marqueemoon
08-24-06, 12:42 PM
...read this. (http://www.cyclelicio.us/2006/08/post-and-ring-bicycle-parking.html) If these are your city's idea of suitable racks now might be a good time to attend a city council meeting.
View Full Version : In case you didn't already realize "post & ring" bike racks suck...
N_C
08-24-06, 01:22 PM
Investigating ways to modify the post & ring bike racks? Here's a suggestion, modify them by replacing them, problem solved. I have never seen one outside the picture in the link you posted.
moxfyre
08-24-06, 01:28 PM
...read this. (http://www.cyclelicio.us/2006/08/post-and-ring-bicycle-parking.html) If these are your city's idea of suitable racks now might be a good time to attend a city council meeting.
Wow! That sucks. I have thought these were kind of nice, because they take up little space and if you lock to the post with a U-lock, you prevent thieves from putting a jack in there. It's a pity that they're of such a weak construction... it seems like the fault might be with the materials used, rather than with the actual design. We have these here and there in DC, I'll have to remember to avoid them.
Personally, I prefer to lock to parking meters ... cause anything that holds money out in the open (even if <$100) has got to be built securely.
Wow! That sucks. I have thought these were kind of nice, because they take up little space and if you lock to the post with a U-lock, you prevent thieves from putting a jack in there. It's a pity that they're of such a weak construction... it seems like the fault might be with the materials used, rather than with the actual design. We have these here and there in DC, I'll have to remember to avoid them.
Personally, I prefer to lock to parking meters ... cause anything that holds money out in the open (even if <$100) has got to be built securely.
marqueemoon
08-24-06, 01:41 PM
Personally, I prefer to lock to parking meters ... cause anything that holds money out in the open (even if <$100) has got to be built securely.
I hear it's illegal in some places, but yeah...
I hear it's illegal in some places, but yeah...
patc
08-24-06, 01:56 PM
...read this. (http://www.cyclelicio.us/2006/08/post-and-ring-bicycle-parking.html) If these are your city's idea of suitable racks now might be a good time to attend a city council meeting.
Oh please, this is a problem with one specific type of post-and-ring racks, and may even be isolated to one manufacturer. Let's be reasonable here. There is no reason to think other designs share this problem.
I love post-and-ring racks myself, and have heard no reports of the local ones being broken. I loof forward to many more being installed.
There is a photo and article here (http://www.safecycling.ca/BetterBicycling/2004Autumn/a-parking_e.shtml) showing our racks.
Oh please, this is a problem with one specific type of post-and-ring racks, and may even be isolated to one manufacturer. Let's be reasonable here. There is no reason to think other designs share this problem.
I love post-and-ring racks myself, and have heard no reports of the local ones being broken. I loof forward to many more being installed.
There is a photo and article here (http://www.safecycling.ca/BetterBicycling/2004Autumn/a-parking_e.shtml) showing our racks.
moxfyre
08-24-06, 02:08 PM
I hear it's illegal in some places, but yeah...
Yeah... when I lock my bike up it's generally for an hour or two while I eat dinner, at most. But parking meters certainly aren't great for locking up a bike. It gets in the way of other people using the sidewalk depending on how they're placed.
Yeah... when I lock my bike up it's generally for an hour or two while I eat dinner, at most. But parking meters certainly aren't great for locking up a bike. It gets in the way of other people using the sidewalk depending on how they're placed.
marqueemoon
08-24-06, 05:29 PM
Oh please, this is a problem with one specific type of post-and-ring racks, and may even be isolated to one manufacturer. Let's be reasonable here. There is no reason to think other designs share this problem.
I love post-and-ring racks myself, and have heard no reports of the local ones being broken. I loof forward to many more being installed.
There is a photo and article here (http://www.safecycling.ca/BetterBicycling/2004Autumn/a-parking_e.shtml) showing our racks.
Point taken, but I still personally dislike this style of rack quite a bit. In fact, I dislike every style of rack depicted in that article.
I love post-and-ring racks myself, and have heard no reports of the local ones being broken. I loof forward to many more being installed.
There is a photo and article here (http://www.safecycling.ca/BetterBicycling/2004Autumn/a-parking_e.shtml) showing our racks.
Point taken, but I still personally dislike this style of rack quite a bit. In fact, I dislike every style of rack depicted in that article.
TRaffic Jammer
08-24-06, 05:36 PM
Replace the ring with one not made of that crappy metal whatever it is. I use those posts all the time here in Toronto and there was much hand wringing and discussion as to what they were going to buy at fabulous expense. Get the manu to change the alloy.
Wogsterca
08-24-06, 07:07 PM
Investigating ways to modify the post & ring bike racks? Here's a suggestion, modify them by replacing them, problem solved. I have never seen one outside the picture in the link you posted.
Not as easy as you might think, the post is usually concreted in place, so not only do you have to replace the post and ring, but you need to dig up the concrete it's mounted in, and that can mean while it costs $300 to install a P&R, it costs a heck of a lot more to replace one, you need to dig up the concrete, remove the old post and then install a new one.
The current ones they are using have a post, with a metal ring fastened to the side, it's not bolted, but looks similar to a bolt, where the "bolt" goes through the ring, seems to be where the defect is, I think it's that crappy die cast white metal, suitable for toy cars, and not much else. Either the ring needs to be reinforced, or a different kind of ring attached, maybe one that goes around the post, and uses a heavier grade of metal, brazed or welded to the post, rather then bolted. It's unfortunate though, because now the cities budget for installing new racks is going to go to repairing the existing ones.
I have also seen ones that use a half ring welded to each side of the post, looks stronger, but you can't really tell how much metal is there, it could be 1mm or 10mm, strangely enough these are outside a small plaza that was only built about 3 years ago, so bike parking may have been a requirement at the time.
Not as easy as you might think, the post is usually concreted in place, so not only do you have to replace the post and ring, but you need to dig up the concrete it's mounted in, and that can mean while it costs $300 to install a P&R, it costs a heck of a lot more to replace one, you need to dig up the concrete, remove the old post and then install a new one.
The current ones they are using have a post, with a metal ring fastened to the side, it's not bolted, but looks similar to a bolt, where the "bolt" goes through the ring, seems to be where the defect is, I think it's that crappy die cast white metal, suitable for toy cars, and not much else. Either the ring needs to be reinforced, or a different kind of ring attached, maybe one that goes around the post, and uses a heavier grade of metal, brazed or welded to the post, rather then bolted. It's unfortunate though, because now the cities budget for installing new racks is going to go to repairing the existing ones.
I have also seen ones that use a half ring welded to each side of the post, looks stronger, but you can't really tell how much metal is there, it could be 1mm or 10mm, strangely enough these are outside a small plaza that was only built about 3 years ago, so bike parking may have been a requirement at the time.
DataJunkie
08-24-06, 07:14 PM
I have actually never seen one of those before. We have the upside down U type racks in denver.
jwc
08-24-06, 07:18 PM
Wow, your municipalities try to accomodate bicycles?
The only thing my town has done is put up signs that say "No Bicycles Allowed on Sidewalks"
The only thing my town has done is put up signs that say "No Bicycles Allowed on Sidewalks"
DieselDan
08-24-06, 07:24 PM
I've seen all sorts here. The most popular is the cheap 4x4 with a 2" hole drilled in it.
ken cummings
08-24-06, 07:35 PM
Where I work I lock my bike to the pipes carrying fuel to and 180 degree F water from the open air boilers. Break those pipes and you get burned or boiled alive. Besides I am the only cyclist there and park well within the employees only area.
sbhikes
08-24-06, 07:46 PM
Post and ring racks are the best. The only problem is there aren't enough of them. I have never seen the kind in the picture in the article. That kind looks vulnerable to being broken. The kind I normally see aren't like that.
The only place I can lock my bikes up to a rack is on the outside. Post and ring racks are the best because every side is the outside.
The only place I can lock my bikes up to a rack is on the outside. Post and ring racks are the best because every side is the outside.
mechBgon
08-24-06, 08:28 PM
Yikes. I think I'll stick with parking meters if I need to lock up in a downtown area, preferably the double-locking approach with two separate poles (http://www.mechbgon.com/lock/dual_locks.jpg) when feasible.
donnamb
08-24-06, 10:40 PM
Wow, your municipalities try to accomodate bicycles?
The only thing my town has done is put up signs that say "No Bicycles Allowed on Sidewalks"
I see a lot of similarities between your town and a city that installs defective racks when there's an out of control bike theft problem.
The only thing my town has done is put up signs that say "No Bicycles Allowed on Sidewalks"
I see a lot of similarities between your town and a city that installs defective racks when there's an out of control bike theft problem.
rajman
08-25-06, 09:57 AM
The post and ring racks do not suck. Or at least they didn't until this vulnerability was discovered:( The advantages are many cost ($200), ease of use, and compactness being the most important. Toronto has 16 000 of these installed, and that is just the ones put in by the city. You can easily accomodate bikes along the street with these and an area where one car might fit can accomodate more than 20 bikes with these. You have to see a post and ring farm to see how well they accomodate high-density cycle parking.
I was talking to the people at the LBS about the vulnerability. Apparently the manufacturer uses aluminum for the rings (the stands and bolts are galvanized steel). Aluminum, being fairly brittle, is vulnerable to cracking if enough pressure is applied.
With steel rings the stands should work out fine - the difficulty will be replacing all of the currently installed rings (the posts will probably be ok). If you are out with a friend, it should be possible to block the 2x4 attack by parking two bikes to the ring with rigid locks so that your frames block access - though I haven't had a chace to try this.
The beauty of the post and ring stand is the ease of use and small 'footprint' - try one and see. Calgary unfortunately has a lot of the 'hanging triangle racks' which are really frustrating to use once more than a single bike is parked to it. There are a few post and rings here (all steel, so they shouldn't be vulnerable), and the inverted U - which is also quite good - but not as compact.
I was talking to the people at the LBS about the vulnerability. Apparently the manufacturer uses aluminum for the rings (the stands and bolts are galvanized steel). Aluminum, being fairly brittle, is vulnerable to cracking if enough pressure is applied.
With steel rings the stands should work out fine - the difficulty will be replacing all of the currently installed rings (the posts will probably be ok). If you are out with a friend, it should be possible to block the 2x4 attack by parking two bikes to the ring with rigid locks so that your frames block access - though I haven't had a chace to try this.
The beauty of the post and ring stand is the ease of use and small 'footprint' - try one and see. Calgary unfortunately has a lot of the 'hanging triangle racks' which are really frustrating to use once more than a single bike is parked to it. There are a few post and rings here (all steel, so they shouldn't be vulnerable), and the inverted U - which is also quite good - but not as compact.
withak
08-25-06, 10:30 AM
Apparently the manufacturer uses aluminum for the rings (the stands and bolts are galvanized steel). Aluminum, being fairly brittle, is vulnerable to cracking if enough pressure is applied.
Ah, I was wondering about that. :) I would have guessed that the bolt would fail long before the ring would, but an aluminum ring would explain it.
The ones in my town are steel, and I think they have a much more substantial bolt than the one in the picture.
Ah, I was wondering about that. :) I would have guessed that the bolt would fail long before the ring would, but an aluminum ring would explain it.
The ones in my town are steel, and I think they have a much more substantial bolt than the one in the picture.
marqueemoon
08-25-06, 11:13 AM
The beauty of the post and ring stand is the ease of use and small 'footprint' - try one and see. Calgary unfortunately has a lot of the 'hanging triangle racks' which are really frustrating to use once more than a single bike is parked to it. There are a few post and rings here (all steel, so they shouldn't be vulnerable), and the inverted U - which is also quite good - but not as compact.
I like the inverted U racks because they support the bike better and offer more lockup points. The ones in Seattle can easily fit 4 bikes locked separately. Portland has these too.
I guess I don't understand why the size of the footprint is such a big issue. How much public land is given over for car parking?
I like the inverted U racks because they support the bike better and offer more lockup points. The ones in Seattle can easily fit 4 bikes locked separately. Portland has these too.
I guess I don't understand why the size of the footprint is such a big issue. How much public land is given over for car parking?
rajman
08-25-06, 11:57 AM
The issue of footprint size is vitally important on city streets. Streetscapes that have storefronts on the sidewalk (the classic 'main street' look of North America) have no accomodation for car parking, or bicycle parking.
The PNR system allows bicycle parking to coexist with sidewalks, leaving between 2 and 4 bicycle parking spots in front of a typical 10-15ft storefront.
Inverted U's are quite good for this as well, but are somewhat less sleek.
BTW one of the reasons Toronto has so many PNR's is that the city is phasing out parking meters, in favour of pay 'n display kiosks. The kiosks have a lot of advantages, but one of the disadvantages was that the removal of parking meters decimated the available bicycle parking. Fortunately Toronto's chief of the Parking Authority is a car-free person (!) and he was adamant that the city think of a way of replacing all of the lost bicyle parking - the reliance on PNR is a result of this initiative.
The PNR system allows bicycle parking to coexist with sidewalks, leaving between 2 and 4 bicycle parking spots in front of a typical 10-15ft storefront.
Inverted U's are quite good for this as well, but are somewhat less sleek.
BTW one of the reasons Toronto has so many PNR's is that the city is phasing out parking meters, in favour of pay 'n display kiosks. The kiosks have a lot of advantages, but one of the disadvantages was that the removal of parking meters decimated the available bicycle parking. Fortunately Toronto's chief of the Parking Authority is a car-free person (!) and he was adamant that the city think of a way of replacing all of the lost bicyle parking - the reliance on PNR is a result of this initiative.
trackhub
08-25-06, 01:01 PM
They've got those in Cambridge MA, mostly around the Harvard Square area. They're supposed to look decorative, or something. I've never seen one broken in such a manner though. looking at that picture, I would guess it would not be difficult to wedge in the aforementioned 2x4, or a large crowbar, and break the ring.
Some better racks I've seen are what I call the "post and donut" type. These are solid posts,steel filled with cement I think. There's a small, thick ring at the top. The hole in the ring is too small for any large type of prying tool, but large enough to fit two locks. My local bank has two of these, right near the door. They're painted school bus yellow, so they're easy to spot.
I do not know what this type of bike costs though. Anyone have info on that?
Some better racks I've seen are what I call the "post and donut" type. These are solid posts,steel filled with cement I think. There's a small, thick ring at the top. The hole in the ring is too small for any large type of prying tool, but large enough to fit two locks. My local bank has two of these, right near the door. They're painted school bus yellow, so they're easy to spot.
I do not know what this type of bike costs though. Anyone have info on that?
mechBgon
08-25-06, 01:11 PM
I'd make the post-&-ring design something like shown below, with a top that's too big to lift a U-lock or tightly-coiled chain over, even if the ring were broken. And the ring would be forged steel. I'd actually make it thicker than shown where the post goes through it, but you see the general idea.
KnhoJ
08-25-06, 06:30 PM
Aluminum's fine, the problem with those racks is that it's cast aluminum. And a poured casting at that. Probably just "pot metal" aluminum. About as malleable as a dirt clod. Unfortunately, the city likely has a large investment in casting dies, and this might be a deterrant to ceasing production of these loops... How long until they "pay for themselves"?
But aluminum's kind of a silly material to use for this. It would be a whole lot cheaper to roll one inch mild steel roundbar into loops and weld them to the post. The material cost would be pocket change, and soft steel can be tied into knots without breaking.
But aluminum's kind of a silly material to use for this. It would be a whole lot cheaper to roll one inch mild steel roundbar into loops and weld them to the post. The material cost would be pocket change, and soft steel can be tied into knots without breaking.
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