Is touring on a folder mad?

[folding_wonder]

Hi everyone. I've fallen in love with the idea of tackling the Stelvio pass in northern Italy. But it's not the easiest place to get to.

The most convenient thing to do would be to take my Brompton – it's much easier and less costly when it comes to flying, trains etc. Thing is, there are 48 hairpins on the Stelvio, and it's a bit steep!!!!!

Does anyone have experience of touring on a folder – not just in Italy or Europe, but anywhere on the hilly side? Especially a bike with limited gear range like mine? Would they recommend it? Or is this just a crazy idea?

Thanks in advance,

Stuart

[gbouchar]

I have toured lately (mostly overnighter) with my Raleigh Twenty. My girlfriend was on her Speed 3 * 7. With carefull packing (i am working on this) they were working perfectly. I may sold my full size touring. BUT they have wider gearing than a Brompton. I am far from being sure a 3 speeds is enough to do what you want. Maybe others will disagree.

[jakub.ner]

Hi folding_wonder. I just returned from my first tour on a folder a week or so ago. It was by far not through the alps, but along the shore of Lake Ontario in NY and Ontario. Mostly flat except for land supposedly previously settled by the Shakers. There were hills there where my 6 speeds didn't cut it. My lowest gear inch is 33 or so. On these hills I would stand up and stomp stomp stomp (as smoothly as I could) then sit down and push forward just to work different muscles. There was only one hill that forced me off the bike. I think the slopes were quite significant, but the length of the hills was--I imagine--much less than what you will face.

This was a fully loaded tour. I.e. all food and shelter was packed on the bike. It all fit in two front paniers on a front rack (from Dahon), a handle bar bag, and a trunk bag on a rear ArcLite rack. A bear keg, tent, pad, sleeping bag were strapped in the back outside of any bags: these were strapped to a second rear seat post rack (i.e. I had two racks in the back, one for the trunk bag and the other one for the shelter/food. The loading of the folder was my biggest fear, not the gearing. Somehow it all fit and was easy to get to.

A friend of mine rode with me and toured on a Trek 520 tricked out for this, and he definitelly went up the hills much easier and his coasting speed was much higher. I went on an Avenir folding bike (Avenir is a 2004 Dahon licenced by Raleigh). This is a city folding bike and not meant for touring. As such before the tour I got a really good rear wheel/hub. The bike made sounds (creaking) but tightening the clamps helped. Now it's making creaking sounds again but I see some sand go into the space where the bike folds, perhaps that's the problem. Overall I had no problems other than normal stuff: i.e. one tire ripped and one tube gone.

When climbing the hills I was dreaming about dual drive and Bike Fridays, but at the end decided that perhaps just changing the front chain ring and switching to a 7 or 8 speed internal gear drive would get my low end to about 20 or so gear inches, very comparable to other touring bikes. I don't care about the high end as much. My cruising speed is lower than my current high end (at the cadence and power I apply).

If you're touring on a Brompton with 3 speeds, can you change the front chain ring to give you 20 gear inches on the low end? Do you care for the high end? I think on a loaded tour it doesn't matter. I did hit 64 km/h but it had nothing to do with my high end, but gravity.

The other great benefit was that once I got about 1 or so day from Toronto, and the rest of the way was on highway 2, I went to Belleville, packed the bike in the train at no extra charge and no special gymnastics on my part, and came home.

[maunakea]

My suggestion, having been through Stelvio Pass (and in France, many cols of the TdF), very slowly, is to put a compact double chain ring on your bike and put two master links in your chain. No FD (aka front mech). After you are in the foothills of a particular pass, and start climbing, you will thereafter be climbing ALL day, so stop and take the "insert" out of your chain, and use the smaller chain ring. At the pass, you could put the insert back in .... but you won't be pedaling much for several hours as you descend. You will only need the large CR again in the valleys. Loaded touring in the Alps .... means 10 gear inches in the Alps. Depending on the delta between large CR and small CR, you might get by without an insert .... but there will be such tension on the chain that having the right chain length is critical, IMO. The biggest problem after the last village on the way up, at least in the summer, is water.

[jakub.ner]

My suggestion... is to put a compact double chain ring on your bike and put two master links in your chain. No FD (aka front mech). After you are in the foothills of a particular pass, and start climbing, you will thereafter be climbing ALL day, so stop and take the "insert" out of your chain, and use the smaller chain ring.

Clever.

I guess bringing along a chain ring, unbolting 4 bolts and switching the chain ring wouldn't take all that much longer, would it?

[geo8rge]

"unbolting 4 bolts"
Make sure you have a tool for the slot on the back of the bolts (if your bolts are like mine).

Consider if small dia wheels are a good match for the road surface.

[maunakea]

"compact double chain ring" ... there's no need to change the chain ring, just manually place the chain on the alternate chain ring. I run a 53/39 on my DT FS. When there's a long climb, I simply move the chain from the 53 to the 39.

[LWaB]

A fellow in England occasionally rides up Mt Ventoux on his Brompton but he is a bit weird (rides fixed wheel on Paris-Brest). Just fit a second chainring and do a 'manual change' as suggested above. There is no need to shorten the chain with a Brompton chain tensioner.

[migjet]

I too am interested to hear the many ways these folders have been used in touring, mountain, etc. Planning to do the five-boro next year on a folder, i'm sure someone has done this. Would be great to hear comments, experience.

[Crankypants]

My wife and I rode our bikes across the Pyrenees last June. She was riding her modified Down Tube, and I had a cheap city bike. We were fully loaded carrying all our camping gear. My wife added a 11-32 cassette, and we both climbed many of the famous mountains on the tour, a total of 45,000 verticle feet in two weeks. The important thing was that she had that low gear ( around 26'' believe'), and her high gear was tall enough for riding on flats and into headwinds. No need to add another chainring up front if you are comfortable riding a low gear that has a high somewhere in the 60" range. Her bike was as quick as my full sized city bike, but she did get some snears from "real" cyclists who scoffed at her bike as she climbed mountain passes. Of course, "real" cyclists would never climb Tourmalet fully loaded with camping gear, and sleep at the top of the past near the Tour de France founder memorial.

[Crankypants]

I wanted to say that Stelvio pass is also on my list, and I plan to do it with my modified DT mini next spring! Bonne route Folding Wonder! Maybe we'll see each other on the top of the world somewhere.

[Dahon.Steve]

You will only need the large CR again in the valleys. Loaded touring in the Alps .... means 10 gear inches in the Alps.

I thought you could only go a low as 18 inches on a bicycle. Can you drop to a 10 inch gear on a SA-3??

[Dahon.Steve]

If you're touring on a Brompton with 3 speeds, can you change the front chain ring to give you 20 gear inches on the low end? Do you care for the high end? I think on a loaded tour it doesn't matter. I did hit 64 km/h but it had nothing to do with my high end, but gravity..

I was wondering if it was possible for the SA-3 to drop to 20 inches. I figure the math tonight but maybe the internals will get cooked by applying a small chainring.

[jakub.ner]

I was wondering if it was possible for the SA-3 to drop to 20 inches. I figure the math tonight but maybe the internals will get cooked by applying a small chainring.

Never thought of that. I think this is still on topic. Are you implying that by adding a small ring you might be using an internal 3 speed outside of it's designed range? Perhaps if it doesn't break, it does suffer from greater inefficiency (friction etc) when working at 20 gear inches instead of the somewhat standard 35?

[LWaB]

Sturmey used to recommend a 2:1 chainring to cog ratio, this was for big-wheeled bikes of course. You can break the epicyclic gears if you try hard enough, as early low-geared AW-equipped off-roaders found out. In practice, with the small wheels limiting leverage, you can go lower on most folders. Google for Tony Hadland's website for more details.

[Bacciagalupe]

For what little my opinion is worth, I don't recommend doing the Stelvio, let alone any extensive hilly touring, on a Brompton. Even with the 6-speed hub the gearing just isn't good enough.

If I was going to tackle some serious mountains I'd probably look into a Bike Friday, and have 'em whip up something oriented towards climbing. Tell them what you plan to ride and they'll spec it out, and since they're all custom you can get whatever components you want on it. You will at least need some type of low-geared double, but more likely a triple, to make it up those hills without decimating your knees -- especially if you're carrying baggage.

[Crankypants]

Bike Friday is great, but you can easily add low gears on any bicycle (or folder) that you feel comfortable on. A triple is nice, but you do not always benefit from such a large range of gears. I have two nice touring bikes with a triple, and one with a simple 8 speed that is geared low, and the 8 speed is great for loaded touring in mountainous areas.

[juan162]

A triple is nice, but you do not always benefit from such a large range of gears. I have two nice touring bikes with a triple, and one with a simple 8 speed that is geared low, and the 8 speed is great for loaded touring in mountainous areas.

Though I haven't done any touring, I agree with Crankypants about the whole gear issue. If you would like more info, follow this link:

http://www.gaerlan.com/dahon/gear.htm

You don't need tons of gears, you just need the right ones:).

Juan

[cyclistjohn]

I'd like a Bike Friday, but can't afford one, so it's interesting to see what can be done on a "lesser" bike.

Any pointers please to the components that your wife used for her bike mod's?

thanks.

[Bacciagalupe]

OK, so you've got 4000+ feet of climbing just to get to the base of Stelvio, and the pass itself is 4500 feet with up to a 12% grade near the summit! That's over 8000ft of climbing in 60 miles! (Assuming you do all that in one day.) You'd take this pass on a loaded bike with a single chainring?** :eek:

I can see how you can get pretty low if you swap out both the front ring and the rear cassette. Prepare to get a little gear nerdy. (Unfortunately gear inches makes the most sense to me....)

42T x 11/32 on 20" wheels = 23" to 76"
52/40/30 x 11/32 on 700c wheels = 27" x 137"

So you do fine on the low end, but lose a lot on the high end. I guess if you dedicate a bike to hilly touring, and you don't mind topping out early (around what, 22-24mph?), and you don't mind stretching the daylights out of your chain ;), it's not so bad. (I assume you likely need a chain guide as well, an addition which I personally dislike.) But it seems to me like most people would want a better range than the 42 x 11/32.

Regardless, if you took a Brommie on this trip, you'd have to brag to your friends that you hiked the Stelvio pass rather than biked it! ;)


cyclistjohn: BF's can be pricey, but I suspect if you call them up and say "I've got $800 to spend on a bike and not a penny more, and I'm climbing the Alps!" they may well have something for you. You can do a short flat tour on almost anything, but IMO doing a tour with serious climbs on a sub-$700 folding bike is just not the way to go.


** see http://www.gsoto.easynet.co.uk/sw_ride1a.htm for the source of these numbers and pics of the pass

[MichaelW]

If you want low touring gears on a folding bike like a Brommy, check out the Schlumpf Mountaindrive (http://www.schlumpf.ch/md_engl.htm).

[Crankypants]

The only change that my wife did to her DT were: adding a 11-32 cassette, a Brooks saddle, and a longer stem so that she could get more upper body extension. She road that bike over 45,000 verticle feet in 11 days, and never had to walk it once. A triple chainring would have given her a higher gear for mashing on the flats, and grinding even faster down the mountain slopes, but that it not how she does her fully loaded bike touring. Her chain tension is like any other bicycle, I do not understand why it would be tighter, Bacciagalupe. If you can ride a bike up a mountain pass, and your 8 speed low gear is as low as it would be with any triple, then a triple isn't doing anything to help your climbing (but adding some weight). Besides, unless you are a total masher (knee wrecker), then you probably rarely the higher redundant gears of the triple too much anyway, especially touring. Plus, you have a simple, lighter system to work with.

[Crankypants]

Sorry, I wanted to say rode.

[cyclistjohn]

cyclistjohn: BF's can be pricey, but I suspect if you call them up and say "I've got $800 to spend on a bike and not a penny more, and I'm climbing the Alps!" they may well have something for you.

I would never of thought of that, but worth a try, I suppose! I'll have to think up a good line before I call them :-)

You can do a short flat tour on almost anything, but IMO doing a tour with serious climbs on a sub-$700 folding bike is just not the way to go.

& in fact I shall be doing such on a Strida 3 in a couple of weeks (no mountains though ;-) ) but I agree it's not really the best approach :-)

** see http://www.gsoto.easynet.co.uk/sw_ride1a.htm for the source of these numbers and pics of the pass

Looks interesting thanks. I've bookmarked it, as I'm (temporarily?) on dialup until my ISP pays its bill to British Telecom, so it's loading a tad s l o w l y :-(

[zoridog]

You want mad? This is mad ... touring on a loaded down 3 speed.
http://www.bikechina.com/ct-heinzstucke1z.html

[jakub.ner]

& in fact I shall be doing such on a Strida 3 in a couple of weeks (no mountains though ;-) ) but I agree it's not really the best approach :-)

(sorry for the off topic) What if you break down, i.e. your belt breaks? With a "normal" bike you can make it to the next bike store and get things fixed, with a strida it seems anything is a final blow.

I like standardization in this regard.

[cyclistjohn]

(sorry for the off topic)

I don't mind so long as nobody else does. There'd be dozens of "minor" threads going if we had to have one for every small detail I suppose :-)

What if you break down, i.e. your belt breaks? With a "normal" bike you can make it to the next bike store and get things fixed, with a strida it seems anything is a final blow.

Good point & ISTR I did think briefly about that when I ordered it. Having examined the bike & been up many hills pedalling hard, riding through 2" (5cm) of water, etc., I've seen no deterioration in the belt. Strida guarantees it for 50000 miles I think, & finally, I'm informed that it's a standard car timing belt part, (reminds me, must find out *which* car :-) ) so I don't worry about that at all now. For me the belt is a major +. It (whole bike really) is very quiet, so I can cycle through parks etc., without disturbing wildlife. When it gets rain & mud covered, it cleans in < a minute to pristine condition. There's also no chance of it falling off - unlike previous upright bikes I've had. It also means I can wear anything, as only water or mud can be transferred to me, not grease!

I like standardization in this regard.

I totally agree with you & again I thought about that briefly. In practice many important things *are* standard. Wheels are 16", tyres & tubes are standard (well whatever "standard" means as it seems there are lots of different "16" tubes & tyres)
The seat is standard, so too are pedals & pedal cranks, bottom bracket ball races, brake cable pulls, & the 2 cables. The hub brakes I think are also standard, as hub brakes go, & from my (so far relatively short) experience, very robust, as of course, they're internal to the hub, so not exposed to the elements. I don't expect they'll wear too much either.

In fact, your post post has made me think: I actually feel that as the bike is quite simple, there's probably a lot less to go wrong on it than a conventional bike, so I wouldn't have to dread going into a bike shop thinking "I wonder if they've got this particular bit of derailleur in stock............"

[Crankypants]

Here I am to argue for touring on a sub $750. Sometimes more expensive equipment is more reliable, but not always. I spent two years of extensive touring on a 120 euro commuter bike that I bought at a GOSPORT in southern France. Yes, I heard several bike shop owners say that my bike wasn't made for touring, but it was equipped with reliable parts that allowed me to ride all over Southern France and conquer Mt Ventoux, Tourmalet, Bavala (on Corsica), traverse the Pyrennees, etc. After thousands of kilometers of riding of peaks, decorated with memorials of those that died on the Tour de France, and pulling a fully loaded BOB, I finally sold it to a nice gentleman in Montpellier for 40 euros who was very happy to replace the bike that was stolen from him. I have also had some memorable experiences touring Guinea West Africa, Sumatra, Myanmar, and Bali on simple Chinese one speed bikes. The point is that you DON'T need to spend lots of hard earned cash to build up a reliable bicycle that is going to be your trusty touring steed.

[Crankypants]

And please Bacciagalupe, tell us why touring on a sub $750 is not the way to go.

[Bacciagalupe]

OK Crankypants, it's "go" time. ;)

My specific claim is that "I do not recommend touring on a sub-$700 folding bike." That's what the OP and others are asking about, and that's the subset of bicycles I'm addressing. So....

Most of the folding bikes in the sub-$700 price range don't have very good components and/or have a lot of proprietary parts (especially Dahons, which also are notorious for bad wheels); cheaper parts = higher chance of a mechanical failure, which I'm sure you agree always happens at the worst possible moment. :D Many sub-$700 folders are also on the heavy side, aren't all that adjustable and are generally designed to be more upright. None, as far as I know, are specifically designed or optimized for touring. $700+ gets you into the range of better quality folding bikes, e.g. Swifts and Bike Friday; the latter is even designed from the ground up for touring.

Given a choice between a $300 folding bike and a $700 bike that has better quality components, has lots of standard parts, is more adjustable, is more versatile, is more efficient, has a lower chance of a crippling mechanical, has a superior ride feel, and will last longer, then it's money well spent.

Clearly I personally would not want to tour extensively on a single-speed bike, even one with a flip-flop hub. Single-speeds are mechanically simpler and therefore more reliable. But they are undeniably less efficient when dealing with hills and wind. While fixed / SS is fun for short distances, I see no point in blowing out my knees whilst on tour.

I'd think all of this would be fairly obvious. There's really nothing radical in my opinions, I'm not insisting you need to spend $2500 on a pimped-out folder, nor is $700 an outrageous or unheard-of sum to pay for a bike.

[Crankypants]

Good points, thanks!