbed into the skin even before you factor in what gets lost from sweat. You could make a pair of those full-body long john undies out of testosterone patches and I doubt you'd test positive.

Well, we'll never know because he wasn't given the opportunity to compete against the four top favorites going into the tour. Landis' other victories came in the U.S. where he did not compete against the top European riders. I was actually paraphrasing Pereiro's comments that this year's tour was a competition among second tier riders. This may have been out of respect for his teammate, Valverde.

What sort of respect is Valverde going to be accorded? What is his tdf record? Please answer, I'd like to learn.

What sort of respect is Valverde going to be accorded? What is his tdf record? Please answer, I'd like to learn.

In 2005 Valverde won the 10th stage of the Tour de France ahead of Lance Armstrong, whom he beat in the sprint into Courchevel in the Alps, 2000m - 1st Category. After Stage 12, he was in 5th place on GC, 3 minutes and 16 seconds behind Lance Armstrong. He was also leading in the Young Rider Classification (white jersey), with a 3 minute and 9 second lead on Armstrong teammate Yaroslav Popovych. However, Valverde was forced to withdraw from the Tour during the 13th stage because of a knee injury.

He is also currently leading the ProTour rankings (even with his Tour win, Landis is in second place).

Valverde was considered a top four favorite for the tour.

After Basso and Ullrich were sent home, Vinokourov and Valverde were considered the favorites. Later, Vino was also sent home.

Velo News:

Bookies react quickly to Tour scandal
Valverde, Vinokourov emerge as favorites
This report filed June 30, 2006
Internet odds makers quickly reacted to Friday's news that top riders Ivan Basso (CSC), Jan Ullrich (T-Mobile) and Francisco Mancebo (Ag2r) have been excluded from the Tour de France by their respective teams after being named as suspects in the ongoing Spanish doping investigation, known as Operación Puerto.

Liège-Bastogne-Liège winner, Alejandro Valverde (Caisse d'Épargne-Illes Balears) and Astaná-Würth's Alexandre Vinokourov emerged as the two favorites, given odds of seven-to-two to wear the yellow jersey into Paris on July 23.

Valverde is considered the favorite for the upcoming Vuelta and Pereiro will be riding in support of him.

In 2005 Valverde won the 10th stage of the Tour de France ahead of Lance Armstrong, whom he beat in the sprint into Courchevel in the Alps, 2000m - 1st Category. After Stage 12, he was in 5th place on GC, 3 minutes and 16 seconds behind Lance Armstrong. He was also leading in the Young Rider Classification (white jersey), with a 3 minute and 9 second lead on Armstrong teammate Yaroslav Popovych. However, Valverde was forced to withdraw from the Tour during the 13th stage because of a knee injury.

He is also currently leading the ProTour rankings (even with his Tour win, Landis is in second place).

Valverde was considered a top four favorite for the tour.

So the answer to my question is that a guy with basically the same tdf record as Popovych (except that Popovych has completed more tours in the same number of entries) is a tour favorite?

Oh, OK.

So the answer to my question is that a guy with basically the same tdf record as Popovych (except that Popovych has completed more tours in the same number of entries) is a tour favorite?

Oh, OK.

Popovych was fifth place in GC? Popovych was the oddsmakers' top favorite for the 2006 tour? Is Popovych the current favorite for next week's Vuelta? Is Popovych leading the entire world in ProTour points? LOL!

The only thing they had in common last year was they were both young riders. Period.

Baloney...definitely not a patch. Each patch is about 5-6mg of testosterone. Considering not even 50% (probably closer to 25%) of it gets absorbed into the skin even before you factor in what gets lost from sweat. You could make a pair of those full-body long john undies out of testosterone patches and I doubt you'd test positive.

Which is why is was such a boneheaded blunder. He used to much. He's not the first cyclist to get caught using testosterone. His teammate failed a testosterone test months before Landis did and there have been many more before them.

Velonews PRE-TOUR interview with cycling doctor:

German doctor Kurt Moosburger, who has looked after Jörg Jaksche (among others) for the past two years, has told dpa that he believes that performance enhancing drugs are "indispensable" for high level cycling
In a frank interview, Moosburger pointed to the average speeds of modern professional races, especially hard tours. "The average in last year's Tour was 41 kilometres per hour - that is incredible. You can do a hard Alpine stage without doping. But after that, the muscles are exhausted. You need - depending on your training conditions - up to three days in order to regenerate."
To help recover, testosterone and human growth hormone can be used. "Both are made by the body and are therefore natural substances," he said. "They help to build muscle as well as in muscle recovery."
Dr Moosburger explained how it was done. "You put a standard testosterone patch that is used for male hormone replacement therapy on your scrotum and leave it there for about six hours. The small dose is not sufficient to produce a positive urine result in the doping test, but the body actually recovers faster."

Velonews interview with pro cyclist:

Manzano: ‘Testosterone effects almost immediate'
Jesús Manzano, the ex-pro who revealed insider details of doping in a series of paid interviews two years ago, said that testosterone can be taken during competition and its effects can be felt "almost immediately."
In an article with his byline in the Spanish daily AS, Manzano outlined the way riders can take testosterone during a competition, undercutting the argument that testosterone is a substance taken over weeks and months to slowly build strength and resistance.
Manzano's interviews helped draw attention to controversial Spanish doctor Eufemiano Fuentes, who is now at the center of an ongoing doping investigation in Spain.
"Its effects are felt almost immediately," Manzano wrote. "It gives you a lot of force and produces a sort of euphoria."
Manzano outlined three ways to take testosterone during a competition.
First are patches, called AndroGel, which are applied during a light massage usually during the evening mealtime. Manzano said the patches had to be used less than two hours to not risk going above the T/E ratio threshold and risking a positive doping test. Manzano also said clandestine suppositories are used as well as intravenous injections, called Rastandol, taking about 20 minutes to 1 hour before competition.
Another option are pills of Andriol, called "beans" in the cycling underworld - or "Ferrari's jellybeans" by some - but these usually take several days to kick in and he said it's not likely riders would use them during competition.

Popovych was fifth place in GC? Popovych was the oddsmakers' top favorite for the 2006 tour? Is Popovych the current favorite for next week's Vuelta? Is Popovych leading the entire world in ProTour points? LOL!

The only thing they had in common last year was they were both young riders. Period.

My question is what was Valverdes tdf record, can you at least try and stay on the topics you bring up and realize what an idiotic comment that was?

Stop parroting crap you don't even understand.

Which is why is was such a boneheaded blunder. He used to much. He's not the first cyclist to get caught using testosterone. His teammate failed a testosterone test months before Landis did and there have been many more before them.

Velonews PRE-TOUR interview with cycling doctor:

German doctor Kurt Moosburger, who has looked after Jörg Jaksche (among others) for the past two years, has told dpa that he believes that performance enhancing drugs are "indispensable" for high level cycling
In a frank interview, Moosburger pointed to the average speeds of modern professional races, especially hard tours. "The average in last year's Tour was 41 kilometres per hour - that is incredible. You can do a hard Alpine stage without doping. But after that, the muscles are exhausted. You need - depending on your training conditions - up to three days in order to regenerate."
To help recover, testosterone and human growth hormone can be used. "Both are made by the body and are therefore natural substances," he said. "They help to build muscle as well as in muscle recovery."
Dr Moosburger explained how it was done. "You put a standard testosterone patch that is used for male hormone replacement therapy on your scrotum and leave it there for about six hours. The small dose is not sufficient to produce a positive urine result in the doping test, but the body actually recovers faster."

Velonews interview with pro cyclist:

Manzano: ‘Testosterone effects almost immediate'
Jesús Manzano, the ex-pro who revealed insider details of doping in a series of paid interviews two years ago, said that testosterone can be taken during competition and its effects can be felt "almost immediately."
In an article with his byline in the Spanish daily AS, Manzano outlined the way riders can take testosterone during a competition, undercutting the argument that testosterone is a substance taken over weeks and months to slowly build strength and resistance.
Manzano's interviews helped draw attention to controversial Spanish doctor Eufemiano Fuentes, who is now at the center of an ongoing doping investigation in Spain.
"Its effects are felt almost immediately," Manzano wrote. "It gives you a lot of force and produces a sort of euphoria."
Manzano outlined three ways to take testosterone during a competition.
First are patches, called AndroGel, which are applied during a light massage usually during the evening mealtime. Manzano said the patches had to be used less than two hours to not risk going above the T/E ratio threshold and risking a positive doping test. Manzano also said clandestine suppositories are used as well as intravenous injections, called Rastandol, taking about 20 minutes to 1 hour before competition.
Another option are pills of Andriol, called "beans" in the cycling underworld - or "Ferrari's jellybeans" by some - but these usually take several days to kick in and he said it's not likely riders would use them during competition.

great post!

I don't see the names of Basso, Ullrich, Valverde, or Vinokourov on that list. For that matter, I don't see Pereiro, Kloden, Menchov, Sastre or even Hincapie. This was a race among 10th tier riders! Landis kicked butt! Very impressive.

None of those guys were in shape in the Spring (save Hinacapie who was riding classics). Not the fault of Floyd Landis that Ully was enjoying cake with his Epo in March.

My question is what was Valverdes tdf record, can you at least try and stay on the topics you bring up and realize what an idiotic comment that was?

Stop parroting crap you don't even understand.

Given the fact that there were no proven favorites racing in this Tour with the possible exception of Kloden it was far from unreasonable to mention Valverde as a possible winner. How he would have fared with multiple days in the mountains we cannot say. But basing an evaluation on the past tour record of riders when there are very few proven podium finishers in the race (Kloden) misses the point of a balanced approach for picking future winners in a wild card year. My guess is that Valverde would not have fared well and would have lost big time on one or more of the days, but you never know. Probably he would have been a bit tired from a long spring campaign and we would have seen him far from his best. Certainly he is a huge talent and a possible winner in the future. I'm sure he will be fun to watch in the Vuelta.

I really enjoyed Popos stage win. He attacked what, five times in the last few Ks? The guy just wouldn't quit.

Finally, make an effort to be civil, won't ya'll? :rolleyes:

Finally, make an effort to be civil, won't ya'll? :rolleyes:

I am tired of trying, my bad, and I am actually sorry. The stats put forth as proof tell me that he was no favorite after all. Yes, it was up for grabs.

As far as odds goes, the odds just balance the gamblers money against any huge payout, and gamblers aren't all that smart, as proof of that I point you to the fact they gamble.