let's see your fixtures and jigs!

[eurotrash666]

post pics of your framebuilding fixtures and jigs here! some are bought, some are built, some are traditional, some come from thinking outside the box. let's see what you've got!

[velonomad]

http://home.nycap.rr.com/richboat/jig.jpg
My jig is currently in use as a weight to glue plywood panels together for the boat I am building.

[eurotrash666]

tablesaw top... that's a new one.

[MRoth]

Nice looking frame jig. What about your alignment system? What do you use? Can we get pictures of that also?

[velonomad]

my new Anvil SuperMaster.
This thing is the bomb, yo! Want one like it? Contact Don Ferris via his website... anvilbikes.com
Fast setup, accurate and totally *****en. Best frame jig, ever!

I also own the entire range of Anvil products, including the chainstay fixture, seatstay fixture, main tube mitering fixture and also the lug vise. This guy is my hero!

Nice! but can you rip plywood on it ? :D

[eurotrash666]

wow- from one extreme to the other. don, that fixture is the most amazing setup i've ever seen. it's got ways like a mill. looks totally precise. what kind of volume do you do?

[Nessism]

My focus is in having a stable surface to measure with - and tweak onto alignment with. In addition to the parts shown below I have a set of Bringheli cutting tools, an angle guage, V-blocks, and a range of tube blocks.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m50/Nessism1/DSC01901.jpg


Build sequence goes something like this (for a lugged frame):

- make full size drawing

- use tubemiter.exe to print coping templates

- cope tubes with hacksaw and file

- varify straightness of fishmouths using surface plate then pin the joint together

- varify straightness of pined joint and tweak as necessary

- braze joint freehand

- check straightness of brazed joint using surface plate and bend/align as necessary

- go to next joint until frame is built

This method takes a TON of time compared to using a proper fixture, but it does work. Frame is just as straight as I make it.

[eurotrash666]

there is no need (or possibility) of pinning joints when tig welding or fillet brazing. if fully constrained, there should be no need for it with lugging. why do people do it?

DW- do you carry an insurance bond?

[Nessism]

there is no need (or possibility) of pinning joints when tig welding or fillet brazing. if fully constrained, there should be no need for it with lugging. why do people do it?

In my desctiption you can substitute "tack" for "pin" as needed depending on what kind of frame you are building.

Many builders only use their frame fixture to tack/pin the frame together. After the basic shape is set, they take the frame out of the fixture and braze/weld freehand to allow the frame to expand as needed during heating to allow a stress-free joint.

Did this answer the question?

[eurotrash666]

ah, i'd read that about two years ago and forgotten. it requires straightening/aligning afterwards if i remember correctly.

[timbentdude]

I see you have some MAPP gas in your picture, does that get the silver hot enough to flow?

Tim

[timbentdude]

Last post directed towards Velonomad.
sorry

[velonomad]

Yes it does. But a Benzomatic has no flame control so it takes a lot more practice and finesse to flow silver (or brass) without making a mess or leaving voids. I started using a a bottle torch when I built my first frame 20 years ago(I only build for myself). Now the $40 Benzo is more of a gimmick than need. Hobby size acetylene torches and tanks can be found for under $350 this days and it is much easier to braze with.

[timbentdude]

Thanks for the info I have a Paterek manual in the mail for a nice long winter project. And buy the way I like your jig better than don's, nice and simple no offense to don.
Tim

[eurotrash666]

Insurance? Yes and no. I have product liability. I am unsure if it is considered a "bond". Why?

DW

really just interested if it is required. fivolous lawsuits abound, if someone hurts themselves they like to blame others and profit from it. i wouldn't want to lose a million dollars for building a bike for a friend in exchange for money, if you know what i mean. i've got years of experience with metalwork, and own a ridiculous amount of equipment- mig, light tig, heavy tig, 1" plasma, mill, so on. i figure i'll have to do a frame one of these days. really just comes down to building up the fixturing.

[velonomad]

Thanks for the info I have a Paterek manual in the mail for a nice long winter project. And buy the way I like your jig better than don's, nice and simple no offense to don.
Tim

Pictures can be deceptive, Trying to get a frame straight on a table saw top is not a simple feat. Not shown is also 24" and 30" machinist straight edges , a dial gauge on a magnetic base, a dial caliper and a box of loose feeler gauges.

It was about the 5th frame I built before I had one that would track within 3 mm. Industry standard is supposedly 1mm. If I could justify the cost of a jig that I only use once every couple of years I would buy it in a heartbeat.

[timbentdude]

Pictures can be deceptive, Trying to get a frame straight on a table saw top is not a simple feat. Not shown is also 24" and 30" machinist straight edges , a dial gauge on a magnetic base, a dial caliper and a box of loose feeler gauges.

It was about the 5th frame I built before I had one that would track within 3 mm. Industry standard is supposedly 1mm. If I could justify the cost of a jig that I only use once every couple of years I would buy it in a heartbeat.

I had the same revelation back in the spring between a Bringheli jig or a new Lemond Sarthe. I opted for the Sarthe. One thing that helped with my decision was after talking with Mr. Sachs on the frameforum about liability insurance. I could not justify building a couple frames a year for myself and have the jig collect dust. And I don't want to endanger someone when a frame falls apart, eventhough I have a high regard for my welding skills, you never know.

I do have access and have collected a number of machine tools over the years. I'm a maintenance mech. for a water utility, and my dad was a die sinker for Harvester.

Tim

[Nessism]

I had the same revelation back in the spring between a Bringheli jig or a new Lemond Sarthe. I opted for the Sarthe. One thing that helped with my decision was after talking with Mr. Sachs on the frameforum about liability insurance. I could not justify building a couple frames a year for myself and have the jig collect dust. And I don't want to endanger someone when a frame falls apart, eventhough I have a high regard for my welding skills, you never know.

I do have access and have collected a number of machine tools over the years. I'm a maintenance mech. for a water utility, and my dad was a die sinker for Harvester.

Tim


Anyone that builds frames to sell should have insurance. Period. Why risk loosing everything you own for a small profit from selling a frame?

As far as building a frame goes, a jig is not necessary although it will speed up the process. The main thing is to be able to measure straightness in some way. A good straight edge will work for a start, or invest in some sort of surface plate so you can measure and align at the same time.

If you are the type of person that likes to fiddle with your hands then framebuilding can be a rewarding hobby. It will cost a little to get set-up with the tools you need but after that, you can build any frame you want for just the cost of tubes and consumables. Good stuff.

Ed

[eurotrash666]

on insurance- funk cycles went out of business in 1992 over a batch of soft tubing. daryl funk lost everything he had. he said product liablity insurance would have cost him $50k at the time, so de declined to buy it. hmmm.

[Nessism]

on insurance- funk cycles went out of business in 1992 over a batch of soft tubing. daryl funk lost everything he had. he said product liablity insurance would have cost him $50k at the time, so de declined to buy it. hmmm.

Maybe one of the pro's will chime in here but my understanding is that a reasonable amount of liability coverage for a one man shop can be had for $2k-$3k per year. This may be off somwhat but I know it's less than $50k.

[Peterpan1]

"Anyone that builds frames to sell should have insurance. Period. Why risk loosing everything you own for a small profit from selling a frame?"

Getting insurance is easy, getting it to pay out is another mater. They will write you up and cash your checks, good luck getting anything when you are in trouble. Not to say you shouldn't have it, but if you have more to loose than to gain, then on a purely financial level you should forget it.

I remember in another thread there was mention of a particular company that is offering this kind of insurance for a reasonable cost, I'd like to see their history of paid-out claims on frame business. I assume it's zero. But I'm here to be set straight.

I'm not knocking insurance companies really, they don't want some unquantifiable, unlimited risk, any more than you do, and they have a lot more experience with the contracts.

[e-RICHIE]

Maybe one of the pro's will chime in here but my understanding is that a reasonable amount of liability coverage for a one man shop can be had for $2k-$3k per year. This may be off somwhat but I know it's less than $50k.
there is no way it is or ever was that much. that's how
rumours are started!! a round figure of $3k should get
the builder all the liability coverage needed

Getting insurance is easy, getting it to pay out is another mater. They will write you up and cash your checks, good luck getting anything when you are in trouble. Not to say you shouldn't have it, but if you have more to loose than to gain, then on a purely financial level you should forget it.

I remember in another thread there was mention of a particular company that is offering this kind of insurance for a reasonable cost, I'd like to see their history of paid-out claims on frame business. I assume it's zero. But I'm here to be set straight.

I'm not knocking insurance companies really, they don't want some unquantifiable, unlimited risk, any more than you do, and they have a lot more experience with the contracts.
you're wrong. i can understand your angst, but unless
you can cite a particular example of a policy not being
paid or, (at the very least) stalled, i'd say there is no
reason to knock those who underwrite our coverage.

[Peterpan1]

"you're wrong. i can understand your angst, but unless
you can cite a particular example of a policy not being
paid or, (at the very least) stalled, i'd say there is no
reason to knock those who underwrite our coverage."

Not my point at all. Though, by the way, I am interested if there is a single case of their paying off the coverage in a significant money case. That would be a confidence builder. There are niches that people fill with little claims history, but watch out if that ever changes

My point is that getting written up is totaly different that getting any money. A major part of the purchase is the feeling of joy at getting "covered", particularly in the case of a car or house where the whole deal may hinge on getting the coverage. What you bought though is a pig in a poke until the litigation is over, and good luck with that.

You are in this as a significant portion of your livelyhood (?). A few years back I was almost killed in a work related accident, but what can you do, that's where I make my money. Getting wipped out physically or financially is a hardship, but when you are playing for all the beans, it's something that can happen. On the other hand I have 3 kids, a fully paid house, etc... and it doesn't make any financial sense for me to put all that at risk for a hobbie. The point is to ballance the risk against the reward, since the chance of one coming out whole on the back of the insurance is pretty minimal.

I've been on the not getting paid side, and the paid side of this game, and I think one has to at least consider the possibility that when the bills start riding up the coverage will vapourize. You don't have to believe bad things about your underwriter, just consider that your coverage may not really be there. If it's still worth it to you as a financial issue, that's one situation. At least know that. Where the financial calculations are concerned I don't believe in fairy tales, I may still do it but I want to know the risks.

The other issue for the non-lifer is what happens if a frame fails when the hobbie is no longer around or the insurance coverage being paid. No mater how good they are I wouldn't expectyour coverage to be much good then, the company probably isn't even around.

[e-RICHIE]

Not my point at all. Though, by the way, I am interested if there is a single case of their paying off the coverage in a significant money case. That would be a confidence builder. There are niches that people fill with little claims history, but watch out if that ever changes

My point is that getting written up is totaly different that getting any money. A major part of the purchase is the feeling of joy at getting "covered", particularly in the case of a car or house where the whole deal may hinge on getting the coverage. What you bought though is a pig in a poke until the litigation is over, and good luck with that.
again - i ask you:
is there some case wrt product liability and bicycle
frames that you can cite as an example of a carrier
taking the money and then not paying out after
a settlement is determined to be the route needed?

You are in this as a significant portion of your livelyhood (?). A few years back I was almost killed in a work related accident, but what can you do, that's where I make my money. Getting wipped out physically or financially is a hardship, but when you are playing for all the beans, it's something that can happen. On the other hand I have 3 kids, a fully paid house, etc... and it doesn't make any financial sense for me to put all that at risk for a hobbie. The point is to ballance the risk against the reward, since the chance of one coming out whole on the back of the insurance is pretty minimal.

I've been on the not getting paid side, and the paid side of this game, and I think one has to at least consider the possibility that when the bills start riding up the coverage will vapourize. You don't have to believe bad things about your underwriter, just consider that your coverage may not really be there. If it's still worth it to you as a financial issue, that's one situation. At least know that. Where the financial calculations are concerned I don't believe in fairy tales, I may still do it but I want to know the risks.

The other issue for the non-lifer is what happens if a frame fails when the hobbie is no longer around or the insurance coverage being paid. No mater how good they are I wouldn't expectyour coverage to be much good then, the company probably isn't even around.
again - bicycles are used on the open road, in traffic, and
at speeds that often approach the take-off and landing
speeds of small airplanes. frames should NOT be sold as
someone's hobby. if you sell a frame to anyone (anyone)
without having the proper liability coverage, that is criminal.
if you buy a frame from a builder that has no coverage, and
if that builder either quits or continues on without any coverage,
the client (assuming there is a failure that leads to an injury)
can still make a claim against said builder.
look - this is not quiltmaking or pottery. bicycles are vehicles.
having a discussion in which one finds reasons to avoid being
fully covered, or listening to builders cheap out because coverage
is too costly, is completely irresponsible.
e-RICHIE©™®

[eurotrash666]

the $50k figure came from funk. funk was hanging in there with girvin and gary fisher back in those days. i'm sure it is less for a hobbyist. maybe i can have my friends sign a waiver releasing liability written in proper lawyerese, witnessed by a notary, and the client sworn under oath before god.
the insurance question was a detour from the original intent, to show-and-tell your fixtures.
http://img484.imageshack.us/img484/9419/threaddirectionae6.jpg

[e-RICHIE]

the $50k figure came from funk. funk was hanging in there with girvin and gary fisher back in those days. i'm sure it is less for a hobbyist. maybe i can have my friends sign a waiver releasing liability written in proper lawyerese, witnessed by a notary, and the client sworn under oath before god.
the insurance question was a detour from the original intent, to show-and-tell your fixtures.

there is no way that the annual premium was $50k.
i s'pose i could believe it it were trek or c'dale, but
not for funk. anyway, this bud's for you -

[Peterpan1]

"having a discussion in which one finds reasons to avoid being
fully covered, or listening to builders cheap out because coverage
is too costly, is completely irresponsible."

I didn't say "don't take the coverage". I said don't depend on it. And therefore I can see few reasons to do this kind of work as an amateur even if the work was impecable in every regard. Unless you don't own anything and aren't a likely target for a suit.

My personal experience with insurance is that every single case gets litigated unless it is in a regulated area like car insurance, or the person striving to collect gives up. Industry wide, who knows, but if you take money for a service and the product fails, you may end up responsible for millions of dollars of direct losses in medical and employment/person involved. I broke both legs and the legal bills on this minor if nasty accident where 400K Can. for me alone. My lawyer spent 2 months preparing for the medical depositions alone at 700 dollars an hour... we never were in court. Legal costs were court administered to keep them low. There are no punitive damages in my region, and there is cradle to grave medical coverage (though there are still medical legal expenses). So take all the frame builders serious enough to get insurance and they dump 2 grand into the pot. Does that sound like a business to you? Does that sound like enough dough to pay for anything? Does that cheapo policy sound like "fully covered". Yeah I know there are millions of policy holders in all kinds of businesses. I'm still not getting a warm feeling.

[e-RICHIE]

"having a discussion in which one finds reasons to avoid being
fully covered, or listening to builders cheap out because coverage
is too costly, is completely irresponsible."

I didn't say "don't take the coverage". I said don't depend on it. And therefore I can see few reasons to do this kind of work as an amateur even if the work was impecable in every regard. Unless you don't own anything and aren't a likely target for a suit.

My personal experience with insurance is that every single case gets litigated unless it is in a regulated area like car insurance, or the person striving to collect gives up. Industry wide, who knows, but if you take money for a service and the product fails, you may end up responsible for millions of dollars of direct losses in medical and employment/person involved. I broke both legs and the legal bills on this minor if nasty accident where 400K Can. for me alone. My lawyer spent 2 months preparing for the medical depositions alone at 700 dollars an hour... we never were in court. Legal costs were court administered to keep them low. There are no punitive damages in my region, and there is cradle to grave medical coverage (though there are still medical legal expenses). So take all the frame builders serious enough to get insurance and they dump 2 grand into the pot. Does that sound like a business to you? Does that sound like enough dough to pay for anything? Does that cheapo policy sound like "fully covered". Yeah I know there are millions of policy holders in all kinds of businesses. I'm still not getting a warm feeling.


i think we are talking at cross purposes now.

we agree that one should be responsible and have full coverage
if they choose to take renumeration for a frame(s). what i am
not getting here is that you broadstroke the insurance and legal
profession based on your own personal experience trying to collect
on something that has no relationship whatsoever to a failed
bicycle that caused you some sort of pain and suffering. what i
was looking for was some example within "framebuilding" or the
industry at large that speaks to this generalized broadstroke.
for my part, i am here to say that i've been insured all along and,
thankfully, have never needed it to help a client, but the same
carrier insures my inventory, my property, my building, and any
loss of data should my hard drive vaporize. on each incident where
i made a claim against a loss here, there was never a dispute; they
asked for costs, and pics (when necessary), and a check arrives
making me "whole".

the system works.
e-RICHIE©™®

[DosRenshos]

now start posting fixtures!!!

[DosRenshos]

insur.anzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Thylacine]

Here's my jig. She's Irish. Doubles as a beer holder.

http://www.dance.net:443/dance.net/images/198/san_diego_jig.jpg

[velonomad]

cool! but does she have insurance?
http://ypcommando.com/images/salesman1.jpg

[Peterpan1]

Rotfl

[MRoth]

yeah, i'll take pics tomorrow.

DW

Hey Don,

Did you ever get a chance to take pictures of your alignment system. I'd like to see it.

Thanks.

[DavyD5]

Sorry, got sidetracked with other stuff and forgot all about it....

DW

Yeah, I'd like to see your alignment table also. Please post some pictures.

[MRoth]

Bump to the top. Any pics yet, Don?

[MRoth]

BUMP! We know you're back from Interbike. How about some pictures of the alignment system!? I'm really interested in this.