Hello all,

I am a delivery driver (pizza) and am a very safe driver and cyclist. We have an epidemic of wrong way cyclists in the area, mainly due to the population of hispanics and kids on BMX bikes in the area. This is a dangerous situation because in many areas you can not see the wrong way cyclist until it is too late... Today I nearly hit one at an intersection.

I had stopped at a 4 way stop, looked to the left (whole side), the the upper right (where traffic would be). We are not programmed to look to the intermediate right because 1. traffic does not go that way ever and 2. When you car is angled for a left turn (which is what I was making) you would have to turn your head > than 90 degrees to even see there - expecially on the very side of the road (on a right I might have seen him). This older mexican on an old 70's road bike cames out of no where, runs the stop sign just as my foot goes the the pedal. All the sudden this guy is right in front of me and I slam my brakes coming about 2 inches from nailing him. It scared the **** out of me...

So here are the questions... first a statement

1. Never run a stop sign right in front of a car, no matter if you are going the right way or not unless the driver acknowledges you.

Questions?

1. How to you deal with wrongway cyclists driving?

2. Whos fault is it really?

3. Is there really a solution to this problem?

Thanks again,
Mandy


Post editied to remove remark about racial profiling that is of little matter to this thread

Here is some information from google on the exact situation.

Turning Vehicles

First, when riding on the wrong side, the danger of getting struck by turning vehicles or by vehicles pulling out onto the road is much greater. The problem here is that when the motorist scans the road, he's looking for vehicles traveling on the right side of the road and in the normal position and does not expect or bother to look for wrong-way cyclists. In keeping with this turning danger, cycling in the correct direction on the sidewalk is nearly twice as dangerous as cycling in the correct direction on the road, but cycling in the wrong direction on the sidewalk is even more dangerous than cycling the wrong way in the street, because the cyclist is even less visible to the motorist. See the Dilemmas of Bicycle Planning.

Here is another link - accident 1B

http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/traffic/car-bike.htm

3. Is there really a solution to this problem (other than imigration reform?).


:eek:

Wow. I was just about to write a post sarcastically calling for the P.C. backlash, then say, "but hey, here's what we'll assume you meant to say", advise smarter choice of words in the future, and then suggest that everyone else please address your actual questions since all that had already been pointed out.

But wow. That's just plain awful.

EDIT: Just saw your asterisked addition. You're down with sharing the road, but not land and/or living areas? [rhetorical "WTF?"]

i don't think you have to deport people to get them to stop riding on the wrong side of the street. if people (whatever nationality or ethnicity) hear that cops are rampage-ticketing bad drivers or wrong-way cyclists, they'll figure out what they need to do to avoid a ticket. maybe you should call the non-emergency police number and complain.

I totally disagree with you.

Cyclists who disobey traffic rules are not usually restricted to any one ethnic group - - "he" can be a "she", white, oriental, black, native Indian, hispanic, arabic, Jew, Chinese, Japanese......etc.

Here in Ottawa, Canada, the population are mostly English and French white descendants, and a lot of them simply ignore the rules of the road - failure to stop at stop signs, riding on the wrong side of traffic, riding on sidewalks and crosswalks (illegal in Canada), no lights at night wearing dark clothes, ......... and virtually no one equip their bikes with bells nor give any turn signals, not even police officers patrolling on bicycles.

Last week, I have a close call with a white cyclist who came straight towards my mini-van on the left turn lane when I am making a left turn at a traffic green light. I still do not have a clue how he managed to ride his bike into a left turn lane at an intersection on a bright afternoon.

Just make sure you have a good insurance agent.

Immigration reform won't change a damn thing, Mandy.

Education will.

Those Latinos ride on the wrong side because that's what they're taught to do, it's what's normal and safer South of the border.

EDIT: I just wanted to say that I'm Mexican...just to negate any anti-PC speech directed toward my post.

^^^ I am mexican too (believe it or not). My mother came here illegally 25 years ago, she is a citizen now. I am sure this is a situation everywhere - and yes I have good insurance.

So, if you don't look right, what do you do about pedestrians who are suppose to be walking (or runners running) against traffic.

You see, I got hit while running by someone who didn't check to the right before making a right turn on red... so, I'm slightly biased against ANY vehicle operator (motor or human powered) who doesn't check BOTH WAYS before proceeding.

:eek:

Wow. I was just about to write a post sarcastically calling for the P.C. backlash, then say, "but hey, here's what we'll assume you meant to say", advise smarter choice of words in the future, and then suggest that everyone else please address your actual questions since all that had already been pointed out.

But wow. That's just plain awful.

EDIT: Just saw your asterisked addition. You're down with sharing the road, but not land and/or living areas? [rhetorical "WTF?"]

It didn't take long for the PC police to jump in. I don't understand how you can feel it is politically incorrect to call a Mexican a Mexican, but have no problem lacing your views with a WTF. Mandy has a much better perspective of the demographics in her area than you. If she chooses to call a Mexican a Mexican, is that deragatory? I don't think so unless you feel a Mexican is beneath you, so perhaps you should reevaluate your perspective Mr. PC. I think Mandy has offered some insight into another problem created by illegals. It is certainly not something I have thought of before. Someone entering this country through a tunnel has much less a chance of learning and understanding our laws than someone entering legally. It's not about immigration, it's about illegal immigartion. Congrats to Mandy for using plain English to clearly identify a problem.

Same problem here, same racial background. I've seen 3 hits and several near misses this summer. All have been Hispanic bike riders on the wrong side of the road, mostly on the sidewalk, ignoring their responsibility to stop and look. Every one of them. If you are willing to violate immigration law, why would you care about traffic laws?

Frankly, I am apalled at this post:

How does anyone know WHERE anyone else is from? By appearance? Give me a break. Was he wearing a big sign that said I am a Mexican immigrant? How does the OP know he isn't Peruvian, Bolivian, Argentinian, Brazillian or...wait a minute...American? It's a prejudicial assumption that the hispanic man riding the wrong way down the street is an immigrant. He may well be, but he also may not and to apply a negative stereotype on this person who may or may not be an immigrant is elitist and bigoted. And his nationality had nothing to do with riding dangerously. I mean, if I were in China, I think I'd recognize the danger of riding toward traffic.

I live in a city that is often cited by experts from around the world as the most racially diverse city in the world. In spite of having a very high number of 1st generation immigrants, there are many who look exactly like them who have been here for a hundred years or more. Only the ignorant would presume they are an immigrant.

Just two days ago while riding in my predominantly Portuguese/Italian community (but also has Chinese, Korean, Jewish, Brazilian, Argentinian, Greek, Jamaican, Trinidadian and Polish populations, among others) I watched as two teenagers rode up the wrong side of the street in the middle of the lane while one was hands-free and talking on his cell-phone. They LOOKED to be Portuguese and they dressed like every other teenager in the neighbourhood. But, should he be deported because they LOOKED Portuguese and riding like a fool? Or should they be be discriminated against because he is a teenager? Perhaps they should be punished for operating a vehicle illegally and dangerous? Their race or heritage had nothing to do with their stupidity just as the OP's race and heritage has nothing to do with her ignorance.

Finally, it is the motorists' responsibility to look everywhere before making a turn, not just where traffic is expected from. A driver must expect the unexpected and regardless of the offense another may commit, if a motorist making a left-turn strikes someone while making a left-turn, they are at fault. The driver must ensure the way is clear BEFORE making the turn.

So, if you don't look right, what do you do about pedestrians who are suppose to be walking (or runners running) against traffic.

You see, I got hit while running by someone who didn't check to the right before making a right turn on red... so, I'm slightly biased against ANY vehicle operator (motor or human powered) who doesn't check BOTH WAYS before proceeding.

I agree. I went out on a ride on Sunday... very early in the morning... very quiet. I was looking forward to a hassle free ride along the beaches... knowing that in hours the area would be filled with drinking drivers.

But to my surprise (but not totally unexpected... after all drivers are drivers) I have to shout at two motorists early on for not even looking. Perhaps they too assumed that no one would be on the roads.

In both cases I was well into the middle of the right lane with autos parked on my right. There were no bike lanes. In both cases the driver of the vehicle pulled up looking straight ahead, then snapped their head to make a quick left look... I mean so quick it was obvious they were only looking for trucks and busses. I yelled at both motorists loudly (my version of horn). Both suddenly did a double take. The first motorist stopped. Then waited and drove on.

The second motorist stopped... then also waited and drove on... and caught me at the next light and then waved in a very friendly way... he was glad I caught him in his quick glance error. As was I. BTW these were two separate incidents... not even on the same street. Apparently folks can be a bit bleary eyed that early.

But the bottom line is that motorists ARE responsible for ensuring that the way is clear BEFORE they hit the gas pedal. Left, Right, peds, cyclists, balls from nowhere... whatever... motorists must be on the alert for anything... Don't forget sidewalks and kids riding bikes... if you fail to look both ways and even down "paths" that you don't consider valid.... you may be about to run into a child that has not even yet learned to ride in the street.

Look everywhere twice... TWO times... if clear, then go. If you as a motorist cannot ensure that your route is clear, you cannot go... period. No "well, the sun was in my eyes" or "I didn't look right...."

Motorists only check the sidewalk immediatly on their right before they proceed, because of the slow speed of pedestrian. That is why it is so dangerous to ride a bike down the side walk in the wrong direction.

Same problem here, same racial background. I've seen 3 hits and several near misses this summer. All have been Hispanic bike riders on the wrong side of the road, mostly on the sidewalk, ignoring their responsibility to stop and look. Every one of them. If you are willing to violate immigration law, why would you care about traffic laws?

Forget the immigration issues... somehow these folks were hit by motorists who did not take the time to ensure their path was clear... the cyclists could just as easily have been kids riding on sidewalks... yet the motorist did not take the time to ensure that their path was clear all around before stepping on the gas.

Sure the cyclists should obey the laws... but a larger issue is that the motorist did not look effectively.

Motorists only check the sidewalk immediatly on their right before they proceed, because of the slow speed of pedestrian. That is why it is so dangerous to ride a bike down the side walk in the wrong direction.

Exactly... but kids do it all the time. Perhaps motorists need to expand their "blinder" vision.

That wrong way cyclist could just as easily be a ball rolling out to the street with a kid behind it.

The hispanic immigrants are at the low end of the pay scale, can't afford cars, but want to work, so being earnest and resourceful they get bikes. Unfortunately they can't afford high speed internet to get on bikeforums and learn proper VC cycling. So when you see all those wrong way cyclists, it's proof that immigrants are an industrious lot who will even put themselves at risk on the roads to get a job.

And of course, many "Mexican" Californians are not immigrants...they were there already when California became part of the USA.

Motorists only check the sidewalk immediatly on their right before they proceed, because of the slow speed of pedestrian. That is why it is so dangerous to ride a bike down the side walk in the wrong direction.

More often than not, motorists will drive THROUGH the crosswalk before stopping, so even if they are going to look it may already be to late.

As for the OP's question "Who's fault would it really be?" (if an accident were to occur) I know that if I ever hit a cyclist while driving, I would consider it my fault no matter what the law said or what the cyclist was doing. Simply saying that the rider was in the wrong would be little consolation to me. As others have pointed out, as a responsible vehicle operator you must be on the lookout (and ready) for anything.

I don't understand how you can feel it is politically incorrect to call a Mexican a Mexican, but have no problem lacing your views with a WTF.

I'm not pretending to be P.C. for one minute, you clod. Did you even so much as read my original post? I was going to try to give Mandy the benefit of the doubt and suggest that we all ignore her specific phrasing and instead tackle the topic of how to address wrong-way cycling.

Then I saw the unnecessary and downright cruel suggestion (poor-taste joke? I hope...) that immigration reform might well be a solution in her area's case but not to the overall problem. I couldn't carry through with my plan when she went and said something like that.

As for the WTF, I meant it exactly as phrased. How can you be concerned with promoting safer cycling practices so that bikes and other vehicles can stand a better chance of peaceful coexistance on the road when you can't deal with ethnic diversity in your own neighborhood? It's ridiculous.

There is, I think, an ethnic component here. My understanding is that in much of Latin America, it is assumed that cyclists will ride facing traffic, like pedestrians. When I am driving or cycling in Great Britain, it takes me a while to get used to operating on the "wrong" side of the road.

1. How to you deal with wrongway cyclists driving?

I mostly encounter them while riding a bike, not when driving. In either case, I always try to keep in mind the fact that traffic can appear from unexpected directions, either red-light runners or wrong-way types.

2. Whos fault is it really?

It's their fault for failing to learn our conventions for which side of the road bikes should ride on. It's our fault for not scanning better for unexpected traffic. It's our society's fault for not doing a better job of letting these people know what is expected of cyclists. They are just doing what they think is safest. Maybe it is the safest way to ride in their former home.

3. Is there really a solution to this problem (other than imigration reform?*).

You are both a motorist and a cyclist, and probably speak Spanish, if you are part Mexican. Why not volunteer to help out a local Hispanic center with information on safe driving\cycling in America?

Paul

Pedestrians are a much different story than cyclists. First they are moving much slower than bicycles which means that they can more easily miss cars (by walking behind, stopping, etc). We are talking about a controlled situation here (4 way stop) where a driver has no expectation of some "disobeying" the law. Take this case (I know it is unrelated), we have lots of police chases here in Los Angeles. If a driver flew through a red light or stop sign and hit you whose fault is it? Of course the person runnning the light. What about the situation I was in where a driver on a cell phone ran a red and I had no way to stop and hit her (blind intersection). The driver who disobeyed the law is responsable in each of these cases.

There is alot of pro-cyclist and anti-"cager" talk here on this forum, and I expect that being a cycling community, and even I have had bad problems with motorist - when I was doing the right thing at the time. The most common ackronym they say is look twice, etc... well unfortunitly drivers in certain situations have lots to worry about, judging speed of oncoming traffic, looking for other cars, etc... and the brain goes into autopilot - the unantincpated is never looked for - expecially cyclists. I work in my car, spend 4 - 5 actual hours driving each day, and work in a time sensitive environment. I utilize traffic laws to get from A - B in the fastest way possable. About a year ago I hit a cat (killed it) on a residential zone - I was going 15 MPH max looking at adresses and this cat darts at the very last moment.... s**t happens, sorry to say.

I did a test this morning, went to an intersection known for cyclists and looked both ways twice then proceded, to realize that I never really looked beyond about half way on the right lane - why - programing. I don't know how to change that, but unless you live in an area that constantly has walkers, wrong way riders, etc and on certain roads you purposly look for them, there is a good change of hitting them. On a bicycle you are practically invisable - riding the wrong way YOU ARE INVISABLE - and if you are hit it is 100% the cyclists fault - enough said.

I like the idea of holding a safe cycling workshop for hispanics - not sure in anyone would attend (different issue) or maybe putting signs up on common problem areas will be better...

Mandy

What makes anyone think education is going to solve the problem? People break laws and don't care. I've told people before how to ride better, and they all but laughed at me. If they get a ticket they are going to tear them up and throw them away. The rules of the road will be followed just like all other laws are followed in these areas. This is reality, and this is how it's going to stay.

my58vw, you will have to look for cyclists and pedestrians on the road as well as the sidewalk in all directions. You will have to expect everyone to run the traffic signals. Also, even when waiting to make a turn, your vehicle and it's wheels should still be pointed straight ahead, until you actually start making the turn.

And of course, many "Mexican" Californians are not immigrants...they were there already when California became part of the USA.

???????? There are quite a few American Indians in my area that would take exception to this "PC" version of history.

1. How to you deal with wrongway cyclists driving?
Assume that if you cannot see around a corner, a wrong way cyclist is there.
I suggest you tell them they are going the wrong way.

2. Whos fault is it really?
Society. If you look at all the road signs you pass directed at cars, why are there no signs for cyclists. There are multiple one way signs everywhere in most cities.

3. Is there really a solution to this problem?
Very little is done to educate cyclists. Bike shops should have a suggested reading list. That Forrester guy needs to do a DVD. Some states have a bicyclists manual, but finding it is trouble.

The few times I was the wrong way rider, I was ignorant, lazy, and thought that riding on the wrong side would give me a heads up as to oncoming traffic. This does not work as you are not giving the on coming traffic time to slow down as they would if they come up behind you. Looking behind you is after you get used to it, not a problem.

Hi there

I live in Newport News Virginia and I see a bunch of bike riders riding the wrong way on a daily occourance. A couple of them have been involved in accidents and the biclycist was ticketed after the accident for riding the wrong way. Most of the cyclists who ride the wrong way honestly think they are being safe because they can see the traffic coming at them. The police have done nothing and I am not sure why.

But I also think no one in my area takes bicycle safety seriously (until their is an accident) because most of the public in my area consider bicycle to be toys.

I did a test this morning, went to an intersection known for cyclists and looked both ways twice then proceded, to realize that I never really looked beyond about half way on the right lane - why - programing. I don't know how to change that, but unless you live in an area that constantly has walkers, wrong way riders, etc and on certain roads you purposly look for them, there is a good change of hitting them. On a bicycle you are practically invisable - riding the wrong way YOU ARE INVISABLE - and if you are hit it is 100% the cyclists fault - enough said.

I like the idea of holding a safe cycling workshop for hispanics - not sure in anyone would attend (different issue) or maybe putting signs up on common problem areas will be better...

Mandy

And if you hit a wrong way cyclist and kill them... how do you think you will feel about that? Enough said INDEED.

Good that you finally noticed this error in your driving method... Because it is not just wrong way cyclists or just peds that you might fail to notice... kids very often ride on sidewalks and can easily ride right into your path... and they simply do not know any better. Signs are not the solution... you must change your bad driving habit.

It is YOUR responsibilty to not take shortcuts to ensure that your path is clear... PERIOD.

You also addressed one of the basic problems with training cyclists to do the right thing... it is like herding cats... there is no way to round up every cyclist (especially folks that may just now be entering the country, or may have been taught wrong way cycling by their parents). You as a motorist have the responsibility to make sure your way is clear.

Now how to change your bad habit... you must learn to look twice... in all directions.

LOOK TWICE, in all directions. Sorry, this will take an extra second or two... and it may possibly save lives... so it is worth it.

2. Whos fault is it really?
Society. If you look at all the road signs you pass directed at cars, why are there no signs for cyclists. There are multiple one way signs everywhere in most cities.
Take a look at the "Wrong Way - Ride With Traffic" signs (R5-1b and R9-3c) on this page (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part9/fig9b-02_longdesc.htm). Then go to your local public works department and suggest they put them up and why. In Spanish if necessary and available. Better yet, connect with your local bike/pedestrian citizens committee or bike advocacy group and do it together.

???????? There are quite a few American Indians in my area that would take exception to this "PC" version of history.

No they wouldn't. I said nothing that bears on any prior claim natives may have on California.

from M-W online:
Main Entry: im·mi·grant
Pronunciation: 'i-m&-gr&nt
Function: noun
: one that immigrates : as a : a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence. (emphasis added)

The OP insinuated that the "hispanics" in her area are immigrants. That implies they arrived in the country (USA) within their own lifetime. In fact, many are descendents of Spanish settlers who arrived before California was part of the USA, so neither they nor their forebears are immigrants to the USA.

And if they are "immigrants" then so are the natives, whose ancestors also came from somewhere else.

I like the idea of holding a safe cycling workshop for hispanics - not sure in anyone would attend (different issue) or maybe putting signs up on common problem areas will be better...


Yes. The problem with workshops is that they require an individual to take the initiative and attend in the first place. The reaction of most people to the notion of cycling workshops is usually going to be, "But I already know how to ride a bike!"

Signs may be one way to go, but that's probably going to take a long, drawn out push at Riverside's government, would require them spending some money, *and* would have to be bi-lingual since it's not just the hispanic population riding the wrong way down the street. A quicker and cheaper route could be advertising PSA-style in local publications, both English and Spanish (and whatever other languages which are common enough in the area to make such outreach stand a chance of being effective). Fliers distributed at schools, churches, and the like could be beneficial as well (not to mention done on the extreme cheap!). What's the cycling advocacy scene like in Riverside --that is to say, does one exist, and if so, could you get them behind this sort of idea?

Looks like the US Federal Highway Administration's (FHWA's) Office of Safety is doing something.

http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/ped_bike/ped_bike_hsp.htm

A disproportionate amount of persons killed and injured in traffic crashes as pedestrians and bicyclists are Hispanic immigrants. Census data indicates that the Hispanic population of the United States is growing faster than any other group, and problems with the safety of Hispanics on roadways will only increase as more and more Hispanics immigrate to the United States. Accordingly, the Federal Highway Administration and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration determined it was necessary to do further research into this problem and develop appropriate materials to convey safety messages to Hispanics, and a Marketing Plan to tell us best how to communicate.


This page, http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/ped_bike/materials/ped_hisp.htm, has a link enttitled,
"Message: Cyclists should keep to the right and ride with traffic. Don't assume drivers will stop for you."

The picture does not show that but rather a person in the correct, right lane, looking the "wrong" direction. Seems like they got the text right, but messed up on the picture. Or perhaps they are two seperate messages.

Material para Hispanico Peatón y Bicyclists
Hispanico Bicyclist Aviador
http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/ped_bike/materials/html/flyer-020-s.htm

By the way they should make these for old white guys, the other population that I have seen riding on the wrong side of the road. They were taught that it was safer to ride facing traffic.

By the way they should make these for old white guys, the other population that I have seen riding on the wrong side of the road. They were taught that it was safer to ride facing traffic.

They should make these for everybody... I saw more wrong way cyclists along US 101 in Oregon then anywhere else along that road...

People start with bad habits and then just continue with them... both drivers and cyclists alike.

And if you hit a wrong way cyclist and kill them... how do you think you will feel about that? Enough said INDEED.

Good that you finally noticed this error in your driving method... Because it is not just wrong way cyclists or just peds that you might fail to notice... kids very often ride on sidewalks and can easily ride right into your path... and they simply do not know any better. Signs are not the solution... you must change your bad driving habit.

It is YOUR responsibilty to not take shortcuts to ensure that your path is clear... PERIOD.

You also addressed one of the basic problems with training cyclists to do the right thing... it is like herding cats... there is no way to round up every cyclist (especially folks that may just now be entering the country, or may have been taught wrong way cycling by their parents). You as a motorist have the responsibility to make sure your way is clear.

Now how to change your bad habit... you must learn to look twice... in all directions.

LOOK TWICE, in all directions. Sorry, this will take an extra second or two... and it may possibly save lives... so it is worth it.

Would there even have been a close call if the cyclist had actually obeyed a common traffic signal and stopped at the stop sign? We can only take so much responsibility for the actions of other people. We can't prevent EVERYTHING for ourselves AND others.

Would there even have been a close call if the cyclist had actually obeyed a common traffic signal and stopped at the stop sign? We can only take so much responsibility for the actions of other people. We can't prevent EVERYTHING for ourselves AND others.

No, of course there would not have been a close call. And yes, the cyclist should ride in the proper direction.

But turn the question around and ask "would there have been a close call if the motorist had ensured that their way was clear by checking all around" (the OP indicated they did not normally "look right") and then consider that children may have been approaching from the right and may not have been trained in any manner.

While the cyclists should not have been riding the wrong way, neither should a motorist EVER proceed without looking in all directions.

And if you hit a wrong way cyclist and kill them... how do you think you will feel about that?


I don't really feel sorry for anybody who get killed because he is disobeying traffic laws. I do feel sorry for anybody who get killed even though he is obeying traffic laws.

One example is railway crossings and here in Ottawa, Canada, there are lots of bike lanes, bike paths, roadways, etc. with railway crossing. If the railway crossing has a light to tell you to stop, and you disobey it, sorry so bad so sad. In fact, it is one more reason not to bike down the wrong direction --- the stop lights for "trains coming" only faces traffic on the right, including bike lanes and bike paths.

Similarly, a cyclist riding a bike at 30 km/hour wrong way down a 80 km/hour zone (there are lot of such roads with reserved Bike Lanes here in Ottawa, such as Hunt Club Road, Woodroffe, Airport Parkway) - and I actually encountered one over the last long weekend - and get killed, it is not going to raise a lot of symphathy here. He can however, expected to have his funeral costs covered up to $6,000 under the Statuary Accident Beneifts Schedule under the Insurance Act of Ontario, for traffic accidents occurred after September 1, 1996. Not very much, and his family cannot sue for more.

NOTE: if the cyclist is insured by his own automobile insurance policy, (his family has a car, for example), his widow, including same sex partner, if any, will get up to $25,000 death benefits under Ontario law. If he is car-free, and uninsured, I do not know if he get any death benefits (he will get $6,000 funeral expenses for sure however).

No, of course there would not have been a close call. And yes, the cyclist should ride in the proper direction.

But turn the question around and ask "would there have been a close call if the motorist had ensured that their way was clear by checking all around" (the OP indicated they did not normally "look right") and then consider that children may have been approaching from the right and may not have been trained in any manner.

While the cyclists should not have been riding the wrong way, neither should a motorist EVER proceed without looking in all directions.

That is easier said than done I am afraid. Here is California if you took the time to look two or three times each way, straining to see in the blind spots, in your mirrors, etc you would be subject to a different type of road rage - and it would not be from someone on a bicycle. I talked to a driving instructor today from the school where a friend learned to drive a few years ago. I asked him about looking specifically for wrong way cyclists, pedristrians. He said, it is not the drivers main responsability for looking for the person breaking the law. Peds should assume that they never have the right of way in regards to traffic, unless they have a signal or crosswalk, in which they flow with the rest of traffic. The fundimental difference between a ped and bike is the speed - less than 4 MPH for most walkers - they can stop "on a dime" to avoid a traffic collision - cyclists can not.

It is easier fundimentally to see a ped on the sidewalk, they tend to fall right in your line of sight for the driver, they are generally predictable (in most cases), and due to the fundimentals of 4 ways stops for example, most of the traffic will see them, and wise peds will not cross when the driver to their right has the right of way. A bike on the other hand is very hard to see and judge. In the time it takes to look left, then right, then left they can be in front of your bumper. Likewise, when a driver looks to the right (the direction the wrong way cyclist would come from) they look maybe 5 - 10 feet to the left. At maybe 5 seconds to scan the road, the cyclist travels 73 feet at 10 MPH - that is quite a distance away, and it is no wonder than they are not seen - take 20 MPH on a road bike = nearly 150 feet - that is a long way.

Even worse is when you are waiting for a slow moving car on your left, you are looking left for so long you go when the car clears, and wait in the middle of the road for other cars on the right... now what if that cyclist was 300 feet away (the length of a football field), no where near close enough to see, but he is right on top of you...

Now think if the driver was not a cyclist, 10 MPH sounds fast for someone who does not ride - and they might not realize the bike is coming that fast towards them... a recipe for an accident.

All said and done, if the cyclist was just going the right way we would not be having this discussion. Unfortunitly as more people are hurt or killed due to their actions on the road things hopefully will change. if I had to think about all the "what ifs" then no one would drive.

No one wins :(

Mandy

Uh, I am from California... I bike and drive in San Diego... 9th largest city in the US. I do not let the motorist behind me drive for me.

You need to stop listening to driving instructors that are more worried about slowing traffic than saving lives. That instructor was an idiot.

Slow down, look twice, save lives... possibly your own.

Yes, the cyclist is in the wrong for riding the wrong way. So what? Maybe some can rationalize away the fact that they hit a cyclist by saying he was on the wrong side of the street, on the sidewalk, going too fast or a load of other contributing factors. To me these are just excuses. I really don't think a cyclist could do anything that would make an accident unavoidable by an attentive driver who is ready for any possibility. That is what a good driving instructor would be teaching.

Yes, the cyclist is in the wrong for riding the wrong way. So what? Maybe some can rationalize away the fact that they hit a cyclist by saying he was on the wrong side of the street, on the sidewalk, going too fast or a load of other contributing factors. To me these are just excuses. I really don't think a cyclist could do anything that would make an accident unavoidable by an attentive driver who is ready for any possibility. That is what a good driving instructor would be teaching.

+10

Any driving instructor that preaches "flow" over "life saving" is an idiot.

Yes, the cyclist is in the wrong for riding the wrong way. So what? Maybe some can rationalize away the fact that they hit a cyclist by saying he was on the wrong side of the street, on the sidewalk, going too fast or a load of other contributing factors. To me these are just excuses. I really don't think a cyclist could do anything that would make an accident unavoidable by an attentive driver who is ready for any possibility. That is what a good driving instructor would be teaching.

Ain't no such thing as a driver or anyone else who is ready for any possibility. That person does not exist except in your pollyanna mind. Case in point, Steve Irwin aka The Corcodile Hunter. Pretty much recognized as an expert in his field but he never saw the tail of the stingray that drove it's spike into his heart killing him.

Yes, the cyclist is in the wrong for riding the wrong way. So what? Maybe some can rationalize away the fact that they hit a cyclist by saying he was on the wrong side of the street, on the sidewalk, going too fast or a load of other contributing factors. To me these are just excuses. I really don't think a cyclist could do anything that would make an accident unavoidable by an attentive driver who is ready for any possibility. That is what a good driving instructor would be teaching.

+1 from your friendly neighborhood MexiJew.

Ain't no such thing as a driver or anyone else who is ready for any possibility. That person does not exist except in your pollyanna mind. Case in point, Steve Erwin aka The Corcodile Hunter. Pretty much recognized as an expert in his field but he never saw the tail of the stingray that drove it's spike into his heart killing him.

OK, in reality that is very much true... which is why it makes me nuts when some folks here insist that the cyclist is responsible and can be prepared for every situation, if properly trained. Of course their comeback will be along the lines of "well there are events that are as rare as a meteor hitting the earth and effectively they will never happen." (ah but these events DO happen... a'la Steve Irwin and Ken Kifer)

Great, but the flip side is that all parties involved should at all times work to avoid all possible collision situations... which means that neither cyclist nor motorist has a free pass anytime... thus motorists MUST always ensure that their path is clear, ON ALL SIDES before pushing down on the accelerator. NONE of this BS about "well, that is an illegal direction from which "they" came... so too bad."

Here the OP is a young driver with some obvious bad driving habits already formed... the worst of which is always assuming that he never has to look carefully down the right side, as it is illegal for cyclists to be there. Yup, cyclists should not be there. Look anyway! No excuses.

OK, in reality that is very much true... which is why it makes me nuts when some folks here insist that the cyclist is responsible and can be prepared for every situation, if properly trained. Of course their comeback will be along the lines of "well there are events that are as rare as a meteor hitting the earth and effectively they will never happen." (ah but these events DO happen... a'la Steve Irwin and Ken Kifer)

Great, but the flip side is that all parties involved should at all times work to avoid all possible collision situations... which means that neither cyclist nor motorist has a free pass anytime... thus motorists MUST always ensure that their path is clear, ON ALL SIDES before pushing down on the accelerator. NONE of this BS about "well, that is an illegal direction from which "they" came... so too bad."

Here the OP is a young driver with some obvious bad driving habits already formed... the worst of which is always assuming that he never has to look carefully down the right side, as it is illegal for cyclists to be there. Yup, cyclists should not be there. Look anyway! No excuses.

I look for wrong way cyclists and pedestrians all the time, and I most likely would have seen this one, and STILL started to pull out when it was my turn, and my path would have been clear. The guy blew through a stop sign. If another car is coming up to a stop sign on my right or left, I don't wait around forever seeing if they are going to stop, I start out.

If you are travelling the wrong way, there are no stop signs.

Bottom line: No cyclist is perfect, and no car driver is perfect. Therefore you will never be completely protected, no matter how much you educate or punish anyone, cyclist or driver. But whether on a bike or in a car, you can protect yourself more by making yourself more responsible than the people around you. In the immediate moment, you are the only person you have any direct control over. Any control over other factors is only given by actions you intentionally take, such as being visible and predictable. But realize that there are some factors you will never have control over. Those you can only attempt to minimize and hope for the best.

<steps down off soapbox...>

Great, but the flip side is that all parties involved should at all times work to avoid all possible collision situations... which means that neither cyclist nor motorist has a free pass anytime... thus motorists MUST always ensure that their path is clear, ON ALL SIDES before pushing down on the accelerator. NONE of this BS about "well, that is an illegal direction from which "they" came... so too bad."

Here the OP is a young driver with some obvious bad driving habits already formed... the worst of which is always assuming that he never has to look carefully down the right side, as it is illegal for cyclists to be there. Yup, cyclists should not be there. Look anyway! No excuses.

Lets not put all that burden on the motorist. Remember, the road is supposed to be shared with the cyclists. That means sharing the responsibilities as well. When I'm riding I follow the same rules as when I'm driving. I stop at red lights and stop signs, signal my turns etc. I ride in a predictible manner. You seem to be taking the position that motorists must always be extra vigilant for cyclists doing the wrong thing. Cyclists that choose to travel on the wrong side of the road, run stop lights and stop signs are puting themselves in harms way. In the event of a collision with such a cyclist it would be unfortunate but not unexpected and not the fault of the motorist. I would classify them as Darwin Award candidates. The stupid don't survive.

Regarding the driving habits of this person I would say they are pretty good from what I have read. Everyone can improve, including you and me.

Lets not put all that burden on the motorist... You seem to be taking the position that motorists must always be extra vigilant for cyclists doing the wrong thing...

You're right, lets not put all the burden on motorists. I believe ALL road users need to be extra vigilant for others doing the wrong thing. Cyclists don't get a free pass. The best riders will not allow themselves to be taken out by the many mistakes of motorists, and the best drivers will not allow themselves to hit a cyclist just because "he was on the wrong side of the road". There are very few accidents that a skilled and attentive driver or cyclist cannot avoid. This includes the ones where someone was doing something stupid. Yes, biking on the wrong side of the road is stupid. Haven't you ever seen a motorist do something stupid? The survivors prepare and adapt, and their genes go on.

And if you hit a wrong way cyclist and kill them... how do you think you will feel about that? Enough said INDEED.

Good that you finally noticed this error in your driving method... Because it is not just wrong way cyclists or just peds that you might fail to notice... kids very often ride on sidewalks and can easily ride right into your path... and they simply do not know any better. Signs are not the solution... you must change your bad driving habit.

It is YOUR responsibilty to not take shortcuts to ensure that your path is clear... PERIOD.

You also addressed one of the basic problems with training cyclists to do the right thing... it is like herding cats... there is no way to round up every cyclist (especially folks that may just now be entering the country, or may have been taught wrong way cycling by their parents). You as a motorist have the responsibility to make sure your way is clear.

Now how to change your bad habit... you must learn to look twice... in all directions.

LOOK TWICE, in all directions. Sorry, this will take an extra second or two... and it may possibly save lives... so it is worth it.

In California, the cyclist would be in the wrong.

CVC 21650.1. A bicycle operated on a roadway, or the shoulder of a highway, shall be operated in the same direction as vehicles are required to be driven upon the roadway.

Everytime I see someone headed the wrong way in traffic, I think "dumb***" is going to end up getting clocked. When pulling out onto a street, the bike isn't supposed to be there, and if it is there, and they get clocked by a car pulling out, the driver of that car isn't at fault. Sure, you can check for wrong way traffic, but I'd say 99% of us don't. If your turning right, you look left for a gap and go. Sometimes Darwin is right. :) I should hope no one in here rides on the wrong side of the road. Heck, even my 9 yo knows cycling traffic laws, as he's on a road bike and does rides.

I think the real problem is how do you teach all those wrong-way riders that they are doing something bad? How? Do you have a massive sweep and herd them into a hall and blast laws at them? No. It comes naturally through the media. If Mexicans are doing it, get on the the public access on the spanish channels and tell them. If it's kids, tell them on mtv or saturday morning shows or in some cases, like another thread, go to the schools. If it's homeless, day laborers, then go to the shops they work out of and tell them.....

In California, the cyclist would be in the wrong.

CVC 21650.1. A bicycle operated on a roadway, or the shoulder of a highway, shall be operated in the same direction as vehicles are required to be driven upon the roadway.

Everytime I see someone headed the wrong way in traffic, I think "dumb***" is going to end up getting clocked. When pulling out onto a street, the bike isn't supposed to be there, and if it is there, and they get clocked by a car pulling out, the driver of that car isn't at fault. Sure, you can check for wrong way traffic, but I'd say 99% of us don't. If your turning right, you look left for a gap and go. Sometimes Darwin is right. :) I should hope no one in here rides on the wrong side of the road. Heck, even my 9 yo knows cycling traffic laws, as he's on a road bike and does rides.


I agree with you. The law supports your answer.

But when that cyclist is suddenly splayed across your hood... you are not going to feel very good about it. Especially if that cyclist is a 6 year old kid that doesn't know the law.

The OP has a bad habit... they need to learn to keep their head on a swivel and check all over before driving off. That is the bigger issue.

Perhaps I missed it in all the posts. But I'm still a bit unclear about just where the bike rider came from. Was he going the same direction you were but on the wrong side near the gutter? If so it is totally unreasonable to expect a driver to see that rider.

That said I've seen worse. Same thing except sidewalk on the other side of parked cars.

Any rider who does this on a regular basis is going to get hurt sooner or later no matter how careful motorists are.