Classic & Vintage - My greatest ride ever, may never know what it is though

Photos attached...
This was a conversation from a previous post that began when I was talking with Scooper, Silversmith, and Walter.... (about another great Schwinn)

I have decided that whoever nails the bikes' identity will be recieving a free old bike... nothing too special but, my way of saying thanks!
(I think that the winner should be chosen based on the general consensus of the group)

I recently picked up the most breathtaking 1972 Gitane (or so I thought) I've ever seen from a priest at our local church, it is all original except for the seat (a newer Brooks) however, I have no idea what this bike is.....the man who willed it to the church passed away several years ago.

I just took it for a first ride and am blown away! No matter how fast I went, it wanted to go faster....
EDIT: I've now taken this bike for several rides way up to the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder. God this bike is responsive!

I could have sworn that the ugly rear cable stay/bracket was the telltale sign of a Gitane/TDF....

The bike weighs rougly 23.3 lbs on 1 scale and 23.9 lbs on the other scale

Campagnolo components are stamped "Patent 72"
Campy N. Record derailleurs
Campy headset
Campy Superleggeri pedals
Campy shift levers on the downtube at the "pentagon" braze-on
Rear Hub- "Approved 2-72 Made in France"
Front hub- "Approved 3-72 Made in France"
(could these be Normandy ??)
Weinmann 700C rims

Bacoma lugs are stamped which would be consistent w/ Gitane but, may be consistent w/ other makers:
"72" stamped on the riders' R side of the seatlug (stamped upside down- geometry) and
"72" stamped on the riders' L side of the head tube (top lug-geometry),
"61" also stamped on the riders' L side of the head tube (bottom lug-geometry)

3 very strange stamps:
Rear L dropout is stamped "40 C? 42" (strange serial# not consistent w/ Gitane)
The inside of each rear dropout has a HUGE stamp that is "7K" (the 7 is placed above the K)
These "7K" stamps are 3 times bigger than any of the other stamps and the font/text style is ornate. Appears much fancier than the other stamps....I checked other Gitanes from the era and couldn't find these "7K" stamps

Beautiful Stronglight crankset
3TTT RECORD mm. 105 stem
Bars are stamped "England" on the INSIDE of the drops (where the end cap would pop in)
I tore the original leather wrap off and re-taped the bars myself....in the hope of learning who made the bars... also added the Christophe clips to the pedals

Mafac "Competition" brakes w/ the original rock scrapers attached to keep the tires clean
Scrapers are stamped "MADE IN FRANCE"

Top & Bottom head tube lugs are stamped "BCM" (which Walter taught me is Bacoma... thanks man)
Rear dropouts are simplex but front dropouts are Huret

Possibly the strangest fact of all..... the bike is all chrome and I believe Reynolds 531 Double Butted!
(I absolutely, positively believe that this chrome job is 34 years old if it's a day)
Another strange fact: the head tube clearly never had a head badge riveted into it... it must have had a decal or, nothing at all...??

The priest believes that the nice old man purchased the bike brand new at a small "Cycles" shop in France and shipped it back w/ some furniture
The only thing I feel confident about is that this bike was handmade no later than 1972 and everything about this bike screams French (Several strange quirks-to me anyways)

My favorite component? The rock scrapers that keep the tires free of debris


http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/bigwoo2/CIMG0169.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/bigwoo2/CIMG0170.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/bigwoo2/CIMG0172.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/bigwoo2/CIMG0173.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/bigwoo2/CIMG0175.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/bigwoo2/CIMG0177.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/bigwoo2/CIMG0178.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/bigwoo2/CIMG0179.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/bigwoo2/CIMG0180.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/bigwoo2/CIMG0181.jpg

I believe the 72 in the lugs refers to the frame angles.
Can you provide a bit more info about the "pentagon braze on".
Do you mean the bosses are on a pentagon shaped base
(as opposed to square)?
Pics would really help
marty

Yes, pics, please. I think based on your description that this is not a Gitane TdF, first off they were not fully chromed, and wouldn't have come with Campy gear. I believe that the pentagon shaped piece is a clamp-stop, no shifter-bosses on this era. If the rear dropout is a Simplex it must have been tapped to accept the Campy RD thread.

The pentagon stop is typical Gitane. I don't see how it could be anything but a TdF if it is a Gitane. The model above it had Campy dropouts and the model below it was way below it. None of them had headbadges, to my knowlege. Maybe it's a model they didn't export. Maybe it's a one-off for a show or something.

I'm sitting here staring at my Gitane TdF, trying to figure out What the "ugly rear stay cable/bracket is that you referred to. Do you mean the derailer cable stop that's clamped to the chainstay?

It's very strange that they would build it with Simplex rear dropouts and a Campy derailer, since the dropout would have to be tapped and reshaped to give it a stop for the Campy derailer. Why not just use Campy dropouts like the Super Corsa? It's not strange that they mixed brands of dropouts. My TdF has Simplex in the rear and Campy in the front.

I'm sitting here staring at my Gitane TdF, trying to figure out What the "ugly rear stay cable/bracket is that you referred to. Do you mean the derailer cable stop that's clamped to the chainstay?

I'm talking about this:

I'm hurrying as quickly as I can w/ the photos... having zoom problems

Brake bridge looks like a Mercier to me. Good luck

Now I remember, I've seen that picture before. They don't all have those. Mine doesn't.
Maybe mine is a later model. It has the later MAFAC Competitions istead of the Racers.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/bigwoo2/CIMG0169.jpg


"Brake bridge looks like a Mercier to me".

Mercier..??
ok folks... the free old bike contest has officially begun... Go!!

That is one gorgeous bike.
something about those tire savers is tickling my memory,
like they were custom made?
I wonder if this is from a constructeur? ala Rene Herse
or Alex Singer?
whatever you paid for it I'd say it was worth it.

marty

That is one gorgeous bike.
something about those tire savers is tickling my memory,
like they were custom made?
I wonder if this is from a constructeur? ala Rene Herse
or Alex Singer?
whatever you paid for it I'd say it was worth it.

marty

Thank you so much:p Your kind words fill my heart w/ joy as much as riding this bike does however, my gut feeling tells me that this bike almost has to be somehow related to Gitane....
Rene' or Alex S. (those 2 brothers whos names I cannot remember) would not have jumbled this many foreign parts together... umm... would a lesser known constructeur have though...??

possibly. Remember that Herse and Singer (Csuka?) were not the
only constructeurs, there was Delcroix, Routens etc.
Maybe the bike was bought as a frame only and then the components
chosen by the original owner, why not? it might explain the
jumbled components. The mixed dropouts are curious, more something
I would expect a constructeur to build than a production shop
such as Gitane.
My particular area of interest isn't french bikes so who knows.

marty

I vote for a "Constructeur" also. I recently purchased "The Golden Age of Handbuilt Bicycles" by Jan Heine and your bike has a lot of features of a Singer, although I don't think it is. You should send an email to Mr. Heine at Vintage Bicycle Press www.vintagebicyclepress.com as he is incredibly interestested in constructeur bikes.

I have a pair of Reynolds "Hiduminium" handlebars that are stamped "Made in England" also.

Amazing bike! I cringe a little bit that you tore off the original leather handlebar wrap, even if it was rattty. If the bike was a "Herse" or even rarer builder you greatly devalued the bike by changing anything at all.

Good luck,

vjp

How about a detail shot of the seat stay caps? That might help. The fork crown looks "Gitane", from that distance, but I haven't seen enough Merciers to know how they look. I know they had models that pretty closely corresponded to Gitanes offerings, and maybe better finished from what I've heard. The all-chrome thing is what throws me off the Gitane trail.

my apologies, I didn't realize there is a whole album of shots, not just that one....I will go study them now...

What a gorgeous find, bigwoo! At 23 - 24 pounds, and as big as it is, it almost has to be 531 or similar high end DB tubeset.

I second vjp's suggestion to send Jan Heine some detailed photos and see if he has any ideas. His e-mail address is heine94@earthlink.net.

After studying the photos, I say it's a Gitane TdF. All of the frame details match. It even has the same tire savers as mine, but those aren't factory. From your description, I'd say it rides like a Gitane TdF, too.

I just thought of something. I'm at work, but as I recall, the TdF has an unsually skinny downtube. The ends of the clamp on my shifters almost touch. Do you have a way to measure it?

My favorite component? The rock scrapers that keep the tires free of debris

Those were for keeping glass off of tubular tires(sew ups). You also would occasionally have your gloved hand touch the tire while you were riding to do the same thing.

Here's a thought and a question,
Given the similarities to the Gitane TdF were the TdF frames
fully chromed and then painted ? If so this would be a possiblity,
and is it possible the fork is not original to the bike (Huret dropouts)?
I know I said constructeur but this has got me thinking.

Francophiles what say ye?

marty

What a gorgeous find, bigwoo! At 23 - 24 pounds, and as big as it is, it almost has to be 531 or similar high end DB tubeset.

I second vjp's suggestion to send Jan Heine some detailed photos and see if he has any ideas. His e-mail address is heine94@earthlink.net.

Will do... I'm putting together an email now however, I'm confident that we have enough good eggs on this forum to nail the identity;)

Here's a thought and a question,
Given the similarities to the Gitane TdF were the TdF frames
fully chromed and then painted ? If so this would be a possiblity,
and is it possible the fork is not original to the bike (Huret dropouts)?
I know I said constructeur but this has got me thinking.

Francophiles what say ye?

marty


I'm thinking the front fork is definately original...
"Huret" is stamped on both sides and that's not something they've done for many moons (at least not to my knowledge). Also, the chromes' patina(tint) exactly matches the patina everywhere else.... (but, I'm no expert on this type of analysis)

More importantly, here's a fun fact that a few of the great old timers from our local Velo club have taught me...
"Son, when the french shops had a busy day they would sometimes cut a few corners, especially at Gitane.... if they were backed up and didn't have time to heat-treat the frame AND paint it, they may simply have chromed it to get back on schedule, this process was looked down upon at that time but we are all very thankful for it now....Also, they grabbed whatever parts were on the shop floor that day...."


Let me ask you this, I'm thinking more and more that a small independent bike shop may have built this frame up from scratch....can we definately rule out a Super Corsa built for a shop customer from scratch and narrow the results to a TdF ???

Why would a small shop be stamping the frame though??

The main thing holding us up here: several guys from the Velo club say there is no way on earth that the serial # on the L rear dropout came from Gitane...???

Here's a thought and a question,
Given the similarities to the Gitane TdF were the TdF frames
fully chromed and then painted ? If so this would be a possiblity,
and is it possible the fork is not original to the bike (Huret dropouts)?
I know I said constructeur but this has got me thinking.

Francophiles what say ye?

marty

TdF frames were definitely not fully chromed and then painted.

As I said before, my TdF came from the factory with mixed dropouts.

As I said before, my TdF came from the factory with mixed dropouts.

didn't see that in the above, I think I was too fixed on the Simplex/Huret and missed
the simplex/campy in your post.

mea culpa mea culpa mea maxima culpa

marty

I just thought of something. I'm at work, but as I recall, the TdF has an unsually skinny downtube. The ends of the clamp on my shifters almost touch. Do you have a way to measure it?

I'm trying to find a caliper/micrometer Dd..........I dont own one but, I'll find one

If you can accurately measure the circumference of the tube then you can calculate the diameter -just divide the circumference by pi.

I have a few random thots: the pentagon shaped stop was intended for a clamp with a flat bottom edge (like Simplex) and the Campy is a later addition made by the owner. Therefore (a leap in reasoning) ALL the Campy gear is add-on upgrade and the Simplex DO was tapped, after manufacture. Is the Italian stem a FR diameter, or sanded to fit? My TdF had unique "leaf" plate caps on the seatstays, but most TdF's I've seen don't. Is this seatstay end treatment shown EXACTLY like your Tdf, Dirtdrop? (the scalloped ends of the stays on the DO do look very like my Gitane, however) I just saw pix of another French bike (a ROYAL, neverheardofit) that has the same "ugly" rear brake cable stop arch, so this piece is NOT a Gitane-only feature, tho that's where I saw it first and most. Lastly, if this guy was of a mind to buy a bunch of Campy parts to adorn it, maybe he splurged on a chrome plating job, aftermarket, too. Wouldn't be the first time that was done.

Just to confuse the issue . . . A friend back in the 70's had a Stella. It was all-chrome and pretty high-end. It had a Nervar crankset and Mafac brakes (Competitions, I think, but not certain), and I don't remember what else because it's been a few decades since I last saw it.

Okay, this isn't all that helpful, but maybe it's a Stella.

I have a few random thots: the pentagon shaped stop was intended for a clamp with a flat bottom edge (like Simplex) and the Campy is a later addition made by the owner.

Sorry man, I should have mentioned that the Campagnolo components are stamped "Patent 72".... they could not have been added later......unless somebody had a complete set of NOS Neuvo Record derailleurs, pedals, cable clips, brackets, headset, etc....

The Super Corsa would have come stock w/ all of this but, the dropouts are wrong....

Can we definately rule out a SC built from scratch ???

I vote for a "Constructeur" also. I recently purchased "The Golden Age of Handbuilt Bicycles" by Jan Heine and your bike has a lot of features of a Singer, although I don't think it is. You should send an email to Mr. Heine at Vintage Bicycle Press www.vintagebicyclepress.com as he is incredibly interestested in constructeur bikes.

Good luck,

vjp

Well shucks folks, I just received this email from Jan Heine:

"Hi B,

I have no idea. It's nice, but the details aren't like those from a constructeur like Singer or Herse. For example, the brake cable housing hanger bridge between the seatstays is a bit crude. So I have no idea what it is, or what the "61" stamp could mean."

Best regards,

Jan Heine
Editor
Vintage Bicycle Press
c/o Il Vecchio Bicycles
140 Lakeside Ave #C
Seattle WA 98122
www.vintagebicyclepress.com

[QUOTE=bigwoo]
My favorite component? The rock scrapers that keep the tires free of debris


Those are Pelissier tire savers. They have little springs in them to keep them in contact with the tire. I don't let mine touch the tire because I don't like the sound they make. I just have them on the bike because I think they're a nice vintage French detail.

The way your stay ends are finished off at the dropouts is different than the way they're done on my Gitane, but that's about the only difference I can find. I'm not positive that yours is a Gitane, but I'd be willing to bet that it's French.

Maybe the original owner had a friend that owned a chrome shop.

Well, it throws some cold water on my theory, but a PO could still have found vintage parts to add at any time in the bikes life. I'm just throwing out the possibility that what we see now may not have been "as it left the maker's hands", including the finish. But if I had to bet money right now (and thankfully, I don't) I'd go with Dirtdrop's proposition that it's a Gitane TdF done as a custom order, and maybe as a show bike.

I'm sorry.... I just found 2 HUGE stamps on the inside of each rear dropout.
Please see the original description- 6 very strange stamps..... "7K"

Sure looks like my Mercier dunked in chrome. The hubs say 72 Normandy? That would be in and around the year your bike was made if those are original.

Sure looks like my Mercier dunked in chrome. The hubs say 72 Normandy?



The hubs simply say "Made in France- Approved 2-72"
I'm guessing that they were made by Normandy


By any chance, do either of the 2 guys who suggested Mercier have pics they could post??

Is this seatstay end treatment shown EXACTLY like your Tdf, Dirtdrop?

Not exactly, but is anything on a Gitane frame exactly like on any other Gitane frame?

The top of my seat lug is curved, while that one appears to be perfectly flat.

I agree that someone could have had a production bike chromed. Chroming wasn't so expensive before people started caring about poisoning the environment.

Could it be a TdF built during a shortage of Campagnolo dropout bits?

I have a Motobecane Grand Jubilee that had a similar day at the factory: The rear drops were the stock Campagnolo 1010s w/threaded eyelets, but instead of a matching pair of Campagnolo front drops (which I've seen on most any other Moto G.J.), a pair of repulsive, stamped steel drops with HUGE, unmanagable eyelets were used on the front fork.

Take care,

-Kurt

Not exactly, but is anything on a Gitane frame exactly like on any other Gitane frame?



I'm with you 101% on that Dd... you and I have mentioned Gitane consistancy in past posts and I believe we both agree that factor is one of their unique aspects...

Maybe a small bike shop just built a frame for a customer but man, cudak's dropout shortage post makes an excellent point....

But a TdF should not have Campy dropouts. Campy dropouts were spec'd for the Super Corsa only in the '70s. That's why I don't like my theory about the bike being built for a show. It's more likely that they would use their flagship model, the Super Corsa, rather than the common TdF.

But a TdF should not have Campy dropouts. Campy dropouts were spec'd for the Super Corsa only in the '70s. That's why I don't like my theory about the bike being built for a show. It's more likely that they would use their flagship model, the Super Corsa, rather than the common TdF.

Nobody said that the Simplex/Huret dropout combo would have been in place of Campagnolo dropouts, could have just as well replaced whatever was standard on the TdF.

-Kurt

Here's a thought and a question,
Given the similarities to the Gitane TdF were the TdF frames
fully chromed and then painted ? If so this would be a possiblity,

Going on Marty's idea I too wonder if the bike was originally painted and then stripped to the underlying chrome. While it could be the pics themselves some areas of the chrome don't look quite as smooth as a bike meant to be sold with a chrome finish would be.

Could just be the pics, my monitor, my eyes or a combo of all the above.

Would explain the absence of decals on an otherwise well preserved bike though.

Unfortunately, I have no idea what it is, other than really cool. Motobecanes are the only French bikes I've paid much attention to.


:beer:

Gosh, I'm really surprised by this....

A gentleman from the Gitane forum shot me an email:

"It's a beautiful cycle but I'm sorry, I dont think it's a Gitane. I've never known Gitane to stamp geometry info into the product...."

Going on Marty's idea I too wonder if the bike was originally painted and then stripped to the underlying chrome.

Didn't someone say that the TdFs were never fully chromed under the paint?



A gentleman from the Gitane forum shot me an email:

"It's a beautiful cycle but I'm sorry, I dont think it's a Gitane. I've never known Gitane to stamp geometry info into the product...."

If the geometry stampings are where they normally are, in the lugs, then for all we know, the lugs were from a different batch too. One would expect that of Gitane.

As crazy as it sounds, is there any chance Gitane might have had TdF production in more then one factory at one point, hence the differences?

All of the above are just wild theories...

-Kurt

Nobody said that the Simplex/Huret dropout combo would have been in place of Campagnolo dropouts, could have just as well replaced whatever was standard on the TdF.

-Kurt

I was reponding to this:

"Could it be a TdF built during a shortage of Campagnolo dropout bits?"
Maybe I'm just not following you, but it would make no difference to TdF production if there was a shortage of Campy dropout bits, since TdFs were all French.

Don't all TdFs have the geometry stamped on the head lug? I always assumed that it was put there by Bocama and Gitane just didn't bother to remove it.

Gitane paint was so bad that I think that anyone who owns a Gitane knows exactly what's under the paint and it's not chrome.

I have to take it back about TdFs being all French. I just now read about some that came through with Campy dropouts. They called them Super TdFs.

I guess we should start a process of elimination:

Mercier (I've never seen a rear cable stay on a Mercier, need photos please)
Gitane
Small, independent bicycle shop
Lesser-known Constructuer
Factory prank
"After hours" at the factory job
Need more time & info

Yeah, that makes a more believable story: the angle info is stamped by the lug maker (Bocama) and the builder didn't file it off. The dropouts don't match (Huret fork ends sub'ed) cause they ran short of the Simplex ends and had Hurets that day. The chroming might have been an undercoat for a "candy apple" finish, or maybe they just decalled over the naked chrome, but I also thought the detailing didn't look good enough for a "show bike" or a presentation special. it still smells more "Gitane" than any other French bike to me, but an unsual one for sure...I really want to see some Mercier pics! Those I HAVE seen don't look like this bike.

It sounds like one helluva ride. It's also a damn pretty bike, but I too doubt that it was chromed as a show or presentation piece. The area between the chainstays is a bit flawed. The physics of chrome plating make this area very difficult to properly plate, but it can be done, and probably would have been done on a show or presentation piece.

The dropout question muddies the waters a bit, but doesn't exactly rule anything out. Bicycle manufacturing is a business. Sometimes every business has to take a loss to make money. Substituting higher end dropouts would lose some money, but it may have simply been a way to get bikes out the door during a parts shortage caused by logistical problems.

I don't think that the mismatched dropouts mean anything. My TdF has mismatched dropouts, too. It was typical for Gitane to use whatever they has on hand. That may be true of some other makers, but Gitanes are known for it. I'm anxious to see some Mercier pictures. I'm not at all familiar with them.

I guess we should start a process of elimination:

Mercier (I've never seen a rear cable stay on a Mercier, need photos please)
Gitane
Small, independent bicycle shop
Lesser-known Constructuer
Factory prank
"After hours" at the factory job
Need more time & info

The Mercier suggestion comes from seeing a few in the area. Who would have thought more that one vintage french bike in the philly area. I just remeber that rear cable stay. Why I can remeber that and not balance my checkbook....but I am probably not alone in that on this forum! You could also check Classic Renedevous I think they have some pics. What kind of bike did I win?;)

Going on Marty's idea I too wonder if the bike was originally painted and then stripped to the underlying chrome. While it could be the pics themselves some areas of the chrome don't look quite as smooth as a bike meant to be sold with a chrome finish would be.

Could just be the pics, my monitor, my eyes or a combo of all the above.

Would explain the absence of decals on an otherwise well preserved bike though.

Unfortunately, I have no idea what it is, other than really cool. Motobecanes are the only French bikes I've paid much attention to.


:beer:


For what it's worth, the flash brings out the very worst of what I believe is 34 years worth of oxidation. The bike looks much more attractive to the naked eye in person and these oxidized areas arent nearly as pronounced.

I believe that Capt Bike and several others have mentioned the poor quality of French chrome jobs on their sites.
I also believe that there's no way anybody went to this much trouble for an undercoat/frame primer. None of my French bikes in the past or, now have had this caliber of chrome underneath.

I'm willing to set aside the 2 "72" stamps and the "61" as geometry but, the 2 fancy "7K" stamps on the INSIDE of the rear dropouts are strange to me.. Who can we ask about the stamps?? I believe that's how this can be figured out

The Mercier suggestion comes from seeing a few in the area. Who would have thought more that one vintage french bike in the philly area. I just remeber that rear cable stay. Why I can remeber that and not balance my checkbook....but I am probably not alone in that on this forum! You could also check Classic Renedevous I think they have some pics. What kind of bike did I win?;)

Unfortunately, a lot of their links to detailed pictures don't seem to be working. :(

The hubs simply say "Made in France- Approved 2-72"
I'm guessing that they were made by Normandy


By any chance, do either of the 2 guys who suggested Mercier have pics they could post??


I have a photo I will try to get you later tonight. (at home computer)