Classic & Vintage - Got a Shogun today...

I picked up a (I think) Shogun bike with Shimano Deore components today. Can anyone tell me how to find out what the model is?

Funny thing about it is that it says shogun, but it has Haro stickers all over it too. Did maybe Haro rebrand a shogun model or vise-versa?

Thanks in advance for the help.

http://www.quickenotes.com/images/shogun1.jpg
http://www.quickenotes.com/images/shogun2.jpg

Looks very clean! I only know that Shogun was an importer's tradename (Seattle Bike Supply) for a JP import, but don't know who actually built them. I don't think Haro (SoCal, right?) ever had any connection to Shogun and this decalling is most likely the work of a BMX fan who wanted a road bike to reflect his brand loyalty. Thing I've never seen before is the Deore name on road bike friction levers, I thought it only appeared on Mtn. bike parts (I remember early ones that had an "deer antler" motif). How about a few more detail pics?

Thing I've never seen before is the Deore name on road bike friction levers,

Same here.

That bike looks to be in excellent condition.

Is there a model number on the top tube? Tange decal on the seat tube?
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No model name on seat tube, no other badges anywhere besides the Haro and Shogun labels. Here are a couple more pics...

http://www.quickenotes.com/images/crank.jpg

http://www.quickenotes.com/images/badge1.jpg

http://www.quickenotes.com/images/rear.jpg

http://www.quickenotes.com/images/chrome.jpg

You know, the drivetrain components look just a tad nicer then what you would expect on a machine like this (stamped dropouts, 20-30 tubing, etc...).

Could there be a possibility that the Haro-enthuthiast who had this machine before ripped some Deore components off a vintage MTB, popped on a triple (highly unusual on a bike of this caliber, don't you think), and mounted them here? It would explain the shifters as well, for they could very well have been stem levers at one time, simply retrofitted on a downtube clamp by an adventurous bike mechanic.

-Kurt

Yeah, maybe...but I have another theory: I think this may be a "budget" touring bike, sure it has stamped dropouts, but they have 2 eyelets for rack and fenders. And the RD has a hanger which would have to be used on such dropouts, but I've never seen a Mtn. bike with one...I think were seeing a rare early version of Deore as a TOURING powertrain which would jibe with the Tourney AD triple crank...and it's pre-index. If you're lucky, the tubing might actually be a notch above mild steel, looks like the fork is better than average (2 eyelets on it, too).

The Shogun 400 I'm working on also has double eyelets in the back and touring-type bars. Came with pre-index Shimano DRs and stem shifters. Seems to have a better frame-Tange 2 DB chrome-mo.
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Ah, we live and learn, thanks for that. I see our Shogun/Haro doesn't have the Deore triple crank and pedals. Seeing as it's another Shimano crank that uses those honkin' big early Dura Ace style pedal axles, I can guess why.

Your bike is a Shogun CrMo 500. I know because I have one!

It's all original from what I can see (aside from the ugly red bar tape and the ridiculous Haro stickers plastered on it). The stickers cover the name of the bike (Shogun CrMo 500). It's got nice, lugged Tange Champion chromoly steel tubing and solid mid-range touring drivetrain (Deore before it became mountain bike gear). Mine rides great and looks retro-cool. It's my only road bike. I picked it up for peanuts thinking I would get a "real bike" later on, but damm, I really fell in love with the thing and saw no need to replace it. The triple is a godsend on the absurd hills we have here in the Finger Lakes region of upstate NY. It's reasonably light (maybe 25 pounds or so), has strong high-spoke-count wheels, comfortable touring geometry, and solid components. The friction shifting never needs to be adjusted or tuned - this simplicity is wonderful once you get used downtube shifters.

Here's my own Shogun (pic below). I replaced the stem with a much longer one (it was an absurdly short 60mm or so) and put some wider bars on it (44 cm to replace the really narrow 39 cm bars on it originally). I also put a "new" road bike seat on it (was originally from a friend's Trek 1200). Everything else, even the gumwall tires, are original. Don't worry, I replaced the tires soon after this pic, more out of caution than anything. About $50 total for all upgrades, including the new tires, and I had a fine road bike for myself.

As with my bike, the drivetrain of yours looks to be in great shape. Those cranks are made of tough-wearing steel, not aluminum (it's a sport tourer meant for durability). I'm certain that I've put more miles on my bike in the 6 months that I've owned it (about 1000 miles ) than the previous owner did in the 20 years he had it. I figure I'll get at least another 10,000 miles out of it before I have to replace anything aside from chains and tires. We will see...

I hope that helps!
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/TrackSmart/Misc/Shogun2-a-IMG_0115.jpg

Freakin' sweet! Thank you so much for the info!

I bought new tubes and tires, bar tape, and lube today, so my $35 bike is now a $110 project :)

I took a closer look at the cassette tonight after the tire removal, and two of the teeth are worn on the big ring. It shouldn't cause a chain derail though.

Now, Does anyone know where I can get an original decal set for it?

Glad to be of help. I was doing a forum search to see if anybody else out there had an old Shogun as well. Picked mine up about 6 months ago (I guess around the time you picked up yours). It was covered in dust in some guy's garage, but in mint condition. I had been toying with the idea of getting a road bike, but a few things were holding me back. One was the high price of anything reasonable (about $800 to get above the Sora level) and the other was my hatred for compact frame geometry (I dislike the sloping top-tube on aesthetic grounds, but I'm sure I'd get over it with time). Also, it all seemed a little too "serious" looking for my style. I didn't plan to be racing, just enjoying nice long rides around the Finger Lakes region and commuting in nice weather. Don't get me wrong, I could certainly afford an $800 bike, but it seemed like a lot to spend for a bicycle. I can blame my parents for imparting some sense of practicality to me. I couldn't resist when I saw the old shogun selling for peanuts on craigslist. It just has a retro-coolness to it that says "yes, I like to ride, but I'm not one of those gram-counting techno-bike-weenies".

As for your freewheel, Nashbar sells new 6-speed freewheels for about $20 if your old one is shot. As does Harris Cyclery http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/freewheels.html#6. Of course, your shifters are non-indexed, so you might want to put a 7-speed on there if you were to replace it. The derailleur will handle it just fine. Just be sure to get a 7-speed chain to match the slightly narrower sprockets. If you go online, you will also be surprised to find a wide selection of 27 x 1.25" tires available (I was surprised anyway). I am using the Nashbar-branded kevlar road tires ($6 each when I bought them on sale). They have held up well to the miles I've put on them. I've only changed one tube so far in about 1000 miles.

Oh, other interesting stuff. If you look at the components on your bike, you'll find that it's 100% made in Japan stuff. The "Via" listed on the hubs are the factory in Japan that they were made in. In other words, it's much higher quality bike than the stuff that came out soon after (when manufacturing shifted over to less expensive places as the Yen heated up). It's not collectable (aka it's not worth anything), because nobody knows the brand, but it's still a great Japanese-made "sport tourer" that should serve you well. If you measure the geometry, you'll notice the long touring type rear triangle. A very comfy geometry for long rides with stable handling. It has eyelets for fenders and racks. Strangely, it only has mounts for a single bottle cage...

Another note: Don't use 1" tires on those rims. I tried them out (a friend had them from an old racing-style bike) and they would not stay seated on the rim at full pressure. You'd get bulges where the tire would be unseating from the rim making it seem like you had a flat-spot on the rim. These are wider touring-style rims and should take 1 1/4" tires ideally. You could probably get away with 1 1/8". However, 1" does not work. In fact, it's just not safe.

Just wanted to warn you in case you were thinking to put the skinnest tires you could find on it...

Good advice. The tires that came on it are 1 1/8, but they don't sell that at my LBS. So i got 1 1/4 bontragers. I'm the type of guy that likes to play it safe, and wouldn't normally buy anything that was a different size from what came on it originally, so 1 inch was definitely out of the question.

I did notice that everything says japan on it, even the frame has a sticker just above the BB (in the same style as the shogun stickers) that says simply, "japan".

The reason i got this is basically so i can have a road bike (i can't afford $800 for an entry level anything), and also something to tinker with during the long illinois winter. Right now I ride a Trek 7100 (hybrid), and i am really intrested in seeing what a road bike will do. Sounds like I got a good deal on this one.

Thanks again for the advice.

Thanks for the clarification on VIA! I'm just passing on the information given to me by some other bike experts (a.k.a. they sold Shogun bikes back in the day, along with other Japanese models). Maybe I misremembered/misinterpreted what they had said. Or maybe Sheldon Brown has it wrong? I found this on these forums which supports VIA as code name for a production facility (below). At the end of the day it's unimportant and I certainly have no first hand knowledge to say who is right so I defer to your expertise. I do know that it's shimano and made in Japan. Solid, reliable stuff is the verdict by all that I've talked to. The Deore stuff on the bike was meant to be their long-distance touring group so it makes sense for the components to be simple and solid.


The serial is pretty simple but informative on shimano stuff.
RSX --- HB --- A410------------- VIA
(series) (hub)(sub designator)(production facility)
http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-97029.html


I believe the rest of the interpretation is still good, even if the VIA part is questionable.

The main thing I've learned in the 6 months/1000 miles of riding one of these is that they are nice riding, super-low-maintenance bikes. The simplicity of the componentry (aka the friction shifters and sturdy steel drivetrain) make it a "just add air and oil" kind of bike of bike. The design is also very distinctive with it's golden headbadge and accents around the lugs. It wasn't a lightweight racer by any stretch, but still fairly light. About 25 lbs based on my somewhat suspect measurement with a bathroom scale (aka weighing me, then me plus the bike). Certainly much lighter than my Trek mountain bike. The trek weighs in around 32 pounds according to spec sheets and the shogun is at least 4-5 pounds lighter, probably more. So I'd put 28 pounds as a max on it's potential weight. Not bad considering entry-level Sora road bikes are around 23/24 pounds.

If you have any more info for us, that would be great. Like why this bike has touring geometry and eyelets for racks and fenders, but only has braze-ons for a single water bottle cage!

Just some (slightly) educated guesses: the move to multiple water-bottle braze-ons was gradual. I have an early "true" touring model Holdsworth that only has one bottle mount. Demand for more bottles produced the double and then triple mounts on touring, Mtn. bikes and even some Tri bikes (always wondered why you'd want extra water on a triathalon). This model was probably considered a Sports Tourer, so one that would be used for shorter faster trips and less luggage, including fluids. A true full touring rig would probably have cantilever bosses, 40-spoke wheels, even longer wheelbase and a lower BB. Caveat: there are many exceptions to all the above "rules". One more: I have bought 5,6, and 7 spd. freewheels from Nashbar, and certain of their housebrand FWs were OK quality, but I got some cheap Chinese junk that was truly horrible, so quality varies depending on where they sourced the FWs of a particular batch. The Indonesian Shimano that Sheldon/Harris sell seems to be much more reliably good quality, IMHO and limited experience.

Yeah, the "experts" I had talked to previously called it a "sport tourer" (that's how they were advertised back in the day, apparently).

I wish they still made this style of bike for those of us who like the touring geometry with its stable handling, yet don't need a true touring bike. It's basically a rider's bike meant to soak up the miles. I even like the wide 1 1/4" tires. I think it's far more effective than a carbon fiber fork at damping road imperfections.

By they way pgaulrapp, I use this bike for long rides (30-50 miles) as well as commuting in fair weather. It's great. For poor conditions I use my mountain bike to commute (I've got fenders for it). I might pick up some old-school fenders for the Shogun and make it an all-weather commuter, too.

Last thing - You'll notice that the stems on these bikes are absurdly short (for short Japanese men?). Depending on your height, it may not be well suited to riding in the drops at first. Once I got a longer stem, it was pure comfort. I spent 85% of my time in the drops now. My commute is about 5-10% faster on the road bike than the mountain bike with slicks. Not a huge difference, but I really enjoy the ride on the Shogun.

Get that sucker fitted well. First seat height. Then seat forward-rear position. Then, finally the stem length.

Enjoy the ride!

fitting comes later :) Right now, i have to figure out how to take off those Haro decals. They're individual letters, so there's a lot of work in my future.

Oh man. That stinks. Hopefully they'll come off with a little alcohol or "goo gone". I've used the goo gone stuff, by the way, it doesn't seem any more effective than plain old rubbing alcohol. It just costs more money. Neither worked well on the old AAA stickers stuck to the bumper of my car.

Glad to know there's a fellow Shogun 500 rider out there. I have yet to see another bike like mine in person.

Before you resort to solvents, try heat on the decals. A hairdryer set to high and played over the decals will often soften the adhesive as well as the vinyl and let you peel them off in one clean pull. Then you might only have a little residue to clean off with a solvent, and Cirtasolv, Goo-Gone, or WD40 are usually good for this, really stubborn stuff can take lighter fluid (basically Naptha), but none of these *should* cause any harm to cured paint.

too late. i've already decided to just repaint the entire frame.

Well, you could still remove the stickers. From the looks of it, the paint on the bike is okay. Nothing a little black nail polish couldn't fix in the spots where it is scratched.

A spray-paint job will certainly make the bike look much worse. However, if you prepped the frame really well and had it professionally painted, I'm sure it would look amazing. And you could pick your colors, too. It just didn't sound like you were set to drop any real money into this bike. I just hope you're not planning a spray-paint job. That would be a shame.

Best of luck with your new ride, however you decide to customize it!

Had the same bike as the original poster, mine was way too tall for me, but the price was too good to pass up, had all deore components, transferred everything over to a bare frame I picked up.
The Shogun was a very nice riding bike, but way too tall like I said, but everything else was perfect, once seat and bars were lowered, and I was moving it was great, stopping/starting was a pain though.
still have the deore rd and the cranks on my bike.

rear hub is a very quiet 6 speed, love it.

ken.

You're right, i don't want to spend real money on it. I've never had a road bike before, and this one was at a "hey, try out road biking" price. I just didn't want the haro stickers on there anymore. Tried the hair dryer, and it worked really fast!

You're right, i don't want to spend real money on it. I've never had a road bike before, and this one was at a "hey, try out road biking" price. I just didn't want the haro stickers on there anymore. Tried the hair dryer, and it worked really fast!


Excellent. I'm glad you didn't go the ghetto-paint-job route. That's no way to treat a bike, even if it is old...

Had the same bike as the original poster, mine was way too tall for me, but the price was too good to pass up, had all deore components, transferred everything over to a bare frame I picked up.
The Shogun was a very nice riding bike, but way too tall like I said, but everything else was perfect, once seat and bars were lowered, and I was moving it was great, stopping/starting was a pain though.
still have the deore rd and the cranks on my bike.

rear hub is a very quiet 6 speed, love it.

ken.


So you gave up that sweet lugged chromoly frame with the gold accents! How could you! ;)
Hopefully the frame found a good home with someone who could actually ride it. And I agree about the components on this bike. Really solid stuff. Not fancy or feather-light, but reliable and pretty darn smooth. Later.

Freakin' sweet! Thank you so much for the info!

I bought new tubes and tires, bar tape, and lube today, so my $35 bike is now a $110 project :)

I took a closer look at the cassette tonight after the tire removal, and two of the teeth are worn on the big ring. It shouldn't cause a chain derail though.

Now, Does anyone know where I can get an original decal set for it?



Was riding my bike and remembered you said something about some worn gears. I hope you weren't talking about the teeth that are supposed to be shorter than the rest - those are to allow for easier shifting (i.e. a place that allows the chain to drop down to a lower gear). You may have some legitimately worn teeth, but just thought I'd put that out there just in case that was what you were seeing...

Any way, that's all. Later.

I've been planning on fixing up a Shogun frame for a while and wanted to ask some advice before I sink some serious time and money into it into a singlespeed -- It seems mostly the same as the ones that are being described here, but it's a 100 (maybe says 700, can't tell because its an odd-looking font) High Tensile Steel frame. I know this is a lower grade of steel-- but is this something that will still go the distance like the cro-mo ,even if its a little clunkier, or does the frame make it a certified POS? I figure I'll put about $250 into building it up as opposed to buying a ready-to go singlespeed at the LBS for $450.

I've been planning on fixing up a Shogun frame for a while and wanted to ask some advice before I sink some serious time and money into it into a singlespeed -- It seems mostly the same as the ones that are being described here, but it's a 100 (maybe says 700, can't tell because its an odd-looking font) High Tensile Steel frame. I know this is a lower grade of steel-- but is this something that will still go the distance like the cro-mo ,even if its a little clunkier, or does the frame make it a certified POS? I figure I'll put about $250 into building it up as opposed to buying a ready-to go singlespeed at the LBS for $450.


Hi There. You wouldn't be the first to turn one of these guys into a fixed gear or single speed. The horizontal dropouts would work well for this. Check this one out:
http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/2006/jan/bgriswold_ricochet.htm

My own shogun has a lugged and butted Tange Champion chromoly frame, which is pretty darn nice. Your high-tensile steel version is lower on the food chain, but I'm sure the frame will last another few decades as long as it doesn't have any serious rust (superficial rust spots are fine).

Should you use it? Well, that's easy to answer once you know what you want:

1) Do you care about weight-weenie stuff or just want a single speed to enjoy without breaking the bank? If you just want a fun ride, yeah, there's nothing wrong with a high-tensile frame. It probably weighs about 1/2 pound more than a butted chromoly frame and two pounds more than aluminum - figure 6 lbs or so for your frame. If weight is a concern, you can pick up cheap aluminum frames. There's a 3.8 lb aluminum model for only $40 at Chuck's bikes: http://www.chucksbikes.com/store/

2) Does the frame fit you well? If not, don't bother with it. If it does fit, and you are not a weight-weenie, sure use what you've got and save a few bucks. It'll be a fun project.

3) What's your style? If you like the old-school style of the frame, by all means, get it on the road with some new parts. If new and slick is your style, just spend a few bucks more on an off-the-shelf single speed or get an inexpensive aluminum frameset to build up.


Have fun!

Just to add more Shogun info: this weekend, I bought a Shogun 200 off craigslist. It seems like a low-end sport tourer, made of Tange 900 cromoly with Shimano components. It rides quite nicely.

Does anyone know anything about "Takagi Tourney ST" 40-52 cranksets? I noticed pgaulrapp's pic showed an "AD" model. Mine is different: it has no spider! The chainrings are bolted to one another. TrackSmart said the crank was made of tough steel for durability, but I wonder if mine is cheaper and might be worth replacing with something lighter and more upgradeable (even a triple, perhaps).

Thanks for the advice- with that in mind, I'll probably just go ahead and order the parts and build up the shogun-- putting it together should be an adventure, and if it all works out well I'll be able to ride the product of my own blood sweat and tears.

Thanks for the advice- with that in mind, I'll probably just go ahead and order the parts and build up the shogun-- putting it together should be an adventure, and if it all works out well I'll be able to ride the product of my own blood sweat and tears.


Glad to hear it. I think fixing up an old-school frame is definitely in the single-speed spirit, too. It'll definitely be 'yours' if you build it yourself. You'll probably learn a lot, too.

Be sure to come back to this page and post a photo of the results!

hackybiker,

Your Shogun 200 sounds like my Shogun Custom Sport. Ca you post some pics?

You can see mine in this thread:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=251917&highlight=shogun

hackybiker,

Your Shogun 200 sounds like my Shogun Custom Sport. Ca you post some pics?

You can see mine in this thread:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=251917&highlight=shogun



Mine is not a Shogun 200, but a Shogun 500 (my old photo link is dead from earlier in the thread). I like that this thread is still picked up as one of the few "shogun" threads under a search of BF. It's tough to find info about this little known brand.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/TrackSmart/Bike%20Stuff/Shogun_500.jpg

Detail photos of the Shogun 500 (for others searching for Shogun info in the near future...):

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/TrackSmart/Misc/Shogun6-LuggedFrame.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/TrackSmart/Misc/IMG_0092-DeoreTouringShifters.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/TrackSmart/Misc/3-TangeNo5.jpg

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/shimano1982/images/26.jpg

I was actually referring to hackybiker's 200 but it looks like he sold it from his blog. Your 500 is certainly a nice all-arounder bike capable of anything. Funny thing is my Custom Sport has mostly Shimano but has Sugino cranks... I guess at that time, Shimano was not into making cranks.

Bumping it up again :).

Weird: my Shogun Cr-Mo 500 has front and rear rack braze-ons, but none for a water bottle holder. Hence a badly scratched frame from the loose clamps for the current holder. Huh. I want water bottle braze-ons <stomping foot>.

My seriel number is M2E19918, so I'm assuming it's an '82. Why no water bottle braze-ons? I will now pout.

I know, it's the wrong side of the bike, but here you can witness the lack of braze-ons. I'm going to make this bike purty, but in the meantime, here it is... braze-on-less.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4124/4958373498_6c4b79f1c0.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/53355278@N06/4958373498/)
shogun9 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/53355278@N06/4958373498/) by snarkypup (http://www.flickr.com/people/53355278@N06/), on Flickr

That's odd. My Shogun 500 has braze-ons for a single water bottle. You can see the screws in post #34. Look just below the last 'N' in Shogun on the downtube. For long rides, I sometimes wish the bike had two sets for two bottles. But I guess I should be grateful for the one! Otherwise, the frames look similar, though I can't tell if your seat stays are attached near the seat post with a flattened part that is welded on... Wish I had a picture handy. EDIT: Found a better photo online. This is what the seat stays look like.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1393/4722557816_1e2f7ce1a7_o.jpg

That's odd. My Shogun 500 has braze-ons for a single water bottle. You can see the screws in post #34. Look just below the last 'N' in Shogun on the downtube. For long rides, I sometimes wish the bike had two sets for two bottles. But I guess I should be grateful for the one! Otherwise, the frames look similar, though I can't tell if your seat stays are attached near the seat post with a flattened part that is welded on... Wish I had a picture handy. EDIT: Found a better photo online. This is what the seat stays look like.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1393/4722557816_1e2f7ce1a7_o.jpg

Mine don't look like that at all! You can see them more clearly here (if you blow up the photo a bit). They look like the stay just sort of ended at the down tube. Weird. I wonder if mine was some odd custom build or something. But who would deliberately make a touring bike without a water bottle braze-on?

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4145/4985060243_9563742784.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/53355278@N06/4985060243/)
shogun3 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/53355278@N06/4985060243/) by snarkypup (http://www.flickr.com/people/53355278@N06/), on Flickr

Mine don't look like that at all! You can see them more clearly here (if you blow up the photo a bit). They look like the stay just sort of ended at the down tube. Weird. I wonder if mine was some odd custom build or something. But who would deliberately make a touring bike without a water bottle braze-on?


Yes, yours is definitely a different frame based on the seat stay welds. You've got pin-stripes on the top-tube, too. And very different chain rings, along with a chain guard.

The other components in the photo look the same (Deore derailleurs, Tourney crank arms). And I can see the side of the Tange Champion sticker on the frame. So yeah, I'm going to guess it's a model-year difference. Or different "batches".

Either way, enjoy the ride - bottle braze-ons or not!

Be sure to post a photo when you "pretty it up". I'd be interested to see what kind of changes you end up making.

Be sure to post a photo when you "pretty it up". I'd be interested to see what kind of changes you end up making.

Oh I will, don't worry. I'm going to be too thrilled to keep them to myself! :)