Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - LBS wants to charge me $390 for Deep Vs and Velocity(formula)s

so I went to my LBS today because I didn't want to order these wheels over the internet if I didn't have to and they said it would cost $390 for a machine built velocity wheelset with velocity(IRO/Formula) hubs:eek: . IRO has them for $260, since it is the exact same product why in the hell would they charge $130 more?

So that they can make a profit and pay rent...eat food, y'know little things like that.

How long have you been living in a capitalist society dude?

Because they need to buy campy v-brakes for their over-sized ear lobes and electrical tape for their beer guts.

You should figure out what it would cost you to source the parts if you were going to build them yourself, that is your base price. Then you add on labor and a small markup on each part (hub, rim, spokes). I don't know how much those hubs go for, but purchased at an LBS the Deep V's will probably run about $70 each, spokes about $70 also (give or take, assuming $1 spokes, 72 holes) depending on how many holes and color. That right there gets you to $210. Let's just say labor is $30 per wheel (though I think my LBS charges $30 per), which gets us to $280 that leaves $110 for both hubs and markup. IRO charges on their site charges $74 for the hubs. $390 might be a little high, not sure, but it is not way off.

IRO has the benefit of purchasing things in a volume that I presume most LBS's can't get away with.

"small markup" , at least...40% you think?

ben's has them for $200.

an LBS isn't going to buy formula hubs from IRO, unless you demand it...retail prices already have markup included, hence IRO selling them for about your first sub-total.

anyways, i suggest you checkout nycbikes, i have their formula/eggplant deep-V wheelset and it rocks, plus less than either of the mentioned options.

You should figure out what it would cost you to source the parts if you were going to build them yourself, that is your base price. Then you add on labor and a small markup on each part (hub, rim, spokes). I don't know how much those hubs go for, but purchased at an LBS the Deep V's will probably run about $70 each, spokes about $70 also (give or take, assuming $1 spokes, 72 holes) depending on how many holes and color. That right there gets you to $210. Let's just say labor is $30 per wheel (though I think my LBS charges $30 per), which gets us to $280 that leaves $110 for both hubs and markup. IRO charges on their site charges $74 for the hubs. $390 might be a little high, not sure, but it is not way off.

IRO has the benefit of purchasing things in a volume that I presume most LBS's can't get away with.


The OP said they were machine built wheels. still sounds like a bit of a rip off to me.

i always wondered if a cheaper viable alternative woud be to buy the parts yourself, lace the wheels, and true them to the best of your ability using brake pads as a reference, and then have them trued at a shop.
i had a spoke replaced and my wheel trued for $12 once. might be a good learning experience as well

Because they need to buy campy v-brakes for their over-sized ear lobes and electrical tape for their beer guts.

Woah... campy v-brakes are TOP SECRET. How did you find out about that? What else do you know about Euclid v2.0?

Italian men in Armani suits will be abducting you when you go to sleep. Goodnight, and goodbye, my friend.

sers - thats what i do. lbs usually then charges me 20-25 to finish off both of the wheels.

my last wheelset, (campy record to mavic record du monde le huere tubulars 36h w sapim laser spokes) came out to be about 300 all said and done.

Woah... campy v-brakes are TOP SECRET. How did you find out about that? What else do you know about Euclid v2.0?

Italian men in Armani suits will be abducting you when you go to sleep. Goodnight, and goodbye, my friend.

..actually i was just referring to a post Serendipper had posted in another thread.

*wraps black electric tape around beer gut. sticks campy v-brakes in ridiculously oversized earlobes*
post#35 (http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=2943622#post2943622)

shops have overhead, internets do not. <3

Well, internets definitely have overhead, but they have far less than brick-and-mortar shops do. A savvy shop that expects to charge more than the big online houses these days will need specialize in a popular but specific niche, source the persnickety-to-find stuff and offer great service- add some value to the equation. If they really have their wits about them, they'll channel that same knowledge into a successful online shop as well.

To my mind, if a shop has to obviously gouge people to make ends meet, they've got a ****ty business model. It's just too easy to comparison shop these days to pull that ****.

I was having some speakers installed in my car and the dealer told me they wanted to charge me 3x the online price for the components- I whipped out my phone, found the price online and showed them. They were cowed and offered me what I thought was a fair discount.

I didn't ask them to match prices, out of respect for their being a physical shop- but in today's market you can't expect to rake people over the coals. The consumer is getting better informed. There's a fine line between blindly upcharging to meet the bottom line and just being jerks because, "well, the customer's here, and they need the **** now.. Let's see what the market will bear! ;)"

these guys we charging $40 a wheel for labor. is that absured(sp) or just me?

40 for a wheelbuild is fair, but if they're machine built wheels somethings wrong.

Well, internets definitely have overhead, but they have far less than brick-and-mortar shops do. A savvy shop that expects to charge more than the big online houses these days will need specialize in a popular but specific niche, source the persnickety-to-find stuff and offer great service- add some value to the equation. If they really have their wits about them, they'll channel that same knowledge into a successful online shop as well.

To my mind, if a shop has to obviously gouge people to make ends meet, they've got a ****ty business model. It's just too easy to comparison shop these days to pull that ****.

)"

+1

Except that I don't think the niche market is as important as just damn good service to ensure consumers that their $ is actually valued. That is a niche in and of itself.:)

sers - thats what i do. lbs usually then charges me 20-25 to finish off both of the wheels.

my last wheelset, (campy record to mavic record du monde le huere tubulars 36h w sapim laser spokes) came out to be about 300 all said and done.

thanks man, that's good to know.

+1

Except that I don't think the niche market is as important as just damn good service to ensure consumers that their $ is actually valued. That is a niche in and of itself.:)

and the fact that people who have the knowledge to buy bike stuff online are a pretty small part of most shops business. For every $100 they gouge out of people like the OP for new wheelsets and stuff they have gouged thousands out of other customers on $70 tuneups.

Yeah and for that seventy dollars from the tune-up it goes to paying for tools, training the mechanics, paying the mechanics, all the lil "spare" parts that get put on bikes, and covering some of the overhead, and the remaining couple dollars can be counted as profit. Trust me for the average person who hardly rides their bike, that seventy dollars is a deal by the time they have to buy their tools, lubes, rags, repair stand, some kind of training (whether books or clinics) and then the countless hours of tooling on the bike wasted cuz they have no idea what their doing. And dont forget the broken, stripped, cut too short parts/ pieces they have to rebuy cuz they mess it up...

Its like when people complain they we charge for what they consider "a simple tube install", so they buy the tube and go home to do it themselves, then come back 1/2 hour later with a "defective" tube thats been pinch flatted or gouged with a screwdriver, then finally end up buying another tube and a set of tire levers (which we recommend, but always get the funny lil comment of "ill just use a screwdriver)....

Those that complain about the price of goods at their local mom-and-pop will be doomed to wander the isles of a brightly lit Wal-Store for all eternity and wonder....

...what ever happened to the lil' brick n' mortar lbs?

thanks man, that's good to know.

buy a cheap truing stand you lazy mother****ers

My boss does wheel builds and offers a lifetime guarantee for trueness and against spoke breakage. He equilibrates spoke tension at the specified tension as well as ties and solders the spokes. I can almost guarantee no shop within 500 miles will do the same things for any reasonable price.

Re: Building and "truing to the best of your ability"

The problem with doing this is you may not be bringing each spoke up to tension equally, thus compromising the quality of the final build. You need a tensionmeter (or an impeccable ability to flick the spokes and recognize pitch differences) to start the build on the right track. If you brought a semi-built wheel to our shop and it wasn't starting off correctly, we'd ask if you'd like us to retension it ($20/wheel), which while less than the price for building labor, it's more than a simple truing.

Those that complain about the price of goods at their local mom-and-pop will be doomed to wander the isles of a brightly lit Wal-Store for all eternity and wonder....

...what ever happened to the lil' brick n' mortar lbs?

Colorado Cyclist, Nashbar, Performance, and Price Point will surely do house calls, right RIGHT?~~!!

Yeah and for that seventy dollars from the tune-up it goes to paying for tools, training the mechanics, paying the mechanics, all the lil "spare" parts that get put on bikes, and covering some of the overhead, and the remaining couple dollars can be counted as profit. Trust me for the average person who hardly rides their bike, that seventy dollars is a deal by the time they have to buy their tools, lubes, rags, repair stand, some kind of training (whether books or clinics) and then the countless hours of tooling on the bike wasted cuz they have no idea what their doing. And dont forget the broken, stripped, cut too short parts/ pieces they have to rebuy cuz they mess it up...

The whole thing takes like $15 in parts and the amount of depreciation on the shops tools is infinitetesimal the mechanic is hardly being paid at all compared to the labor fees most shops charge(they are around $100 an hour here.) Anyone can do such tuneups with way less then $70 worth of tools but they lack the skills. Skills that the shop pays barely above minumum wage for byt the way. Sure, they can get away with it becuase the average rider has no other choice and I'm not saying its bad but incredibly high labour charges are alot of what the bussiness model of LBSes are based on.

They don't need a niche because there is more money to be made exploiting the general publics inability to do the work then there would be catering to enthusiasts.

Those that complain about the price of goods at their local mom-and-pop will be doomed to wander the isles of a brightly lit Wal-Store for all eternity and wonder....

...what ever happened to the lil' brick n' mortar lbs?


I've been hearing that since the 80's. LBSes just need to realize what they can provide(service and new bikes for beginers) and what they can't(a wide selection of reasonably priced parts). People have been predicting thier demise for as long as I can remember due to mail order or internet options but I have yet to see a massive closing of bike shops. If you want to give charity to a capatalist enterprise be my guest but I think its silly to get an indetical product after the same delay from a local shop at a huge premium.

Dutret:

We live in a society which is increasingly dependent on buying new things to replace the seemingly old/unrepairable. These "incredibly high labor charges", $60/hr equivalency at our shop, were just raised because we had far too much training involved in the mechanics to sustain what was previously ~$40/hr. I am paid what I consider to be a living wage, and it's not necessarily a result of our increase in labor prices, but if you consider the amount of time it's taken me to get where I am today and the bunk attempted labor I see every day by the uninformed cyclist, then you might realize why labor costs (at LBSs and at ANY skilled-labor shop) are seemingly high. If it takes an uninformed person 3 hours to fix a flat, then why not pay the small $7.00 charge for me to do it in less than 10 minutes while s/he waits? All the while, s/he never has to get dirty! Americans have wayyyyy more money than time these days, so the goal of preserving sanity and free time seems far higher in priority than saving a few bucks.

$7 to fix a flat? my LBS is $16.

$7 to fix a flat? my LBS is $16.

$5-$7 labour, $2-$10 for a tube. That's about right.

buy a cheap truing stand you lazy mother****ers

any suggestions?

Personally I think anyone who rides more then rarely should know how to change a flat. I think any enthusiast should be able to do the vast majority of repairs themselves. Most are and only go to shops for major repairs if at all. As I said I think shops are very capable at providing maintence and repair service and can make alot of money doing so since they can get labour for cheap and charge alot. They should continue to do so. Anyone who wants to should learn to do stuff themselves though. IT's not rocket science and while they may have a few misteps at first they will pretty quickly start saving alot of money.

The OP wasn't talking about maintenence anyway but having the shop order some wheels for him. There is no reason why he should do that from the shop since he can get them alot cheaper from IRO.


Where were you sent for your training? Or do you mean you where trained as you worked, learning from experience. Thats the way I've seen in at most shops and unless that skill commands a substantially higher pay rate so that the shop can retain your training has cost the shop nothing you have made them money as you slowly worked your way up from putting new bikes together to doing tuneups to making major repairs to wheelbuilding and other advanced stuff. Maybe the shop needs more money to stay be profitable becuase they are paying alot for floor space etc but unless you are paid alot more then most wrenches or have some serious training I doubt you are costing them anything near $60/hr(which is really reasonable from what I've seen anyway.)

Personally I think...

You may be long winded and pompus, but at least you preface your speeches with a disclaimer.

Anyone willing to get into a flame war over opinions expressed is a ******. Check your ignore button for failure. Dutret is not immune to it.

As far as lbs labour is concerned, if ya needs ta get a flat fixed, ya needs ta get a flat fixed. How you do it is up to you. Sometimes people ride without tools& tubes, and breakdown near the shop. *Poof* $10 and/or a beer later, and you are rolling again, the shop made change, and you may have learned something along the way.

I know I've never learned anything about bikes on the internet!;)

I have yet to see a massive closing of bike shops.

Back in the early 90s, there were almost 8,000 independent bike shops. Last time I counted, there were just under 5,000, and that number is falling.

and a mechanic might have gotten a little drunk

everyone ones. market sets the price, dont wanna pay it? dont. They cant charge more tha people will pay.

also

Year

Number stores
2000 6,195
2001 6,259
2002 5,505
2003 5,358
2004 4,982
2005 4,705

chances are good this shop didn't realize they could order pre-made wheels from velocity for under $200. they probably looked up each part seperately, added the component costs + labor, etc. and came up with a total. if you look at it that way, it's really not thaaat high.

i was looking for wheels at my lbs the other day, and they flat out told me to just look on the internet. that i could find way better deals than they could possibly offer me.

also

Year

Number stores
2000 6,195
2001 6,259
2002 5,505
2003 5,358
2004 4,982
2005 4,705


well there you go shops are finally closing after *****ing about competition for decades without substatially changing thier bussiness model. Alot of the stores around me have been expanding or opening new locations anyway. How do those number count local chains with a handful of seperate locations? I have yet to see any severe shortage of bike shops(although there is an apparent shortage of mechanics) so I don't think the decline of shops is really hurting anyone except the owners of those that close so far.

as someone who's favorite LBS just closed (salon de biciclette on Fillmore in SF, it was the closest one to where i live now), the decline of shops is hurting me!

Bike sales are increasing though. actually getting close to the market high in 1973. pretty cool!

also

Year

Number stores
2000 6,195
2001 6,259
2002 5,505
2003 5,358
2004 4,982
2005 4,705

I bet a lot of this happens because of dueche bags that come into shops, asking questions about the product and basically learning everything they need about it and if it will work on their bike, etc, etc, then being like, well i saw it for a couple dollars cheaper on the internet... F*** these A-holes... I'm prolly biased because I work in a good shop and we constantly get people like this, and the people who cant stand dealing with performance employees or their 'service department' but love their prices... :rolleyes:

It could also be because alot of those shops are staffed by incompentent *******s who think they know alot more then they do and piss off customers with their arrogance and bad advice. I'm probably biased because most of the time when I go to a shop this is what happens and sometimes they even get pissed when I say if they have to order something they couldn't even comprehend the use for I can just order it myself and save myself the money and time...

It could also be because alot of those shops are staffed by incompentent *******s who think they know alot more then they do and piss off customers with their arrogance and bad advice. I'm probably biased because most of the time when I go to a shop this is what happens and sometimes they even get pissed when I say if they have to order something they couldn't even comprehend the use for I can just order it myself and save myself the money and time...


Well thats different from what im talking about... Im talking about the people who come in and are like ' do you have such and such, then ask a bunch of questions about the fit of it on their bike and other stuff then be like well i dont see why I should pay an extra couple bucks here...'

If you know what you need and order it off the internet thats cool, i have no problem with that. I just dont like people who waste my time with their questions and have no intentions of buying, im sorry if this offends anybody but I dont give a s**t. Im sure you'd get pissed too if i came into your work and wasted ur time... Its the same thing, my job is to help our clients, not moochers trying to get free info so they can save themselves a couple bucks...

Yeah thats obnoxious. I did make a point once of going to some of the shops that had wasted my time and pretending I was interested in buying a new road bike just so I could ride some new bikes though. Maybe these people where already pissed off at your shop for one reason or another before they came in that time.

Personally I think anyone who rides more then rarely should know how to change a flat. I think any enthusiast should be able to do the vast majority of repairs themselves. Most are and only go to shops for major repairs if at all. As I said I think shops are very capable at providing maintence and repair service and can make alot of money doing so since they can get labour for cheap and charge alot. They should continue to do so. Anyone who wants to should learn to do stuff themselves though. IT's not rocket science and while they may have a few misteps at first they will pretty quickly start saving alot of money.

The OP wasn't talking about maintenence anyway but having the shop order some wheels for him. There is no reason why he should do that from the shop since he can get them alot cheaper from IRO.


Where were you sent for your training? Or do you mean you where trained as you worked, learning from experience. Thats the way I've seen in at most shops and unless that skill commands a substantially higher pay rate so that the shop can retain your training has cost the shop nothing you have made them money as you slowly worked your way up from putting new bikes together to doing tuneups to making major repairs to wheelbuilding and other advanced stuff. Maybe the shop needs more money to stay be profitable becuase they are paying alot for floor space etc but unless you are paid alot more then most wrenches or have some serious training I doubt you are costing them anything near $60/hr(which is really reasonable from what I've seen anyway.)

Without touching any of your latter blanket responses accusing bike shop employees of being pompous, I will respond partially to this.

There are a lot of SHOULDS in that statement. I think people should do an isht ton of things, but if they actually did this laundry list of things, the list of shoulds would be completely different or not exist at all. I'm all for people learning how to maintain their bikes; it'd keep them away from the death traps that Wal-Mart churns out by the millions and would avert disaster for every poorly assembled bike purchased online and not built by a legitimate shop (bikesdirect.com, I'm looking your way).

Also, my training stems from the sage advice of my very experienced boss, some co-workers, and some self-instruction. While I may go one day, I don't need certification from UBI or one of the other schools to prove that I'm a capable mechanic, flexible enough to handle odd challenges on a day-to-day basis. Some of the most accomplished mechanics I know likely didn't go to any sort of instructional program. Although this isn't the case in all trades, it's very possible to make yourself into a quality tradesman with little formal training. Whether or not I'm taking a huge chunk of the $60/hr rate we base our repairs on is a non-issue and if I were pulling a quarter or more of that $60/hr into my salary, it'd probably be a boon for either being quite an overrated mechanic or simply too costly for my shop to handle.

Our shop is not doing badly this year, but we still operate on a 2-3% profit margin. We've often had to tell people we'd gladly raise our prices to match Price Point, Nashbar, etc much to their amazement. We don't price gouge, our repairs are guaranteed and we feel are priced appropriately, and we are courteous and understanding when someone brings in a 15-year-old Trek with dry rotted tires, fully expecting us to be like those car restoration wizards on TV who can put NOS period parts on their broked-ass bike.

Also, flat repairs are $13.83 including tax at our shop. The $7 is merely the labor fee and was stated as such because they'd still have to pay the $6 for a tube if they were to repair it themselves. Unless, of course they shop for staple items like tubes online, god forbid.

Well thats different from what im talking about... Im talking about the people who come in and are like ' do you have such and such, then ask a bunch of questions about the fit of it on their bike and other stuff then be like well i dont see why I should pay an extra couple bucks here...'

If you know what you need and order it off the internet thats cool, i have no problem with that. I just dont like people who waste my time with their questions and have no intentions of buying, im sorry if this offends anybody but I dont give a s**t. Im sure you'd get pissed too if i came into your work and wasted ur time... Its the same thing, my job is to help our clients, not moochers trying to get free info so they can save themselves a couple bucks...

No worries. The information they need can be found here if you can pare out the "POST YR FCKING BAG" and "WHAT MESSENGER IS KEWLEST" threads.

any suggestions?

performance has one for 40, it is not the greatest thing in the world but it will certainly get the job done. i bought the same one when it was 30 and it has held up fine through 4 or so wheel builds and a ton of minor truing. of course you need a spoke wrench too.

Im talking about the people who come in and are like ' do you have such and such, then ask a bunch of questions about the fit of it on their bike and other stuff then be like well i dont see why I should pay an extra couple bucks here...'

Sorry, but when LBS price is 2x what I can pay for online, you don't get my business. Unless I need it right away.

just use the wheel builder on thebikebiz web site best deal I know of and they are have built by one of my friends and I will vouch for his work

The wheelset from Ben's is a deal, too bad it is hery ford ( you can have any color you want....) But the true gem is the super record pista crankset, 899.99 . Such a DEAL.

I can sell you wheels with DA hubs for the same price... 250 or whatever IRO sells them for is a much easier number to swallow.

You should figure out what it would cost you to source the parts if you were going to build them yourself, that is your base price. Then you add on labor and a small markup on each part (hub, rim, spokes). I don't know how much those hubs go for, but purchased at an LBS the Deep V's will probably run about $70 each, spokes about $70 also (give or take, assuming $1 spokes, 72 holes) depending on how many holes and color. That right there gets you to $210. Let's just say labor is $30 per wheel (though I think my LBS charges $30 per), which gets us to $280 that leaves $110 for both hubs and markup. IRO charges on their site charges $74 for the hubs. $390 might be a little high, not sure, but it is not way off.

IRO has the benefit of purchasing things in a volume that I presume most LBS's can't get away with.
I donno, man... At this point, the LBS should order them from IRO and sell them for $280. WTF would you pay all that extra cash for???