Classic & Vintage - Rivendell Vs. Vintage: Your Thoughts

... To riders used to newer oversized-tube bikes, classic bikes can feel a bit noodly in this situation. Not that there's any actual problem, but the classics don't feel as confidence inspring due to their torsional flex. ...

True. The Capo forces me to try to pedal more smoothly. (Unfortunately, my pedaliing style is still very much a work-in-progress, even after 100k miles on the road. :) )

Is it possible to find an old bike with lugs as elegant as on the Rivendells? The older bikes I've seen all have plain lugs. Are there older bikes (or other new ones) that combine functionality with aesthetics like Rivendell does?

I have a 71 Raleigh Supercourse (upper-midrange bike) and it has Nervex lugs. I don't think you will find many lugs more intricate than that (generally speaking).

classic Italian with fancy lugs the colnago Arabesque
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/images/Italian/Colnago/ColnAr2L.jpg

photo courtesy Classic Rendezvous

Go look at their catalog:

http://www.maxway.com.tw/

I don't know of anyone that sells it, but Maxway makes it so it's got to be somewhere.


here:

http://www.maxway.com.tw/products_view.asp?PidNo=200601050005&Name=Racing-Bike-Frame-Y4R01_S.jpg

or this:

http://www.maxway.com.tw/products_view.asp?PidNo=200601050034&Name=Y4T01_S.jpg

Yeah, but the point is Maxway is a manufacturer, not a retailer. They make them but who is it that's selling them?

If I had the dough to throw I'd buy a canti Rom in a NY minute....and sell my Triplecross frameset to TimJ:D
Top

Those damnned head lugs (Richard Sachs?) are too tall on top - almost a half-inch higher then the extreme top of the top tube. Disgusting, IMHO.

-Kurt
Obviously that's so you can raise your stem up to near eye level when sitting on the bike. :D

Lots of good stuff here. The short answer which others have nailed here is the Riv's allowing flexibility of wider/puffier tires along with the associated clearances for fenders and brakes.

But.......I will add one important point that I think sets Rivendell apart.
They not only have carved out a niche for a functional product, but I argue that they have also complemented that with creating a lifestyle brand.

When you buy one (admittedly for a premium) you not only get the goods but also the the cache of belonging to this "club" offering anti-extremism, outsider non-conformism, simple yet elegant design, artisinal mojo, along with associated mix of pre-curated accesories and collateral. You're not just buying a bike, your buying into a culture. (sorry to throw down with the too much brand speak, can't help it, I'm in the ad biz). Whether this was by their design or a happy confluence of just what they want to do and the marketplace, I do see it as a very successful positioning.
I don't own one, but want to ;).

Some parallels to what Apple is or was doing with Macs, what Triumph is doing with the the Bonneville family, HD with arguably their entire brand (altho you could argue HD is now a half a fashion brand), Fender and Gibson does with certain reissues, Boutique audiophile and guitar amp makers, etc.

Obviously that's so you can raise your stem up to near eye level when sitting on the bike. :D

Haha - so the comfort bike trend of bars in your face has hit the roadies? :p

-Kurt

I don't think I would ever spring for a new fully geared rivendell, they are just too expensive when there are so many beautiful japanese road bikes out there. (though I would also kill for an XO-1 style All Rounder or Atlantis)

Also, can anyone confirm that the company that makes Surly and Kogswell also makes an affordable lugged steel bike because I have never seen one.

Brynnar

There are a lot of beautiful Japanese road bikes out there. They don't show up at police auctions the way they once did. That all happens on eBay now. But they are out there and they are nice and they don't cost a lot compared to new.

But to answer the OP question, my opinion is that the quality of old Miyatas/Univegas/Centurians is as good as any Toyo or Maxway Rivendell.

Rivendells differ from the UJBs of the '80s in a couple of ways other than quality: fancy lugs, fancy headbadge, OS tubing and modern spacing: 130-ish compared to 126mm. I guess I have to add heat-treated tubing to that as well for some Rivendell models.

If you go back to the '70s and look at European stuff you can find examples of similar quality. But they mostly existed at the higher end of a manufacturers line. A top Raleigh or Gitane or Bianchi was/is a quality item. But again, standard tube sizes and vintage spacing.

...

Now regarding the company that makes Surlys and Kogswells, you're talking about Maxway. They do make lugged frames because we revived their brazed frame production line starting in 2002. This year QBP(Surly) started making the Rivendell Bleriots there. We've moved on to different shops for lugged and TIG'd frames. But, yeah, Maxway makes lugged frames and the affordable ones have a Kogswell brand on them. They'll make them for you too if you can order 200 at a time.

I think there are quite a number of very good steel frames from the nineties around too, and they have 130 mm spacing. See the Titan frame thread for examples. At my LBS here in Oslo I was asked by a young "any bike that weighs more than 7 k is ****" guy half mockingly if I also wanted to buy one of their old steel Colnago frames up in the attic ( I was buying an old quill stem). I am very tempted to ask for prices but right now I can't defend a new road bike.

I think there are quite a number of very good steel frames from the nineties around too, and they have 130 mm spacing. See the Titan frame thread for examples. At my LBS here in Oslo I was asked by a young "any bike that weighs more than 7 k is ****" guy half mockingly if I also wanted to buy one of their old steel Colnago frames up in the attic ( I was buying an old quill stem). I am very tempted to ask for prices but right now I can't defend a new road bike.


:eek: Get me prices!

-Kurt

I enjoy their website (Rivendale) but find hard to justify spending all that money when there is still a plethora of old steel out there. Also, since most of their frames are outsourced, aren't they in the final analysis, a reseller?

I want to add one more thing about this discussion. The Kogswell bikes/frames are great and much cheaper (dollars not quality). I got one of the last Mixts frames from Matthew when we were still in minneapolis for my wife and people stop her all the time asking about it (way more than my rivendell). The only reason I didn't get the lugged Kogswell is because the p58 is too small for me. I've been looking all summer for a good lugged bike for a 650b conversion but the more I look the more I'm thinking that tig'ed or not the Kogswell 650b frame/fork is the best commuter deal out there. (for a cool well thought out bike from a small company)

I'll post a picture of the mixte when i can figure out how to do it.

My point is that if you want a new lugged bike that is less expensive than the Riv look at the Kogswells

This link should work

http://www.flickr.com/photos/97495177@N00/238540590/

Nitto rack and bags and some sks fenders since then

http://static.flickr.com/92/238540590_30886bd13c.jpg

It's possible to get a custom build, with great attention to detail that rides beautifully under a large variety of conditions and it's new when you get it. The Rivendells are a little quirky much like their owners or designer, but they don't require bolt-on water bottle or pump mounts and allow for a variety of tire sizes. I consider myself truley lucky to own one. The old bikes I've had have been quirky too, and they all do things differently. There are one or two that have been close to the Riv.......but still different. That's part of the beauty of bike; the diversity of the rides and the never ending search for perfection.

I consider the Atlantis to be the right below the cut-off point for how high I would go for a bike that was not custon made to my specs. One day...

I'll go one better.

I think the Atlantis is the BEST production frameset ever made.

It is purposeful, pretty, and reasonably affordable in the used market.

If Grant knows anything, it's how to sell a hybrid to someone who needs one but doesn't want one.

Yeah, but the point is Maxway is a manufacturer, not a retailer. They make them but who is it that's selling them?


All IROs (TIG), all Surlys (TIG), the Rivendell Bleriot, all lugged Kogswell's up to now, Jamis steel (TIG), Urbane's stuff, some SJS and On One. Can't think of any other.

I want to add one more thing about this discussion. The Kogswell bikes/frames are great and much cheaper (dollars not quality).

My point is that if you want a new lugged bike that is less expensive than the Riv look at the Kogswells

Thanks for the kind words.

At the moment, we're not actively producing lugged frames. We're having samples made at a couple of shops to see if they can beat Maxway's quality.

This link should work

http://www.flickr.com/photos/97495177@N00/238540590/

Nitto rack and bags and some sks fenders since then

Now I've seen everything. A 559mm-wheeled mixte...

-Kurt

I've never ridden a Rivendell but I can really appreciate their Atlantis and Quickbeam. I also like Surly and Bianchi touring style bikes. That said, I enjoy cleaning up 30 year old bikes and riding them. Maybe I like them better because I'm proud of saving them from dumpsters and having people say "hey, nice bike".

If I want to go bigger than 1 1/4" width, I guess I could switch my 27" hoops for 700 (or 650's). I'm happy with the old steel bikes. I doubt I'll be buying a new Rivendell, Surly or Bianchi anytime soon.

I just offered a guy $200 for his Woodrup w/Campy drivetrain. He's sleeping on it and will tell me tomorrow. That is a lot more exciting than walking into a bikeshop and buying a $2000 bike!