Classic & Vintage - Vintage bicycle buying for dummies

I've been looking around for a vintage 10 speed bike to add to my very meager collection of bikes. I do not know a great deal about brands, frames and components and need to compile a mental reference checklist on what to look for when I see a bike for sale.

What I think I know consists of this:
If I see a Reynolds sticker on the frame it should be a no-brainer.
If the bike is full of campy components it should be a no-brainer.
Front release hubs on the front and back are usually a good sign.
Suicide brake levers usually indicate a lesser bike.
A better saddle, such as a brooks, is a good sign.

Are the above items generally correct?
What else is there to add to the list?

Two weeks ago I came across a nice looking Peugot at a Goodwill for $14.95, but the frame was too small and I let it go. The only negative indicator on the bike were the suicide brake levers. Otherwise it had a beat up leather saddle, some sort of chrome molly frame, mafac brakes, a simplex derailuer and looked like it was in decent condition.

How do you know that Peugeot had a "chrome molly" frame? I don't think I've ever seen those words on a Peugeot frame. Assume nothing!

Do you know what forged dropouts look like? They're another thing to look for.

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/bik/206022359.html

Here's a decent mid-level 10-speed right here in the Twin Cities

I have held off calling the guy because I already have 2 Fujis. In his ad he says VALite and Chrome Moly but the bike is VALite which was Fuji's proprietary blend of Chrome Vanadium steel. My Fuji Supreme is made of the same stuff and it's a little heavier than Chrome Moly but still plenty light.

This bike has suicide levers but you know what? I love those things. You can always take them off.

As general rules, you're on the right track. Some knowledge of hierarchy would be helpful. For instance, there's quite a difference between a Campagnolo C-Record bike and one with Valentino Extra bits.

Tubulars are usually a good indicator of a high-end machine. Steel rims, generally speaking, appear on more utilitarian bikes -- unless you go back to the 1950s and earlier.

Ornate lugs is another good criterion, but not always.

Other obvious indications for a decent bike would be the presence of adjustment screws in the rear dropout, and the weight, of course.

I've started looking at the dropouts myself. This is a good example:

http://www.kalavinka-bikes.com/image/road/road_0506.jpg

Other obvious indications for a decent bike would be the presence of adjustment screws in the rear dropout, and the weight, of course.

I thought I had some decent bikes, but none of them have adjustment screws or provision for them. I guess I'll set them out by the curb.

I thought I had some decent bikes, but none of them have adjustment screws or provision for them. I guess I'll set them out by the curb.
+1: And also all the ones that have the safety brake levers.

What are forged dropouts anyway (besides beautiful)? Does that mean they are hand forged, rather than machine pressed? Hammered to change the properties of the steel?

What are forged dropouts anyway (besides beautiful)? Does that mean they are hand forged, rather than machine pressed? Hammered to change the properties of the steel?
From the efunda website:

"Forging is the process by which metal is heated and is shaped by plastic deformation by suitably applying compressive force. Usually the compressive force is in the form of hammer blows using a power hammer or a press.

Forging refines the grain structure and improves physical properties of the metal. With proper design, the grain flow can be oriented in the direction of principal stresses encountered in actual use. Grain flow is the direction of the pattern that the crystals take during plastic deformation. Physical properties (such as strength, ductility and toughness) are much better in a forging than in the base metal, which has, crystals randomly oriented."

My father, his brothers and their father owned Valley Forge in Irwindale, CA. They specialized in forging exotic metals, including titanium. Titanium was very exotic in the '60s.

I thought I had some decent bikes, but none of them have adjustment screws or provision for them. I guess I'll set them out by the curb.

My Schwinn Prelude has very nice forged dropouts that are very curiously minus threaded holes for adjusters. Columbus Tenax. Wouldn't throw it out.

-Kurt

Safety levers were ubiquitous. I've got some very good bikes that had safety levers. And this really depends on what you're looking for. If you want a really great, high-end bike, then you're looking for all these indicators. But there were a lot of vintage road bikes made that were mid-range that are still very good quality now. If you're only looking for high-end, then by all means, yes, go with a "Columbus" or "Ishiwata" sticker, reject anything that says "CrMo" or some variation, and turn your nose up at anything without full Campy. But if you're looking for a nice, reliable old roadie, then you might want to start delving into the nuances and hierarchies, as stated previously.

I have seen some Schwinn Paramounts with safety levers, aka turkey wings, not to mention stem mounted shifters. It was a disturbing sight, to be sure, but they DO exist.

..... if you're looking for a nice, reliable old roadie, then you might want to start delving into the nuances and hierarchies, as stated previously.

diving into dumpsters never hurts, either:D

My Schwinn Prelude has very nice forged dropouts that are very curiously minus threaded holes for adjusters. Columbus Tenax. Wouldn't throw it out.

-Kurt

Maybe I should start using smilies.

I picked up a lower-end Colnago that the owner had installed suicide levers on. I just popped them off and it was back to being gorgeous.

Here's a tip: You will find bikes in the dumpster behind the lbs, and at the U-Haul.

Helped a friend move, and when we returned the truck , I found a nice bike for his kid and a great set of antique croquet mallets, balls , etc., all in the original wood case! U-haul dumpsters in nice areas are like the poor-man's Antique Roadshow!

I didn't see it mentioned, so I will add that stem mounted shifters didn't usually come on the high end bikes. This isn't to say that every bike with stem mounted shifters, suicide levers and a lack of tubing sticker is worthless, but if you're looking for a general guideline, its a pretty good place to start.

Of course, pant protectors and pie-plate spoke protectors are usually indications of lower-end models also....though they can be found on some very decent bikes too.

I'm pretty sure that those protectors have been put on just about every rear wheel of mass-sold/distributed bikes since the 80s or earlier. Liability. Only thing you'd really know from those would be if they were absent: either a previous owner was knowledgeable and loving of his bike (and thus eliminated the pie plate), or the wheel was built by hand. So an absence of one will tell you a bunch, but the presence of one not necessarily (I have a set of nice Campy wheels with a big, shiny pie plate on it.)

Thanks for all the tips, these are all quite useful. The Craigslist bike is too large for me. My Trek 412 is a 24 inch frame and I would not want to go any larger than that.

How does one tell forged dropouts from non-forged dropouts? Is there a difference visually that is obvious to one as clueless as myself?

A year ago I passed on a NICE Trek and a NICE Schwinn I came across in a thrift store and am bound not to make that mistake again.

If you see a bike that looks decent, and it is for cheap, buy it and sort out whether it is a keeper later on. Otherwise, you will regret passing it up.

One point that been (surprisingly) passed on so far: The brand of the bike.

To a complete newbie, if the downtube says something like Raleigh, Trek, Schwinn, Peugeot, Gitane, Fuji or some other major weel-known brand, it's probably safe to consider. The majors didn't get that way by putting out lines of junk bikes. Of course, I'm limiting that comment to bicycle shop bikes, not stuff made to sell in a big bbox store.

If they've put on a sticker claiming a certain brand or type of frame tubing, it means you're looking at anything from absolutely excellent to a quality cheapie.

Once you come up against a name brand you don't recognize with no identifying stickers, then there's no substitute for research. Just the same, if it's in nice shape, fits you and is under $25.00, buy it. You can always turn it around, either whole or in parts, if it turns out you bought less than what you were looking for.

Syke
Deranged Few M/C

"If you see a bike that looks decent, and it is for cheap, buy it and sort out whether it is a keeper later on. Otherwise, you will regret passing it up."

You got that right! The Trek that I let get away haunts me, if nothing else I could have sold it on Craigslist and made a few $'s, maybe even a lot of $'s.

I thought I had some decent bikes, but none of them have adjustment screws or provision for them. I guess I'll set them out by the curb. :)

Don't worry too much about that. I know of at least one brand (guess which :) ) whose circa 1960 full-Reynolds framesets did NOT include forged dropouts, but they are consistently strong and reliable, anyway.

I thought I had some decent bikes, but none of them have adjustment screws or provision for them. I guess I'll set them out by the curb.


Let's say it mathematically: The presence of the screws is an adequate indicator for at least a middle-range road bike, but not a necessary one. I hope now you can agree with me :D

The only bike I have that doesn't have forged dropouts is a Raleigh Super Course. It has plain guage 531 in the main tubes only. It's also my lightest bike. The weight of the wheels and other components makes more difference than the weight of the frame, unless you're talking about a Schwinn Varsity.

Simplex had their own type of adjuster. Suntour used these, too:

http://thumb9.webshots.net/t/36/36/6/2/3/315660203Fxsfoq_th.jpg (http://community.webshots.com/photo/1315660203068014369Fxsfoq)

To the poster that mentioned the basic brand name bikes to look for, can anyone tell me what type of Italian bikes they'd consider? Guerciotti, Bianchi?

jman

To the poster that mentioned the basic brand name bikes to look for, can anyone tell me what type of Italian bikes they'd consider? Guerciotti, Bianchi?

jman

Legnano, Italvega, Masi, Cinelli, etc., etc.

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Italy/Italy.html

Ciocc, Basso, Colnago.

If you see a bike that looks decent, and it is for cheap, buy it and sort out whether it is a keeper later on. Otherwise, you will regret passing it up.

I think that you've summed up vintage bicycle buying for dummies (and everybody else).

After you buy it, deposit it into the deepest recesses of your garage, maybe throw a tarp over it. Then when your spouse trips over it looking for the garden shears, you say "What new bike? I've had that bike for years!"

If you see a bike that looks decent, and it is for cheap, buy it and sort out whether it is a keeper later on. Otherwise, you will regret passing it up.

So, so, soooo true. I passed up a $2 UO8 this year (needed a seatpost), and probably spent $100 on parts I could have scavenged

I thought I had some decent bikes, but none of them have adjustment screws or provision for them. I guess I'll set them out by the curb.

Yes, you'd better get those old clunkers out there tute sweet! Before doing so, please PM me w/ your address:D

Ok, here's what I look for. Keep in mind I'm interested only in European stuff, not Japanese (not that there's anything wrong with it, just not my thing):

Campagnolo dropouts; buy it!

Campagnolo components; buy it.

Alloy cotterless crank; buy it.

Chrome lugs and/or panels, forks; probably buy it.

Suicide front derailer; buy it.

Good leather seat; probably buy it.

Alloy bar and stem, probably buy it.

Any interesting components I haven't seen before, or rare ones, probably a buy.

Any potential bike I find I quickly weight the purchase price against the potential value of the pieces parted out. That way, if I decide its not for me, I know I can recover the cost AND maybe keep a few gems.

A few years ago I ended up buying an old French bike at a swapmeet. It stood outside the door all day with a 25 dollar sign on it. As I was going home, I said, ah, what the heck, the alloy crank is worth 50. at least. I later sold the bike untouched on ebay for over 400.

Cambio Corsa: buy it

:)

Don't worry too much about that. I know of at least one brand (guess which :) ) whose circa 1960 full-Reynolds framesets did NOT include forged dropouts, but they are consistently strong and reliable, anyway.


Campagnolo had flat stamped dropouts with no adjuster screws called Gran Sport, no reason to avoid those either! Integrated derailer hanger is a good clue, though back to the 50s not having one was not uncommon.

Here's a tip: You will find bikes in the dumpster behind the lbs, and at the U-Haul.

Helped a friend move, and when we returned the truck , I found a nice bike for his kid and a great set of antique croquet mallets, balls , etc., all in the original wood case! U-haul dumpsters in nice areas are like the poor-man's Antique Roadshow!


The problem I've found is that the Uhaul places don't seem to have dumpsters nearby. Do you mean truck rental places or self-storage places or both?

Do you go under cover of darkness or rummage through dumpsters in braod daylight. I'm not at all opposed to dumpster diving so any pointers would be great!

Why does the LBS throw bikes in the dumpster?

I think that you've summed up vintage bicycle buying for dummies (and everybody else).

That's also why I have 30 or so bikes. :D

The problem I've found is that the Uhaul places don't seem to have dumpsters nearby. Do you mean truck rental places or self-storage places or both?

Both. Daylight and permission is best. For you, the cops, and the rats.



Why does the LBS throw bikes in the dumpster?

Some customers leave bikes for repair and never come back. Into the dumpster they go. You will be both surprised and pleased at the results. A buddy of mine just recovered a fairly new MTB last week, took a pair of old cranks he had lying around, and now he has a MTB.

I think a good way for someone to study up on vintage bikes is by reading vintage bike literature... Pick up bike books and magazines which were period to the era that you're interested in. My interests are for vintage bikes of the '70s mostly, as that's what I was drooling over when I was in high school. I used to sit in the HS library and read all the bike books & magazines I could, then go down to the local high-end bike store (Carnevale's Bike Rack in Huntington Beach), and eyeball all the goodies I couldn't afford... Anyway, check out some older books & mags. You can find 'em on eBay. A very informative book from 1979 is called "The Custom Bicycle", and well worth seeking out. Other good ones are Sloan's "The Complete Book Of Bicycling", and there were several updates of it through the '70s.
Once you get more educated, you'll know how to "flick and listen" to know what quality frame tubes sound like, as well as how to ID different lug types, component grades and eras of manufacture, etc... I say read up first, hang out on vintage bike web sites, lurk on the CR list... You'll be an addict before too long. :)

Both. Daylight and permission is best. For you, the cops, and the rats.

Some customers leave bikes for repair and never come back. Into the dumpster they go. You will be both surprised and pleased at the results. A buddy of mine just recovered a fairly new MTB last week, took a pair of old cranks he had lying around, and now he has a MTB.

And I can really ask the LBS for permission to root through their dumpster? It seems that they would want me to buy stuff from them, not go through their trash. I feel strange at the very idea. Plus, the cute girl who works there would probably think I'm crazy...

Suicide front derailer


sorry, what is a suicide front derailleur?

Early front derailers did not have a cable to a lever on the down tube or handlebars. They had a lever that extended from the derailer up alongside the seat tube. To shift you had to reach between your legs, while pedaling, to move the lever. Not something you should do in the middle of a race without a lot of practice.

The problem I have with listing a bunch of standards (dropout adjuster screws, integrated derialleur hangers, whatever) is that I can pretty easily think of exceptions to almost any basic rule I would list. For example, some early Treks have no adjuster screws and I'm unlikely to pass on them; many Louison Bobets, Jeunets, and Gitanes at the high end lacked the integrated hanger; I've seen very nice old rides with suicide levers and gutripper shifters...

... Years of looking at old bikes have taught me a few tricks, though. Assess the frame first, as everything else can prolly be replaced. Carry a small adjustable wrench and allen keys so you can check for stuck stems and posts. Always check behind the head tube lugs for signs of crash damage...

... but then, don't dismiss a bike because of the frame. I bought what I believed was a very low end Panasonic or a Huffy (didn't keep the frame long), with obvious crash damage to the front end and a stuck post (comlete with a ham fisted attempt at removal). Reason? Someone had draped it with first generation Dura-Ace parts, all of which I removed. I threw the frame out; someone took it from my trash w/i three hours... hope they ain't riding it; the front end damage was pretty severe.

I agree with other guy. It's largely a process of edumacation. We all wind up with a couple regrets; mine are a decent little Stella and a Schwinn Sprint (the one with the cool bent seat tube) about my size, both of which I'd like to have back. On the other hand, I've discovered some really nice stuff. I'm currently semi-retired from trolling for bikes, though, at least until I finish up a pile of projects...

Learning where to look is often a key trick, as well.