Lurkers: You people are crazy...

[carless]

Post your thoughts.
Are you afraid?
Did you get here by Google or Yahoo! and found out that other people;
-Don't think cupholder placement (and numbers) are important
-Realize you can slide by traffic... full time
-Wear regular clothes and work next to you
-Save $400 a month
-Like going to work or the store
-Men: swap love handles for happy trails
-Women: think thighmaster and dancing
Hey we are eccentric but, uhm, fairly happy and mostly flame-free

[-=£em in Pa=-]

I would think that like me, most people still do own cars
despite thier best efforts not to drive them. I wish I was
car-free and make every effort I can to not have to drive
mine, but still I find myself in it for about 3,000 miles a year.
Mostly put on in huge chunks from interstate road trips though.
In otherwards, people who still own cars might think it is inappropriate
to post in a car-free forum.

[knoregs]

On my ride today I rode by an intersection where traffic coming out of the side road was coming from a ferry crossing... lots of commuter traffic as it was around 5pm... I decided for fun to count the number of cars with multiple passengers vs. the number of cars with just the driver... needless to say I became quite discouraged very quickly... the solo driver outnumbered the multi-passenger autos 20 to 1... of the multi-passenger autos I saw, I'm quite sure most were tourists... all those people heading the same way... what a shame

[fordfasterr]

If you keep your car parked for months at a time, you can have your insurance " freeze " your coverage.. ie:

Your car is covered while it is parked at your house.
You will get the entire monthly payment credited back to you at the end of your contract for each month the car was " on hold " ...

I found out about this from Allstate......

=)

Good luck !!!!!!

[dauphin]

I don't think it's inappropriate to post here...car or not. All in all, I would rather be riding my bike. It's just not completely possible right now.

[ryanparrish]

When I get a couple more peices to my commuter gear like lights and reflective vest I will not be using a car much anymore. When I need to go to get groceries at night I either ride to my parents to pick up a car or I get a ride to the store I have a trailer and I am not to fond of but it works and my lights barely pierce the country night

[Gojohnnygo.]

Yes I'm a lurker I'm a bit crazy to :D (Well that’s what the locals tell me). I find that it helps when riding with the local traffic.

I got rid of the Pontiac a year and half ago. I do use a taxi$$$ or rural local bus during big snowstorms, the bus only runs twice a day which sucks. So far I'm at 453 days with out sitting a car. I'm on a roll if this winter goes by with little snow. I'll be heading for 2 years of being truly carfree.


Johnny

[Roody]

I don't think it's inappropriate to post here...car or not. All in all, I would rather be riding my bike. It's just not completely possible right now.
What is it that makes it impossible for you to be carfree right now?

If you want to be carfree, but something is stopping you, maybe you could start a thread herre to get information and encouragement. For example, if you find it impossible to be carfree because you are concerned about riding at night, you could start a thread called, "I need help with night riding" or somethng to that effect.

We live in a world that is set up for cars, and most people on this forum realize that not everybody can be carfree at this time. But we're also aware that many problems that seem insurmountable can actualy be solved with a little know-how and planning.

[Roody]

When I get a couple more peices to my commuter gear like lights and reflective vest I will not be using a car much anymore. When I need to go to get groceries at night I either ride to my parents to pick up a car or I get a ride to the store I have a trailer and I am not to fond of but it works and my lights barely pierce the country night
The Commuter subforum is the ultimate source of knowledge on bicycle lighting. They have a couple stickies that deal with this, and many many threads.

[ellenDSD]

What is it that makes it impossible for you to be carfree right now?

If you want to be carfree, but something is stopping you, maybe you could start a thread herre to get information and encouragement. For example, if you find it impossible to be carfree because you are concerned about riding at night, you could start a thread called, "I need help with night riding" or somethng to that effect.

We live in a world that is set up for cars, and most people on this forum realize that not everybody can be carfree at this time. But we're also aware that many problems that seem insurmountable can actualy be solved with a little know-how and planning.

That's a good point, Roody.

Not to shock the forum but we are currently a two car family. We used to have 3 but progress is being made. Granted we don't often drive our cars; This week I drove my car twice. Once because I needed something (ironically for my bike) in the neighboring town and again to take my son on some errands that we typically would have ridden our bikes for but we had a 75 mile ride the next day and I didn't want to wear us out. My son, by the way, is 10 and he did 45 of those 75 miles. I am so proud!! :D

I would love to go down to one car but I am going to really work to talk my husband into it. In time perhaps. Wish me luck :)

But my point to all this running of the mouth is that my attitude is one of being carfree. I more often than not opt for my bike and leave the car for when I think I really need it.

[Caspar_s]

ellenDSD, I think the emphasis should be on not using your car needlessly, rather than not having one. If you live in a place where you don't need it like NYC, or the parking, insurance, payments etc make it unwise, then that is a good reason to go carfree.

If you live in a more rural area, with no intercity transport, and not too many local services, or have children, or have a hobby that you need better transport than a bike, by all means have a car.

It is the inter city trips that need to be discouraged. I have seen someone drive across a parking lot because the coffee shop they came into was full, and the other one on the other side was all of 100 feet away. If all or most of the commuting traffic, shopping traffic etc was done by bike and cars were used for transporting larger items or travelling further, then there would be less traffic congestion.

Cya

[Roody]

ellenDSD, I think the emphasis should be on not using your car needlessly, rather than not having one. If you live in a place where you don't need it like NYC, or the parking, insurance, payments etc make it unwise, then that is a good reason to go carfree.

If you live in a more rural area, with no intercity transport, and not too many local services, or have children, or have a hobby that you need better transport than a bike, by all means have a car.

It is the inter city trips that need to be discouraged. I have seen someone drive across a parking lot because the coffee shop they came into was full, and the other one on the other side was all of 100 feet away. If all or most of the commuting traffic, shopping traffic etc was done by bike and cars were used for transporting larger items or travelling further, then there would be less traffic congestion.

Cya
I agree with much of what you say, but I have to disagree strongly with the first paragraph. The city I live in couldn't be much different from NYC, but I find it to be an excellent location for carfree living. Successful carfree people on this forum live in large cities, medium and small ones, suburbs and rural areas too. Even a couple in Alaska!

Each location presents its own challenges and opportunities. For example, a medium city, like the one I live in, has most destinations located within 5 or 10 miles of a central location, and traffic is lighter. On the down side, public transit is less convenient (although still quite good) and you can feel pretty lonely as a carfree person and as a utility cyclist.

[gerv]

What is it that makes it impossible for you to be carfree right now?

Like quite a few posters here, I have a car in the driveway. One neat thing about this forum (and the Commuter forum as well..) is that I get lots of encouragement to go for long periods of time without starting it up. A while back, I would have thought this impossible. Nowadays, I'm beginning to see that it is, indeed, possible.

One thing that really concerns me is that if the climatologists are correct [and I suspect they are..], we absolutely have to find a way to make it possible. It's all fine for us to sit around and wait for the government or industry to come up with whiz-bang solutions to reduce global warming, but when it comes down to it, we as individuals need to make this "car free" possible.

[Wogsterca]

I would think that like me, most people still do own cars
despite thier best efforts not to drive them. I wish I was
car-free and make every effort I can to not have to drive
mine, but still I find myself in it for about 3,000 miles a year.
Mostly put on in huge chunks from interstate road trips though.
In otherwards, people who still own cars might think it is inappropriate
to post in a car-free forum.

Like you, I do own a car, unlike most North Americans, I share a single car with my wife, we do drive more then I would like, we have been car free in the past, the longest period was almost a year. Biking works for me, but my wife isn't a bike person right now, anyone has any hints on how to turn a non biking spouse into a cyclist, let me know! I can commute by bike, but my bike isn't set up for it, at the moment, needs a rack, fenders and road tires, that will happen in the off season this year.

For people who are car free though, they can offer hints and advice to those who are not there yet:D

[I-Like-To-Bike]

For people who are car free though, they can offer hints and advice to those who are not there yet:D
The most consistant advice from those posters who actually are car free appears to be: have no dependents and don't venture any further than you can go by bicycle or public transportation. A willingnesss to use other's access to vehicles is a plus.

[KrisPistofferson]

What's ironic is I once got a warning from a mod for directing a negative comment at I-L-T-B. :D

[I-Like-To-Bike]

What's ironic is I once got a warning from a mod for directing a negative comment at I-L-T-B. :D
Nothing ironic at all. You were being a ---- and were called on it. If you find anything incorrect or negative about my previous comment, state what it is instead of sly innuendo that you may think is clever but is just so much hot air.

I've read the postings of those who claim to be car-free on this forum and with only one or two exceptions, my description of their status (no current dependents requiring daily reliable transportation) is accurate. It also is the key, along with location, and associated access to reliable public transportation, to the practicality of living car free in most of the US.

[fordfasterr]

One of the biggest steps to becoming car free is to stop being lazy.

lol

In many cases, my car was my "lazyness enabler". Hopefully now that I am selling my car to my friend, things will change and I will be forced to use the bike more often.....

[Platy]

...I've read the postings of those who claim to be car-free on this forum and with only one or two exceptions, my description of their status (no current dependents requiring daily reliable transportation) is accurate. It also is the key, along with location, and associated access to reliable public transportation, to the practicality of living car free in most of the US.
I'd say that's an accurate summary. There are many people who enjoy that combination of favorable circumstances.

[carless]

Nothing ironic at all. You were being a ---- and were called on it. If you find anything incorrect or negative about my previous comment, state what it is instead of sly innuendo that you may think is clever but is just so much hot air.

I've read the postings of those who claim to be car-free on this forum and with only one or two exceptions, my description of their status (no current dependents requiring daily reliable transportation) is accurate. It also is the key, along with location, and associated access to reliable public transportation, to the practicality of living car free in most of the US.

This was a thread about people who don't post, but realize they have an option to driving. Some people thought they were "disqualified" by using a car to post. The truth is if you don't use a car in an auto-based society it's hard. It does get easier, and it's rewarding. But use our experience and learn about other riders success.
There are no rules for being car-free, and certaintly the conditions you mention make it less challenging. But you have grouped riders together and pronouced a result: you need these things to do it. That might be the case in your town, at this moment. Offer a helpful suggestion, find an interesting web link, or start a thread about your views concerning people who ride instead of drive.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

This was a thread about people who don't post, but realize they have an option to driving.
Thanks for the clarification of the OP. To tell the truth I couldn't figure out what the intent was of the OP, or what point you were trying to make.

[KrisPistofferson]

I can dish it out, but I cry to the mods when I'm on the recieving end.Gotcha.

[pedex]

I'd say that's an accurate summary. There are many people who enjoy that combination of favorable circumstances.

Isnt hard to seek out and put oneself in a postion to enjoy those circumstances either.

[anitra]

Back on topic... I'm a lurker; my husband and I each own a car. We recently moved closer to our jobs, close enough to bike! An eventual goal is to get us down to a one-car family; primarily for use on weekends.

[Jerseysbest]

I just graduated and my first (entry level) job is 45 miles a way. I was hoping to be practically car-free, but rent is just outragious near my work, and even though I could afford a place (or room), I decided I'd rather live at home, save some money and eventually buy something, or find a job outside the area in some place less expensive (anywhere but NJ, NYC, and CA).

My car gets 35mpg and I usually do all the maintence and repairs, so right now driving a car and living at home are the only sure way to save a substantial amount of money.

[DataJunkie]

I rarely post and qualify more as a lurker.
This forum is useful for me as a car lite person.
However, I detest the attitude that several posters display about car lite being almost equivalent to having 2 cars. It's quite silly if you ask me.
All in all I prefer to avoid forums that belittle me. Excessive egos relating to ones lifestyle also annoy me.

[Platy]

I rarely post and qualify more as a lurker.
This forum is useful for me as a car lite person.
However, I detest the attitude that several posters display about car lite being almost equivalent to having 2 cars. It's quite silly if you ask me.
All in all I prefer to avoid forums that belittle me. Excessive egos relating to ones lifestyle also annoy me.
Stick around. Your presence improves the place. This is the liveliest carfree discussion anywhere on the Internet.

[DataJunkie]

Thanks :)

Most of the car free suggestions are applicable to the car lite members.
My wife is less than excited about not having a car. Consequently, we are car lite.

[bdinger]

I'm "car lite" and have had nothing but good comments on my choice. I keep my pickup around because it's paid for, and I use it for a number of reasons. I can't do the stuff I do for the local county EMA on a bike. Well, I could, but the hail would be painful, and outrunning a oncoming twister might not happen. ;)

It's all about the "car-free" attitude. Even if you aren't car-free, in my mind, as long as you are working to conserve you may as well be car-free.

[mwrobe1]

This forum is useful for me as a car lite person.
However, I detest the attitude that several posters display about car lite being almost equivalent to having 2 cars. It's quite silly if you ask me.
All in all I prefer to avoid forums that belittle me. Excessive egos relating to ones lifestyle also annoy me.
+1

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Isnt hard to seek out and put oneself in a postion to enjoy those circumstances either.
That's right. Dump, desert and/or never have any family responsibilities and make sure there is only number #1 to take care of.

[pedex]

That's right. Dump, desert and/or never have any family responsibilities and make sure there is only number #1 to take care of.

Having a family and being car free are hardly mutually exclusive, people do it all the time. I have schools, hospitals,3 colleges, grocery shopping, jobs, and decent housing all in a very small area, anyone here can easily do it. The rest is just excuses. Then again, given the nature of the world right now, just how responsible is it to have children? no answer needed, its a rhetorical question

[Platy]

That's right. Dump, desert and/or never have any family responsibilities and make sure there is only number #1 to take care of.
What is the minimum number of children you consider acceptable? Should people start families at around age 18 or is it acceptable for them to wait a while? Do you think it is immoral or antisocial for people to simply decide to remain unmarried or childfree? Is birth control unacceptable in your opinon?

[Blue Order]

That's right. Dump, desert and/or never have any family responsibilities and make sure there is only number #1 to take care of.Haven't you forgotten a few? There's also getting dumped, being deserted, not finding somebody who wants a family... Then like taxes, there's death. None of these situations add up to "making sure there is only #1 to take care of."

Once we get through those possibilities, there's nothing that makes being car-free and having a family mutually exclusive, at least where I live. Of course, meeting somebody who doesn't equate car-ownership with having your act together is a different matter, but the actual logistics don't make it mutually exclusive.

[Platy]

Haven't you forgotten a few? There's also getting dumped... [and] death...

Been both places. Got the t-shirt. Sucks.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

What is the minimum number of children you consider acceptable? Should people start families at around age 18 or is it acceptable for them to wait a while? Do you think it is immoral or antisocial for people to simply decide to remain unmarried or childfree? Is birth control unacceptable in your opinon?
You totally miss the point which is that those who preach how easy or practical it is to be car-free almost to a man/woman are without any dependents and apparantly don't have a clue about or any empathy for those who don't share their single/childless urban simple lifestyle.

[cranky]

I'm pretty much a lurker here because I am car-lite and didn't feel qualified to post. And because some folks here tend not to be supportive of people who try to do the right thing but still don't meet their standards.

In the last year I've put 2000 miles on my bike commuting to work. That's 2k less miles that would have gone on my car. Having my bike in the office everyday generates a lot of interest from my co-workers and I'm all too happy to speak with them about it. I also be sure to ride responsibly on the road, trying to give favorable impressions to motorists at all times. I like to keep the vibe positive and think that every little bit helps.

I've been a BF member for years, but when this forum started up it became the only I read.

[jimmuter]

You totally miss the point which is that those who preach how easy or practical it is to be car-free almost to a man/woman are without any dependents and apparantly don't have a clue about or any empathy for those who don't share their single/childless urban simple lifestyle.

I {gasp} agree with ILTB (for once). There is this annoying undercurrent in this forum that this lifestyle is sustainable for all people under any circumstance. If anyone in this forum is over 40 and is still car-free, they either live in an urban setting or don't have children (that live with them anyway). Am I making an excuse for not being car-free? You bet. I've been there and done that. I have cars now because it became unmanageable when the wife and I decided to perpetuate the continued existence of the human race. I suppose I could've moved to NYC, but aren't there already enough people there? Most communities are now designed to require the use of a car.

[pedex]

I {gasp} agree with ILTB (for once). There is this annoying undercurrent in this forum that this lifestyle is sustainable for all people under any circumstance. If anyone in this forum is over 40 and is still car-free, they either live in an urban setting or don't have children (that live with them anyway).


That annoying undercurrent is often created when people with cars come in here and start giving car free people grief over their lifestyle choices. We all have to make choices in life, if that means having a car then deal with it, if it involves being car free then thats fine too, but this IS a car free forum. From my POV being car free is much easier than many think it is, but it also involves changing the way you look at the way most people live or how one lives and where. I didnt design the typical american way of life, but it didnt take me long to put myself in a situation where being car free was quite easy either despite the fact that the US isnt real condusive to doing it. Im certainly not here to be a role model or change the world, but I have been criticised by non car-free people on this very forum, this caused me to consider not posting here any longer, more I think about it, its probably best that I dont. The already car free people know how to cope, and the car free wannabe's will figure it out the hard way just like the rest of us did. Peace.

[Roody]

If I've posted it once, I've posted it a hundred times--most people here totally understand that the North American infrastructure is set up for cars, and in many communities it is difficult to impossible to be carfree. My helmet is off to those who try to use their cars less in these communities, and I hope (for their sake), that all communities will come to their senses and improve conditions for cyclists, especially by curtailing urban sprawl and traffic congestion.

A couple people mentioned that they feel reluctant to post because they are carlite, or wannabes. I don't think many of the regulars here want to discourage anybody from lurking and posting here, whether they have a car or not. This is a public forum, so if you think somebody is dissing you, call them on it. Carlite people and wannabes should feel comfortable coming here for tips and inspiration, and I think the overwhelming majority of them do. And please, start threads about the things that make carfree difficult or impossible for you. That's what keeps the forum going! :)

But do keep an open mind and realize that some of us are always hearing from firends and coworkers that it is impossible to be carfree in our own communities. These friends never stop to think that we--the people they're talking to--are living proof that it is possible to be carfree. (Americans tend to be very close-minded about this issue.:)) So maybe we do get a little defensive when we hear the same stuff here on a carfree forum! This is not a forum to defend carfree living, it is a forum to discuss our experiences and work toward solutions to the problems of living carfree. And of course, we also come her to share the happiness we have found with our choice of riding instead of driving, whenever and wherever possible.

BTW, if you lurk here long enough, you will find that there are many people with families and aged parents who are carfree. I think that internet forums in general tend to attract younger people in disproportionate numbers, and many of these young people have not yet started families. Only time will tell if they remain carfree when they do have kids, but there are many who already have.

[patc]

There is this annoying undercurrent in this forum that this lifestyle is sustainable for all people under any circumstance.

Really? I think the message is that it can be sustainable for anyone, if you create the circumstances that allow it.

If anyone in this forum is over 40 and is still car-free, they either live in an urban setting or don't have children (that live with them anyway).

So, what you are saying here is that some people made CHOICES (not living in an urban setting, having kids) and that those CHOICES create circumstances making it difficult to be car-free. Yes, that is very much my message, we all make choices and get stuck with the limitations those choices put on us, and changing that later can be a lot of work.


I have cars now because it became unmanageable when the wife and I decided to perpetuate the continued existence of the human race.

Oh please, I don't believe for a minute you and your wife had any serious concern about the "continued existence of the human race" when you decided to breed. Even if it was a choice for you, and not a so-called accident, I doubt it was altruistic. Given global population stats, we're not in any danger of extinction due to lack of reproduction. (We are very good at kiling each other, though, and killing ourselves due to unhealthy lifestyles, so maybe you have a point.)

I suppose I could've moved to NYC, but aren't there already enough people there? Most communities are now designed to require the use of a car.

Yes, you could have moved to a great many urban centers, but chose not too. Yes, a great any places are designed to facilitate car use. Thank you for your post, you illustrate several of the classic excuses. Now take responsibility for your actions. IF you feel being car-free or car-lite is important, then what are you doing about it to change your own circumstances, and the communities around you? If you do NOT think being car-free or car-lite is important, what the heck are you doing on this forum?

[Wren]

This is my first post anywhere on bikeforums. I, too, am a lurker, but follow this thread.

To the guy who questioned how to get his wife into biking more, I do have some suggestions.

1. Find out what her objections are, and really listen without defending cycling.
2. If her objections can be gotten around, then as a gift, don't ask, but take her to a cycling shop that can fit her with a bike. Let her pick out exactly what she wants for the kind of cycling the two of you would be doing together. If she's not interested, forget it.
3. Ride where she wants to go and how much she wants to ride without putting in your two cents or suggesting alternatives.

The idea is for her to begin to love it herself. She might take to it right away or may take to it in stages or not at all. Just don't have expectations for her on this as that may take away from her enjoyment. If she wants to ride at 8mph. around the neighborhood for two blocks, then it's fine with you. Comprende? At the end of the ride, tell her how much you enjoyed her company, and leave it at that. Don't mention riding to her otherwise. Let it be her idea when she's ready to ride again. If she feels you're trying to push riding on her that may be her real objection.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

That annoying undercurrent is often created when people with cars come in here and start giving car free people grief over their lifestyle choices.
If this forum depended on only those who are 100% certified car-free and meet your standards of moral purity it would be whittled down to about a dozen (at most) single posters mostly living at the fringes of society whining about the moral and economic flaws of those who are not as righteous as themselves

[KrisPistofferson]

A couple people only come to this subforum to troll. If everyone would just ignore them, it wouldn't derail threads so badly. Just as I have a right to go to the Fixed Gear forum and poste hateful, broad generalization about them in an effort to make them mad, those who for whatever reason dislike the nation of living without a car are free to do the same to us. That doesn't mean we have to respond to them.

Look, I think everyone here knows who I'm talking about. Bikeforums members have wasted far too much bandwidth on this guy, and if you attempt to make a negative post in his direction, he'll immediately cry to the mods, apparently. This is a subforum for car-free people and those who are interested in being car-free, explaining our way of life is fine, but feeling obligated to defend it against an overtly antagonistic, bitter old man is not. This troll's probably the most negative poster on Bikeforums, and hasn't even contributed his $25 to offset the cost of how much crap he stirs up, so he goes on my ignore list. He doesn't fulfill any useful function on this subforum, so maybe he'll go on yours, too.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

BTW, if you lurk here long enough, you will find that there are many people with families and aged parents who are carfree. I think that internet forums in general tend to attract younger people in disproportionate numbers, and many of these young people have not yet started families. Only time will tell if they remain carfree when they do have kids, but there are many who already have.
Maybe so but only one or two (at most) of the regular posters here fit that description.

[jimmuter]

Oh please, I don't believe for a minute you and your wife had any serious concern about the "continued existence of the human race" when you decided to breed. Even if it was a choice for you, and not a so-called accident, I doubt it was altruistic.

That part was a joke jack-arse. Man, was I that humorless when I was car-free?;) I don't know anyone who breeds for the continuation of the human race. I phrased it that way because of the ijit who posted the 'is it really responsible to have children' nonsense, which by the way could be construed as a racist comment (i.e. the higher the birth rate, the less responsible the group):

2002 US birth rates from the CDC:
Whites - 57.5
Blacks - 65.4
Indian - 58.0
Asian - 63.9
Hispanic - 94.0
(I don't really believe the intent was racist - but it was a dumb thing to say).

By the way, I don't think it's important to be car free, though I admire the lifestyle and once found it suitable for me. What am I doing here you ask? It's interesting to come here and read how people are overcoming societal expectations and living life the way they want to. It's the intolerance and the insufferable holier than thou attitude posts that I enjoy responding to. I'm a 'live and let live' kind of guy. If it makes you happy, more power to you. I chose a different lifestyle currently, and I'm very happy. I don't disagree with most of what you said, except that you misconstrue my intent.

[patc]

I chose a different lifestyle currently, and I'm very happy. I don't disagree with most of what you said, except that you misconstrue my intent.

Sorry to have misconstrued your intent. I strongly disagree with your premise, however. To me another person's freedom ends where my life/health starts (and vice-versa). That means that car use, or public smoking, or any other "lifestyle" that DIRECTLY affects me is not something I have a "live and let live" attitude about. Rather, I have a "you are directly harming me, and I think you need to be stopped" attitude about it.

Heck, I think driving a personal motor vehicle during a smog warning day should be considered assault, just as smoking in public is starting (finally) to be.

I realize, however, that car use has a great many direct and indirect impacts on everyone, and the situation is for to complex for easy solutions. That doesn't mean, however, that I accept excuses.

[pedex]

If this forum depended on only those who are 100% certified car-free and meet your standards of moral purity it would be whittled down to about a dozen (at most) single posters mostly living at the fringes of society whining about the moral and economic flaws of those who are not as righteous as themselves


My standards of moral purity??????????????/WTF?, get your head out of your ***. Fringes of society? Please, why dont you make some MORE inaccurate assumptions why dont you. Im a small business owner, I employ people, is that fringe enough for you? I also vote, shop, eat, and live and contribute to the community I live in, is that fringe?

Its about being car free, not social status or class dude, give it a rest. Its about helping others that wish to make the change themselves. I cant tell you what it isnt about, it isnt about jackoff's like you which do little more than bounce around the different subforums taking potshots at other people's posts or beliefs or experiences. How about some positive contributions for a change?Might be a refreshing change from the constant sniping and contrarian posts you seem to relish.

[spider-man]

My last car was an MG. Hah.

I just don't post here often because I have more to say about mechanics and vintage bikes.

[MaxBender]

Don't want to die at the hands of a distracted, cell-phoning soccer mom.