Northeast - Where are the MD people's

It seems like the most likely route is to just head down Falls Road the whole way to Druid Hill -- ?

Falls Rd is good but south of Cold Spring use the side streets to get to Roland Ave (Falls Rd gets extra nasty in this section (Providence St goes thru Roland Water Tower Park to get to Roland.)) At 36th St (The Avenue in Hamden) turn left. Turn right at Keswick. Turn right at Wyman Park Dr. There will be a side path on your left after the parking lot and the Jones Falls Trail head you can use this if you like (I have always found the traffic light so it should not matter.) This will get you into the Park at grade and has the easiest climbing out of the Jones Fall stream valley that I know of.

I went out today to attend a lecture at UMBC (The Built Environment and Physical Activity.) Dang if I could find the building was supposed to go to. I asked for directions and they were just flat wrong so I ended up riding around for an hour. I guess it could have been worse on a day like today.

If anyone is interested in my adventure http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/Lost-at-UMBC

there is a 2 mile climb on this ride!

I'm inputting the ride into my GPS now and that 2 mile climb is only 312 foot elevation gain, if my math is correct that's a 3% grade, hard but not a killer.

Since Charley can’t make I was sort of hoping you could as NoRacer drops me like a rock. Besides I can ride walking pace up hills (or should say I do ride walking pace up hills.;) )

Barry, if I don't get up in time for the DCRAND ride, I'll be there.

I'm still coughing a little bit, but my brains are no longer draining out my sinuses. I may have lost my mind since I probably shouldn't be doing a century in and around the Catoctin Mountain Park not fully recovered. Oh well. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. <he types. while suppressing the next cough>

What are you guys wearing tomorow? The past couple of weeks its been pretty cold and I have worn polypro long johns under my tights. It's going to be warmer tomorow and was wondering if I can get away with just wearing one layer on my legs. I don't have leg warmers, so that's not an option in the morning. We are going out at 9:30-10am

What are you guys wearing tomorow? The past couple of weeks its been pretty cold and I have worn polypro long johns under my tights. It's going to be warmer tomorow and was wondering if I can get away with just wearing one layer on my legs. I don't have leg warmers, so that's not an option in the morning. We are going out at 9:30-10am


Hard to say. Down into the 30's I just wear my heavyweight tights. Above 40 I wear my lightweight tights. Below 30 I wear some long underwear under my tights.

My tights are pretty warm overall. Been very happy with them.

-D

Weather.com is showing a wind chill factor so my *guess* is it is going to feel colder on the bike then reported temperatures. A rough guess is we will be riding 35-41degrees on the low end add 5 degrees if you’re optimistically voting for warmer weather.

FWIW I can get away with overdressing one half of my body as long as I can compensate with the other half.

I'm planning on leg warmers under bib shorts, base layer top (Under Armor Cold Gear), Gore lycra/spandex/neoprene jersey-jacket, neoprene booties, & Gore gloves with polypro inserts to start. Oh, and a bandana under the helmet.

I'm planning on leg warmers under bib shorts, base layer top (Under Armor Cold Gear), Gore lycra/spandex/neoprene jersey-jacket, neoprene booties, & Gore gloves with polypro inserts to start. Oh, and a bandana under the helmet.

NoRacer,

That is about the level of cover I plan on using. Although I don't have the leg warmers, so I plan to use thin polypro longjohns under my biking tights. I'll wear some whiking fabric under my jersey and then a LG heavy jersey-jacket over top, noprene booties & some Pearl Izumi heavy gloves. I'll probably wear my thin baclava under the helmet

If I overreacted, please accept my apology. Your earlier post sounded to me like you were taking issue with cyclists using Falls Road when in fact, Falls Road from Hillside south most likely gets more bikes/hours of use than any other road in Metro Baltimore.

No apology necessary -- true meanings getting tangled up in the ether is just one of those Internet hazards, and you're right, my post wasn't very clear!

What are you guys wearing tomorow? The past couple of weeks its been pretty cold and I have worn polypro long johns under my tights. It's going to be warmer tomorow and was wondering if I can get away with just wearing one layer on my legs. I don't have leg warmers, so that's not an option in the morning. We are going out at 9:30-10am

Like saddles, clothing choices are very individual!

I have two weights of tights - both without chamois -which I wear thusly:

Bottom half:

High temp for the day 35* +/- or less....wear Assos heavy bibtights over bibknickers (toasty!)
High temp for the day 45* +/- or less.... sub shorts for knickers
High temp for the day 55* .... light tights over shorts
High temp.................65* .... leg warmers

Top half:
..............................35* +/- ............. Craft sleeveless undershirt + thermal long sleeve + wool cycling jacket + wind jacket
..............................45*.... same less sleeveless undershirt
..............................55*.. long sleeve thermal under short sleeve jersey + wind jacket
..............................65*... arm warmers

In cool/cold weather I always take the wind jacket to warm up in then usually take it off. Nothing worse that being far from home and getting cold late in a ride with nothing to put on...

Nothing worse that being far from home and getting cold late in a ride with nothing to put on...


You're telling me! That is exactly what happened to me today during the century up and around Catoctin Mountain Park.

Stay tuned for details.

Here's a few pictures that I took, just to pique your interest:

The Visitor Center (my Giant is on the left side of the sign)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/NoRacer/DSC00570.jpg

Crista and Chuck's Tandem
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/NoRacer/DSC00571.jpg

Some of the folks on the ride (there was about 20 of us)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/NoRacer/DSC00572.jpg

I guess you got up for the ride. How was is? I read your bug report about the ibike. that sucks. I would love to know the route you took.

I didn't get out today :( Had to work all morning. Got home at 2pm. Took my daughter to the park for awhile and then got home, got them baths, and bedtime.

I'll spin on the rollers some tonight.

-D

Here's the elevation and grade profile from my iBike:


Notice the 16 percent climbs!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/NoRacer/elevationandgrade.jpg

NoRacer - Looks like a find ride today!

We rode almost 30miles today south of Davidsonville. Nice area with a couple hills. I'm still trying to get my "sealegs" on the hills.

Here is our ride from my bike at MotionBased (http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/invitation/email/accept.mb?senderPk.pkValue=109527&unitSystemPkValue=2&episodePk.pkValue=2165977)

Cheers

5AM
----
Alarm goes off. I get up, fix coffee and start getting dressed for the ride while the coffe is dripping.

5:15AM
------
Pour a cup of coffee, continue getting dressed, pack change of clothes, bike instrumentation, directions to the ride.

6AM
----
Load stuff into motor vehicle. Head to Royal Farm Store for Gatorade, PowerBars, and sausage, egg, & cheese sandwhich for breakfast.

6:15AM
------
On my way. Next stop, Monocacy Middle School, Frederick, MD.

7:20AM
------
Arrive at school--4th person there. Others arrive soon after.

7:46AM
-------
We're on our way.

There's seven big climbs on this ride:

- Catoctin Hollow Rd
- Park Central Rd
- Iron Springs Rd
- Cold Springs Rd
- Old Pen Mar and Pen Mar Rds
- Garfield Rd
- Putman Rd

Unfortunately, we could not do the climb on Park Central Rd. It would have been the next climb after we stopped in at the Catoctin Mountain Park Visitor Center. The Park closed the road due to severe icing.

Areas we travelled thru:

Mountaindale
Cunningham Falls State Park
Foxville (detour around Park Central Rd)
Sabillasville
Across the Pennsylvania line to Blue Ridge Summit
Charmian
Fairfield
Marshall
Lunch at Nan & Pap's on South Mountain
Michaux State Forest
Rouzerville
Pen MAr
Cascade
South Mountain State Park
Garfield
Mountaindale (again)
White Rock
Sunset Hill

While on Iron Springs and Cold Springs Roads it started to rain, then sleet, then snow. By the time we reached lunch break, my jacket and helmet was snow covered. Yeehaw. :rolleyes: It sucked! Now we were wet and on top of a mountain and many of us did not come prepared with waterproof clothing. We thought it was going to be nice! Luckily, by the time we finished lunch, the sun made an appearance. But, it was still chilly up there.

A few miles down the road we hit the next climb. After that, and along with some solar loading, I warmed up.

As soon as they are uploaded, I'll supply a link to photos taken by one of members of the DC RAND club. They'll include some of the climbing in the snow.

Here's the link to the DC RAND photo's from today's ride:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wabeck/sets/72157594568275462/

I'm the guy in the Rabobank colored helmet with a red bandana underneath of it.

An epic!!!!

That has got to be the most beautiful cycling in Maryland if not the entire east coast. The Civil War Century does a couple of those climbs but not all of them. I once passed a motorcycle descending Catoctin Hollow...boy was he surprised!

Congrats on surviving a great ride and cool pics!

An epic!!!!

Congrats on surviving a great ride and cool pics!

Thanks, galen. There were some climbs that I thought would never end. You look up and think you see a flat coming up, put your head down for a couple of seconds, look up and again and it's still going up.

These are great climbs and the reward is the descent. When you are coming off the mountain, the descent just keeps coming. This is when I grab the wheel of the tandem, as Chuck and Crista are not squeamish about descending at all. The three of us scream down the hills.

On a couple of the climbs, someone else would have the wheel of the tandem. Chuck & Crista would start their descent and they'd get a gap. I try to jump, but no matter what, there's no way I can get on their wheel. You must be on their wheel and accelerating with them or they're gone. Fun stuff.

One of my best rides out there was a 75 miler I did on my tandem with a very accomplished stoker. It was in the early fall and we were by ourselves. She was tour guide and used parts of a BBC ride and also just made it up as we went along. That day we climbed Catoctin Hollow and Park Central. We descended Rte 77 feathering the brakes at about 55 MPH.

Here's the last item of my report that was missing... a map:

http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/19918

The elevation profile won't be completed by Bikely until tomorrow sometime--they state 24 hours.

According to GPS on the scene, the climbing for this route is 8900ft, which concurs with my iBike.

Here's the last item of my report that was missing... a map:

http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/19918

The elevation profile won't be completed by Bikely until tomorrow sometime--they state 24 hours.

According to GPS on the scene, the climbing for this route is 8900ft, which concurs with my iBike.

Nice

I'm inputting the ride into my GPS now and that 2 mile climb is only 312 foot elevation gain, if my math is correct that's a 3% grade, hard but not a killer.

THC, did you do this ride? How was it?

Here's the last item of my report that was missing... a map:

http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/19918

The elevation profile won't be completed by Bikely until tomorrow sometime--they state 24 hours.

According to GPS on the scene, the climbing for this route is 8900ft, which concurs with my iBike.

I did most of that ride a few years back with the BBC, except it was only 85 miles with the same elevation gain. The first climb is about 2 miles into the ride as I recall - a real ballbuster. My buddy Dave Little only brought a 23 for a low gear and had to resort to weaving across the road! But the most hilarious part was this guy on a titanium recumbent. We hit the first climb and there are about 30 folks on the ride. Dave and another guy attack the hill. I am riding temp, figuring I don't know the ride so better to conserve. Well, the guy on the recumbent just plain runs out of gear about 2/3 of the way up the climb and.... falls over in the middle of the road!

EDIT: Actually, now that I look closer at the map I think we went up Hamburg Rd. first.

Don,

I met one of your Team in Training members this weekend at the Bike Doctor in Easton. I was in their picking up some things and she 'taller gal' was in with her Cannondale. Nice chatting with her. Do you have a link to the club or any info?

Don,

I met one of your Team in Training members this weekend at the Bike Doctor in Easton. I was in their picking up some things and she 'taller gal' was in with her Cannondale. Nice chatting with her. Do you have a link to the club or any info?

If you go to my TNT page (http://www.active.com/donate/tntmd/tntmdDHaller) and click the link in the upper left corner that says Visit Team In Training, it will take you to the Maryland Chapter. If you decide this is something you would like to do, allow me to sign you up, or put my name in as a reference. This way I get a credit to my fundraising efforts. Thanks for asking!!

The woman you met at Bike Doctor, did she say she was riding the Tahoe ride in June? Blonde hair? or Brunette? I'm trying to think who comes over from the shore? I know we have two, but the shore riders have been training over there for the past two weeks.

You're telling me! That is exactly what happened to me today during the century up and around Catoctin Mountain Park.

Stay tuned for details.

Very tough ride. You were blowing snot balls on Thurs and ride this on Sunday! Didn't look too pleasant. I got a kick out of Pauls Pix w/ the Chucks. Did he complete the ride? Those are some serious conditions for cotton tennis shoes. It was really cold and windy down low I can only imagine what it was like up top.

^^^^^^^^^^
The ride was Saturday. I felt better. Today's a different story, but I commuted in to work on bike anyway.

Pauls Pix w/ the Chucks?

Some folks did not go to lunch. They wanted down off of the mountain asap. Everyone else who made it to lunch finished the ride. Also, there were options to shorten the ride. I think some people took that option, especially when the weather started to turn (whimps!) ;)

^^^^^^^^^^

Pauls Pix w/ the Chucks?



There's a pix in your link of the dc rands ride. One of the guys was wearing a pair of tennis shoes(cotton) called chucks(taylors). They are a comfortable, sitting around a fire type shoe. For us old guys: they were THE best basketball shoe 40 years ago(before leather). Not exactly a cold weather, long ride sort of shoe. I will be impressed if he made he whole ride

There's a pix in your link of the dc rands ride. One of the guys was wearing a pair of tennis shoes(cotton) called chucks(taylors). They are a comfortable, sitting around a fire type shoe. For us old guys: they were THE best basketball shoe 40 years ago(before leather). Not exactly a cold weather, long ride sort of shoe. I will be impressed if he made he whole ride

Oh!! Duh! Yeah, Paul made it. In fact, I was on his wheel for part of the descent down the mountain until the tandem caught up. Promptly, I grabbed their wheel before they could gap me. I followed them all of the way back to the school (the start location).

THC, did you do this ride? How was it?
The ride was fun and ~20 people showed up. The 2 mile climb was a real pace breaker but nothing to get off the bike for. My average just after this hill was 11.2mph and by the end of the ride it was 12.8mph (we also had to walk a section of Patapsco Park as it was ice covered so the average is lower then normal.) As usual I slowly made my way from the front of the pack to the back as the ride wore on. So the last half the ride it was me and another rider in the back, she wanted to skip the last food stop and I agreed but latter bonked a few miles before the end of the ride. So I sat on a bench on the BWI trail and recouped for a bit and then decided to go out and eat.

So after having a good lunch I decided to run down to Annapolis on the B&A trail and on my way back on the northern end of the spur that connects the B&A with the BWI a cyclists was making the sharp right off the BWI onto the spur and took the turn very wide and I reacted to avoid the oncoming cyclist but forgot for a moment about the huge crack in the pavement by the storm drain. Well it grabbed my front tire and I went down. I’m perfectly fine but my front wheel isn’t. Anyway I got in 80 miles at that point so I got a good amount of riding in. The problem was then waiting an hour for the police to show up so I could report that accident and waiting another hour for one of my friends to get home so I could get a rescued. The good news is Joe’s had my wheel in stock so I am up and running again.

Unrelated news I will be in DC attending some training courses for non-profit organizations Wednesday thru Friday so I get to play bike commuter in DC for awhile.

...on my way back on the northern end of the spur that connects the B&A with the BWI a cyclists was making the sharp right off the BWI onto the spur and took the turn very wide and I reacted to avoid the oncoming cyclist but forgot for a moment about the huge crack in the pavement by the storm drain. Well it grabbed my front tire and I went down.
...



Glad to hear that you came away relatively unscathed, physically.

T The problem was then waiting an hour for the police to show up so I could report that accident and waiting another hour for one of my friends to get home so I could get a rescued.



bummer about the crash. A police report!! Why did you have to fill one out? Did the other biker wait? Is someone legally responsible for this? Glad you didn't get hurt.

I filled out a police report so 1) there would be some urgency to fixing this and 2) so I could get DPW to pay for my wheel. The other biker did not wait but did ask several times if I was ok.

Other details: this storm drain has two removable cement blocks for cleaning. The outside block does not sit well and rocks back and forth (I assume it walks a bit while it does this.) And it looks like they tried to use tar to glue it in place. This section of the trail is essentially two sidewalks side by side with the outer sidewalk having this storm drain “feature.” So if you are the only one on the trail the crack is out of your way but in two directional mode the crack is dead center with that half of the trail.

Just another example of why I stay the hell off of MUP's. Roads are way safer. Dealing with same-direction traffic is safer.

Just another example of why I stay the hell off of MUP's. Roads are way safer. Dealing with same-direction traffic is safer.

+1

The only serious crash I have had in the last 10 years was on the B&A trail. Sent me over the handlebars.

-D

If you are trying to dispel the notion that MUPs are safer then the roads I agree with that sentiment but there is information out there that hints that roads/MUPs are near the same for safety, just different sh*t to deal with. And there have been plenty of cyclists that have been downed because of poor storm drains on the road. Personally I have replaced more wheels due to pot holes, uneven bridge expansion joints and steel plates on the road then stuff I have encountered on MUPs.

If you are trying to dispel the notion that MUPs are safer then the roads I agree with that sentiment but there is information out there that hints that roads/MUPs are near the same for safety, just different sh*t to deal with. ...

+1

Personally I have replaced more wheels due to pot holes, uneven bridge expansion joints and steel plates on the road then stuff I have encountered on MUPs.

That might have more to do with your extended-wheel-based heavily laden (and high tear weight) ride than with the stuff you list. Or, poor quality wheels or a combination of the two.

And crashing in the road because of a drain grate????? That's just poor cycling skills. I never ride that close to the curb so the grates don't effect me. With a regular bike most of the stuff you list can be jumped without even touching it. I run strait into bridge expansion joints and steel plates on my tandem and it's wheels are fine. But, they are 48 spoke and purpose-built. Worst that ever happens is a pinch-flat and you have to hit something hard and dead center for that to happen (usually a large stone out in the road).

And crashing in the road because of a drain grate????? That's just poor cycling skills. I never ride that close to the curb so the grates don't effect me. With a regular bike most of the stuff you list can be jumped without even touching it.

It's a little tough, when commuting/riding at night on unfamiliar roads to see all road hazards. On rainy night commutes storm drains, pot holes and debris are not as easily recognized. In Relay they recently repaved the roads and put back the old crappy wheel catching drain covers. I couldn't believe it. I thought they were illegal? No??
MUP have a place but not meant for "full tilt" riding. If I want to haul ass I will ride roads if not I'll ride trails, always on the lookout though.

Barry: Where exactly is that section. Is it Stewart ave that crosses I97 then heads towards Sawmill Park?

Barry: Where exactly is that section. Is it Stewart ave that crosses I97 then heads towards Sawmill Park?


I thought he was referring to this side of Sawmill Park (where the marker appears on the map). I usually go down Central skipping that part of the MUP:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/NoRacer/junction.jpg

It's a little tough, when commuting/riding at night on unfamiliar roads to see all road hazards. On rainy night commutes storm drains, pot holes and debris are not as easily recognized.


You are liberally adding a lot of variables to the equation which were not originally stated. Regardless, one would alter one's riding based on the conditions. Just like it would be dumb to practice one's 40K ITT on a nice warm Saturday morning on the North Central Trail, one would be prudent to slow down in the rain and the dark and on unfamiliar roads. When I commuted by bike I rode an old Lotus touring bike and installed 38mm wide touring tires and fenders. I commuted through Baltimore City out to Towson. I could literally ride over anything with that bike.

Where: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=39.16136388888888888888888888888889+-76.64542777777777777777777777777778&layer=&ie=UTF8&z=18&ll=39.161363,-76.645432&spn=0.002641,0.005386&t=k&om=1&iwloc=addr

The specifics of what happens to me and my rig may be different then another set up but road hazards are road hazards and a cyclist has to avoid those. It’s when your options of avoiding those obstacles becomes limited is when accidents happen. The couple people I know who went down because of a gap on the outside of storm drain were experienced riders on a club ride and had limited lateral movement to avoid the situation. People were safely going over the obstacle to the right and to the left so it just snuck up on them. I’ve had a motorist take the lane away from me when they merge back into my lane too soon and having extra space to the right can help avoid an accident unless that extra space is now pot hole city or a hazardous storm grate (happened to me once, avoided the car just to get the pot hole.) Most accidents are a combination of factors so while each factor maybe avoided, in combinations things get harder.

I’ve safely gone over conditions that have flatted my skinny tire friends and they have bunny hoped over things that I have to drastically slow down for, so what’s a hazard or safe can vary per bike and rider.

On some roads the pot holes are in the right tire track, storm grates on the right and sewer covers in the middle of the road, it’s a real slalom course trying to navigate roads like this. Granted there are probably more idyllic roads then idyllic MUPs but stuff happens everywhere which is all I am trying to say.

Where: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=39.16136388888888888888888888888889+-76.64542777777777777777777777777778&layer=&ie=UTF8&z=18&ll=39.161363,-76.645432&spn=0.002641,0.005386&t=k&om=1&iwloc=addr



Ok, so that -is- on the other side of Sawmill Park, but the location I pointed to is the termination point for the B&A. You've been on the BWI trail for about 1/2 a mile. Or, perhaps, some people may think of this as a connector between the B&A and BWI Trails.

So, I guess the other cyclists blew the stop sign at that corner? (stupid place to put a stop sign since there's a little hill there at the corner--guess it's for the motor vehicles coming out of that dead end road that parallels the trail).

but stuff happens everywhere which is all I am trying to say.

Not to make a federal case of this but stuff just doesn't 'happen'. The fast majority of 'stuff' (i.e., collisions/mishaps/etc.) are easily avoidable. Somehow, it's the folks with the 'stuff happens' mentality that have all the 'stuff' happen to them. Coincidence? I think not.

NoRacer: Ok, fine I was I was the BWI trail but not on the loop portion. Blowing the stop sign is hardly descriptive of anyone coming up that hill. I think one problem is the acute angle that the trails merge here, had the other cyclists been able to make their right turn and stay on their half of the trail things would have been fine but as you said had he stopped things would have been ok as well but then again who would really stop on that hill and who yields to traffic going the other way, that’s just another poor design of this section (requiring a wide turn for cyclists going the other way.) But all in all no accident would have happened if it was not for that crack in the pavement.

Galen: If we are to continue this discussion we need to define some framework. There are two ways to look at all the safety information out there; one way is what is to filter what is relevant to “me.” Under this framework you are 100% correct and I am not out to dissuade you from the course you are pursuing. The other framework is to look at the whole picture or what maybe relevant to the lurker. Over half of Baltimore bike crashes happen on quiet residential streets, for you and I these streets are a “no brainier” to safely navigate but the stats say that there is a real safety issue here for on-road cycling. We both believe that the roads do not have to be this dangerous but the problem is how to get the word out to the unwashed masses. So hopefully a better summary on this topic then stuff just happens would be the roads can be a lot safer then what most people believe and the MUPs are more hazardous then what most people believe.

I will also note that we are mixing two types of accidents; one type of accident involves flats, broken spokes, out of true or bent rims. All these are generally caused by road/trail conditions and are generally not considered life threatening nor appear in crash stats but still it is something cyclists want to avoid and these can happen anywhere. The other type of accident involves a threat to life or a potential threat to life. I feel what I experienced on the MUP is in the non life threatening category, while economically it may be more severe then a flat or just a broken spoke this section of trail will be avoided the same way I would avoid a road full of pot holes or that has been recently chipped and tarred. This is what I meant by stuff happens everywhere.

You are liberally adding a lot of variables to the equation which were not originally stated. Regardless, one would alter one's riding based on the conditions. Just like it would be dumb to practice one's 40K ITT on a nice warm Saturday morning on the North Central Trail, one would be prudent to slow down in the rain and the dark and on unfamiliar roads. When I commuted by bike I rode an old Lotus touring bike and installed 38mm wide touring tires and fenders. I commuted through Baltimore City out to Towson. I could literally ride over anything with that bike.

I always feel that variables are part of commuting/riding. In the last 2 weeks I've experienced roads w/ too much salt that made made a few turn slick(felt like sand), pot holes that grow in number and size daily, black ice at unexpected places, the angle of the sun(can motorist see me) and not to mention the main variable...cagers....I'm getting off my soap box.

So hopefully a better summary on this topic then stuff just happens would be the roads can be a lot safer then what most people believe and the MUPs are more hazardous then what most people believe.



Well said. I was going to say; MUPs lull people into a false sense of security. When one lets his guard down....

Either way, there is an entire waste of space called the A&S forum to discuss this stuff. Let's try to not beat each other up in this thread.

-D